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Offlinesnoot
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john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$
    #7930086 - 01/25/08 02:22 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

woahz :seeya:


I can't imagine that being to good of a thing, but at the same time I can't see it as being bad. I guess it has its +/-


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I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity.
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OfflineCoaster
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: snoot]
    #7930110 - 01/25/08 02:26 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

ya its easy for that spoiled floozy to say something like that
and totally fuck over small business owners


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Offlinesnoot
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Coaster]
    #7930161 - 01/25/08 02:38 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

I guess it doesn't matter, he's not getting the nomination anyhow


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I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity.
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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: snoot]
    #7930287 - 01/25/08 03:04 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Where it's bad is that employers have to charge more for products and services to cover the higher cost of paying for no skill labor. They also have to pay tax on what they pay you eating into their bottom line.

Who can blame corps for taking their business over seas to places like China, India or even Mexico where no skill labor cost them a lot less.

On the flip side, I understand the cost of living requires better then minimum wage. Inflation wouldn't get so far ahead of it, if the feds stopped pumping new money into the system.

It's typically the same people who want more money to keep up with the cost of living, that cry for more "money to be printed" and pumped into the system via welfare and "stimulus".

They are making things worse for themselves as they go along. They should be crying for the Fed to stop it, and let the corrections take place.


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7930379 - 01/25/08 03:25 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Hell, raise the minimum wage up to 30$ an hour, it won't matter when you're money is worth nothing.


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7932716 - 01/25/08 11:16 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Where it's bad is that employers have to charge more for products and services to cover the higher cost of paying for no skill labor.

Most businesses don't have to make up the difference by raising prices . They can just make less profit.


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

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OfflineDonkeyShell
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: carbonhoots]
    #7933188 - 01/26/08 01:08 AM (16 years, 7 days ago)

if minimum wage was increased every year to match the cost of living, it would be over 10$ an hour, but the old republican congress ignored the issue.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: carbonhoots]
    #7933277 - 01/26/08 01:22 AM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

carbonhoots said:
Where it's bad is that employers have to charge more for products and services to cover the higher cost of paying for no skill labor.

Most businesses don't have to make up the difference by raising prices . They can just make less profit.




They can-but they won't.

If an employer is forced by law to pay an employee more then they think a job is worth, based on who is willing to do it for less, they will make up the difference by raising their prices.

At least, that is how it works on planet earth.

If you have never done a payroll, let me explain a few things. Employees cost a business owner more money then what is in their pay check. Employers pay the same federal Income tax that you do on your check. Employers also pay for Workman's comp insurance ( Huge reason why many corps are going over seas-it's expensive) Employers also have to pay an extra tax for unemployment insurance. ( I won't even get into if they give you any benis. )

Where some of you think, you only cost your employer $7.00 an hour, because that is what you make before taxes, you are wrong.

Secondly, take a retail store owner who buys wholesale from American makers. Those wholesalers are also forced to raise their minimum wage and will raise their prices, forcing the retailer to raise theirs. Say they lease from a company that now has to pay their minimum wage staff more. They will up the rent on your lease to ccover their loss.

It gets ugly fast for business owners and the average minimum wage worker without a clue never sees any of this.

Great, you got a pay raise. Everything is going to start costing you more when you go to shop though. What have you really gained? The problem keeps getting worse. it use to be that a man could get a job out of highschool, buy a home car, get married and raise a family. Now a man out of highschool can't even cover the costs of living on his own renting. The more the feds keep pumping money into the system, which leads to inflation, which leads to calls for raising the minimum wage, things just end up getting worse for minimum wage workers.



It's very difficult to eek out a profit with a new business. Only 4 out of ten make it past their 4th year.

Raise the minimum wage more and mom and pops will have to raise prices or fail. Big Corpa and wholesale manufactures will be more motivated to move those jobs over seas.

We've seen this happening to disturbing degrees.

Two things happen every time the minimum wage gets bumped. More business go out of business, leading to more unemployment, and more American jobs are lost to over seas workers.

Leave it to a globalist like Edwards to propose such a thing.

There is only one practical solution to keeping minimum pay relative to cost of living. Tell the Feds to stop printing more money. The markets will correct themselves.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleBaeosistine
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7933834 - 01/26/08 07:08 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

All the business leaders made big complaints about the minimum wage when it was introduced in the UK 1998. However none of the concerns they voiced were realised, they was no redcution in employment.

Currently it is around $10 here and most people are happy with that.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Baeosistine]
    #7934751 - 01/26/08 12:23 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

We've raised it often in the U.S. Please site a source similar to what happened in England, for the American economy. Ours functions differently then yours does, primary difference relative here is that our Fed keeps printing more money to deal with economic slumps, falling markets, and to cover their ridiculous and out of control over budget spending.

They are the x factor here that keeps widening the gap between minimum wage and the cost of living. If they didn't interfere like they do, markets can raise minimum wages and prices and will keep a relative adjustment. Because they flood the system with more money, an additional inflation is incurred that small business and low wage earners can't keep up with. Big corpa , to stay competitive, ends up moving over seas where min wage labor is cheaper.

Our unemployment rate is up since 2000.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7934879 - 01/26/08 12:45 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

The Fed doesn't print money, the Treasury does.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7934976 - 01/26/08 01:04 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The Fed doesn't print money, the Treasury does.




At whose directions? The state governments or the Federal government?

What do you think of Edwards minimum wage increase proposal?


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7935094 - 01/26/08 01:24 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

*I* think its easy to make a push for sweeping reform when you don't have a chance in hell of winning anything...


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: carbonhoots]
    #7935131 - 01/26/08 01:31 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

carbonhoots said:
Where it's bad is that employers have to charge more for products and services to cover the higher cost of paying for no skill labor.

Most businesses don't have to make up the difference by raising prices . They can just make less profit.




Asking them to do that would have to be one of the dumbest things I could possibly imagine.

The moral of the story is to not work a minimum-wage job. I'm happy I'm never have to deal with this sort of shitty pay.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7935158 - 01/26/08 01:37 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

So by Fed you were not referring to the Federal Reserve?

I don't think there should be a federal minimum wage. Iowa isn't Brooklyn


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7935742 - 01/26/08 03:28 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
So by Fed you were not referring to the Federal Reserve?

I don't think there should be a federal minimum wage. Iowa isn't Brooklyn




Yes.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: snoot]
    #8711762 - 08/01/08 11:48 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

From http://hotair.com/archives/2008/08/01/unemployment-why-mccain-talks-about-economic-pain/ -

Quote:

The Bureau of Labor Statistics released their July numbers, and despite the mildly positive GDP growth announced yesterday, the rate rose again.  Unemployment has now risen to 5.7% as the economy lost 51,000 jobs.  The biggest jump in the rates came — again — from teen workers:

Quote:

The unemployment rate rose to 5.7 percent, and nonfarm payroll employment continued to trend down in July (-51,000), the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today. Employment continued to fall in construction, manufacturing, and several service-providing industries, while health care and mining continued to add jobs. Average hourly earnings rose by 6 cents, or 0.3 percent, over the month.

Both the number of unemployed persons (8.8 million) and the unemployment rate (5.7 percent) rose in July. Over the past 12 months, the number of unemployed persons has increased by 1.6 million, and the unemployment rate has risen by 1.0 percentage point.

Over the month, the unemployment rates for adult men (5.3 percent) and whites (5.1 percent) edged up while the rates for adult women (4.6 percent), blacks (9.7 percent), and Hispanics (7.4 percent) were little changed. The jobless rate for teenagers increased to 20.3 percent in July. The unemployment rate for Asians was 4.0 percent in July, not seasonally adjusted.




Unemployment among teens rose two full percentage points from June, and six full points from last year. The biggest change in that market, of course, came from the minimum-wage hike passed by Congress last year...




More at the link. Boldface by Phred.

This trend comes as no surprise to anyone who has even a modest understanding of basic economic principles. See these older threads, too - http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3422946 and http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/2541587#Post2541587



Phred


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Phred]
    #8711830 - 08/01/08 12:01 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I feel obligated to admonish John Edwards to take a firmer stand. A $9.50/hour minimum wage? Surely that will not suffice to raise America's desperately impoverished to the rank-and-file middle class. No, drastic times call for drastic measures, and as we are so blessed as to have John Edwards in our midst -- someone we can count upon to demand what is 'just', economic law be damned -- let us make as much use of him as we can.

John, on behalf of all Americans, please: Call for, nay, DEMAND the minimum wage be raised to $200/hour. If those fat-cat corporate CEOs thought they would be forever alone in getting paid so much to do so little, let us show them that the American people mean business. $200/hour minimum wage, let every fast-food employee, every toll-booth workers, and concession-stand operator get his fair share of America's riches.

Who's with me?


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Ancalagon]
    #8711974 - 08/01/08 12:31 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$

Great plan.  I love unemployment and inflation.  They are both really good for a recessive economy.  Next, we give everybody that is unemployed or not working a few thousand dollars in tax money that we take from companies that are making too much profit; hell, why stop there, lets just nationalize those companies, kill off civil liberties and any hint of privacy, and call ourselves The Communist States of Amerika!


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: snoot]
    #8711991 - 08/01/08 12:34 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

a living wage in this country is about double that amount..and with average hourly output well over $40..it wont cause inflation...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Annapurna1]
    #8712011 - 08/01/08 12:38 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

a living wage in this country is about double that amount




False.  Ive lived on less than double that amount my whole life.  I make $10 right now, and can afford luxuries like the internet.  Most of the world lives off of a few dollars worth of food a day, so the idea you need $20 an hour to live is ridiculous.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: snoot]
    #8712133 - 08/01/08 01:06 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Either way its injecting more currency into the market, which means increasing inflation.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #8712174 - 08/01/08 01:14 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Either way its injecting more currency into the market, which means increasing inflation.



How do you figure an increase in the mandated minimum wage injects more currency into the market?


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: DieCommie]
    #8712195 - 08/01/08 01:18 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

What would be the logical path for corporations to take if the minimum wage for legal workers does increase? 

Wouldn't they just have more incentive to hire illegal workers who will work for less, and/or ship more jobs overseas?


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Ancalagon]
    #8712247 - 08/01/08 01:28 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Either way its injecting more currency into the market, which means increasing inflation.



How do you figure an increase in the mandated minimum wage injects more currency into the market?




Hmm, good question, one i cant answer really, but if companies were forced to pay a minimum wage, wouldnt the employee costs be handed down to consumers? Resulting in higher costs for goods...


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #8712296 - 08/01/08 01:36 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Either way its injecting more currency into the market, which means increasing inflation.



How do you figure an increase in the mandated minimum wage injects more currency into the market?




Hmm, good question, one i cant answer really, but if companies were forced to pay a minimum wage, wouldnt the employee costs be handed down to consumers? Resulting in higher costs for goods...



Even if true, that doesn't account for your earlier claim that it will result in more currency circulating. Altogether, a higher minimum wage will result in some combination of higher prices on final goods, reduced profits, and higher unemployment. All result in a decrease in the living standards of the public at large.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Offlinezouden
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Ancalagon]
    #8713381 - 08/01/08 05:57 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I wanted to know how other countries handle their minimum wage. Australia was the first country to bring it in so I had a look there:
Quote:

On 8 July, the Australian Fair Pay Commission handed down an increase of $21.66 per week in the standard Federal Minimum Wage and in all Pay Scales (for employees on 38 hours per week).

Overview of increase for different wage rates:

    * the new Federal Minimum Wage rate will be increased by $0.57 per hour to $14.31 per hour
    * basic periodic rates of pay are increased by $0.57 per hour
    * an increase to the Special Federal Minimum Wage to $14.31 for employees with a disability who can work at full productive capacity
    * juniors, apprentices and trainees receive increases in the same way as the Commission's 2007 decision (e.g. in proportion to full adult rates in the relevant pay scale).

The decision takes effect from the first pay period on or after 1 October 2008.



$14.31 is probably similar to $9.50 when compensating for cost of living.

And no, the Australian economy hasn't collapsed as a a result of unemployed teenagers.


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #8713904 - 08/01/08 08:19 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Either way its injecting more currency into the market, which means increasing inflation.




not necessarily...hourly output is so far ahead of wage and operating costs combined (esp at minimum wage) that the increase could be taken out of that margin several times without rolling out the printing press...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Annapurna1]
    #8713938 - 08/01/08 08:31 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Either way its injecting more currency into the market, which means increasing inflation.




not necessarily...hourly output is so far ahead of wage and operating costs combined (esp at minimum wage) that the increase could be taken out of that margin several times without rolling out the printing press...



Can you substantiate this claim? I'd like to know how much more the marginal McDonalds worker is producing than is being paid.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Ancalagon]
    #8719257 - 08/03/08 10:51 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

It seems to me like the entire monetary system is working against the middle class that Edwards so desperatly wants to help.  The government should either get rid of this fiat currency bullshit or get rid of our taxes.


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No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
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Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8719356 - 08/03/08 11:26 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:
The government should either get rid of this fiat currency bullshit or get rid of our taxes.




Or?  :thumbdown:
And? :thumbup:

Federal income tax at least.  It goes hand in hand with the baseless dollar. 

Nothing is more savvy than the creation of artificial wealth for the redistribution of real wealth.  Elegant socialism.


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Edited by Minstrel (08/03/08 11:34 AM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Minstrel]
    #8719548 - 08/03/08 12:15 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

are you advocating we rob dick cheney?


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Minstrel]
    #8719938 - 08/03/08 02:09 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Well, clearly we need some form of revenue going to the government for social programs, but what I'm saying is that there's no reason for us to have to pay property tax, income tax, sales tax, etc. when the government could get all the money it will ever need from the inflation tax.  They could, and do, print up as much money as they would need for any project.

Taxation just seems to be present for redistribution of wealth, as you mentioned.

Preferably, I'd rather pay a reasonable amount of my wealth to taxes and not have to deal with a currency that is fully controlled by the govt and the Fed.  As anyone can see, they seem to fuck everything up.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
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which is itself based upon the mathematical
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Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8720039 - 08/03/08 02:45 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> clearly we need some form of revenue going to the government for social programs

Not if we get rid of social programs.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
    #8720114 - 08/03/08 03:09 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

that would be nice... you dont work, you dont eat.

I think we should call the new program Natural Selection


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8720149 - 08/03/08 03:20 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
that would be nice... you dont work, you dont eat.

I think we should call the new program Natural Selection




An oldie but goodie. 

The NY Times had a giant piece about hospitals "renditioning" illegal aliens back to their countries after initially treating them and stabilizing their condition.  Seems the lifelong rehab is quite expensive and the hospitals can't afford to provide it free of charge.  The nice man who wrote the article seemed to dwell on how bad the conditions were at rehab facilities back in the countries they had hired smugglers to get them out of.  That is truly unfortunate.  I think he should devote his entire life to helping pay for just one of these poor unfortunate criminals.  Instead of suggesting my government put a gun to my head and pillage my bank account to pay for it.  The punks already came out ahead in the deal, now they can get what every other unfortunate in the country that they belong in gets.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8720230 - 08/03/08 03:44 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Instead of suggesting my government put a gun to my head and pillage my bank account to pay for it.





A sign of life! 

:congrats:


--------------------


Edited by Minstrel (08/03/08 03:44 PM)


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8720231 - 08/03/08 03:44 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

America spends FAR more on defence than it does on social programs. I'd be complaining about my tax dollars being wasted in Iraq first.


--------------------
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
    #8720233 - 08/03/08 03:44 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Not if we get rid of social programs.




I also think that socialism is a terrible system, but do you like having roads to drive on?
Fire departments?
Police departments? (haha, maybe this isn't the best site to ask that question)
The Nuclear Regulatory Commission for regulating nuclear power in the country?

I hate big centralized government, but I do believe that it provides at least some useful services, which need to be subsidized through our taxes.

Quote:

America spends FAR more on defence than it does on social programs. I'd be complaining about my tax dollars being wasted in Iraq first.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:





--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


Edited by pothead_bob (08/03/08 03:46 PM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8720243 - 08/03/08 03:47 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:
Quote:

Not if we get rid of social programs.




I also think that socialism is a terrible system, but do you like having roads to drive on?
Fire departments?
Police departments? 





local tax dollars, lol

Quote:

zouden said:
America spends FAR more on defence than it does on social programs.





'defense' is currently a social program, we're sending bullion of dollars to thin the population and ready it to be a democratic welfare state


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: zouden]
    #8720290 - 08/03/08 04:00 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
America spends FAR more on defence than it does on social programs. I'd be complaining about my tax dollars being wasted in Iraq first.




Stunningly ignorant.
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/fed_budget-a.htm

Quote:

SOCIAL PROGRAM Spending, which consumes 56% of the budget.....
Defense is next at 20% of the budget.





Social programs consume nearly 3 times the amount of Defense.  Further, a great deal of defense spending would occur with or without Iraq.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8720341 - 08/03/08 04:17 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

local tax dollars, lol




That's what I'm saying.  You need some form of taxation.  I wasn't just talking about federal taxes.  Although, you'll still need some federal taxes, too, just not nearly as much as we pay now.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
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which is itself based upon the mathematical
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Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8720342 - 08/03/08 04:17 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Interesting, the figures I have are quite different to that. But I just checked wikipedia, and both sets of figures are different, though mine were definitely incorrect.
However the "War on Terror" is not covered by the Defence allocation of the budget. It's a special appropriation and it's approximately $115 billion, which means the Bush government is spending more money just on its War On Terror than the Department of Energy and federal research spending combined. If that was the other way around there'd be a lot less oil dependence already...


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: zouden]
    #8720350 - 08/03/08 04:20 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Even if only 20% of taxes go to defense, that's too much in my opinion.  Especially considering how much we pay in taxes.  The US should not only get the hell out of Iraq, but they should get our troops out of all the other countries we're stationed in.  Big money wasted.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
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which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
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Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8720358 - 08/03/08 04:21 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:
Quote:

local tax dollars, lol




That's what I'm saying.  You need some form of taxation.




theres taxes on goods manufactured, taxes on goods sold, taxes on
transporting and fuel... almost half my income is consumed in taxes


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8720373 - 08/03/08 04:25 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Don't forget about the inflation tax.  Hell, if you're rich and in the top tax bracket, you probably pay more than half your income in taxes.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
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Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8720385 - 08/03/08 04:30 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Just remember that the US still has lower taxes than most other countries :shrug:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: zouden]
    #8720391 - 08/03/08 04:33 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

it may seem that way on the surface but they tax us at both ends


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8720410 - 08/03/08 04:38 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

What can I say?  It's expensive to run an empire.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8720435 - 08/03/08 04:45 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Just say nothing.  It's better than making shit up.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8720454 - 08/03/08 04:57 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

And we don't have soldiers stationed in countries all over the world?

haha, okay.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8720474 - 08/03/08 05:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

That's what you call an empire?  What diminished expectations you have.  Not surprising but, still, somehow sad.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8720509 - 08/03/08 05:15 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

An empire (from the Latin "imperium", denoting military command within the ancient Roman government) is a state that extends dominion over populations distinct culturally and ethnically from the culture/ethnicity at the center of power. Scholars still debate about what exactly constitutes an empire, and other definitions may emphasize economic or political factors.

Like other states, an empire maintains its political structure at least partly by coercion. Land-based empires (such as the Mongol Empire or the Achaemenid Persia) tend to extend in a contiguous area; sea-borne empires, also known as thalassocracies (the Athenian, Portuguese and the British empires provide examples), may feature looser structures and more scattered territories.





Okay, let's see:

1. America annexed Texas, which belonged to Mexico.
2. America took California, Nevada, Utah and other states from Mexico after the Mexican-American War.
3. Spain was forced to cede control of Guam, Puerto Rico, and the Phillipines to the US after the Spanish American War.
4. America annexed the Panama Canal Zone in the early 1900's.

And I suppose you're going to say that the US doesn't push our belief system on other parts of the world, either?

Just what is your definition of an empire?


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
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Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8720546 - 08/03/08 05:24 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> Okay, let's see:

Comparing pre-WWII to post-WWII is kinda like comparing apples to oranges.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8720628 - 08/03/08 05:40 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:

Okay, let's see:

1. America annexed Texas, which belonged to Mexico.
2. America took California, Nevada, Utah and other states from Mexico after the Mexican-American War.
3. Spain was forced to cede control of Guam, Puerto Rico, and the Phillipines to the US after the Spanish American War.
4. America annexed the Panama Canal Zone in the early 1900's.




And just what does that have to do with having troops in other countries?  I'll help you with that quiz.  NOTHING.  Tell me again about our presence in the Canal Zone.  I seem to recall some adjustment there.  Things aren't quite the same in the Philippines either.
Quote:



And I suppose you're going to say that the US doesn't push our belief system on other parts of the world, either?




Oooooh pushing our beliefs.  And McDonalds.  What a bunch of hegemony
Quote:



Just what is your definition of an empire?




Eastern Europe for most of the second half of the twentieth century.  Now there was an empire.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
    #8720645 - 08/03/08 05:45 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Comparing pre-WWII to post-WWII is kinda like comparing apples to oranges.




The US still has control of Guam and Puerto Rico without them having all the rights and benefits of statehood.


--------------------
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which is itself based upon the mathematical
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8720666 - 08/03/08 05:51 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

And just what does that have to do with having troops in other countries?




I believe it's you who is arguing with me that America doesn't exhibit the traits of an empire.  So do you want me to prove my case or not? 

Quote:

me again about our presence in the Canal Zone.  I seem to recall some adjustment there




America had control of it from 1903 to 1979.  It's an example of how America exerted it's influence by taking control of a territory in another country.

Quote:

Oooooh pushing our beliefs.  And McDonalds.  What a bunch of hegemony




Militarily pushing our beliefs.  I thought that was obvious when I made that statement.  There's no need to be so cocky in your responses.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
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which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
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Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8720716 - 08/03/08 06:04 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:
Quote:

And just what does that have to do with having troops in other countries?




I believe it's you who is arguing with me that America doesn't exhibit the traits of an empire.  So do you want me to prove my case or not?




You're the one who brought up American troops in other countries as "proof" of Empire, then dropped it.  Probably because you realized it was a loser.  Instead you brought up other losers.  I can't wait to see the next loser.
Quote:

 

Quote:

me again about our presence in the Canal Zone.  I seem to recall some adjustment there




America had control of it from 1903 to 1979.  It's an example of how America exerted it's influence by taking control of a territory in another country.




Well, I didn;t have to wait long.  America fucking built it and then gave it to them.  Some imperial behavior.  Keep rippin' them bong hits.
Quote:



Quote:

Oooooh pushing our beliefs.  And McDonalds.  What a bunch of hegemony




Militarily pushing our beliefs.  I thought that was obvious when I made that statement.  There's no need to be so cocky in your responses.




Where do we militarily push our "beliefs"?


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8720844 - 08/03/08 06:30 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You're the one who brought up American troops in other countries as "proof" of Empire, then dropped it.  Probably because you realized it was a loser.  Instead you brought up other losers.  I can't wait to see the next loser.




I didn't drop it.  I made the point and moved on because you wanted more proof.  We have over 1 million servicemen deployed worldwide with military bases in 36 countries so that we can police the world.

Believe what you want to believe, but that, in my opinion, is a trait of an empire.

Quote:

Where do we militarily push our "beliefs"?




We enforce the survival of countires like Israel and South Korea. 

What about Iraq?  Didn't we say we were going there to bring "freedom" to them?  I'm not asking you if it's right or wrong.  It's us pushing our belief system onto a sovereign nation with military force.  Now we have had a military pressence there for the past 5 years.  What would you think if Chinese soldiers were standing on the streets in your town armed with assault rifles?


--------------------
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8720880 - 08/03/08 06:39 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Iraq was no longer sovereign after the first gulf war.  They were in violation of their surrender agreement and hence had forfeited sovereignty.  In no country do we have troops against the will of that country.

You think protecting our friends is Imperial?  You are quite absurd.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8721021 - 08/03/08 07:10 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I think you're misinformed in thinking Iraq wasn't a sovereign nation.  Just what was it then? 

Protecting our friends?  Ask the 100,000 to 1 million estimated Iraqi civilians that were killed in the Iraq War if we're their friends. 

Quote:

In no country do we have troops against the will of that country.




You're saying Iraq gave us permission to invade?  And I believe the Iraqi prime minister mentioned asking US troops to leave.  So we'll see if your theory holds any water in the coming months.

That's not the only example, as Ecuador never gave us permission to set up shop.

"Other opponents of the U.S. presence note that Ecuador’s Congress never considered or approved the base agreement, as the Ecuadorean Constitution requires."

http://www.fpif.org/briefs/vol9/v9n03latammil.html

The military bases in South America are more there for us to control resources and fight the War on Drugs... not protect the people.  Furthermore, troops stationed in bases aren't subject to local laws.  Don't you think this compromises the sovereignity of the countries where the bases are located?  At least a little imperialistic, I'd say, considering that we aren't playing by their rules when on their land.

Finally, just who does Germany, the UK, Spain, etc. need protecting from?


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
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Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8721117 - 08/03/08 07:36 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

All right, folks... this has strayed pretty far afield. Let's get back to the topic --

minimum wage.





Phred


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Phred]
    #8721285 - 08/03/08 08:14 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Iraq was no longer sovereign after the first gulf war.  They were in violation of their surrender agreement and hence had forfeited sovereignty.



How do you dream up this insanity?  This is utter nonsense and is absolutely untrue.  Please provide ANY sort of information that supports your ridiculous claim that Iraq ever surrendered their sovereignty.  In the meantime, I'll provide you, and everybody else here, with the UN resolution detailing the terms of the cease-fire...

UN Resolution 687 & UN Resolution 688

Quote:

Noting that Iraq and Kuwait, as independent sovereign States, signed at Baghdad on 4 October 1963 "Agreed Minutes Between the State of Kuwait and the Republic of Iraq Regarding the Restoration of Friendly Relations, Recognition and Related Matters"


Quote:

Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of Iraq and of all States in the area,



Finally, I'll leave you with a gem of wisdom brought to us by someone who should probably try taking his own advice..

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Just say nothing.  It's better than making shit up.




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OfflinePhred
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: thedefone]
    #8721715 - 08/03/08 09:42 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

All right, folks... this has strayed pretty far afield. Let's get back to the topic --

minimum wage.





Phred


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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8724211 - 08/04/08 01:05 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Zappaisgod, I think I've made it pretty clear with several points that at the very least prove that America exhibits some traits of an empire.  Phred is right that we shouldn't be straying so far from the topic at hand in this thread since others wouldn't be able to join in the debate on America's Imperialism.  If you still think America isn't empire-ish then I'm willing to agree to disagree. Otherwise, please start a thread on the topic and PM me and we can continue.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8724862 - 08/04/08 02:58 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

What part of "Let's get back to the topic --" do you not understand?  Pretty lame to toss one last jab out there and then hide behind the moderator.  Next time the moderator asks to get back on topic, don't bait; instead, follow your own advice and start a new thread.

For a second time:
Quote:

Let's get back to the topic --

minimum wage.




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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
    #8725688 - 08/04/08 05:56 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Haha, yeah okay. :rolleyes:

Anyways, I think it should be the states that set minimum wage as opposed to the federal government.  As one poster said, minimum wage in rural America isn't the same as in NYC.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
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Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8725804 - 08/04/08 06:25 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

An employee has an right to work for whatever he wants, and en employer has an right to offer whatever he wants.  If the government steps in and says Im not allowed to work or offer a low paying job, then the government is denying me my basic human right of choice in employment.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8725827 - 08/04/08 06:29 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

As one poster said, minimum wage in rural America isn't the same as in NYC.




What does that mean?  Somebody who is wealthy enough to enjoy the luxury of living in NYC has a right to more money than a poor person in the country?  That is absolutely horrible.  Makes me glad poor country people get subsidized with votes and representation to prevent such tyranny of the majority.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8725833 - 08/04/08 06:31 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:
Anyways, I think it should be the states that set minimum wage as opposed to the federal government.




the federal government has set a minimum, some states have exceeded and set state minimums


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: DieCommie]
    #8725837 - 08/04/08 06:31 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
and en employer has an right to offer whatever he wants.





unions, lol


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8725845 - 08/04/08 06:33 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Wow, that was some exemplary English on my part...

Anyway, I agree... Unions, lol


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: DieCommie]
    #8725914 - 08/04/08 06:48 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I wanted to pull an odiumjunkie and correct the whole thing and grade your posts...

anyway in the case of minimums I dont see an issue with it as
while prices are increasing pay rates need to as well otherwise
we're only increasing the profits for these corporations, not
all mind you but by far the vast majority, it's not like with
auto insurance where they made it mandatory and set maximums on
what companies could charge, of course then every company
charged that maximum


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8725938 - 08/04/08 06:53 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

What does that mean?




It means the cost of living is more in NYC than it is in most rural areas.  Obviously, people should get paid higher in NYC than in the sticks. 

Quote:

the federal government has set a minimum, some states have exceeded and set state minimums




And what if the fed sets minimum wage too high (as ridiculous as that sounds) for a rural area?  The state can't override and lower it.  I don't think wages could be one size fits all for the entire country.

If states had the power, the people would also have more power in chosing what they should get paid.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
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Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8725952 - 08/04/08 06:56 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Obviously, people should get paid higher in NYC than in the sticks. 




Typical elitism.  Not surprising considering your location...


What your plan boils down to is subsidizing the wealthy NYC residents to maintain their wealth, while allowing rural folks to stay relatively poor.  Travel is ultra cheap now days.  If you cant afford where you live, then you should move.  Nobody has a 'right' to live in an expensive area even though they dont have the cash.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: DieCommie]
    #8726021 - 08/04/08 07:12 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I live in the "sticks", so your assumption is a mile off.  Elitism... haha.  I guess you think there are no poor people in NYC, either.  They all drive Rolls Royces, right?

Ever heard of Harlem?

I have performed an internship near NYC.  Having a higher wage doesn't make you wealthier when you have to pay $400,000 for a small home on a small lot.

I do see where you're coming from, though, saying pay up or move.  Sort of, let the market decide.  I'm just saying, let the local areas decide what minimum wage should be instead of the federal governemnt.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


Edited by pothead_bob (08/04/08 07:18 PM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8726477 - 08/04/08 08:47 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:
And what if the fed sets minimum wage too high (as ridiculous as that sounds) for a rural area?  The state can't override and lower it.  I don't think wages could be one size fits all for the entire country.




not all of georgia is rural, we have a city called atlanta with
about 5 million people, the state sets the minimum wage at the
same rate the feds do, only problem is it's3x as expensive to
live in atlanta as it is in rural georgia, explain what too high
is, statistically the minimum wage has always been set well
below cost of living and it's increase under the inflation rate

Quote:

If states had the power, the people would also have more power in chosing what they should get paid.




people have a choice now, get an education earn a better living,
want unskilled wages, you dont need education other than
knowledge on how to flip a burger and what makes you believe
that people would have the choice if states had control, I'm
pretty sure it would be as it is now, corporations will have a
greater say than the people as to what the pay will be


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8726526 - 08/04/08 08:54 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:
  Having a higher wage doesn't make you wealthier when you have to pay $400,000 for a small home on a small lot.




what you're saying is the average NYC McDonalds employee can afford that $400k house on a postage stamp since there's no difference in the wealth and  once that house is paid for it no longer has a value... are you sure you know what wealth means?

Quote:

I'm just saying, let the local areas decide what minimum wage should be instead of the federal governemnt.





one of the cities near me worked out a deal with walmart and
home depot, neither pay taxes for the first 10 years to the
county or the city, a major source of revene and for some
strange reason they insisted that they put a cap on hourly
employees wages, a couple years ago while most HD employees were
earning $11-$12/hr, the people locally couldnt earn more than $10

yeah, your plan is a sound future to aid in the collapse of the economy


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Offlinezouden
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: DieCommie]
    #8726774 - 08/04/08 09:49 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
An employee has an right to work for whatever he wants, and en employer has an right to offer whatever he wants. 



Agreed. But I'll add a third statement: an employer should offer more than mere subsistence wage, if he can afford to.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: zouden]
    #8726796 - 08/04/08 09:55 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

...as should the employee do more than just the bare minimum while on the clock, if he is able to.

Bare minimum employees deserve bare minimum wages.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: DieCommie]
    #8727102 - 08/04/08 11:30 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

bare minimum employees dont deserve a job

I started a job at a sub entry level wage, in a month I was
given a raise, $1/hr, 2 months later I was given another raise
of $2/hr, 3 weeks later I was given $.50/hr, 3 months after that
I received another, in a single year from one employer I
received a total of 9 raises which more than doubled my starting pay.

I dont know bare minimum work but I've worked for people that
knew bare minimum pay and unless the minimum wage increased they
didnt give raises, they didnt give bonuses, they simply wanted
warm bodies to do some work while he built a new house and
purchased a plane on the companies dime

an employer that cant appreciate a dedicated hard working
employee, he deservs the fuckers that take a 10 minute break
ever 20 minutes, why should they care about his welfare if he
isnt concerned with theirs


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8727590 - 08/05/08 04:23 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

As a business owner, my problem with increases to minimum wage is that it boils down to a government mandated raise for my newest/least skilled employees.  Not only do I have to give my lower end staff a raise, but it is a slap in the face to my other employees that don't get a raise (but deserve one based upon their work ethic rather than their economic standing).  In effect, my non-minimum wage employees get an anti-raise; I have to raise prices, as does every other business owner, in order to afford the higher staff salaries, thus non-minimum wage employees are making the same while paying more for goods.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
    #8727612 - 08/05/08 04:44 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

That's an interesting perspective. It sounds as if the hardest bit is the change itself.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
    #8727619 - 08/05/08 04:47 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

generally when there's an increase in minimum wage, there's
already been several increases in prices, enough so that
purchasing food, fuel and even utilities is becoming a hardship,
exactly how would you expect that newest, least skilled employee
to make it to work each morning if he cant afford the drive, who
hasnt gone up on their pricing in the US at least 3 times in the
last year or made announcements that they would have a 20%
increase due to everyone elses pricing


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8727644 - 08/05/08 05:17 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> generally when there's an increase in minimum wage, there's already been several increases in prices

So what?  Increase in costs hit all of my employees the same.  Why should congress have the right to mandate pay raises based upon economic standing of my employees rather than the work ethic of my employees?  It boils down to congress buying votes at the expensive of my company!

> exactly how would you expect that newest, least skilled employee to make it to work each morning

The same way as always; hitching a ride with mom or dad.  My minimum wage employees are not here for a career, they are here for a part time job to earn money while getting experience to go along with their education.  Maybe I should start to charge them for the job experience they are gaining?  Seems only fair if I have to pay them more than they are worth.

If somebody is stuck in a minimum-wage job as a career path, then that is their problem, not mine (until congress decides to stick their nose into our affairs).  Why are we equating minimum wage to minimum salary needed to live comfortably?  Nowhere in the US Constitution do I see anything that says, "employers must pay their employees enough to live comfortably".

This should be a state issue, not a federal issue... but then, we get back to congress buying votes at the expense of my company.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
    #8727762 - 08/05/08 07:01 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
It boils down to congress buying votes at the expensive of my company!




is the federal government actually enforcing these minimum wage
laws or has it really been left up to the states since 3 states
pay less than, some have no minimum and dont follow federal law
in having employers pay the federal minimum

seems the federal minimum wage is just a suggestion

http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8727768 - 08/05/08 07:07 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

In the states with a lower or no minimum wage than the Federal minimum wage, the latter applies.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8727801 - 08/05/08 07:29 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

lower than federal doesnt really mean lower than federal?

Like the Federal wage and hour law, State law often exempts particular occupations or industries from the minimum labor standard generally applied to covered employment.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8727881 - 08/05/08 08:05 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

average NYC McDonalds employee




No, the average NYC Mcdonalds employee can't afford a $400,000 home... they rent a small box of an apartment for 4 times the price I pay for mine.  How much money do you get back when you leave your apartment? 

You're right when you say that a person that owns a $400,000 home is more wealthy, but how many people do you think actually pay their mortages off before they sell the house?  If your mortage is taking the bulk of your pay every month and then when you sell it you only have $150,000 paid off, you only get that $150,000 and you've lost more to interest servicing the debt.  Then consider that food is more expensive, parking is more expensive, electricity was more expensive when I was there.  I'm just saying that not all NYC residents are rich, and all country folks are dirt poor, which is what it sounded like DieCommie was saying.

Quote:

people have a choice now, get an education




Yeah, because it's that easy considering the cost of getting an education.  And just because you get one doesn't mean that you're going to be rich.  A lot of my friends getting out of college now are only starting at 24k.


Quote:

one of the cities near me worked out a deal with walmart and
home depot, neither pay taxes for the first 10 years to the
county or the city




So what's your point... WalMart is run by a bunch of scumbags, which is why I refuse to shop there.  It's also a reason that the government should be stepping in and making them pay their workers a reasonable wage.

Quote:

what makes you believe
that people would have the choice if states had control




Because there would be a higher constituent-to-representative ratio.  Getting your local government to listen to you is a hell of a lot easier than getting the federal government to listen to you.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
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Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8728060 - 08/05/08 09:09 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:
If your mortage is taking the bulk of your pay every month




then you mortgage lender deserves to be failing for allowing
you to enter into a loan in the first place and the borrower
would be an idiot for buying more house than he could afford


Quote:

Yeah, because it's that easy considering the cost of getting an education.  And just because you get one doesn't mean that you're going to be rich.  A lot of my friends getting out of college now are only starting at 24k.




public schools, the taxes are funding them, it's up to the
people attending to take advantage of it, it's up to them to
seek financing for education, there's low interest loans, grants
and other ways of paying for college and there's even trade
schools and community college, princeton isnt the only
institution that provides higher learning

Quote:

So what's your point...




my point is that government works for the big companies,
Chattanooga was to be the home of Coca Cola, the city said "no,
we dont want to be an industrial town" so they went to atlanta
DuPont opened a plant just outside of Chattanooga city limits,
they hired 700 people, the city annexed them, they shut down and
layed off the 700 they just hired, DuPont didnt want to pay the
city taxes, DuPont was annexed back out, they reopened
they bent over for the big corporations and took it in the butt,
most other cities are doing the same, walmart gets tax breaks
for each store they open, no local taxes for 10 years, after the
10 they shut it down and open a new one leaving a vacant building


Quote:

WalMart is run by a bunch of scumbags, which is why I refuse to shop there.  It's also a reason that the government should be stepping in and making them pay their workers a reasonable wage.




I wonder why this hasnt happened yet, does it seem like
corporate interests take the front while the interests of the
people are put to the back until an election year with a shitty
economy and then the token gesture to appease the people is no
more than a small increase in minimum wage that's still far
below the rate of inflation... seems the corporate interest is
in the drivers seat


Quote:


Because there would be a higher constituent-to-representative ratio.  Getting your local government to listen to you is a hell of a lot easier than getting the federal government to listen to you.




lol... and still the same number of people that sit and bitch
and do nothing, how long would the low pay rates last if the
employees organized and walked out, how would the stock holders
view it if they're losing money because of the drop in stock
prices due to a nation wide walkout, how long would you think it
would take to reopen the stores with new employees

it doesnt matter if the state or federal government is in
control of the minimum wage, as it stands the state has the
ability to increase it, why arent most of them already doing it?


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8728120 - 08/05/08 09:36 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

then you mortgage lender deserves to be failing




Haha, of course they do, but they just get bailouts sponsered by the rest of the country.

Quote:

princeton isnt the only
institution that provides higher learning




Public schools are not as cheap as you're making them out to be... at least no in all parts of the country.  And like I said, it's not guarenteed you're going to be making big bucks when you get out of school.  If a person has to pay the bills every month, or has mouths to feed, taking four years to get an education probably won't be on the top of their list.

Quote:

does it seem like
corporate interests take the front




Yes, you're absolutely right and it's because these companies hire lobbyists to go to Washington.  I'm saying when government power is distributed across the nation instead of centralized, it would be harder for companies to manipulate the government.  That's a reason why I say that smaller government leads to more say for the public.

Quote:

as it stands the state has the
ability to increase it, why arent most of them already doing it?




Because people don't take a big enough interest in their government.  I always say that.  People need to talk to their reps and make demands, not just vote them into office and then sit idly by the next 2 or 4 years.

Quote:


how long would the low pay rates last if the
employees organized and walked out




Not long at all, I think.  I wonder if something like this ever happened with Wal-Mart.  But you'd only be able to do this on a local level, most likely, because it would be way to difficult to shut them down nation-wide.  Especially when most of the people working at Wal-Mart are very dependent on their salaries and don't have much in the way of savings.

I don't know if you know this, but Wal-Mart is anti-union and they show propaganda when you're hired giving you reasons why unions are bad.  They're absolute cock-suckers at that establishment. 

I could agree that people should form unions to get things they want, but it only works if all or most people at the workplace want to go along with it.  Then there's the problem when unions get too big, garnish wages, force people to join, and end up getting paid off from companies to keep their mouths shut. 

I've heard that France has tons of protests all the time and I've also heard from French citizens that they lead a very laid back lifestyle.  I feel like if Americans would stop letting their government get away with the shit they get away with, these companies wouldn't be able to have so much authority and people would have better lifestyles.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
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Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8728970 - 08/05/08 01:09 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:
Public schools are not as cheap as you're making them out to be... at least no in all parts of the country.




paid for through property taxes? I know that's how it's handled
here and everyone that owns even a vacant piece of land pays
property taxes.


Quote:

And like I said, it's not guarenteed you're going to be making big bucks when you get out of school.  If a person has to pay the bills every month, or has mouths to feed, taking four years to get an education probably won't be on the top of their list.




there's no guarantee you'll even get a job when you get out of
school, there's na guarantee your wife wont run off with your
best friend and your bank account leaving you with 3 kids, 2
from her first marriage and there's no guarantee a swat team
wont kick your door in a kill you because they raided the wrong
house, what an education does is increase your chances of better
pay and a decent job


Quote:

Yes, you're absolutely right and it's because these companies hire lobbyists to go to Washington.  I'm saying when government power is distributed across the nation instead of centralized, it would be harder for companies to manipulate the government.  That's a reason why I say that smaller government leads to more say for the public.




except the flaw in that logic is local government is under less
scrutiny, big corporations have a lot more influence over Mr
county commissioner who's net worth is under $500k as opposed to
Mr. Rich Senator who's got $10million in his checking, it takes
much less to broker that tax deal on the local level which is
where it normally happens

Quote:

as it stands the state has the
ability to increase it, why arent most of them already doing it?




Because people don't take a big enough interest in their government.  I always say that.  People need to talk to their reps and make demands, not just vote them into office and then sit idly by the next 2 or 4 years.


Quote:

Quote:


how long would the low pay rates last if the
employees organized and walked out




Not long at all, I think.  I wonder if something like this ever happened with Wal-Mart.  But you'd only be able to do this on a local level, most likely, because it would be way to difficult to shut them down nation-wide.  Especially when most of the people working at Wal-Mart are very dependent on their salaries and don't have much in the way of savings.





that's how they keep you, that's how minimum wage has been
working to keep people from unionizing their work place to get
better benefits and pay, they give you enough that you can show
up for work every day but not enough that you can actually save
or invest towards a retirement, federally mandated minimum wage
is still heavily influenced by big corporations


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8729142 - 08/05/08 01:45 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paid for through property taxes?




Are we talking public high schools or colleges?  I'm not sure where you're coming from here.  I'm talking public colleges, which the one that I went to was around $12,000 a year or so, but I'm pretty sure they raised that number substantially since I got out.

Quote:

there's no guarantee you'll even get a job when you get out of
school




Yes, precisley.  And because it's not a guarentee, people that have very little or are later on in life and/or have a family probably wouldn't have college as an option if it's going to cost them like $50,000 in addition to all their bills during those 4 years.  This is my whole point where people that have limited skills or no skills should have the ability to make a living wage.  Not necessarily a wage to get rich on, but a living wage.  This is where a minimum wage comes in.  Or unions fighting for better wages, as you said.

Quote:

big corporations have a lot more influence over Mr
county commissioner




How many rich senators are there?  Under 100.  How many county comissioners are there?  I have no idea, but I'm sure many many more than there are senators.  So these big corps will have to pay off a lot more people to do business nationally. 

The point is, the people have to keep on their local officials and state officials so they don't get screwed, as I said.  If your local official is responsible for putting a cap on wages because mega-mart paid him off, then petition him.  Or throw a brick through his window with a threat taped on it at 3 AM.  Whatever.  But do you see what I'm saying?

You could try to keep your senator honest just as you would a state official, but he only gets one vote out of a hundred in the senate.  Then there's the house, which is much bigger.  It's harder to have a say on the national level.

Before I go any further with this, are you saying that the public is more represented, and democracy works better, when the government is centralized instead of smaller and spread out?

Quote:

that's how they keep you, that's how minimum wage has been
working to keep people from unionizing their work place to get
better benefits and pay




This does make sense.  However, considering that Wal-Mart pays like $7 per hour, I can't even imagine how people could make it on that when future savings are left out of the picture.  Especially when it seems like Wal-Mart rarely gives out full-time positions.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8729564 - 08/05/08 03:23 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:
Quote:

paid for through property taxes?




Are we talking public high schools or colleges? 




education starts well before college, do shitty through primary
school and highschool and it's not likely you'll see more than
the front doors of a college, regardless theres less expensive
alternatives to get a 2yr degree, get one in criminology and
you've got a guarantee of $36k/year in most locals and earnings
up to $80k/yr in about 10 years

Quote:

  Not necessarily a wage to get rich on, but a living wage.  This is where a minimum wage comes in.  Or unions fighting for better wages, as you said.





minimum wage isnt enough to sustain a family, it's barely enough
to keep one person in shelter and food, if a person cant take
$40 from their paycheck each week to bank then they arent
earning enough, on less than $300/week that's difficult to do
especially in rural areas where there is no public
transportation or larger counties where they've continually
voted out bussing, that adds greater expense because now a car
either with maintenence or payments has to be factored in and
with the addition of madatory insurance it can run from $100/mo
for liability on up to $500/mo for full coverage... where's the
minimum wage paycheck then


Quote:

So these big corps will have to pay off a lot more people to do business nationally. 




$20k payoff to 3-4 county commissioners in a county to sway a
vote, it only takes one man to make a difference in local government


Quote:

The point is, the people have to keep on their local officials and state officials so they don't get screwed, as I said.  If your local official is responsible for putting a cap on wages because mega-mart paid him off, then petition him.




one  of my county commissioners had a suspended license, he
drove 7 years without having it reinstated, he had no insurance
on his car and had a tag from another vehicle on the car, to get
out of the ticket he showed his county ID card, unfortunately he
wasnt in his home county... quite the little criminal he is
people have been more than vocal, demanding that he be dismissed
and guess what... the old boys network runs strong


Quote:

It's harder to have a say on the national level.




one work changes that... organization.

Quote:

are you saying that the public is more represented




I'm saying the public isnt represented on almost any level

Quote:

considering that Wal-Mart pays like $7 per hour, I can't even imagine how people could make it on that when future savings are left out of the picture. 





that's the problem, they cant and if they miss a few days of
work because they're part time and insurance isnt available,
they're fucked, missing 3 days can set them behind 4 months


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8729688 - 08/05/08 04:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

education starts well before college, do shitty through primary
school and highschool and it's not likely you'll see more than
the front doors of a college




Agreed, but I wasn't talking about high schools before.

Quote:

minimum wage isnt enough to sustain a family




Agreed, I never said it was enough to support a family - at least not in its current state.  I'm saying that the minimum wage should be a living wage.


Quote:

especially in rural areas where there is no public transportation




Exactly the reason why I said the feds shouldn't be setting minimum wage.  It's not a one-size-fits-all thing.  You brought up a good point about wages being different in rural as opposed to city regions.  I believe I mentioned this, too.  Maybe ontop of the state setting an appropriate wage, the cities should step in and review whether that's acceptable for the city region or not too.  I can go along with using unions, to a point, but I don't think they work in all cases. 

I can't comment on the story about your comissioner, since I don't know all the details, but I was primarily talking about political actions - decisions that politicians make that impact peoples' lives.  This is just an area where I'll agree to disagree with you, since I believe that people are better represented on a state level as opposed to a big centralized level.  That is, of course, if the states are allowed the powers to make decisions on behalf of their citizens.

So, to set the record straight with what we've accomplished in our discussion so far, you're saying:

To let the market decide on what the wage should be and have no minimum wage?

People should go to school if they desire higher wages or form a union?

Wal-Mart is this centurys version of the coal barons?


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8730689 - 08/05/08 07:22 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:
Exactly the reason why I said the feds shouldn't be setting minimum wage.  It's not a one-size-fits-all thing.  You brought up a good point about wages being different in rural as opposed to city regions.




obviously the states also set minimums as well, some of those
minimums drop below what the federal mins are, it doesnt matter
what part of a state you live in, if the minimum is 5.35/hr set
by the state it holds true across the state, regardless if you
live in podunk or the metropolis, the difference being is that
in the small town your earnings may go further regarding rent,
insurance and food, in the large cities the rent is normally a
lot higher as is insurance because of risk factors


Quote:

Maybe ontop of the state setting an appropriate wage, the cities should step in and review whether that's acceptable for the city region or not too.




if the major metropolitan areas and the state were to decide on
what equals a fair rate and keep it steady across the state, it
wouldnt be bad for anyone, it would allow those in outlying
areas to do better and those in the cities to get by without
having to worry so much but in most cases there's little
communication and the state follow suit with the feds

Quote:

This is just an area where I'll agree to disagree with you, since I believe that people are better represented on a state level as opposed to a big centralized level.  That is, of course, if the states are allowed the powers to make decisions on behalf of their citizens.




I've seen a dozen recall petitions because of shit like the
story mentioned before and things far worse like using county
money to remodel a home and county inmates doing the labor
not one of those petitions got noticed even with 60k signatures
in a county with 128k people, there's corruption at any level of
government and they help each other most of the time, it's the
old boys network and just working it's self deeper into the system

Quote:

To let the market decide on what the wage should be and have no minimum wage?

People should go to school if they desire higher wages or form a union?

Wal-Mart is this centurys version of the coal barons?




1. which market would decide, the market of labor or the job
market, if it's labor most people want the $60k pay check
if it's the employer, you'd probably be stuck with $3.35/hr
for the rest of your life

2. higher education gives you more marketable skills and
improves your earning potential but you have to seek out the
market where you can best apply your skills, you need to have
drive and ambition in order to reach your goals and when you see
a market that's in desperate need like nursing, it's not a bad
idea to consider that occupation as your earning potential is
even greater when they cant fill the jobs.

unions blow monkey balls but sometimes like in the instance of
walmart, it's not a bad idea, Sam Walton had his employees taken
care of, wasnt the highest paying job but the benefits were good
and the pay wasnt shitty, once he died the corporation was
restructured in order to maximize profits while screwing the
consumer, the vendors and the employees

3. firebomb all walmarts and lets pretend they never happened


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8730967 - 08/05/08 08:19 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

.


Edited by DieCommie (11/14/16 06:53 PM)


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8731066 - 08/05/08 08:42 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:
From Wikipedia:

Quote:

An empire (from the Latin "imperium", denoting military command within the ancient Roman government) is a state that extends dominion over populations distinct culturally and ethnically from the culture/ethnicity at the center of power. Scholars still debate about what exactly constitutes an empire, and other definitions may emphasize economic or political factors.

Like other states, an empire maintains its political structure at least partly by coercion. Land-based empires (such as the Mongol Empire or the Achaemenid Persia) tend to extend in a contiguous area; sea-borne empires, also known as thalassocracies (the Athenian, Portuguese and the British empires provide examples), may feature looser structures and more scattered territories.





Okay, let's see:

1. America annexed Texas, which belonged to Mexico.
2. America took California, Nevada, Utah and other states from Mexico after the Mexican-American War.
3. Spain was forced to cede control of Guam, Puerto Rico, and the Phillipines to the US after the Spanish American War.
4. America annexed the Panama Canal Zone in the early 1900's.

And I suppose you're going to say that the US doesn't push our belief system on other parts of the world, either?

Just what is your definition of an empire?




You entirely forgot Hawaii. The queen makes an attempt to rewrite a constitution without influence and provisions by America/European countries. Then we go in to protect the interests of our children's stolen sugar plantations... yoink! Mine now.

America is one long national-identity crisis. Are we Rome? Or Greece? Rome - no, Greece! - I mean Rome... is '300' on DVD yet?



~Monk


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: numonkei]
    #8731103 - 08/05/08 08:51 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:



The market is doing its job right now, and Americans have the highest standards of living in human history because of it.






Right, the market, NOT the technological advances, historical accidents and experiments, or formal regress of historical bigotries and political rule of monarchies, dictatorships, religious groups, or others.

The markets increased our standard of living? We have a league of people in this country who work harder than any other developed country to continue to be disappointed while the proverbial carrot on the stick moves further and further. Many of us, whether you write them off as not worth the paycheck, (which makes a lot of people when you consider that many employers standardize the entire work-routine to ensure employee interchangeability), work just as many hours at more tireless posts than the captains of industry. If most of our citizens actually DO earn enough for the luxuries incurred by the few, there is often no time to enjoy it.

Look at what the hedge-fund managers make, there was a great comparison in the Nation a few issues ago. These people on a bar graph, would extend about 13 feet high, where the highest paid politicians would only be about two inches high, and an average McDonald's worker about .5 of one millimeter.

Funny how these markets have done so much good for us. Maybe I should re-read Milton Friedman, because the Neitzche is simply not as depressing as the newspaper anymore.

I agree entirely with your statement that minimum-wage is a non-issue. It's like trying to fix the patch in the pipe after your house is leveled by a hurricane/tornado/volcano. But markets? They haven't helped our standard of living. If anything, the wealth distribution is now more tilted than at least 500 years of European history, and all the auxiliary benefits that the markets provide are insignificant, if ever seen, by the hardest-working majority.


~Monk


Edited by numonkei (08/05/08 09:00 PM)


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: numonkei]
    #8731156 - 08/05/08 09:04 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:



3. firebomb all walmarts and lets pretend they never happened







Firebomb them, but remember the moral... American pressure cookers are just better. :shrug:



~Monk


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: numonkei]
    #8731171 - 08/05/08 09:07 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

The rich may be richer, but this doesn't necessarily make the poor poorer. All it does is make the poor jealous.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: numonkei]
    #8731195 - 08/05/08 09:12 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Distribution of wealth has nothing to do with standard of living.  If the rich make 10x more than they make now, the poor can still afford the same stuff and still have the same standard of living.  This is because there is not a finite amount of wealth in the world.  Wealth can be, and is, created.  Political freedoms and economic freedom conspire together to increase everybody's standard of living; from the very poor to the very rich.

The majority of Americans have vast luxuries... refrigerators, microwaves, education, cars, computers, vacations, excess of clothes and shoes, alcohol, fast food, the list goes on.  Your gonna argue that it was better in europe 500 years ago because everybody was equally poor, and equally miserable?

Quote:


The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings.  The inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.





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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: DieCommie]
    #8731229 - 08/05/08 09:28 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
The market is doing its job right now, and Americans have the highest standards of living in human history because of it. 




Norway
Sweden
Canada
Belgium
Austrailia

they all have a better standard of living than the US, they all
also have a higher minimum wage than the US, some almost double
what the minimum in the US, our minimum wage isnt even on par
with the rate of inflation in ireland 2004 minimum wage was
over $11/hr US and it's a lower standard of living, in sweden
it's 12.50, in australia it's almost $14/hr, we're not even
close to being on par with most westernized countries and the
cost of living is around the same so exactly how do we have the
highest standard of living?


Quote:

Minimum wage is basically a pointless, "feel good" issue because its mostly teenage kids who earn minimum wage.




to be fair, inflation has outrun the living expenses of
those that are earning minimum wage, currently in the US it
should be around $12/hr in order to have kept up, it's fallen
behind by a gross amount, it's not a feel good issue, it's an
issue where americans are losing their asses, arent able to make
the basics any more with single parent households, people tell
me that a good paying job is $12/hr and by american standards it
is, but with the comparison to the cost of living, it's on par
where as many people are earning far less

Quote:

Only about 1% of American workers earn minimum wage (not counting tip employees who earn well over min. wage),




take the federal minimum wage, divide by 2, you've got the
earnings of the vast majority of tipped employees, if they make
no tips, sure it means they suck at their job but it also means
they arent making the $12+/hr you'd like to believe, their
employer has to make up for it and only pays the difference up
to minimum wage

Quote:

And this is using the American poverty line which is $10,000 to $20,000 per year compared to the global moderate poverty line of $700 per year.




unfortunately comparison of a country like the US to one like
uganda really doesnt work out well because of the costs of
living, I mean when's the last time you saw a 1br apartment go
for $30/mo

Quote:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4801540.stm
I work in the internet cafe here in Arusha. I spend 12 hours working and earn 70usd per month. I paid 30usd on a one-bedroom apartment and food expenses per month is like 30usd. So I am always ruining out of money every month. The government should do something about this.
Yussuf Allii, Arusha, Tanzania






Quote:

Even the In-N-Out burger shop near my place pays their kids $9/hr.




which probably isnt that far above the current minimum wage set
by the state just as employees at fast food places earn around
$6-$7/hr


Quote:

govt. housing, govt. subsidized health care and welfare.




lol... My mom had 4 kids, looked for subsidized housing, made
$3/yr too much to qualify, they wouldnt approve her for food
stamps or welfare to help her get by, again she still made just
a few dollars too much... only $6000 per year, people I do know
that did qualify for subsidized housing were put on a waiting
list, sometimes as long as 2 years because everyone else is
seeking the same and the vast majority of landlords will not
rent for section 8 housing

maybe you should get out and talk to people, learn what it's
really like and remember, it is the employer that set the pay
rate, he can always find a warm body to fill the position, the
employee has little say other than to complain about his wage


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: DieCommie]
    #8731261 - 08/05/08 09:38 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
The majority of Americans have vast luxuries... refrigerators, microwaves, education, cars, computers, vacations, excess of clothes and shoes, alcohol, fast food, the list goes on.




does that include the millions that used to have that stuff but
now cant even find work, have lost their house, their car are
living hand to mouth but still have a few bucks for alcohol so
they can still have incentive to beat their kids?


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8731281 - 08/05/08 09:44 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Norway
Sweden
Canada
Belgium
Austrailia




The difference between their standard of living and ours is negligible.  Many other countries are also practically tied with the US for standard of living... France, UK, Switzerland, Japan, S. Korea... they have all benefited from free markets.  (I assume you are using the UN metric for standard of living, which ranks things like free health care higher than low taxes.)


Quote:

take the federal minimum wage, divide by 2, you've got the
earnings of the vast majority of tipped employees, if they make
no tips, sure it means they suck at their job but it also means
they arent making the $12+/hr you'd like to believe, their
employer has to make up for it and only pays the difference up
to minimum wage




I have to say you dont know what your talking about here.  I worked in tip jobs for a decade as a server and a pizza driver.  My wife did the same as a server.  Also my brother, and her brother also in tip jobs, as well as half my class in school.  Nobody in a tip job makes makes anywhere close to minimum wage.  As a pizza driver I averaged $15 an hour.  At a shittie restaurant you make about the same.  At a good restaurant where alcohol is served you make well over $20 per hour.  These are all entry level jobs.  If you have experience and work somewhere like the cheesecake factory, you make over $30/hr.  Yea, they make min. wage if they dont get tipped, but that just doesnt happen.  Its good pay, but its hard work.  My body was more sore from working the night shift at IHOP than when I did construction in the 110 deg. heat.


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: DieCommie]
    #8731286 - 08/05/08 09:46 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

does that include the millions that used to have that stuff but
now cant even find work, have lost their house, their car are
living hand to mouth but still have a few bucks for alcohol so
they can still have incentive to beat their kids?




They should move to phoenix.  Its not luxurious, but places are desperate for workers (which dispels your "he can always find a warm body to fill the position" theory).  You can easily get over $10/hr here at entry level and rents are less than $500 a month.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: DieCommie]
    #8731291 - 08/05/08 09:46 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:



Your gonna argue that it was better in europe 500 years ago because everybody was equally poor, and equally miserable?






Hell no, not even close to better. These people threw feces out their window. You'd have to go to New Orleans to see this in the USA at this point.

But the distribution of wealth has reached a divide among the have's that is unprecedented in the modern world with all the advantages we have. While the guy down the street may have two toilets and a playstation, his counter part, the hedge-fund manager for example, has enough wealth that spending 8 million a day for every day for the rest of his/her life, could still retire with more than 10x most federal politicians will be able to expect to retire with.

The markets impede wealth as much as create it. When credit is given to someone who simply holds their name on the front of a bank building, while the brilliant inventor has his patented brain-child that changes the world repackaged and useless for economic viability, then there is a severe disconnect between the markets and the source of prosperity, be it relative or absolute.

Quote:



They should move to phoenix.






Is this assuming they can afford to drive ten miles to work? Much less than Phoenix? 10/hr means little when a dollar gets you so far as to be unable to afford to get to work.

And Milton Friedman is still an anti-person shitbird, whose theories should send Adam Smith doing cartwheels in his grave.



~Monk


Edited by numonkei (08/05/08 09:58 PM)


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: numonkei]
    #8731314 - 08/05/08 09:51 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

The hedgefund manager being that rich doesn't make the guy with the playstation any poorer.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Redstorm]
    #8731333 - 08/05/08 09:56 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

That's not the point. The point is the extreme wealth divide. The kind of divide that has never before been known to such extents in any sort of democratic or supposedly humanistic state.

The kind of wealth divide that makes dictators pissed off and jealous. They feel like the poor guy in comparison, but with no playstation.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: numonkei]
    #8731362 - 08/05/08 10:02 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Wrong, it is the point.

If it doesn't hurt the poorer party, what's the problem? Me being richer doesn't make you poorer. It's not an issue, end of story.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: DieCommie]
    #8731532 - 08/05/08 10:34 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
The difference between their standard of living and ours is negligible.  Many other countries are also practically tied with the US for standard of living... France, UK, Switzerland, Japan, S. Korea... they have all benefited from free markets.  (I assume you are using the UN metric for standard of living, which ranks things like free health care higher than low taxes.)




the standard of living is similar, the taxes are similar, in the
US lower income earners pay about 50-60% out in taxes, 20% just
in payroll alone, in canada it's around the same and they have
the free health care, it's really not that much different else
wherewe're number 6 and that takes into account for what ever
magic words you want to try tossing out.

but their minimum wages are higher by a significant amount

Quote:

I have to say you dont know what your talking about here.    Nobody in a tip job makes makes anywhere close to minimum wage.  As a pizza driver I averaged $15 an hour.




I spent 3 years tending bar, several years waiting tables, for
my local I know exactly what I'm talking about and you're right,
my payroll check reflected $2.13/hr, that didnt include tips but
as there's no federal minimum on tipping it really doesnt fall
into the equation.

what was your hourly rate delivering pizza? minimum wage plus tips?


Quote:

At a shittie restaurant you make about the same.  At a good restaurant where alcohol is served you make well over $20 per hour.  These are all entry level jobs.




busboy and food runner are entry level jobs, and here you are tossing around figures as if you know exactly hat every waiter in ever restaurant earns, you're guessing

20 years ago I pulled  $42/hr tending bar on the weekends, I
made an average of $17/hr through the week, damned good money
but a high volume bar in an upscale area, I worked 7 years as a
waiter in one of the shitty diners, I pulled in about $22/hr in
one location (most waitresses made around $14)and in another
location I was lucky to pull $22/night so I made the district
bonus me every week or I'd just move to a new location


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: DieCommie]
    #8731561 - 08/05/08 10:40 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
They should move to phoenix.  Its not luxurious, but places are desperate for workers (which dispels your "he can always find a warm body to fill the position" theory).  You can easily get over $10/hr here at entry level and rents are less than $500 a month.




you gotta have money to move, a cross country move is far more
costly than moving a few miles away, if yu're earnign $10/hr
here you wont be getting very far, in atlanta if you're earning
$10/hr you're maybe going to make rent as the average 2br
apartment is up to about $900/mo


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8732304 - 08/06/08 03:55 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> you gotta have money to move

Not much money.  I didn't have a dime when I moved out of the US.  I sold all of my possessions, except for my clothes, a few books, and a suitcase, purchased a plane ticket, and started a new life in a new country. 

I'm still waiting for somebody to explain to me why minimum wage should be equated to the minimum cost of living?

I'm also curious why we need minimum wage at all when we have unions?  Seems like one or the other should be adequate to protect the worker.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
    #8732311 - 08/06/08 04:05 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I would have thought that one way unions protect the worker is by the introduction of minimum wage laws.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: zouden]
    #8732321 - 08/06/08 04:18 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> I would have thought that one way unions protect the worker is by the introduction of minimum wage laws.

No, unions strike to protect workers rights.  When was the last time you saw a union worker making minimum wage. :rolleyes:


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
    #8732354 - 08/06/08 04:39 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Well, I guess unions would have been pretty instrumental in bringing in the minimum wage laws in the 19th century. That battle's been won but there are plenty more.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: zouden]
    #8732362 - 08/06/08 04:41 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> Well, I guess unions would have been pretty instrumental in bringing in the minimum wage laws in the 19th century.

Thus there is no longer any need for unions.  They were able to get labor laws passed to protect the worker and are no longer needed...  :smile:


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
    #8732374 - 08/06/08 04:48 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
I'm still waiting for somebody to explain to me why minimum wage should be equated to the minimum cost of living?




so we can abolish welfare and finally let those that dont work starve to death

Quote:

I'm also curious why we need minimum wage at all when we have unions?  Seems like one or the other should be adequate to protect the worker.




a great number of companies will find reason to get rid of you
if they hear talk about unions, I know of one that closed it's
doors, dismissed all it's employees and reopened under a new
name with new shitty pay... most just say 'we dont have any work
for ya, here's your papers'


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8732601 - 08/06/08 07:46 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Here's something interesting I read today pertaining to Wal-Mart.  Looks like they're encouraging their workers to vote against the democrats to prevent them from having to raise wages.  Good people.

Quote:

One of the day's best stories is The Wall Street Journal's report that Wal-Mart is telling its managers and supervisors that a presidential victory by Sen. Barack Obama could hurt the company, giving the labor movement new life and spurring unionizing efforts at the nation's largest retailer.

In recent weeks, thousands of Wal-Mart store managers and department heads have been summoned to mandatory meetings at which the retailer stresses the downside for workers if stores were to be unionized.

According to about a dozen Wal-Mart employees who attended such meetings in seven states, Wal-Mart executives claim that employees at unionized stores would have to pay hefty union dues while getting nothing in return, and may have to go on strike without compensation. Also, unionization could mean fewer jobs as labor costs rise....

Wal-Mart may be walking a fine legal line by holding meetings with its store department heads that link politics with a strong antiunion message. Federal election rules permit companies to advocate for specific political candidates to its executives, stockholders and salaried managers, but not to hourly employees. While store managers are on salary, department supervisors are hourly workers.





http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/08/walmart_to_workers_dems_will_h.html


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8734011 - 08/06/08 02:02 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> a great number of companies will find reason to get rid of you if they hear talk about unions

That would be illegal, at least in the US.

> I know of one that closed it's doors, dismissed all it's employees and reopened under a new name with new shitty pay...

I'm not sure if that is illegal or not, but regardless, it doesn't work with large companies.  They can shutdown a plant, but J&J isn't going to change their name and open a new plant under a different name.

> so we can abolish welfare and finally let those that dont work starve to death

Again, why is minimum wage equated to minimum cost of living?  I'm still waiting for a good reason why a sixteen year old flipping burgers should be paid enough to support a basic minimum lifestyle as if they were living on their own?

> Looks like (Wal-Mart is) encouraging their workers to vote against the democrats to prevent them from having to raise wages.  Good people.

Assuming that Wal-Mart will be forced to reduce staff in order to increase pay should the minimum wage go up, then are they not looking out for the best interests of their employees?  Or are you claiming that no job is better than a low paying job?

One last question... who forces people to stay in minimum wage paying jobs?  Why can't these people learn a skill or trade and start a career rather than bitching about how unfair life is because they aren't Bill Gates?  If I paid my staff minimum wage, they would laugh at me and leave for a new job... but then, my staff are skilled, and are worth more than minimum wage.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
    #8734151 - 08/06/08 02:29 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Assuming that Wal-Mart will be forced to reduce staff in order to increase pay should the minimum wage go up, then are they not looking out for the best interests of their employees?  Or are you claiming that no job is better than a low paying job?




Well, no matter who you think it's good for, it's illegal for them to tell their hourly workers who to vote for.  And they're clearly not looking out for their employees.  They're looking to keep their cost of operation low by getting a business friendly candidate in office.

Quote:

who forces people to stay in minimum wage paying jobs?  Why can't these people learn a skill or trade and start a career rather than bitching about how unfair life is because they aren't Bill Gates?  If I paid my staff minimum wage, they would laugh at me and leave for a new job... but then, my staff are skilled, and are worth more than minimum wage




Because, some people aren't skilled and don't have time to get skilled at the moment in their lives.  I just don't think it's as easy as you're making it sound.  Your staff may leave you, but if somebody is depending on a job to pay their heating bill, food bill, and to pay for prescription meds for their child, they're going to just tough it out. 

What if the economy is bad, like it is now?  Your options are limited.  Minimum wage is around to protect workers from being taken advantage of.  In the turn of the last century, coal miners were treated like slaves by the mine owners.  They were barely paid enough to survive, and were paid in company credits to buy overpriced goods at the company store.  That way, the coal baron could rape them twice.  Finally, unions stood up to them and stopped the abuse. 

Like somebody on here was saying, unions are probably the reason that minimum wage was developed in the first place.  They made workers' rights an issue.  But unions don't work out in every type of employment, so that's where minimum wage takes over.  It's like all the workers in the country belong to one big union.

Quote:

Again, why is minimum wage equated to minimum cost of living?




You have a point here with asking why a 16 year old should be paid a living wage, but I think it's clear that minimum wage is not a living wage.  It's more like a benchmark for hourly employers to start from.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
    #8734297 - 08/06/08 02:58 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> a great number of companies will find reason to get rid of you if they hear talk about unions

That would be illegal, at least in the US.




so is murder but it seems like everyone is doing that too,
seriously, some states are 'right to work' states, what it has
to do with you not having rights I dont know but the DOL in most
of these states says you can be fired for any reason, so the
setup goes.. you talk union shop, the company rat lets the
office know, suddenly your position no longer exists or that
time you were late 3 years ago has come back to haunt you.

I know first hand that the state sucks corporate cock

Quote:

> I know of one that closed it's doors, dismissed all it's employees and reopened under a new name with new shitty pay...

I'm not sure if that is illegal or not, but regardless, it doesn't work with large companies.  They can shutdown a plant, but J&J isn't going to change their name and open a new plant under a different name.




J&J may not shut down the whole company but it doest take much
for a 'restructuring', in most cases they just get rid of those
that talk about bringing in unions, any reason for termination
works, what's cheaper, paying part of the unemployment or paying
everyone union wages



Quote:

Again, why is minimum wage equated to minimum cost of living?  I'm still waiting for a good reason why a sixteen year old flipping burgers should be paid enough to support a basic minimum lifestyle as if they were living on their own?




why do you assume that everyone earning minimum wage is a kid
living at home with mommy, especially in todays US economy, to
be honest, if it takes accepting a minimum wage job to keep my
kids fed until something better comes along I'll do it, want my
arm in the nasty toilet up to the shoulder for $6/hr, well if
thats what it takes to keep money coming in, that's what I have
to do. Seriously, we have college grads competing with those
kids for the same burger flipping jobs


Quote:

Assuming that Wal-Mart will be forced to reduce staff in order to increase pay should the minimum wage go up, then are they not looking out for the best interests of their employees?




walmart isnt know for looking out for their employees, walmart
wont cut back on staffing, they'll cut hours for higher paid
employees and bring in new people that will work for minimum
wage, if they cut back on the staff they'd have to increase
hours for employees and have to pay overtime, walmart looks out
for walmart


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8734305 - 08/06/08 02:59 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> They're looking to keep their cost of operation low by getting a business friendly candidate in office.

I suspect you are correct, but... by getting a business friendly candidate in office, they help ensure the health of the company, which provides jobs that would otherwise be lost due to out of control rising costs for health care, minimum wage increase, tax increase, etc.

One other benefit of increasing minimum wage goes to the illegal aliens that are working off the books.  Minimum wage jobs will be lost to illegals that can be hired for a fraction of the cost. Viva Obama!

> Your options are limited.

No they aren't.  People get comfortable and don't wish to change, thus they use "my options are limited" as an excuse.  It is safe (comfortable) to stay where I am, hoping the government takes care of me, rather than leaving my comfort zone in order to improve my life and the well being of my family.

Edit:

> why do you assume that everyone earning minimum wage is a kid living at home with mommy

I'm not.  However, I don't consider minimum wage jobs to be career paths, except as stepping stones to positions of more responsibility (that also pay more).  As a middle aged adult, I might end up in a minimum wage job for a while, but only as long as it takes me to get back on my feet and reorient myself.  But if I, as a middle aged adult, have been working minimum wage jobs all my life, without having developed a skill or trade, then I deserve what I get.  If I lack the responsibility to learn a trade or skill, then I certainly lack the responsibility to raise a family or be living on my own.  I have no issue with states setting whatever minimum wage they feel is appropriate, but it shouldn't be mandated by the federal government.  States can do what they like, but the federal government wasn't formed to baby sit adults that refuse to grow up; we have Roosevelt to thank for that.


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Edited by Seuss (08/06/08 03:10 PM)


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
    #8734398 - 08/06/08 03:16 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

The problem with Wal-Mart is that they take advantage of the system just as much as poor people do.  I've seen it done before, where they'll keep a person right up near 40 hours a week, without actually giving them 40 so that they are not full time.  Then they don't have to give benefits. 

Then when workers ask about what they should do for health insurance, they let them konw that with their income, they'll qualify for state assistance.  That's one way they keep their prices low... they let the taxpayer pick up the tab for what they should be providing their employees.

Quote:

they help ensure the health of the company, which provides jobs that would otherwise be lost due to out of control rising costs for health care, minimum wage increase, tax increase, etc.





I dunno... I think the Walton family will still be able to eat with a little less profit.  They just seem like the greediest bunch of assholes around.  And they didn't even do shit, their grandfather did.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
    #8734651 - 08/06/08 04:04 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
As a middle aged adult, I might end up in a minimum wage job for a while, but only as long as it takes me to get back on my feet and reorient myself.




and how many years do you think that'll be at $6.55/hr or even at $8/hr, once you hit 50 your odds of good employment start dropping, few companies want to hire someone, train them and then have them retirement age as they're finally getting things going, you start hitting interviews (if you can get the time off from walmart during the week) and the interviewer starts saying "well, we'd really love to put you in but I feel you're over qualified" in plain english, 'we dont want to pay you what you're worth or have you croak on our sales floor'


Quote:

I have no issue with states setting whatever minimum wage they feel is appropriate, but it shouldn't be mandated by the federal government.




and in states like Georgia where they like to keep things as low as possible? where do we sign up to start hanging politicians until they see that minimum wage isnt enough to get by on, certainly not a living wage


Quote:

States can do what they like, but the federal government wasn't formed to baby sit adults that refuse to grow up; we have Roosevelt to thank for that.




he just borrowed the ideas from countries like Australia and New
Zealand and apparently it's not that bad an idea if 90% of the
world now has minimum wage laws, ultimately it's up to employers
to pay a living wage since even with states that have higher
than federal minimums still arent keeping up with inflation


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8734745 - 08/06/08 04:20 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

where do we sign up to start hanging politicians




Nowhere... just start hanging them.  They'll get the idea soon enough.


--------------------
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8737404 - 08/07/08 02:10 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

and how many years do you think that'll be at $6.55/hr or even at $8/hr, once you hit 50 your odds of good employment start dropping, few companies want to hire someone, train them and then have them retirement age as they're finally getting things going, you start hitting interviews (if you can get the time off from walmart during the week) and the interviewer starts saying "well, we'd really love to put you in but I feel you're over qualified" in plain english, 'we dont want to pay you what you're worth or have you croak on our sales floor'




Oh cry me a river. If people locked up in private, corporately owned and operated prisons in the US and people in nations all over the planet who have no choice but to work in sweatshops for almost no payment but with long, grueling hours, with the threat of not being able to eat or feed their families looming over their heads can work for just a few cents per hour, than certainly people can survive on $6.55 per hour. That's the good life baby!

And so what if a few corporate officers at the top of the pyramid make absurdly large profits and line their pockets with platinum plated blood diamonds at the expense and suffering of the masses? At least they've got some food on their plate.

Quote:

and in states like Georgia where they like to keep things as low as possible? where do we sign up to start hanging politicians until they see that minimum wage isnt enough to get by on, certainly not a living wage




Let 'em! That means more money for those at the top, which means there's more to trickle down and perhaps someday enter the pocket of some lucky person at the bottom. Besides, a higher minimum wage would inevitably result in fewer jobs being available. So it would actually be hurting people, in the US's already slightly slowed-down economy. What would the government do then? Start taxing people and corporations appropriately and using that money and perhaps some money from the ridiculously over-inflated "National Security" budget to create jobs and incentives to boost the economy back to healthy levels and feedback to create more and more stable and well-paying jobs?


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: dblaney]
    #8737448 - 08/07/08 02:31 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Start taxing people and corporations appropriately and using that money and perhaps some money from the ridiculously over-inflated "National Security" budget to create jobs and incentives to boost the economy back to healthy levels and feedback to create more and more stable and well-paying jobs?



That sounds like a good idea.

It also sounds like something Roosevelt would say...


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8737503 - 08/07/08 03:00 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
lower than federal doesnt really mean lower than federal?

Like the Federal wage and hour law, State law often exempts particular occupations or industries from the minimum labor standard generally applied to covered employment.




Yes it means what it says.  If the states minimum wage is lower than the federal wage, both laws are valid, and both may be enforced by whatever mechanism is legislated.

Same as guns legal at federal level and illegal at state level or any other difference between laws- both laws are valid.

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:

know exactly what I'm talking about and you're right,
my payroll check reflected $2.13/hr, that didnt include tips but
as there's no federal minimum on tipping it really doesnt fall
into the equation.





No, there's no minimum wage on tipping, cuz the minimum wage is paid by the employer.  Everyone has to be paid the higher of their wages plus tips or the non-tipped minimum wage.  Yes, you aren't sued by the feds when you don't tip your pizza guy, so what?


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: johnm214]
    #8739572 - 08/07/08 03:29 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

thanks john but I actually knew all that, sarcasm doesnt convey well over the intarwebz


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: dblaney]
    #8739584 - 08/07/08 03:32 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
people in nations all over the planet who have no choice but to work in sweatshops for almost no payment but with long, grueling hours, with the threat of not being able to eat or feed their families looming over their heads can work for just a few cents per hour, than certainly people can survive on $6.55 per hour. That's the good life baby!





lol... people all over the world dont live in america


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8744974 - 08/08/08 04:05 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
thanks john but I actually knew all that, sarcasm doesnt convey well over the intarwebz




oh well, it made me feel all educated on minimum wages...

which I should be considering the apparent demand for someone with my skill set in this area that doesn't have his degree yet :foreheadslap:


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: johnm214]
    #8746482 - 08/08/08 09:29 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

damn... you make minimum wage?

I wish I could earn that in Ga


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8752047 - 08/10/08 08:10 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

yep life is good working for jack squat at a university doing the same work your boss does for 4 times the pay.

But the 'experience' is the real benifit, so tehy tell me.

Come on up, we'll find you a job.  Bring the rabbit, I don't know how long his record is, but they usually don't do background checks.


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: johnm214]
    #8752071 - 08/10/08 08:23 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I've paid out almost $70k to be able to work this year


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8752104 - 08/10/08 08:36 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

You run your own buisness or what?  Heavy permits?  Taxes?


You like zappa and are a wealthy industrialist that looks like the monopoly man?


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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: johnm214]
    #8752112 - 08/10/08 08:43 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I'm a farmer, the last 4 years have been bad, 3 consectuve years
of summer drought, late frost last year in addition to a lack of
rain, hundreds of fruit trees that didnt make it through the
summer regardless of my attempts at getting water to them

this year I've been running irrigation and preparing to set up
green houses, the largest expenditure was the barn, things are
looking up, it'll still be another 5 before I see any actual income


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