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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #7407403 - 09/14/07 01:48 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You sell high interest loans to people with bad credit. I don't know if you still do that or not but that's fucking evil.

I think what corporations such as wal mart are doing in other countries is improving the lives of others. They create jobs where there were none before and people take those jobs because they actually improve their lives.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7407750 - 09/14/07 05:06 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

> there's no reason for the government to get involved in the price of labor. why should there be a minimum wage?

When somebody has no job and has a family to feed, they can find themselves in a situation where they have to take what is offered, or starve, because there is no other choice. I don't know how to articulate this, so I will give an example... from the prospective employer to the applicant: "I see you really need a job. Normally we would pay $10 an hour, but since you are desperate and hungry, the job is yours for $4 an hour. Take it or leave it."

Donno... the more I try to argue this, the more difficult time I have with it. Every bit of me that doesn't like government getting involved in peoples lives is telling me that the government should keep it's hands off of this and let employers decide how much they are willing to pay somebody to work for them. At the same time, I don't see any harm, and I do see a lot of good, coming from a reasonable minimum wage that is tied to the health of the economy somehow.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: wilshire]
    #7409360 - 09/14/07 02:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
who sets the market value?

supply and demand.




Of Labor? I don't see it that way. There is and always will be more of a supply of labor than there is a demand for it. Just because there would be an adequate supply of labor if everyone worked at .25 cents an hour doesn't mean that it should be allowed.

The federal minimum wage is, what, $5.15? I don't know anyone who works for that little. So what is the point of minimum wage? It is a check. It is protection so that the truly powerful corporations don't backslide to the "baron" era in which there were no minimum wage laws, no child labor laws, no unions, no insurance, no worker compensation... no protection for the worker at all. The reason that the labor movement occurred is because working conditions got so bad that things had to be changed.

I'm not a communist but if you don't believe that company owners will exploit their workers for profit if given the chance than you don't understand that things used to be much worse than they are now.


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7409401 - 09/14/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

> The federal minimum wage is, what, $5.15?

Hardly, just got raised to $7.25/hr over the next three years:

$5.85 - Summer of 2007
$6.55 - Summer of 2008
$7.25 - Summer of 2009


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Seuss]
    #7409432 - 09/14/07 02:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Interesting. that seems a little high


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #7409710 - 09/14/07 03:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

so if corporations were to agree amongst themselves to pay like shit

that doesn't work in real life. 99.9% of goods and services have no price floor, yet the sort of thing you're talking about does not happen.

most of your post is an off topic rant about how evil employers are.

the market price of unskilled labor, like anything else, is set by supply and demand. if the government establishes a legal price floor at or below the market value, there is no effect. if it sets a price floor above the market value, it will result in a surplus (unemployment). economics 101 here.

this is why you cannot go on increasing the legal price floor on labor as much as you want. people get fired - poorest first.

yes, there is a fairly low, by our standards, price set on unskilled labor in this country, because there is a lot of unskilled labor on the market. subsidizing it and artificially increasing its price is not the answer, and only makes the problem worse.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7409734 - 09/14/07 03:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

There is and always will be more of a supply of labor than there is a demand for it.

fsupply and demand are not fixed amounts. they are each represented by a curve - quantity as a function of price. at the market price of a good, supply equals demand. there is a surplus of unskilled labor because there is a price floor on it.

Just because there would be an adequate supply of labor if everyone worked at .25 cents an hour doesn't mean that it should be allowed.

you mean adequate demand?


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Edited by wilshire (09/14/07 04:13 PM)


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7409874 - 09/14/07 03:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You sell high interest loans to people with bad credit. I don't know if you still do that or not but that's fucking evil.

i know this is off topic, but how could that possibly be evil?

the greater the risk, the greater the potential reward. you put your money in the bank and you're gonna get a crappy interest rate, but you're pretty much guaranteed to get it. you invest in some IPO and maybe your stock tanks or maybe it doubles in a year.

it's the same exact thing when banks offer loans to individuals. they're more willing to take a lower interest rate on a sure bet.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7409896 - 09/14/07 03:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

> Interesting. that seems a little high

The Democrat's couldn't keep their promise to get the troops home from Iraq, but they quickly raised the minimum wage to help remove some of the sting in the eyes of those that are likely Democrat voters/supporters.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: wilshire]
    #7412072 - 09/15/07 05:22 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
You sell high interest loans to people with bad credit. I don't know if you still do that or not but that's fucking evil.

i know this is off topic, but how could that possibly be evil?

the greater the risk, the greater the potential reward. you put your money in the bank and you're gonna get a crappy interest rate, but you're pretty much guaranteed to get it. you invest in some IPO and maybe your stock tanks or maybe it doubles in a year.

it's the same exact thing when banks offer loans to individuals. they're more willing to take a lower interest rate on a sure bet.




Because he knows these people are getting fucked and they aren't buying assets they're buying used cars. They have terrible credit so they get sent to him for special finance, which is finance at unbelievably high interest rates. Hes a used car salesman basically.

Edit: Its not evil, its slimy, evil is an exaggeration


Edited by lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl (09/15/07 05:37 AM)


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Offlinenakors_junk_bag
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7412261 - 09/15/07 07:27 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This is fucking ridiculous, if people dint wanna pay high interest rates they should go without the car for a little while and save that money, then buy it out right. Quit calling him evil, evil is when people don't get to make their own decisions and are forced into things they dint decide to do.

I a motherfucker is stoopid enough to contractually obligate himself to super high interest rates then fuck him.

I am 26, have owned four cars, three were very nice, never once have I ever paid interest on a car. Save your money and buy the shit. Don't borrow money and then bitch about the interest rates.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #7413012 - 09/15/07 12:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

> evil is when people don't get to make their own decisions and are forced into things they dint decide to do.

I agree with you on this much, at least...

With respect to high interest loans, as long as the terms of the loan are very clear and the lender is being up front and honest, then I see no problem. However, a lot of people are claiming that they didn't understand the fine print, or that they were mislead or lied to regarding the terms of the loan... I suspect some of these people are telling the truth and others are looking for an excuse.


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OfflineSmackshadow
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Seuss]
    #7413174 - 09/15/07 01:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I support a minimum wage. I believe that exploitation hurts our economy, our labor supply, and our nation. If you work 40 hours a week you should be able to pay for the food on your table and a roof over your head. Other wise you are simply working yourselves into the poor house, and thats wrong.

As far as creating a price floor effect in labor I just haven't seen it. I haven't heard of any business firing people off because the minimum wage went up. I haven't seen them refuse to fill jobs because of it either.

I too agree with you that
Quote:

> evil is when people don't get to make their own decisions and are forced into things they dint decide to do.




I say it is just as evil to dupe people into a financlaly desasterous loan because you think it will help line your own pockets. imo


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The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7417210 - 09/16/07 05:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

They have terrible credit so they get sent to him for special finance, which is finance at unbelievably high interest rates.

if i have a known history of not returning things i rent, and i ask to rent something from you, promising that i've changed, would it be evil for you to charge me a higher rental fee than someone who always returns things on time and in good condition to make it worth your risk?

how is that evil?


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Smackshadow]
    #7417226 - 09/16/07 05:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If you work 40 hours a week you should be able to pay for the food on your table and a roof over your head.

and this is why there should be a minimum wage? because you think that?

I haven't heard of any business firing people off because the minimum wage went up. I haven't seen them refuse to fill jobs because of it either.

this means it isn't happening? it is. basic, basic economics, supported by real world statistics.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #7418873 - 09/17/07 05:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

nakors_junk_bag said:
This is fucking ridiculous, if people dint wanna pay high interest rates they should go without the car for a little while and save that money, then buy it out right.




Some people are in situations in which they actually need a vehicle to be able to commute to and from their job, which they need to do in order to generate money for themselves. Clearly, it is then to be accepted that one has to pay more interest if one doesn't have the financial background to be able to qualify for lower interest rates (in which case, they would be more capable of purchasing a vehicle for themselves without a loan), yet for you to say "just don't have a car and save your money" doesn't have much basis in reality.


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Like being here
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7418881 - 09/17/07 05:43 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Minimum wages don't solve the problem, because corporations take the difference in expenses from the cost of their operations, instead of their bottom line, which is probably why wilshire would state that raising minimum wage results in unemployment.

The approach would be to regulate corporations, by changing the definition of what a corporation is, which is, of course, within the realm of government. Government sets the framework within which corporations operate. I could not speculate as to the specific change to make, yet this is how it would need to be done. :wink:

On an unrelated note, let's end multinational corporations, as they are a violation of the people's sovereignity. :mad:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinenakors_junk_bag
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7418888 - 09/17/07 05:56 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

you can buy a car that will go for years fro 500 dollars and up. I you need to get a job, move closer.

Also I see your point, some people need to borrow money at super high rates, they should do so knowing their plight and make an informed decision.

I was merely stating it was ridiculous in my mind to call someone evil cause they broker high interest loans. It is fully the person purchasing the loan who is responsible for situation, whether it be necessity or ignorance.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #7418893 - 09/17/07 06:07 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

> you can buy a car that will go for years fro 500 dollars and up.

Yes, you can... but as anybody that has done so knows, you end up putting three to four times as much money into upkeep than you did to purchase the thing. Cheap cars are cheap for a reason. Sometimes you get lucky and get "the widows" car, but usually it is cheap 'cause it is a piece of junk. You also have additional costs beyond the fixed price of the car; fuel, insurance, taxes, etc.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Seuss]
    #7419056 - 09/17/07 08:35 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I like the idea of minimum wage, but employers will just find some way around it. If companies have to raise from 7 to 8 dollars an hour then they're just goin to cut people's hours to even it out which doesn't really do much.

A few years ago in California, there was a referendum to force employers of a certain size to offer health insurance to any employees with 36 hours/week or more. It sounded great... but... that just meant that if it passed.. employers would cut hours so they wouldn't have to pay.. effectively screwing those meant to be protected.

Kinda shitty eh? No matter what you do to try to help those making less, there's always going to be a loophole which causes the effort to fuck over those people.


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