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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Should minimum wage be raised?
    #3422946 - 11/29/04 12:20 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

So I forgot about this paper I have to do for my economics class... It's due in about 45 minutes.  Late papers will not be accepted, so I'm either going to turn in a piece of shit or nothing at all.  Can anybody here help me with at least turning in a piece of shit?  The paper has to answer the question "should minimum wage be raised" and the answer has to be supported with valid economic reasons.  Thanks in advance for any help! :smile:

Peace,

RebelSteve

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #3422956 - 11/29/04 12:24 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

"I was too busy working two jobs for minimum wage in order to pay for this course; therefore, I had no time to actually write a paper contrasting the pros and cons of raising minimum wage."


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Seuss]
    #3422974 - 11/29/04 12:33 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

The state of Florida just raised minimum wage by $1. I want to see how that positively or negatively affects the economy.

Since federal minimum wage has not been increased in seven years I don't see the $1 state increase as increasing purchasing power. Instead I see the increase as merely reflecting inflation.

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: newuser1492]
    #3423032 - 11/29/04 12:53 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I probably can not help you write a paper

But I can say that Minimum Wage should be increased by a very large margin. The impact would be a very large shift in the price of things.And the profits the rich harvest from the sweat of the poor.

But I also think Unions should be abolished. They were need in 1912 but not now.

When You only have to pay 16,000 dollar for a car instead of 30,000 dollars. Then paying extra buck for a hamburger would be something I could afford.

It is crazy to me that we pay huge ridiculous sums of cash for union made stuff. I have seen the cost of loading a truck by union workers. It was in the hundreds of dollars. Stupid waste of cash.

The Minimum wage is set far below what our own government says the poverty level is.

Funny how they dictate that millions of people should be payed a wage that forces them to be very poor. :smirk:


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3423054 - 11/29/04 12:59 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Funny how they dictate that millions of people should be payed a wage that forces them to be very poor.




They don't force any company to pay minimum wage. They say that minimum wage is the least amount of money a company can pay someone. All companies are free to pay as much above that amount as they want.

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Anonymous

Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #3423056 - 11/29/04 12:59 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: newuser1492]
    #3423093 - 11/29/04 01:12 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
Quote:

Funny how they dictate that millions of people should be payed a wage that forces them to be very poor.




They don't force any company to pay minimum wage. They say that minimum wage is the least amount of money a company can pay someone. All companies are free to pay as much above that amount as they want.




True but if you were a greedy corporate fiend that needs to pay for his Sailboat and you were told you only had to pay your workers some pitifully wage guess what..............

The point I am making is that if company's are forced to pay real wages then they will find  profit in other areas other than the wage pool.

Getting wealthy off workers is the goal in business. But as a former owner of a very large Manufacturing firm I can tell you that I made the choice to pay my worker about 30% higher than the same workers down the street.

I found profit in other ways. But mostly my guys worked much harder because they got payed a lot more than the shop down the street.

So I could still made a good profit, make a fine product and had very happy, very well payed employees.

Don't you find it odd that while some company's are paying Union wages for making "Product A"  and still make a good profit. While a company that does not pay Union wages can make the same " Product A" and make huge sick profits?

If all company's were required to pay a higher minimum wage and the Unions were killed. We would all be closer to a even keel :thumbup:

In the eyes of Fucknuckle anyway :grin:


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Offlineld50negative1
lethal dosage

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 821
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #3423112 - 11/29/04 01:20 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

minimum wage jobs are not for people that have families. if you have a family you should have an education. absolutely not.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #3423135 - 11/29/04 01:30 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Raising minimum wage usually results in more unemployment. Some say we should raise minimum wage to a living wage, but it usually tends to be high school and college students getting these jobs anyway, so a lot of that extra cash is unnecessary. It used to be, and still is to an extent, that we had a large blue-collar working class that was able to provide a comfortable living for unskilled manual labor. Unfortunately, most of those were manufacturing jobs are being exported, and we are moving more and more into a service economy. There's no end to the fingerpointing as to who is to blame for this, but I imagine it's just a natural consequence of a global economy. We've had our economy shift before from agrarian to manufacturing, so we might as well buckle tight for another shift into a service economy. The free market has a tendency to adjust itself. If the government quit squandering our tax dollars on military adventurism, corporate welfare, and foreign aid, the market would grow to adapt to this change and create a service-based working class, or something of that sort. In short, no, minimum wage should not be raised.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3423136 - 11/29/04 01:30 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I want to see the person that can live single with a Minimum wage and buy a home, own a newer car, pay all his other bills, save for the future, make any investments, start a business, pay for school, etc.........

While earning 6 bucks an hour?

Please
You must be mistaken :thumbup:


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 1 year, 19 days
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3423152 - 11/29/04 01:35 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I'd be impressed just to see someone that is making minimum wage that can afford bus fare...

of course there are excpetions to the rule...most bar/restaurant staff get paid minimum wage, but rely on tips. Which often more than triple whatever wage they are making.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3423162 - 11/29/04 01:39 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
it usually tends to be high school and college students getting these jobs anyway, .




I agree with several of your points but this one is very false

I think sometimes many of your have no clue as to what to poor of this country go thru.

Dude only a very small % of the mim wage workers fall into your narrow picture. Most come from poor families that never made it to college. They take what ever jobs they can find

And saying that we are losing such a large amount of Manufacturing jobs to over seas is nothing more than you listen too much CNN. Whiel we may be losing some great big huge giant companies. Belive me that there are millions of small outfitts that will never leave. And these are the jobs that many of my friends need and take.

I can only speak for the Metro Detroit area and Mich. But I know hundreds of families that live off Min wage and are denied Welfare because they make too much money. WOW I say to my self.


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3423194 - 11/29/04 01:51 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Your close involvement with the poor in your area may have led you to believe that ss7's comments are incorrect, but in fact he is right.

Many studies have shown that in the US, the overwhelming majority of minimum wage earners are young people. Further, very few of those making minimum wage when they first enter the work force are still making it two years later. As a matter of fact, a bare majority receive their first raise within six months.

This is not to say there is no one out there who has worked at minimum wage for more than their first two years in the job marketplace. Of course there are many people who do. But it is far from the norm.

pinky


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Phred]
    #3423214 - 11/29/04 01:57 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

So your saying the difference between 5.50 an hour and 7.00 an hour makes some great big huge difference? A 25 cent raise is like an extra 6 bucks a week after taxes



I don't think so and min wage job will max out at about 2-3 dollar more an hour.


Until a person is making over 10-12 an hour he or she is very poor.

I would like very much to see a person who makes a decent wage try to live off 7-9 dollar an hour.


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #3423276 - 11/29/04 02:07 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

minimum wage should be abolished entirely.

it hurts the people it tries to help the most and
otherwise skews the labor market.

it's a joke.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: afoaf]
    #3423406 - 11/29/04 02:27 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Oh yeah that would be a good idea

Then the bastards could just pay people 1.50 an hour


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3423508 - 11/29/04 02:55 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

If people choose to work for 1.50 an hour why shouldn't they be able to. If that person could not live off a wage that small obviously they would not work there. The market is able to set its own limits. The poor around you has made you go wacky fucknuckle.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: d33p]
    #3423524 - 11/29/04 03:00 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Your post is so far from reality

I don't even know what to say


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3423578 - 11/29/04 03:15 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Well please dissect my post and explain how it is removed from reality. I am willing to bet you haven't got a single fucking clue what you are talking about. Economics is tricky.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: d33p]
    #3423693 - 11/29/04 03:41 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

OK now that you are getting rude

In fact I am part of the economy.....er was

Until 2 weeks ago I employed over 70 people on 2 shifts.

I think I have a much better understanding of the subject than some College class

Now on to your post

I fully understand the fact of supply and demand. I understand how markets work. I have survived them for 15 years and turned my company into a cash powerhouse competing in the most competitive market I know of. The Automotive market

But you said that people can live with 1.50 an hour. Or that a company could survive offering such a low wage.

You are not thinking clearly.

Like many people here you are just trying to say something silly and expect us to buy it.

Like I said your statement was way out of touch with reality

But Your point has some truth even though is was stretched beyond what is real.

So points to you :smile:


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3423737 - 11/29/04 03:50 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
OK now that you are getting rude

In fact I am part of the economy.....er was

Until 2 weeks ago I employed over 70 people on 2 shifts.

I think I have a much better understanding of the subject than some College class

Now on to your post

I fully understand the fact of supply and demand. I understand how markets work. I have survived them for 15 years and turned my company into a cash powerhouse competing in the most competitive market I know of. The Automotive market

But you said that people can live with 1.50 an hour. Or that a company could survive offering such a low wage.

You are not thinking clearly.

Like many people here you are just trying to say something silly and expect us to buy it.

Like I said your statement was way out of touch with reality

But Your point has some truth even though is was stretched beyond what is real.

So points to you :smile:




Well first of all sorry be rude i do that often and i don't mean it.

And second of all you completely missed my point. You said if there were no min wage laws some company might offer 1.50
Quote:

Oh yeah that would be a good idea Then the bastards could just pay people 1.50 an hour


I disagreed with this point so i made my post.

If workers cannot survive off that wage no one will work there and the company would have to raise its wage. My point was that since a company cannot survive offering a wage so low why are the laws in place.  If a person can survive off a wage and they are willing to work for that i dont see why the government won't allow that.

I myself believe in no minimum wage laws but if i did own a company with workers would pay them quite a bit because i believe a happier well paid workforce works better. I have seen this to be very evident in my father's business who pays his workers crazy wages. The government needs to stay the fuck out of the economy is all I'm saying.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: d33p]
    #3423827 - 11/29/04 04:09 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Well I never had a college class on economics

But I think that the Government is the economy.

I just don't understand your logic and I see no basis for it in my experience dealing with business.


But I am trying


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3423908 - 11/29/04 04:37 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
Well I never had a college class on economics

But I think that the Government is the economy.

I just don't understand your logic and I see no basis for it in my experience dealing with business.


But I am trying




Well since i understand my own logic, can you try and explain my own logic to me. I don't see what you are not able to understand. Please im serious. Since you misunderstood my first post, im wondering if you are doing to same or if i am just being to vague.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: d33p]
    #3423932 - 11/29/04 04:45 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I think maybe this is a pointless discussion don't you?

I mean when will we ever see anyone try to pay anyone a 1.50 an hour?

If I answer you I will somehow be wrong and if I don't answer you I am going to excused of not understanding?

So.....................

Lets us leave it here and you can think what ever you like

I think our life's experiences are far to different to carry on

Peace friend


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: d33p]
    #3423962 - 11/29/04 04:54 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

How many jobs today actually pay minimum wage? I would have a hard time finding one locally. Even the corner gas station pays around $8/hour for a completely mindless job.

Quote:

If people choose to work for 1.50 an hour why shouldn't they be able to.




Quote:

But you said that people can live with 1.50 an hour. Or that a company could survive offering such a low wage.




If a company was allowed to offer $1.50/hour no one would work there. The company would go out of business or have to raise it's wages without intervention by the government. It's not like there is a giant conspiracy of every company in the world that would allow something like that to happen. There is competition in the marketplace. This competition benefits employees as well as consumers. As an employee I can approach my company and show them that another company down the street is willing to pay more. If the company I work for can't pay more then I can choose to work somewhere else for more money.

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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3423974 - 11/29/04 04:57 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

We are in agreement(although one of your previous statements does not coincide with this) that a company could not sustain itself paying out a wage of $1.50/hour. Are you even misunderstanding that?

My view is that the market sets its own wage minimums and maximums.

Your view is that this does not work so the government must enforce minimum wages.

You have offered no support for your view. I didn't ever think there was a discussion.

Also i don't understand how you can completely disregard the huge effects(mostly negative) that would result from raising the minimum wage very high.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Anonymous

Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #3423983 - 11/29/04 04:59 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

an effective minimum wage law will result in unemployment. that is the trade-off.

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: d33p]
    #3424007 - 11/29/04 05:03 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Oh, now I see the problem. You have made up a view for me.

No wonder we are going in circles

It will be very hard for me to conform to your image of me.

Sorry but you have me wrong.


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: newuser1492]
    #3424014 - 11/29/04 05:04 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
How many jobs today actually pay minimum wage? I would have a hard time finding one locally. Even the corner gas station pays around $8/hour for a completely mindless job.

Quote:

If people choose to work for 1.50 an hour why shouldn't they be able to.




Quote:

But you said that people can live with 1.50 an hour. Or that a company could survive offering such a low wage.




If a company was allowed to offer $1.50/hour no one would work there. The company would go out of business or have to raise it's wages without intervention by the government. It's not like there is a giant conspiracy of every company in the world that would allow something like that to happen. There is competition in the marketplace. This competition benefits employees as well as consumers. As an employee I can approach my company and show them that another company down the street is willing to pay more. If the company I work for can't pay more then I can choose to work somewhere else for more money.




Are you just backing me up or what? This has been my point throughout this entire thread........


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: d33p]
    #3424090 - 11/29/04 05:21 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I was trying to explain what you said in simpler terms. Yes I am backing you up. I oppose a federal minimum wage.

I really don't see how having a minimum wage helps. If there was no federal minimum wage I feel that the market would adjust and probably stay about the same. If the federal minimum wage was increased beyond the rate on inflation I believe the cost of living would increase accordingly. The owner of the local Subway isn't going to dip into his pocket when he has to pay his workers more. He is going to increase the cost of a sandwich.

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Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
Male
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: newuser1492]
    #3424112 - 11/29/04 05:26 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

This a very intresting article on the economy. Here's a part: Decline of the White-Collar Workforce
Both sides of the political spectrum have confused the dawn of the service economy with the Second Coming. Swept away by the glamour of the transition to a service economy, they have failed to look carefully at the downside. And there is a downside: Millions of workers will be trapped in low-wage positions with no hope of upward mobility, and?despite the conventional wisdom that sees the service economy as a white-collar bonanza?automation will devastate the earnings of many white-collar workers and consign whole professions to the dustbin of history.

Decline of the White-Collar Workforce
Both sides of the political spectrum have confused the dawn of the service economy with the Second Coming. Swept away by the glamour of the transition to a service economy, they have failed to look carefully at the downside. And there is a downside: Millions of workers will be trapped in low-wage positions with no hope of upward mobility, and?despite the conventional wisdom that sees the service economy as a white-collar bonanza?automation will devastate the earnings of many white-collar workers and consign whole professions to the dustbin of history.

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/1998/03/mead.html

Anyone think it's possible that the white collar worker will be paid less? Oh I hope not, that's what I'm going to do. FUCK


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Anonymous

Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: newuser1492]
    #3424160 - 11/29/04 05:34 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

He is going to increase the cost of a sandwich.

his workers are going to be making less sandwiches. there will be a reduction in both employment and production. sure, some people may be paid more, but that is more than offset by the increased price and scarcity of sandwiches and anything else produced by labor. then there are the people who are put out of work altogether.

not a sane economic policy. one cannot create economic prosperity through an act of legislation.

the irony of the whole thing is that the people hit hardest by the unemployment caused by a minimum wage are the ones least qualified for employment. so much for helping the little guy.

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InvisibleJohn
ssdp.org

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 7,026
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3424198 - 11/29/04 05:40 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ss7 said:
but it usually tends to be high school and college students getting these jobs anyway




even if that is the case (which i doubt) a lot of college students don't have mommy and daddy to rely on. judging by this statement i assume you have yet to fend for yourself on a realistic level. I'm a student and have tons of bills with rent and all that comes with it, tution, car maintence ect. I have to work two jobs and I'm still on a ramen diet half the month. I work for my school at $5.15 an hour (soon to be $6.15 in jan due to florida raising minimun wage) and we get a raise after working there for one year of a whopping 35cents! I also work as an independant contractor for many upperscale restaurants in the area on commission ($2.60 a delivery) plus tips which comes out to like $8.00 an hour. While it's true there are (very few) places i can make more than minimum wage like I did at my old job (was $5.15 + tips, came out to about $10-15/hr depending) those jobs require all of your time. My old job had me working until 4am when I had school at 9 the next morning. If you combine my jobs pay I make $13.15/hr. and don't have any money left after bills to save for emergencys. What happens when my 10 year old POS car breaks down? I'm pretty fucked as that's how I make my money and I don't have backup money in the bank for things like that. You're not entitled to an opinion if you're still living off mommy and daddy (and correct me if I'm wrong in my assumption) That extra dollar an hour will really be noticable to people like me, maybe i can actually buy some meat!


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There's a thin line between sanity and insanity... and I just snorted it.

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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: John]
    #3424226 - 11/29/04 05:45 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

John do you think your college job will lose hours due to the increase? I can imagine a college having fewer workers on a shift and simply making them work harder. If you're making $1 more per hour but working less hours the increase doesn't really benefit you.

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Offlined33p
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: John]
    #3424244 - 11/29/04 05:48 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

John, the problem is that increasing minimum wage does not just simply put more money in your pocket and thats it. It is not that simple. The implications of minimum wages are very complicated and extensive and when examined many of them are negative. Somebody has just implanted the idea in your head that raising the minimum wage will help the poor and people like you. It won't, you've been lied to.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3424274 - 11/29/04 05:52 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
Well I never had a college class on economics

But I think that the Government is the economy.

I just don't understand your logic and I see no basis for it in my experience dealing with business.


But I am trying





The government is most certainly NOT the economy. And the minimum wage discussion is utter drivel. It is set at a very low level and there is actually no reason for it to exist. I owned a company too. The illegals wouldn't work for minimum wage. With the current level of unemployment at around 5% nobody will take those wages and if you're stupid enough to you shouldn't reproduce, for sure. Minimum wage should most certainly not be set at a level that would support a family. It should be set at a level that would discourage the starting of a family, if that's all you can make. It's essentially a device to protect children and retards.

I doubt that anyone willing to work for minimum wage is unemployed. I also doubt that anyone who is working for minimum wage isn't looking for another job. The whole argument is a straw man.
There are plenty of jobs in construction labor that go begging around here for $10 an hour, cash, plus lunch.


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InvisibleJohn
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: newuser1492]
    #3424312 - 11/29/04 05:58 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

they have a set number of hours they HAVE to let me work a week so no. they actually just hired two more employees which we absolutly do not need in fact we were already over staffed before that, i really don't get it and it pisses me off as now we have to train these kids (mind you i work in a lab with very caustic/dangerous chems ect.) and with the money they're paying these fucks they could have raised our pay. the school has a lot of money to throw away i guess? the student government at my school has access to money in the millions. :shocked:

d33p
I know with raised minimum wage it makes it harder on small business owners and there might be job outsourcing to state that haven't enacted the dollar wage ect. nobody told me anything, in fact i had no idea about the raising of m/w until i went to vote and saw it on the ballot and haven't heard much since except that it passed. all I know is that me and the people I'm surrounded by the raise of m/w will be a positive and human are by nature self-serving.


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There's a thin line between sanity and insanity... and I just snorted it.

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InvisibleJohn
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: John]
    #3424334 - 11/29/04 06:03 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

With the current level of unemployment at around 5% nobody will take those wages and if you're stupid enough to you shouldn't reproduce, for sure.




ala ignorance. sorry not all of us have nothing better to do than lug around a hammer all day. some have more important obligations (aka school) but still need to be able to survive. mind you most entry level college students such as myself have absolutly nothing going for them in terms of good paying, flexible hour jobs.


--------------------
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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3424380 - 11/29/04 06:12 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)


There are plenty of jobs in construction labor that go begging around here for $10 an hour, cash, plus lunch.

Where do you live? The economy in my area is SHIT. When the local WalMart opened, I think almost a thousand people showed up for six-seven dollar an hour jobs.

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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3424391 - 11/29/04 06:14 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
. " It should be set at a level that would discourage the starting of a family, if that's all you can make. It's essentially a device to protect children and retards. "

THIS IS THE WILDEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD WOW WOW WOW :shocked:fucknickle

"I doubt that anyone willing to work for minimum wage is unemployed."

AND THIS IS SO FAR FROM THE REAL WORLD I THINK YOU OWN A VERY VERY SMALL COMPANY WITH 1 EMPLOYEE fucknuckle


  "I also doubt that anyone who is working for minimum wage isn't looking for another job.  The whole argument is a straw man.
There are plenty of jobs in construction labor that go begging around here for $10 an hour, cash, plus lunch. "

WHAT DO YOU THINK JUST ANYONE CAN DO CONSTRUCTION? THINK AGAIN fucknuckle







The complete lack of real experience in here is killing me :frown: fucknuckle


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

Edited by Fucknuckle (11/29/04 06:32 PM)

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: John]
    #3424402 - 11/29/04 06:15 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)


they have a set number of hours they HAVE to let me work a week so no. they actually just hired two more employees which we absolutly do not need in fact we were already over staffed before that, i really don't get it

EVERYWHERE now employs a shitload of part-time employees so nobody get near 40 hours a week. The reason they do this is they don't want to pay overtime or be sued to provide benefits to full-time people.

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Anonymous

Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3424460 - 11/29/04 06:30 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

things are different depending on where you area. when i lived in bucks county, no one paid minimum wage. my first part-time bullshit job that i got while i was in high school paid six bucks an hour when i started. there, the market value for even the cheapest kind of labor was greater than $5.15, and the minimum wage really had no effect at all. it's pretty easy for just about anyone to find work there.

where i live now, the situation is different. the market value for unskilled labor here is below the minimum wage. this is reflected in the fact that almost all part-time unskilled positions start at minimum wage and it's pretty hard to find a job even at that. here, the minimum wage causes problems in the labor market... things are a little more expensive, and it's harder to find a job, than it should be. the only ones who benefit are those who are able to snag a minimum-wage position, and it's at the cost of everyone else. i know a few people who would be quite willing to work for less than the minimum wage but can't find a job.

Edited by mushmaster (11/30/04 09:48 AM)

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InvisibleJohn
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3424466 - 11/29/04 06:32 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

yeah but we wern't aloud to work full-time before they decided to hire 2 new people anyway. and we do get benefits in the way of if i ever has an emergency i can go to the teaching hospital and get free emergency care. dental work is real cheap though the school ect. i even get a huge discount on vet work which came in real handy this weekend. also we have sick and vaction pay. i don't get it.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3424504 - 11/29/04 06:38 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)


I know a few people who would be quite willing to work for less than the minimum wage but can't find a job


Welcome to Pennsyl-fucking-vania. Home of one of the shittiest economies on earth(second only to a few African countries currently embroiled in civil wars).

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: John]
    #3424526 - 11/29/04 06:43 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

John said:
Quote:

With the current level of unemployment at around 5% nobody will take those wages and if you're stupid enough to you shouldn't reproduce, for sure.




ala ignorance. sorry not all of us have nothing better to do than lug around a hammer all day. some have more important obligations (aka school) but still need to be able to survive. mind you most entry level college students such as myself have absolutly nothing going for them in terms of good paying, flexible hour jobs.




Nothing better to do than lug around a hammer all day? Go fuck yourself. More important things to do like go to school? Kiss my ass if you think that anybody other than yourself and/or your parents owes you anything in terms of your own support after you turn 18. I lugged around a hammer when I went to college. I'm a contractor, not a psychologist, today because I had the good sense to lug that hammer when I was in college.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3424551 - 11/29/04 06:48 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

There are plenty of jobs in construction labor that go begging around here for $10 an hour, cash, plus lunch.

Where do you live? The economy in my area is SHIT. When the local WalMart opened, I think almost a thousand people showed up for six-seven dollar an hour jobs.




Westchester county NY. If you can't find work where you are move


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3424568 - 11/29/04 06:50 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)


I lugged around a hammer when I went to college. I'm a contractor, not a psychologist, today because I had the good sense to lug that hammer when I was in college.

Psychology!?!? Oh god, that's almost as bad of a major as "Communications". I know people with Psychology degrees who work as cashiers and waitresses.

Isn't it weird how the "trades"(building houses, fixing stuff, doing electrical work, machinists, etc...) require only a year or two of school, seem to pay more than jobs that college graduates get, and are much more secure?

Edited by RandalFlagg (11/29/04 06:51 PM)

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3424588 - 11/29/04 06:53 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)


If you can't find work where you are move

I run my own business over the internet, so I actually do reasonably well and my business is not dependent upon the local economy. It does get depressing when I see a lot of empty storefronts downtown and a lot of people on welfare.

Edited by RandalFlagg (11/29/04 06:54 PM)

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InvisibleJohn
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3424591 - 11/29/04 06:54 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

uh yeah chill. how many construction jobs have postions open after 5pm? yeah. my parents don't support me at all, all i have is a father and he is in worse finacial shape than I. if you consider good sense me dropping classes so i can work construction well i don't know what to tell you. i can't take night classes because most classes i'm taking aren't offered at night. you're a contractor making how much a year compared to a psychologist pay? or in terms of my major, how many countrys have you traveled to recently and what research have you done in the field of enthnobotany/medicine or other research to help humans?


--------------------
There's a thin line between sanity and insanity... and I just snorted it.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3424610 - 11/29/04 06:56 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
. " It should be set at a level that would discourage the starting of a family, if that's all you can make. It's essentially a device to protect children and retards. "

THIS IS THE WILDEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD WOW WOW WOW :shocked:fucknickle

"I doubt that anyone willing to work for minimum wage is unemployed."

AND THIS IS SO FAR FROM THE REAL WORLD I THINK YOU OWN A VERY VERY SMALL COMPANY WITH 1 EMPLOYEE fucknuckle
I put ads in the paper AND NOBODY CALLS.  "Salary commensurate with experience" is how it reads.  If you can't find a construction job MOVE HERE

  "I also doubt that anyone who is working for minimum wage isn't looking for another job.  The whole argument is a straw man.
There are plenty of jobs in construction labor that go begging around here for $10 an hour, cash, plus lunch. "

WHAT DO YOU THINK JUST ANYONE CAN DO CONSTRUCTION? THINK AGAIN fucknuckle
Pretty much anyone can do laboring construction jobs







The complete lack of real experience in here is killing me :frown: fucknuckle




My "real experience" is that I can't find employees.  At any price.  That's why the illegal Eastern Europeans and the South Americans own construction here.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: John]
    #3424633 - 11/29/04 07:00 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

John said:
uh yeah chill. how many construction jobs have postions open after 5pm? yeah. my parents don't support me at all, all i have is a father and he is in worse finacial shape than I. if you consider good sense me dropping classes so i can work construction well i don't know what to tell you. i can't take night classes because most classes i'm taking aren't offered at night. you're a contractor making how much a year compared to a psychologist pay? or in terms of my major, how many countrys have you traveled to recently and what research have you done in the field of enthnobotany/medicine or other research to help humans?




Do you think you have a right to an education beyond the 12th grade? You have a right to pay for one. That is all. The business world has absolutely no obligation to provide you with a subsidy for it. Every hour you work is taken away from someone more grateful for it and who needs it more.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3424672 - 11/29/04 07:07 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

I lugged around a hammer when I went to college. I'm a contractor, not a psychologist, today because I had the good sense to lug that hammer when I was in college.

Psychology!?!? Oh god, that's almost as bad of a major as "Communications". I know people with Psychology degrees who work as cashiers and waitresses.

Isn't it weird how the "trades"(building houses, fixing stuff, doing electrical work, machinists, etc...) require only a year or two of school, seem to pay more than jobs that college graduates get, and are much more secure?




I never looked at college as trade school. If you think that the "trades" require only a year or two of school you are very disrespectful. Mostly they don't require any school, just doing. I'm a master carpenter by trade but I know pretty much everything and am a construction supervisor mostly. It's been 30 years and I'm still learning stuff. The people who own the construction companies deserve a lot more respect than they get from college kids, as do master craftsmen. Trust me, I've been both.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3424738 - 11/29/04 07:22 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)


If you think that the "trades" require only a year or two of school you are very disrespectful.

What I meant is that the actual schooling only takes a year or so. That gets your foot in the door and you are expected to continually learn and work. Anybody who is very knowledgable about any subject is deserving of respect...because they worked hard to achieve that knowledge.

Trade schools get right to the nitty gritty of a trade. Colleges make you take a bunch of useless shit(art classes, "diversity focused" classes, etc..) that has nothing to do with your major.

Trade school graduates I know all earn over 20$ an hour. College graduates I know all live at home with their parents and are unemployed or are working for $15,000-$20,000 a year(if they are lucky).

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InvisibleJohn
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3424770 - 11/29/04 07:26 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Do you think you have a right to an education beyond the 12th grade? You have a right to pay for one. That is all.




i believe everyone should have the right to education after 12th for as long as they are productive but that isn't the case and i accept that. should education be limited only to those who's parents baby them until they're 30? or should i have to save up for 15 years before i go to school and by the time i get my degree lose jobs to younger people who's parents paid for everything?


--------------------
There's a thin line between sanity and insanity... and I just snorted it.

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InvisibleJohn
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: John]
    #3424802 - 11/29/04 07:29 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Colleges make you take a bunch of useless shit(art classes, "diversity focused" classes, etc..) that has nothing to do with your major.




i've learned a lot in my useless shit classes, though they for the most part have nothing to do with my major isn't the more knowledge the better? i mean austic people can be extremly good at one thing but that's it. would you rather be autistic or 'normal'?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: John]
    #3424822 - 11/29/04 07:32 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I've been exactly where you are. Living off of Ramen noodles, watching all of your fellow college kids fly around in new cars that their parents bought them, and having nothing. It sucks. But it builds character. You will be much more prepared to deal with the real world than people who have everything handed to them.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: John]
    #3424852 - 11/29/04 07:36 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)


i've learned a lot in my useless shit classes, though they for the most part have nothing to do with my major isn't the more knowledge the better?

I was at a small college that did not offer a lot of classes. So when it came time to take a "diversity focused" class i.e. any class that sounds politically correct, I had a choice between Feminism 101 and African American Studies 101. No thanks!!

Most of the classes had a Left-wing leaning bias, which was not conducive to me because I am hostile to the Left. I got annoyed because I was there to learn engineering. I was not there to read an essay from some Marxist and write an essay about his essay.

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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3424860 - 11/29/04 07:37 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I have always believed that in order to graduate, college students should be required to live off min wage for a full year without any classes or help from mommy and learn the ropes of the real life.

That will make some changes in this world. Just wait until they get to elected offices. Yeah shit would happen then


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3427196 - 11/30/04 09:39 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Economics in One Lesson

There isn't an economist in his right mind that
will defend minimum wage laws.

Read the book, it's written such that even someone
of your caliber could understand it.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/det...ks&n=507846


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Anonymous

Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: afoaf]
    #3427224 - 11/30/04 09:45 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

highly adbridged version of that gem here: http://www.word-gems.com/wealth.hazlitt.html

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3427233 - 11/30/04 09:48 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I think it may have been you that I owe the thanks
for suggesting that book.

I'm trying to get my wife to read it now after we had
a discussion about the mandatory medical coverage
bill that was up here in cali.

it's an easy and illuminating read.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3427764 - 11/30/04 12:54 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Sounds like horseshit to me:

The first thing that happens, for example, when a law is passed that no one shall be paid less than $50 for a forty-hour week is that no one who is not worth $50 a week to an employer will be employed at all.

So Nike would fire everyone if they had to pay 10 bucks a day minimum wage instead of 1 buck a day?

Of course they wouldn't. They'd simply make do with making an absolutely gigantic profit instead of an astronomical one.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3427805 - 11/30/04 01:01 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

they wouldn't fire everyone, but the size of their labor force would shrink. it's about the rule of diminishing marginal utility. each additional hour of labor purchased is worth a little bit less to the company than the one before it. a company will continue hiring until the wage they have to pay for additional labor is equal to the marginal utility that labor provides. this is how they determine how much labor to buy. you set the price of labor higher, and this point is reached earlier.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3427875 - 11/30/04 01:23 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

but the size of their labor force would shrink

Why shrink the workforce? There'd still be more than enough swill in the trough for the directors even if they had to pay the minimum wage.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3427896 - 11/30/04 01:29 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Why shrink the workforce?

because they aren't going to buy labor for more than it is worth to them.

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3427932 - 11/30/04 01:36 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

more than enough is not the american way...maximization is.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3427953 - 11/30/04 01:42 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

because they aren't going to buy labor for more than it is worth to them.

But the minimum wage would still be nothing to them. What else are they going to do? Close the factories where they have to pay a buck fifty a day and...move back to the America where they'd have to pay a real wage?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3427955 - 11/30/04 01:44 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

But the minimum wage would still be nothing to them.

see if you can follow me here: they aren't going to buy labor for more than it is worth to them.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3427960 - 11/30/04 01:45 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

And paying 2 bucks a day is still worth it to them. The profit margins arn't that tight. Y'follow?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3427987 - 11/30/04 01:53 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
but the size of their labor force would shrink

Why shrink the workforce? There'd still be more than enough swill in the trough for the directors even if they had to pay the minimum wage.



If the board of directors has to choose between hiring fewer people or taking a pay cut, which do you think they're more likely to do?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3427990 - 11/30/04 01:53 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

And paying 2 bucks a day is still worth it to them.

and you know this how?

what business school did you attend? when was the last time you viewed nike's accounting records? have you seen their quarterly report? have you ever seen a quarterly report?

here is how it works. for just about everything, the more of it you have, the less useful additional amounts of it are. if i didn't have any forks in my kitchen, it would be very useful to have one so that i could eat. if i were to buy a second fork, it would be a little less useful than the first, but then i could eat with one more person, or not have to do dishes quite as often and that's good... and so on. eventually i'd reach a point where any more forks would be useless to me. after than, they'd even become a liability (nowhere to store them).

let's say that forks cost a dollar. it makes sense to continue buying forks until any additional forks would be worth less to me than a dollar. i'd be willing to pay a dollar for the first fork. probably the second too. maybe i'd buy 10 or so. if forks cost 10 dollars, i'd probably just buy one or two.

it is the same exact situation with labor.

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3427999 - 11/30/04 01:54 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

too many wasted words...

nike should only be in business to break even, that is all.

shareholders and lendors be damned!

profits are sin.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3428037 - 11/30/04 02:03 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

and you know this how?

Because Nike spends $650 million a year just on marketing, nearly 10 times what it would cost the company to double the wages of all its Indonesian workers.

With turnovers of 9 billion dollars and a CEO worth 5.2 billion. You think they're gonna struggle paying $2.50 a day? Be serious.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3428064 - 11/30/04 02:11 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

You think they're gonna struggle paying $2.50 a day? Be serious.

let's say that they've got a factory in indonesia and they are paying a buck an hour. they employ 100 people. the reason that they employ 100 people, and not 50, and not 150, is because at a wage rate of a dollar an hour, that is the most efficient amount of labor to buy. that last 100th person they hired could provide labor worth a dollar an hour to them. the 99th was worth more than a dollar an hour. a 101st person's labor would be less than a dollar an hour. maybe the 90th person they hired could provide labor worth $1.25 an hour to them. if there was a minimum wage of $1.25, they'd hire 90 people. it wouldn't make sense to hire 100, because any additional hiring over 90 people would result in a loss. could the company handle it? sure, probably. are they going to be less efficient for the sake of employing more people? hell no.

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3428720 - 11/30/04 04:20 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Welcome to Pennsyl-fucking-vania. Home of one of the shittiest economies on earth(second only to a few African countries currently embroiled in civil wars).




PA does suck, but check out the economy of northwest Alabama some time. It's not in good shape. Fortunately I've gotten wind of a few jobs here in PA that I should be able to make $12-18/hr.. put a few grand in the bank, go back down to 'bama and finish college. yey.

Yes, college, 4-year college.. chemistry, though. thinking might switch my other major from physics to education though, would like to teach.. but either way, chemistry/physics or chemistry/education, it's a very employable degree.

Quote:

let's say that they've got a factory in indonesia and they are paying a buck an hour. they employ 100 people. the reason that they employ 100 people, and not 50, and not 150, is because at a wage rate of a dollar an hour, that is the most efficient amount of labor to buy. that last 100th person they hired could provide labor worth a dollar an hour to them. the 99th was worth more than a dollar an hour. a 101st person's labor would be less than a dollar an hour. maybe the 90th person they hired could provide labor worth $1.25 an hour to them. if there was a minimum wage of $1.25, they'd hire 90 people. it wouldn't make sense to hire 100, because any additional hiring over 90 people would result in a loss. could the company handle it? sure, probably. are they going to be less efficient for the sake of employing more people? hell no.




That sounds like it makes a lot of sense, until you realize the amount of cash CEOs pull in.
I don't think the most retarded delusional patholigical liar could even try to justify such salaries. They do it because they can, at the expense of the company. Indeed there's a fair number of companies that have been driven into the ground by the selfish salaries of the executives, constantly paying themselves more and more even as the company's profits are going down.

Mush what you're saying makes sense if you're out for the good of the company -- however, many decisions are not based on the good of the company but rather the good of the self. They pay them little because it raises the amount of money they can pay themself.


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OfflineDeepDish
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3428737 - 11/30/04 04:22 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Nike employs 100 people, because 100 people can produce enough shoes to fully saturate Nike's share of the market. Using your economic model if the wage dropped, lets say to 10 cents and hour, Nike could then employ 1000 people. Doesn't really work like that. Nike can only produce a certain number of shoes, because they are only able to saturate the market to a given extent. This is why Nike's marketing divsion is paid so much more then their labor division. The marketing division must convince people that Nike shoes are far superior then any other brand. If the Indonesian wages went up to a dollar twenty five, Nike would still employ 100 workers.

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Anonymous

Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3428882 - 11/30/04 04:49 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

that isn't how the corporate structure works at all. executives do not set their own salaries and they sure as hell don't get to pocket company capital. that is called embezzlement. executives make their money from dividends and a salary set by a board of directors representing the shareholders of a company. leading a business well will result in more income from each. embezzling will result in neither.

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Anonymous

Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: DeepDish]
    #3428939 - 11/30/04 05:04 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

the fact that as more shoes are produced they become more difficult to sell is factored into the diminishing marginal utility of hiring more workers to produce more shoes.

if the market was saturated with 100 workers making shoes, of course they wouldn't hire 1000 people, no matter what the wage. as their market share became saturated there would be a very abrubt drop in the marginal utility of making more shoes and buying more labor to do so.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3430788 - 12/01/04 12:11 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

that isn't how the corporate structure works at all

How many "corporate structures" have you been around?

executives do not set their own salaries

Often they do.

executives make their money from dividends and a salary set by a board of directors representing the shareholders of a company.

It makes sense for the board of directors to award each other enormous salaries. That way when it comes time for your salary increase everyone else awards you an enormous salary too. Anyone who sits on a board of directors and says "You know, I don't want to give you a 155% rise, I'd rather give the workers 0.5%" will soon find himself out in the cold.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3430797 - 12/01/04 12:13 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

the fact that as more shoes are produced they become more difficult to sell is factored into the diminishing marginal utility of hiring more workers to produce more shoes.

Mush your arguments are ludicrous. There are shoe companies in america turning profits and paying american workers 10-20 times as much as south east asian workers get paid. There is plenty of room for an increase in wages. The only factor "stopping" it is the simple greed of the directors.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3432311 - 12/01/04 10:53 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

You are mistaken, the greed of the corporate directors is not the only thing stopping it. People are voting with their dollars that they support it. People are agreeing to work for low wages. I would say that this economic democracy in action and shows the will of the people, the leftist elites be damned. The companies would not be running their businesses the same way if masses of people weren't buying their products. The companies would not be paying low wages if workers wouldn't agree to work until they were compensated with higher wages.

Shouldn't you be railing against the consumers who support these companies? Shouldn't you be out trying to find jobs or creating employment for those who you think don't earn enough to meet your first world standards of income while living with third world expenses? Why don't you start a shoe company? With your vast and expert level business knowledge and years of experience, I'm sure that you could beat the snot out of the competition.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Anonymous

Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3432440 - 12/01/04 11:28 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

the quantity of goods and services we buy is determined by the law of diminishing utility. there is a reason that people buy 6 or 7 pairs of pants instead of 50. there is a reason that people buy 10 or so dinner plates instead of 100.

as we get more of something, additional amounts become less valuable to us. eventually we reach a point where continuing to buy something at its current price becomes irrational and we stop. if i don't have any pants, i'll gladly pay $30 for a pair of pants. if i've already got 8 pairs, i probably won't.

if the cost of something increases, this point is reached earlier and at lower quantities. you may not do this consciously, but everyone does it. in the business world, it's done intentionally as part of a reasoned plan. they don't pull hiring quotas out of a hat you know.

i'm not even going to argue over whether a company 'could' afford to pay its employees more because every business is different and it's really irrelevent. people are not in the business of giving out money. they are in the business of making a profit. the question is not "can they afford to pay employees more?" but "can we expect them to buy labor for more than it is worth to them, and see a reduced profit, so that they can employ more people at better wages?"

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3433127 - 12/01/04 02:29 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

the question is not "can they afford to pay employees more?"

Because they obviously can without laying anyone off.

"can we expect them to buy labor for more than it is worth to them, and see a reduced profit, so that they can employ more people at better wages?"

Putting it another way, can we expect immensely rich people not to award themselves stratospheric payrises while their workers struggle to feed their children.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3433129 - 12/01/04 02:30 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

There are shoe companies in america turning profits and paying american workers 10-20 times as much as south east asian workers get paid.




who and where?


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Anonymous

Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3433247 - 12/01/04 02:52 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Because they obviously can without laying anyone off.

yes, but the real question is, "will they?".

and the answer is, "no". they aren't going to hire workers they don't need, and suffer a loss in profits, so that they can provide employment at better wages for more people. it just ain't gonna happen, and i think you know this.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3435728 - 12/02/04 12:23 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

they aren't going to hire workers they don't need

We're not talking about hiring workers they don't need, we're talking about paying the people you're making your fortune off a living wage.

it just ain't gonna happen, and i think you know this.

It's not gonna happen by choice of the directors that's for sure. It's going to happen how it happened in the west - unions, strikes, workers struggling and dying for freedom, their childrens rights to education and decent working conditions. 150 years ago you would have been saying "Western workers will never be paid a decent wage and I think you know this".

The only trouble is I'm sure the capitalists have learned from the mistakes they made in the west that led to people having decent working conditions and lives. It's not going to be easy for the third world worker I'll grant you that.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3436454 - 12/02/04 08:45 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

We're not talking about hiring workers they don't need

ok, to be more accurate, we are talking about purchasing labor for more than it is worth to them. it's still not gonna happen.

i'm not talking about right and wrong or should and shouldn't. i'm talking about how people will respond to a forced increase in the price of labor. they will purchase less of it.

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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3436496 - 12/02/04 08:57 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

What happens if a company is at maximum efficiency with a set number of workers. For simplicities sake let's say Nike has 100 workers. Those 100 workers are paid $1/hour and produce 50,000 shoes. The market is saturated at 50,000 shoes so any increase or decrease in shoe production would lose Nike money. They can't increase the price of shoes because they have to stay competitive with Reebok. So in this hypothetical situtation Nike has 100 workers that they absolutely need to pull in maximum profit since they have to produce 50,000 shoes, no more no less, at at specific price that cannot be lowered.

In that situation if the government forced Nike to pay the workers $2/hour instead of $1/hour what can change? Nike still has to produce exactly 50,000 shoes. Nike still has to sell the shoes at a price equal to Reebok. Nike cannot produce more shoes from less employees because they are at peak efficiency. In that case the workers would have to work the same amount of time and thus make more money. The extra pay would have to come out of the companies earnings.

The same type of situation could happen at say a local Subway. The Subway has to have a certain number of people scheduled and that cannot drop. If it did drop they wouldn't be able to handle all the customers so they would lose money. In that case too if minimum wage was increased the workers would not lose hours and their pay would go up.

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Anonymous

Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: newuser1492]
    #3436579 - 12/02/04 09:22 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

What happens if a company is at maximum efficiency with a set number of workers. For simplicities sake let's say Nike has 100 workers. Those 100 workers are paid $1/hour and produce 50,000 shoes. The market is saturated at 50,000 shoes so any increase or decrease in shoe production would lose Nike money.

the law of diminishing marginal utility applies to nike's production of shoes as well. if they only made 1000 shoes, they could probably sell them to celebreties and sports stars for $1000 or more a peice. if they made 1,000,000,000,000 shoes, they'd have to give them away. as the market becomes saturated, it becomes less and less profitable for them to make shoes. they don't have to make 50,000, it's just that at the current price of all the inputs, that the most efficient number to make. if the price of inputs increase, they'll make less.

the subway doesn't have to have any people scheduled at all. it schedules people to work because they have paying customers and they need to hire people in order to do business. this is why they hire, and it is this that sets their demand for labor. why do they need a certain number of people?

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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3436609 - 12/02/04 09:37 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Hmm I guess it would depend on their market. If their shoe is marketed towards teenagers as an alternative to Reebok they need to compete with Reebok. If they produced less shoes they would lose sales because stores would run out of Nike and so people would buy an alternative brand. They could hire less people but they would lose business. Just as Subway could hire less people but they would lose customers.

Subway is a good example of a product whose price can change very little. Subway could make 10 sandwiches per day or as many as is required by the customers. It is doubtful that they could charge more money if they produced less sandwiches since the customers would simply shop elsewhere. In that situation the most profitable move is to produce as many sandwiches as are demanded by the customers. In that situation Subway has to hire enough people to fill the demand. If they require 10 employees to fill the demand then hiring less people would lose the company money. A raise of $1/hour would not result in less employees.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3436613 - 12/02/04 09:40 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

i'm talking about how people will respond to a forced increase in the price of labor. they will purchase less of it.

That depends if they can find cheaper labour anywhere else. If they can't then they'll have to pay the higher rate. Instead of being worth 5.2 billion, Knight might only end up being worth 4.2 billion.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3440972 - 12/03/04 03:25 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

executives do not set their own salaries and they sure as hell don't get to pocket company capital.




True, they don't set their own salary.. they just golf with the people that do.


And that's if there IS a board of directors. Those only exist in companies with stock that is primarily held by the public. If it's one person, they're just called the President of the company, and are basically god on earth.

And as I said there've been a fair number of companies I've been familiar with that have closed shop because they were bankrupted by excessive and constantly rising corporate salaries.
the one specific example I'm thinking of, the average worker took a paycut years ago to save the company, that after X years would bring them back to where they were supposed to be.. and long before those X years were up, the guys in the corner offices were patting themselves on the back so hard they decided they needed more money. Then, even despite rising profits, the company went belly-up. Too much of their money invested in paying the presidents.

and then there's the travesty of stock options for those driving the company. Nothing like turning things towards the shitter so it's easier to later double the stock price, after you've got your options locked in at a nice, super, shitty-low amount.


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revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
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Offlinekens0105
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #16603228 - 07/27/12 11:54 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

There is a supposed lack of jobs to go around, which makes it harder for the unemployed to get back to work. However, it might also be that what jobs there are don’t pay much, as fully one-quarter of private sector workers are estimated to make less than 10 dollars per hour.

Raising the minimum wage is controversial. It is often asserted that forcing businesses to pay more in minimum wages will mean employers won’t be able to give workers enough hours and fewer jobs will be available to go around.

Edited by kens0105 (07/28/12 12:06 AM)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: kens0105]
    #16604500 - 07/28/12 07:09 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Nice. Your very first post here is to bump an 8 year old thread.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinevladtepes
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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #16637558 - 08/03/12 12:52 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Raising the minimum wage would just cause inflation because a 10 dollar bill would be more common... 8 dollar per hour now is the same value as 30 cents per hour 5 years ago or what ever the actual figures are.


--------------------
“If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on.”
― Terence McKenna

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