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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
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Do you think there should be a minimum wage?
#7403643 - 09/13/07 02:50 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Where I'm from most people make more than the minimum wage even in jobs such as mcdonalds since there is a shortage of people. It seems almost communist that no matter what the job a person should get a minimum amount of money per hour.
Do you think market forces and availability of workers should drive the minimum wage or do you think the government should and why?
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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I'm a bit torn on this issue. If pushed, I think I support minimum wage, but it should be tied to the GDP (or a similar metric) rather than some magical number that congress dishes out before an election to try and bribe voters. I understand the argument for market forces and availability of workers driving wages, but I don't see this as a free market; people (in general) have to work to live. Because of this, without protection, an employer can set an arbitrary low wage knowing that his employees really have no choice in the matter... they either take what is offered or they starve.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Seuss]
#7404020 - 09/13/07 08:10 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Precisely... Most employers might pay more than the minimum wage, but that wage would likely be lower if the minimum wage was not where it was.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Not in the current economic climate, no I dont think we need one. But it doesnt really matter, as there are lots of corporations that are hiring at above minimum wage. Anybody (here in phoenix) can go get a job with no skill at $10 at least, so if the min. wage is $5 or $7 doesnt make a difference.
I can understand why it started though... In a climate where there are more workers then jobs, and where there is only one factory per town to work in
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: DieCommie]
#7404128 - 09/13/07 08:54 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah but in such a climate wouldnt a lot of people move to areas where workers were in demand more?
It might actually cut down on unemployment because wages would not be held artificially high were there are too few jobs or too many people or just plain depressed areas.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?



Registered: 11/08/02
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mobility isn't free and if you're already hurting it's not always easy to move to the next town where you can get work.
that being said, I think the minimum wage laws are no more than politicians pandering to a public unable to grasp simple economic principles.
DEY TOOK URRR JEBS
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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wilshire
free radical


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absolutely not.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: wilshire]
#7405164 - 09/13/07 05:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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> absolutely not.
Please elaborate. I'm on the fence, so to speak, on this issue and would love to hear opposing arguments. One bit that I left out of my original post is that I do not support both minimum wage and unions, and in my mind, unions (employee blackmail) are the more harmful of the two.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Seuss]
#7405222 - 09/13/07 05:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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No, their only purpose is political since many unions have wages tied to the minimum wage. Anyway, the idea itself is stupid; if someone wants to work for a certain wage why should the government prevent them.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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allreadyused
The Liquor



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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: d33p]
#7405730 - 09/13/07 06:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I live in PA and the minimum wage here just got bumped up to $7.15/hr. As for DieCommie who said in Pheonix anybody can get a $10/hr job. Where I live your lucky if you can find that. The majority of the jobs are between the new state minimum wage $7.15 and $8.50/hr and no benefits. My Idea for the minimum wage is it should be adjusted every year to go along with inflation.
-------------------- Everything I say is for entertainment. Fuck the ASPCA
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: allreadyused]
#7405848 - 09/13/07 07:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The majority of the jobs are between the new state minimum wage $7.15 and $8.50/hr and no benefits.
do you mean the majority of jobs that require no specialized skills, training, knowledge, or education?
most of the people i know that work in skilled trades, and i'm talking blue collar here - no college, just working hard and paying attention - make at least $20 an hour.
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Seuss]
#7405864 - 09/13/07 07:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Please elaborate.
there's no reason for the government to get involved in the price of labor. why should there be a minimum wage?
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KingOftheThing
the cool fool



Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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a minimum wage protects the worker form being taken advantage of. see a coporation is looking to pay the people at the bottom as little as they can while pocketing as much money for the people at the to.
corporate execs pay themselves insane salaries and bonuses while paying the people who make them rich disgustingly low wages. they pay people who work full-time barely enough to even live and don't even provide medical coverage.
look to the shitty conditions of the early 1900s and see how corporations treated people.
look at the shit happening in 3rd world countries where american corporations actually get in with corrupt governments so they can be assured no minimum wage will ever happen. you should have read this book i checked out on the subject. its fucking disgusting what our multi-nationals do to people.
see these horrible, oppressive dictatorships make brochures to lure corps to build factories inside their countries (funny how bush said we had to topple saddam because he was a horrible dictator when we LOVe to deal with guys 10x worse than Hussein just because they're friendly).anyway these brochures contain pictures of a country's people, articles extolling the hard working nature, and assurance that labor unions are strictly forbidden.
so the corporations bring in their factories. the governments are so corrupt they ensure the wealth is only in the hands of a very few , mostly government officials. so the people become soooo fucking poor the only choice they have to to go into these factories. they are forced to work insanely long days, of course this isnt restrictions so its 14-18 hours. the are paid 10cents a day, maybe less, so they cant afford any housing. they are only able to afford housing provided provided by the corporations. this housing is usually giant disgusting, rat infested, leaky, smelly, cramped corporate dormitories. usually no running water, no sewers and no electricity. which of course the company charges these workers to live in. the only food they can afford is served by the company and is about as quality as prison gruel.
the workers are in such horrible, unsafe conditions, injury and death is common. the corporations dont give a fuck, much like they didnt give a fuck in the USA, early in the 20th century. even the workers who arent directly injured or maimed are usless by the age of 30. they have been working since childhood and have horrible joint problems, arthritis and breathing conditions. working conditions are absolutely fucking atrocious.
the worst part is the murder. there have been SOOOOOOOOOOO many documented cases of corporate and government homicide. people who talk of labor unions or are heard talking bad about the company often disapear and never heard from again. in one case i read a man who was working on a union was chopped up and thrown by a door so people saw him as they came to work.
its really insane what corporations will do if they arent kept in line. they dont care about anything, only the bottom line and the wealth of very few. whats funny is this isnt about just being well off, its about making few people obscenely wealthy...people collecting salaries of 25 million per year and up...being supported by 100s of 3rd world workers whose combined salaries for the year are less than the CEO makes in a weeks.
we are so lucky our government protects us from out corporations.
(its scary to think of mainstream USA companies actually being responsible for murder overseas. dont be fooled though, it happens, constantly. its such a wonder so many people dont like the USA... )
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque


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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: KingOftheThing]
#7406097 - 09/13/07 08:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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to noone in particular, with the advent of undocumented workers(aliens) and their exponentiaitng abundance, don't you think it ai a good thing for documented workers to be able to counbt on atleast a certain amount of money eveery hour?
-------------------- Asshole
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: KingOftheThing]
#7406161 - 09/13/07 08:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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a minimum wage protects the worker form being taken advantage of. see a coporation is looking to pay the people at the bottom as little as they can while pocketing as much money for the people at the to.
they are looking to get labor at its market value. asking them to pay any more than what labor is worth on the market is asking charity of them - a handout. if some people do need, and are justified in receiving, a handout, why not cut the minimum wage bullshit and give them their subsidy directly?
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KingOftheThing
the cool fool



Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: wilshire]
#7406196 - 09/13/07 08:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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who sets the market value?
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#7406245 - 09/13/07 08:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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don't you think it ai a good thing for documented workers to be able to counbt on atleast a certain amount of money eveery hour?
i think it would be good if i made $100 an hour. i think it would be good if we were all completely free from material want. what's your point? of course it would be good. can the government gaurantee that? no, it can't.
you can't solve poverty by just telling employers to pay poor people more money. that is the most moronic and simplistic fix i can think of. if it worked, you could just mandate $100 an hour as the national minimum wage and everyone would be rich. it doesn't work that way, because what you get is unemployment.
the cost of increasing the minimum wage is unemployment. unemployment among the lowest earners. then those people go on welfare anyway.
i think, and even socialists must agree, that it's better for individuals, in terms of their mental health and self-esteem, to hold a job, even a very low paying one, and recieve a government income subsidy, than to be unemployed and totally reliant on government checks. it's better for society too, because there is less crime committed by idle unemployed people and less of a permanently welfare dependent subculture. it has its drawbacks too, but it's better than a minimum wage.
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: KingOftheThing]
#7406250 - 09/13/07 08:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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who sets the market value?
supply and demand.
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque


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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: wilshire]
#7406365 - 09/13/07 09:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Actually the government does guarantee that you make a certain amount an hour, its called the minimum wage. It is also good in providing a standard for the entry level worker to expect and make. Form there the market value of labor can only get higher. tell me what is wrong with that?
no one said set it at an unreasonable 100 dollars an hour. It seems your answer was more emotional than thought out.
-------------------- Asshole
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KingOftheThing
the cool fool



Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: wilshire]
#7406923 - 09/13/07 10:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: who sets the market value?
supply and demand.
people dont have the option to not work so if corporations were to agree amongst themselves to pay like shit people couldnt just not work to force wages higher
free market was in effect in the early 20th century. it didnt work for 98% of americans. sure 2% got filthy fucking rich, but everyone else got fucked. before the government stepped in to help workers, and before labor unions. the corporations abused the free market. they had unfair wages, insanely long hours, unsafe working conditions, child labor, no health care...some workers were only paid in fake money that could only be spent at the general store inside their factory. the stores would sell household items and food...clothes, shoes, the workers just put their fake bucks back into the corporation.
corporations are for some reason evil fucks by nature. they wouldnt do anything for their workers unless forced. govt workplace restrictions have been responsible for 8hr day, overtime, vacation time, healthcare, lunch breaks, etc... thank government regulation for everything from safer machines in factories to ergonomic chairs and keyboards.
see your whole free market, supply and demand thing is ridiculous. if there were no restrictions, its been proven coporations will even knowingly produce unsafe shit for the public. the market place deciding is really dumb. so lets say some corp builds cribs that cut babies heads off. ok it would hit the news and people wouldnt buy from them...however why should babies have to die?? woudlnt it be smarter to have some government oversight and safety standards the corps are forced to conform to?? yes it would...
what about unsafe work enviroments?? should a bunch of guys have to get their arms ripped off before everyone in the marketplace decides its not the best place to work?? or isnt it smarter for the govt to have oversight of workplace safety?? yes it is.
lastly for the market place to decide in regards to not buying from companies who produce unsafe products or provide poor working conditions, word would have to get out. how would word get out?? the media?? the media is owned by fucking corporations!!! not just media corporations either! media outlets are being sucked up by giant multinationals who make all kinds of shit.
if GE made some lightbulbs that were blowing people up, do you think ud hear about it on NBC news?? you couldnt even count on other outlets reporting it, shit GE has mad advertising dollars. new outlets already ignore some stories that would hurt advertisers.
so whats the answer?? a free market and govt controlled news?? i think not
the corporate world are no different than organized crime. they will do anything to make a buck. they dont give a fuck about you or your family. im glad the government at least has some control over these corps. there are a few ground rules.
shit and what about the happiness of a person and the human spirit?? conservatives are always babbling about work..it seems they think you should be working 24/7 at some meaningless dogshit job. its why conservatives are such grumpy, funless people.
look at us compared to france..they have a better minimum wage, better benefits and get a mandatory 3 months vacation a year. they also have less depression, less suicide and a generally happier population. america is one of the most overworked countries in the world. its only getting worse too, stores are opening longer hours and more days. they are expecting more work from people for less pay. its fucked up that corporate level salaries are skyrocketing while employee pay is falling or staying level. ive began to ramble...the bottom line is, the corporate world / corporate culture in this country is just disgustingly fucked up. i hate having to toil in a corporate enviroment to make a living...no choice though
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