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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
    #8734151 - 08/06/08 02:29 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Assuming that Wal-Mart will be forced to reduce staff in order to increase pay should the minimum wage go up, then are they not looking out for the best interests of their employees?  Or are you claiming that no job is better than a low paying job?




Well, no matter who you think it's good for, it's illegal for them to tell their hourly workers who to vote for.  And they're clearly not looking out for their employees.  They're looking to keep their cost of operation low by getting a business friendly candidate in office.

Quote:

who forces people to stay in minimum wage paying jobs?  Why can't these people learn a skill or trade and start a career rather than bitching about how unfair life is because they aren't Bill Gates?  If I paid my staff minimum wage, they would laugh at me and leave for a new job... but then, my staff are skilled, and are worth more than minimum wage




Because, some people aren't skilled and don't have time to get skilled at the moment in their lives.  I just don't think it's as easy as you're making it sound.  Your staff may leave you, but if somebody is depending on a job to pay their heating bill, food bill, and to pay for prescription meds for their child, they're going to just tough it out. 

What if the economy is bad, like it is now?  Your options are limited.  Minimum wage is around to protect workers from being taken advantage of.  In the turn of the last century, coal miners were treated like slaves by the mine owners.  They were barely paid enough to survive, and were paid in company credits to buy overpriced goods at the company store.  That way, the coal baron could rape them twice.  Finally, unions stood up to them and stopped the abuse. 

Like somebody on here was saying, unions are probably the reason that minimum wage was developed in the first place.  They made workers' rights an issue.  But unions don't work out in every type of employment, so that's where minimum wage takes over.  It's like all the workers in the country belong to one big union.

Quote:

Again, why is minimum wage equated to minimum cost of living?




You have a point here with asking why a 16 year old should be paid a living wage, but I think it's clear that minimum wage is not a living wage.  It's more like a benchmark for hourly employers to start from.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
    #8734297 - 08/06/08 02:58 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> a great number of companies will find reason to get rid of you if they hear talk about unions

That would be illegal, at least in the US.




so is murder but it seems like everyone is doing that too,
seriously, some states are 'right to work' states, what it has
to do with you not having rights I dont know but the DOL in most
of these states says you can be fired for any reason, so the
setup goes.. you talk union shop, the company rat lets the
office know, suddenly your position no longer exists or that
time you were late 3 years ago has come back to haunt you.

I know first hand that the state sucks corporate cock

Quote:

> I know of one that closed it's doors, dismissed all it's employees and reopened under a new name with new shitty pay...

I'm not sure if that is illegal or not, but regardless, it doesn't work with large companies.  They can shutdown a plant, but J&J isn't going to change their name and open a new plant under a different name.




J&J may not shut down the whole company but it doest take much
for a 'restructuring', in most cases they just get rid of those
that talk about bringing in unions, any reason for termination
works, what's cheaper, paying part of the unemployment or paying
everyone union wages



Quote:

Again, why is minimum wage equated to minimum cost of living?  I'm still waiting for a good reason why a sixteen year old flipping burgers should be paid enough to support a basic minimum lifestyle as if they were living on their own?




why do you assume that everyone earning minimum wage is a kid
living at home with mommy, especially in todays US economy, to
be honest, if it takes accepting a minimum wage job to keep my
kids fed until something better comes along I'll do it, want my
arm in the nasty toilet up to the shoulder for $6/hr, well if
thats what it takes to keep money coming in, that's what I have
to do. Seriously, we have college grads competing with those
kids for the same burger flipping jobs


Quote:

Assuming that Wal-Mart will be forced to reduce staff in order to increase pay should the minimum wage go up, then are they not looking out for the best interests of their employees?




walmart isnt know for looking out for their employees, walmart
wont cut back on staffing, they'll cut hours for higher paid
employees and bring in new people that will work for minimum
wage, if they cut back on the staff they'd have to increase
hours for employees and have to pay overtime, walmart looks out
for walmart

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8734305 - 08/06/08 02:59 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

> They're looking to keep their cost of operation low by getting a business friendly candidate in office.

I suspect you are correct, but... by getting a business friendly candidate in office, they help ensure the health of the company, which provides jobs that would otherwise be lost due to out of control rising costs for health care, minimum wage increase, tax increase, etc.

One other benefit of increasing minimum wage goes to the illegal aliens that are working off the books.  Minimum wage jobs will be lost to illegals that can be hired for a fraction of the cost. Viva Obama!

> Your options are limited.

No they aren't.  People get comfortable and don't wish to change, thus they use "my options are limited" as an excuse.  It is safe (comfortable) to stay where I am, hoping the government takes care of me, rather than leaving my comfort zone in order to improve my life and the well being of my family.

Edit:

> why do you assume that everyone earning minimum wage is a kid living at home with mommy

I'm not.  However, I don't consider minimum wage jobs to be career paths, except as stepping stones to positions of more responsibility (that also pay more).  As a middle aged adult, I might end up in a minimum wage job for a while, but only as long as it takes me to get back on my feet and reorient myself.  But if I, as a middle aged adult, have been working minimum wage jobs all my life, without having developed a skill or trade, then I deserve what I get.  If I lack the responsibility to learn a trade or skill, then I certainly lack the responsibility to raise a family or be living on my own.  I have no issue with states setting whatever minimum wage they feel is appropriate, but it shouldn't be mandated by the federal government.  States can do what they like, but the federal government wasn't formed to baby sit adults that refuse to grow up; we have Roosevelt to thank for that.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Edited by Seuss (08/06/08 03:10 PM)

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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
    #8734398 - 08/06/08 03:16 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

The problem with Wal-Mart is that they take advantage of the system just as much as poor people do.  I've seen it done before, where they'll keep a person right up near 40 hours a week, without actually giving them 40 so that they are not full time.  Then they don't have to give benefits. 

Then when workers ask about what they should do for health insurance, they let them konw that with their income, they'll qualify for state assistance.  That's one way they keep their prices low... they let the taxpayer pick up the tab for what they should be providing their employees.

Quote:

they help ensure the health of the company, which provides jobs that would otherwise be lost due to out of control rising costs for health care, minimum wage increase, tax increase, etc.





I dunno... I think the Walton family will still be able to eat with a little less profit.  They just seem like the greediest bunch of assholes around.  And they didn't even do shit, their grandfather did.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
    #8734651 - 08/06/08 04:04 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
As a middle aged adult, I might end up in a minimum wage job for a while, but only as long as it takes me to get back on my feet and reorient myself.




and how many years do you think that'll be at $6.55/hr or even at $8/hr, once you hit 50 your odds of good employment start dropping, few companies want to hire someone, train them and then have them retirement age as they're finally getting things going, you start hitting interviews (if you can get the time off from walmart during the week) and the interviewer starts saying "well, we'd really love to put you in but I feel you're over qualified" in plain english, 'we dont want to pay you what you're worth or have you croak on our sales floor'


Quote:

I have no issue with states setting whatever minimum wage they feel is appropriate, but it shouldn't be mandated by the federal government.




and in states like Georgia where they like to keep things as low as possible? where do we sign up to start hanging politicians until they see that minimum wage isnt enough to get by on, certainly not a living wage


Quote:

States can do what they like, but the federal government wasn't formed to baby sit adults that refuse to grow up; we have Roosevelt to thank for that.




he just borrowed the ideas from countries like Australia and New
Zealand and apparently it's not that bad an idea if 90% of the
world now has minimum wage laws, ultimately it's up to employers
to pay a living wage since even with states that have higher
than federal minimums still arent keeping up with inflation

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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8734745 - 08/06/08 04:20 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

where do we sign up to start hanging politicians




Nowhere... just start hanging them.  They'll get the idea soon enough.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8737404 - 08/07/08 02:10 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

and how many years do you think that'll be at $6.55/hr or even at $8/hr, once you hit 50 your odds of good employment start dropping, few companies want to hire someone, train them and then have them retirement age as they're finally getting things going, you start hitting interviews (if you can get the time off from walmart during the week) and the interviewer starts saying "well, we'd really love to put you in but I feel you're over qualified" in plain english, 'we dont want to pay you what you're worth or have you croak on our sales floor'




Oh cry me a river. If people locked up in private, corporately owned and operated prisons in the US and people in nations all over the planet who have no choice but to work in sweatshops for almost no payment but with long, grueling hours, with the threat of not being able to eat or feed their families looming over their heads can work for just a few cents per hour, than certainly people can survive on $6.55 per hour. That's the good life baby!

And so what if a few corporate officers at the top of the pyramid make absurdly large profits and line their pockets with platinum plated blood diamonds at the expense and suffering of the masses? At least they've got some food on their plate.

Quote:

and in states like Georgia where they like to keep things as low as possible? where do we sign up to start hanging politicians until they see that minimum wage isnt enough to get by on, certainly not a living wage




Let 'em! That means more money for those at the top, which means there's more to trickle down and perhaps someday enter the pocket of some lucky person at the bottom. Besides, a higher minimum wage would inevitably result in fewer jobs being available. So it would actually be hurting people, in the US's already slightly slowed-down economy. What would the government do then? Start taxing people and corporations appropriately and using that money and perhaps some money from the ridiculously over-inflated "National Security" budget to create jobs and incentives to boost the economy back to healthy levels and feedback to create more and more stable and well-paying jobs?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Offlinezouden
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: dblaney]
    #8737448 - 08/07/08 02:31 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Start taxing people and corporations appropriately and using that money and perhaps some money from the ridiculously over-inflated "National Security" budget to create jobs and incentives to boost the economy back to healthy levels and feedback to create more and more stable and well-paying jobs?



That sounds like a good idea.

It also sounds like something Roosevelt would say...


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8737503 - 08/07/08 03:00 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
lower than federal doesnt really mean lower than federal?

Like the Federal wage and hour law, State law often exempts particular occupations or industries from the minimum labor standard generally applied to covered employment.




Yes it means what it says.  If the states minimum wage is lower than the federal wage, both laws are valid, and both may be enforced by whatever mechanism is legislated.

Same as guns legal at federal level and illegal at state level or any other difference between laws- both laws are valid.

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:

know exactly what I'm talking about and you're right,
my payroll check reflected $2.13/hr, that didnt include tips but
as there's no federal minimum on tipping it really doesnt fall
into the equation.





No, there's no minimum wage on tipping, cuz the minimum wage is paid by the employer.  Everyone has to be paid the higher of their wages plus tips or the non-tipped minimum wage.  Yes, you aren't sued by the feds when you don't tip your pizza guy, so what?

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: johnm214]
    #8739572 - 08/07/08 03:29 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

thanks john but I actually knew all that, sarcasm doesnt convey well over the intarwebz

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: dblaney]
    #8739584 - 08/07/08 03:32 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
people in nations all over the planet who have no choice but to work in sweatshops for almost no payment but with long, grueling hours, with the threat of not being able to eat or feed their families looming over their heads can work for just a few cents per hour, than certainly people can survive on $6.55 per hour. That's the good life baby!





lol... people all over the world dont live in america

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8744974 - 08/08/08 04:05 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
thanks john but I actually knew all that, sarcasm doesnt convey well over the intarwebz




oh well, it made me feel all educated on minimum wages...

which I should be considering the apparent demand for someone with my skill set in this area that doesn't have his degree yet :foreheadslap:

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: johnm214]
    #8746482 - 08/08/08 09:29 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

damn... you make minimum wage?

I wish I could earn that in Ga

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8752047 - 08/10/08 08:10 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

yep life is good working for jack squat at a university doing the same work your boss does for 4 times the pay.

But the 'experience' is the real benifit, so tehy tell me.

Come on up, we'll find you a job.  Bring the rabbit, I don't know how long his record is, but they usually don't do background checks.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: johnm214]
    #8752071 - 08/10/08 08:23 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I've paid out almost $70k to be able to work this year

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8752104 - 08/10/08 08:36 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

You run your own buisness or what?  Heavy permits?  Taxes?


You like zappa and are a wealthy industrialist that looks like the monopoly man?

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: johnm214]
    #8752112 - 08/10/08 08:43 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I'm a farmer, the last 4 years have been bad, 3 consectuve years
of summer drought, late frost last year in addition to a lack of
rain, hundreds of fruit trees that didnt make it through the
summer regardless of my attempts at getting water to them

this year I've been running irrigation and preparing to set up
green houses, the largest expenditure was the barn, things are
looking up, it'll still be another 5 before I see any actual income

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