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InvisibleAlex213
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Minimum wage: A rich complaint
    #6123316 - 10/02/06 02:34 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

A rich complaint

Overpaid executives have got a cheek to stand against increases in the minimum wage, writes Victor Keegan

One of the great unsolved problems in economics - whether in the United States, Europe or the rest of the world - is how to reconcile growth with a fairer distribution of income. Nowhere is this seen more starkly than in the debate now going on on both sides of the Atlantic about the level at which the minimum wage should be pitched. In Britain this week the main employers' lobby, the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) warned that further increases in the minimum wage (which is about to go up from £5.05p to £5.35, making it among the highest in the world) will damage business and boost the black economy because some firms will be forced to take on cheap labour in order to survive.

In the UK, regular above-inflation increases in the minimum wage are one of the under-trumpeted achievements of Tony Blair's government about which it has good reason to be proud. It was introduced in 1999 (at £3.60) amid dire warnings from the CBI that it would create unemployment. Since then it has been increased significantly faster than both inflation and average earnings, without generating any measurable loss of jobs. Since 2002 the minimum wage has risen by 27% in the UK whereas in America it has been estimated (by the Economic Policy Institute) that its inflation-adjusted value is 30% lower in 2006 than it was in 1979 (though US comparisons are complicated by health care assistance and tax allowances).

Leaving aside for a moment the economic arguments, one has to admire the sheer cheek of the CBI warning. The top executives of British industry - who are one of the driving forces behind the CBI - have for many years been receiving pay and remuneration increases way above 10% a year (and sometimes above 20%) and from a far higher base than those on the minimum wage yet with a straight face they can set themselves against more significant increases for the poor. In fact many of these top executives earn such high bonuses they could afford to put some of it aside to help fund non-inflationary increases in low pay and still leave themselves with a bonanza.

I am strongly in favour of rewarding those who make a special contribution to the success of a company, but that is not what has been happening. An increase by one company suddenly sets a "going rate" (not a phrase they allow unions to use as a criterion) from which the next leap forward takes place to an even higher "norm" without any connection to productivity improvements. Obviously, if you suddenly double the minimum wage it would have a big effect on employment but the UK minimum is being increased by a manageable percentage each year and should go on being boosted until it has been shown to have a damaging effect on the economy as a whole. In economic theory. if you raise the price of something then, other things being equal, demand for that product or service will fall.

But real life is more complicated. For a start, if the minimum wage is raised for all companies then their competitiveness with each other is not necessarily affected unless they are capital intensive or in competition with companies abroad. In that case it becomes another additional cost to add to others (such as a strong pound and higher energy costs) to be absorbed by higher productivity, squeezed profit margins or whatever. A higher minimum wage can actually increase employment in circumstances where the higher payment is sufficiently attractive to tempt someone to take a job who was previously "economically inactive" or not employed at all. At the other extreme, it can be used as an instrument of racism as when white South Africans thought that a higher minimum wage would mean that white people were more likely to be employed than black people.

Nothing is simple when dealing with the minimum wage. That is a good reason why Britain's Low Pay Commission - an admirable tripartite body bringing together employers, unions and independents - should not lose its nerve. The UK is in effect a laboratory for monitoring the progress of a "progressive" minimum wage. The commission has so far managed to move by consensus, despite the CBI's earlier misgivings. It should carry on recommending increases above the rise in average earnings at least until there is definite evidence that jobs are being lost. And even if some jobs are lost, it may be a small price to pay for the establishment of a decent minimum wage, which is the badge of a civilised society, as long as a social safety net prevents the newly unemployed slipping into poverty.

If the CBI's main worry is about increasing the black economy then it should support measures to root out "black" firms rather than using it as an excuse to prevent some of the ills of society from being eradicated. Even if the minimum wage were to rise to the level of £6 an hour by 2008, as demanded by the Trades Union Congress, it is hardly something to boast about. Top executives should perhaps ponder how they would have been able to live on a minimum wage if fate had taken a different course.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/economics/story/0,,1883045,00.html

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Alex213]
    #6124528 - 10/02/06 01:23 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Alright, I'll bite.

It's a good thing he said "economic arguments aside" because he missed the absolute biggest argument of all:

Supply and Demand.

Like it or not, CEOs who are capable of turning corporations around, dramtically increasing profits, or growing market share are in EXTREMELY short supply. There are so few of these fellows that business fall all over themselves to try and attract them from one another.

CEO salaries are driven upwards by this competition, no surprise there.

On the other hand, unskilled labor is in a constant state of extreme overabundance. Anyone who is alive, and not severely handicapped, is inherently capable of performing most unskilled labor tasks. Even those who are "skilled" are still capable of performing unskilled labor.

Not only that, but thanks to social reforms, the workforce is bigger than ever. Women, minorities, and many of the handicapped, are no longer immediately shunned from jobs. Thus, unskilled labor is also in greater supply than ever before, even just a few decades ago.

It's also amusing when he refers to the CBI's "cheek" without making any reference to the cheek of labor unions. You know, cheek like "immigrants shouldn't have jobs" and "workers overseas don't deserve jobs" and "ordinary consumers should pay high import taxes to justify our overabundant salaries..."

When Victor Keegan can prove that skillful CEOs aren't in high demand, I'll start giving his arguments more serious consideration.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Economist]
    #6124790 - 10/02/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I can understand there being a demand for good CEOs, and that good CEOs deserve their fair compensation based upon their unique talents. However, there also seem to be a lot of bad CEOs that are cashing out of the companies as they lead into failure. Take Carly Fiorina with HP, for example. Upon getting canned as chairman and CEO, her total severance package was estimated at a total of $42 million. I would love to make $42 million for getting fired. Why do companies pay so much for failure? I don't understand.


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Offlinesnoopaloop53
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Seuss]
    #6124821 - 10/02/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

A lot of of bad CEOs? HP, ENRON, who else? There are a lot more that are being very successful and making thier companies lots of money. As for making lots of money for being fired you're only seeing one side of what they've done. You don't get to be a CEO of a business that big without knowing what you are doing at some point. To get to those positions you have to be able to perform, they don't just tap some random person walking down the street and give them a corner office and a pile of money.

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Seuss]
    #6124822 - 10/02/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The severance package stems from buying out the remainder of the hiring contract, OR it was a condition of initial employment.

I don't know why Fiorina was viewed as an attractive CEO initially (I'm not familiar with the specifics), but for whatever reason they felt that she was significantly qualified to offer her a contract that necessitated the severance package. If her contract did not require some kind of severance arrangement, she wouldn't have recieved it. Case in point: James Goodwin, formerly CEO of United Airlines recieved $900,000 a year for two years after he was fired because it was written into his contract as a condition of being hired in the first place.

CEO's that fail their companies don't cash out because the companies WANT to pay them that much. They cash out because the companies HAVE to pay them that much in order to guarantee they work for them in the first place.

Add to that the fact that the vast majority of large businesses do not fail (clearly the economy would be undergoing a nightmare scenario were that the case) and most boards are willing to chance offering a huge severance package upfront if it means securing a talented CEO.

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OfflineShrm420
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Seuss]
    #6124840 - 10/02/06 03:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

It seems all the poor CEO's are still recieving very nice pay, so whats wrong in a slight increase in minimum wage?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Shrm420]
    #6124944 - 10/02/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Because it inevitably results in fewer jobs for minimum wage type employees.


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Offlinesnoopaloop53
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6125228 - 10/02/06 05:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If the employee's were doing a good job then they would get a slight increase in their regular wage. They should work harder and then they'll get more money.

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Offlinedeadheadjpc2000
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #6125354 - 10/02/06 05:40 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Let's not forget that a minimum wage job was never intended to be a living wage. It is for entry level/no skill jobs. If you find that at ( insert age), you are still earning min. wage, you didn't learn any marketable skills along the way. That's your own fault!!
If you are young and just starting out, then you deserve a low wage. No skills to offer an employer. You rise to the occaison, and get more $$.
It may take a few sucky jobs to get the right one. It's much easier to get another job than it is to find a job.
However; enter the welfare system and healthcare for the poor. But that's another thread.

If you work hard, use your brain and make Educated Decisions, it is not hard to earn a decent wage.
Slackers, Blamers, People with Excuses for Everything, I say STFU and go to work. Work 2 jobs..3 jobs, whatever it takes....Hell, I was in 4 different kitchens a day when I was working/ going to college.
Peace...

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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Alex213]
    #6126261 - 10/02/06 08:54 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I think I stayed at minimum wage 3 months, this was when I was 16 years old, a busboy, and receiving a portion of tips from waitresses commensurate with how well I was doing my job. If anyone is stuck at minimum wage for a year and doesn't have an actual mental handicap or severe physical handicap, it's probably his own fault. The very least he can do is to look for a new job with a better employer. If you're making minimum wage for a year, you haven't much to lose by telling a lousy employer, "take this job and shove it."


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Economist]
    #6127179 - 10/03/06 12:35 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Like it or not, CEOs who are capable of turning corporations around, dramtically increasing profits, or growing market share are in EXTREMELY short supply. There are so few of these fellows that business fall all over themselves to try and attract them from one another.

CEO salaries are driven upwards by this competition, no surprise there.


Nonsense. The article explains how executives make up a "going rate" for themselves that has no relation to the profits they make. There are countless examples of executives running companies into the ground who still recieve massive pay rises. If you can find me examples where executive pay drops when profits go down then please do so. Otherwise your argument has no merit.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Shrm420]
    #6127184 - 10/03/06 12:38 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Shrm420 said:
It seems all the poor CEO's are still recieving very nice pay, so whats wrong in a slight increase in minimum wage?




Presumably because the executives would rather take the money themselves.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Economist]
    #6127416 - 10/03/06 05:07 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The severance package stems from buying out the remainder of the hiring contract, OR it was a condition of initial employment.




I still don't get it. As an employer, I would never hire anybody on the terms that if they screw up really badly, than I will pay them lots of money to get rid of them. I'm not very bright when it comes to money issues, but this seems to be a no brainer. I would honestly find such a demand by a potential employee to be a red flag. "The guy/gal is so concerned that they are going to screw up, that they are making certain they don't have to pay for their mistakes. I don't think this is the kind of person I want running my company."

Again, my ignorance in economics is massive... I make no claims that I actually understand this stuff... but I am trying.

Quote:

CEO's that fail their companies don't cash out because the companies WANT to pay them that much. They cash out because the companies HAVE to pay them that much in order to guarantee they work for them in the first place.




Isn't this an indication of a distorted CEO market? Of is it simply another indicator of supply and demand at work? Either way, it seems backwards, and I suspect is the source of a lot of the resentment from the "working class" towards upper management.

Quote:

Add to that the fact that the vast majority of large businesses do not fail




I think this is a big part of what I was missing. It is easy to forget (for me at least) how many big companies there are compared to the handful of bad CEOs that I could use as an example. It is easy to fixate on the two or three cases that CNN highlights each year.

Quote:

It seems all the poor CEO's are still recieving very nice pay, so whats wrong in a slight increase in minimum wage?




To me, as one that is fairly ignorant when money is concerned, an increase in minimum wage is nothing more than the devaluation of the currency. Minimum wage sets the base for everything else. When minimum wage is increased, my production costs increase, therefore I have to raise the prices of my goods forcing the people that are getting minimum wage to pay more for the goods they need. If minimum wage was $1000 an hour, do you think you could buy still buy a loaf of bread for a few bucks? I don't.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Seuss]
    #6127473 - 10/03/06 06:19 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

As an employer, I would never hire anybody on the terms that if they screw up really badly, than I will pay them lots of money to get rid of them.

It makes sense if you're an exec tho. If you set up a system where even if you fuck up you're paid a fortune then when you fuck up yourself you still get paid a fortune. It's a good way of keeping execs rich regardless of profits or performance.

Lets face it, very, very few execs make any real difference to a company. If they were earning money based in performance many of them would be struggling to make minimum wage themselves. They depend on a system geared to paying themselves enormous amounts regardless of performance.

Minimum wage sets the base for everything else.

Not really, it may set the base for certain types of lower paid work but certainly there's no exec on earth relating his own salary to the minimum wage.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Alex213]
    #6127511 - 10/03/06 07:10 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

> It makes sense if you're an exec tho.

Companies are often owned by shareholders, not an exec.  It doesn't make sense to me, from a shareholder standpoint.  But, as I said, I am very ignorant when it comes to this field.  In this case, suspect my ignorance over the "evil nature" of CEOs.

> It's a good way of keeping execs rich regardless of profits or performance.

Again, that is how I see it... but... I suspect my lack of understanding comes from my ignorance, not from some scheme by CEOs.  I'm hoping that Economist can explain it.  He does a very good job of dumbing it down enough that I can understand.

> Lets face it, very, very few execs make any real difference to a company.

I would strongly disagree with this statement.  I may be ignorant when it comes to money matters, but I have had my fair share of engineering management courses, and I know that the CEO of a company makes a huge difference to the company.

> They depend on a system geared to paying themselves enormous amounts regardless of performance.

That is the general impression that I have... but... I suspect my ignorance again.  Economist already pointed out one area that I was ignorant; the number of sucessful CEOs versus the number of failed CEOs.  Out of the top 500 companies in the world, how many have had problems with their CEOs in the last year... not many.  We are painting the majority of good CEOs with the same brush that we use to describe the bad ones.

> but certainly there's no exec on earth relating his own salary to the minimum wage.

How much did the CEO of google make from his salary last year?  What about the year before?  A single dollar, if I remember correctly.  A salary of one dollar for the entire year is pretty much below minimum wage.  (You decided to use the word salary rather than income, not me!  :wink: )


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Seuss]
    #6127830 - 10/03/06 10:03 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

There is such a high demand for CEO's of large corporations that is allows the applicant to almost completely set the terms of employment. Contrary to what a lot of misguided people may believe, not any average Joe can step in an be a CEO of a Fortune 500 company.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Redstorm]
    #6128593 - 10/03/06 01:41 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

> There is such a high demand for CEO's of large corporations that is allows the applicant to almost completely set the terms of employment.

Wow. I should have listened to Dr. H when he told me to go into engineering management.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Redstorm]
    #6128721 - 10/03/06 02:35 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I think people get that impression because a lot of entrepreneurs have happened to start off with very little business experience, and gone on to lead their companies fairly effectively. Especially in the last 20 years or so.


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Invisiblenewuser1492
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Seuss]
    #6129512 - 10/03/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

You need to realize that there are thousands of successful, legal companies for every Enron or HP. Perhaps a well educated exec is disinclined to sign a contract assuming their failure which is exactly what a contract with a failure clause would do. The HP exec was the exception not the rule. Most execs plan on growing their company which results in more jobs and usually better wages. Big business is not the enemy.

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Alex213]
    #6129799 - 10/03/06 07:07 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Nonsense. The article explains how executives make up a "going rate" for themselves that has no relation to the profits they make. There are countless examples of executives running companies into the ground who still recieve massive pay rises.



The article doesn't explain anything at all. The "going rate" isn't made up, it's real, and it's determined by shareholders. The article does nothing to disprove this basic fact.

I'm sorry but your claim just doesn't hold up. No board would ever appoint a CEO because of a fictional "going rate", that doesn't make any logical sense at all. If you can provide an example where an executive, without any successful management experience, made a clearly fictionalized claim of "going rate" and was hired at that rate I'd love to hear about it.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
If you can find me examples where executive pay drops when profits go down then please do so. Otherwise your argument has no merit.



Yeah, it's called being paid in stock (or stock options) and it's a VERY common form of executive compensation.

@Seuss

Redstorm got it, basically successful executives are in such overwhelmingly high demand that they can ask for anything and recieve it. Over time, they've learned that some things are more worthwhile to ask for than others (such as guaranteed severance packages) and thus they all begin to ask for them as a condition of employment.

According to Businessweek, by 2002 almost all CEO hiring contracts had guaranteed severance packages.

It's also important to think about the bargaining process that the board goes through. Clearly they're not going to hire a CEO who they think is destined to fail, so they might be more likely to make concessions to prospective candidates over severance packages, since they aren't planning to sever their relationships in advance.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Economist]
    #6131332 - 10/04/06 04:43 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm got it, basically successful executives are in such overwhelmingly high demand that they can ask for anything and recieve it. Over time, they've learned that some things are more worthwhile to ask for than others (such as guaranteed severance packages) and thus they all begin to ask for them as a condition of employment.




I see what you guys mean, I just had no idea that the demand was so high and the supply so low. I guess I can also see why... it is a chicken and egg problem... I want a good CEO to run my company, but all the good CEOs are running companies and have no desire to leave stability for risk... so I either pay out the nose to bring somebody that is proven good onboard, or hire an unknown/unproven leader.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Seuss]
    #6131355 - 10/04/06 05:00 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Are execs really in so much demand? Is there anyone chomping at the bit to hire the execs who ran the privatised railway service into the ground whilst awarding themselves enormous salaries at the same time? I doubt it. There are dozens of examples of execs running companies into the ground whilst still receiving enormous pay rises that have no relation whatsoever to performance.

While there will be a tiny fraction of "star" execs, the vast bulk of them will very ordinary and will recieve a salary that bears little relation to performance or profit.

Edited by Alex213 (10/04/06 05:07 AM)

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Economist]
    #6131358 - 10/04/06 05:06 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

'm sorry but your claim just doesn't hold up. No board would ever appoint a CEO because of a fictional "going rate", that doesn't make any logical sense at all

Well it's not my claim, it's how executive salaries are determind unless you've evidence the author of the article is lying. It certainly makes sense. Executives setting "going rates" for each other means their own salaries skyrocket too.

Yeah, it's called being paid in stock (or stock options) and it's a VERY common form of executive compensation

That's not quite what I said. What I was interested in was whether you have an example where an exec who has run a company into the ground has seen his salary plummet accordingly. Not share options or bonus's - his actual salary.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Minimum wage: A rich complaint [Re: Alex213]
    #6131383 - 10/04/06 05:41 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

> Are execs really in so much demand?

Not the middle management types, but the high end types that sit on the board. There is a big difference. One of my engineering management profs was a retired VP from P&G that got bored and volunteered to teach at the engineering college I attended. I can't put it into words, but you could really feel the difference between this guy and your average boss. Imagine the difference taking a phyics class from a nobel laureate and a high school math teacher. He was on an entire different playing field. It was an amazing semester. If it hadn't been for this experience, I probably would still equate CEO as glorified shift manager at McDonalds.

> There are dozens of examples of execs running companies into the ground whilst still receiving enormous pay rises that have no relation whatsoever to performance

Exactly! Dozens. A fraction of a percentage of the Fortune-1000 execs that are not running companies into the ground.

I'm starting to see where my mistakes were originating. Thanks Economist and Redstorm... and Alex as well for getting me to think.


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