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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7419078 - 09/17/07 08:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

> then they're just goin to cut people's hours to even it out which doesn't really do much.

Actually, it does... many companies do not have to provide benefits, vacations, or sick leave for non-full time employees, at least where I live.

> Kinda shitty eh?

Yep... greed begets greed.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Seuss]
    #7419396 - 09/17/07 11:21 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> you can buy a car that will go for years fro 500 dollars and up.

Yes, you can... but as anybody that has done so knows, you end up putting three to four times as much money into upkeep than you did to purchase the thing. Cheap cars are cheap for a reason. Sometimes you get lucky and get "the widows" car, but usually it is cheap 'cause it is a piece of junk. You also have additional costs beyond the fixed price of the car; fuel, insurance, taxes, etc.




This is simply not true in most cases. As long as you have the car inspected for any faults before you buy it, many cars (particularly older oldsmobiles and hondas) will run until there is nothing left of them, and get better gas mileage than most new cars. You can buy a car for 1-3000 dollars and get all of the miles that you would get out of a 40 thousand dollar cadilac


Edited by xFrockx (09/17/07 11:22 AM)


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: xFrockx]
    #7421144 - 09/17/07 07:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You can buy a car for 1-3000 dollars and get all of the miles that you would get out of a 40 thousand dollar cadilac


I agree 100%. I delivered pizza for years off of a $2500 dollar car. I spent less than $500 a year average on maintenance.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: DieCommie]
    #7422444 - 09/18/07 04:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

let's end multinational corporations, as they are a violation of the people's sovereignity.




:wtf:


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: wilshire]
    #7422868 - 09/18/07 09:39 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
There is and always will be more of a supply of labor than there is a demand for it.

fsupply and demand are not fixed amounts. they are each represented by a curve - quantity as a function of price. at the market price of a good, supply equals demand. there is a surplus of unskilled labor because there is a price floor on it.





It sounds to me like you are using fancy words to agree with me. "There is a surplus of unskilled labor" is basically what I was saying.

Quote:

Just because there would be an adequate supply of labor if everyone worked at .25 cents an hour doesn't mean that it should be allowed.

you mean adequate demand?




:rolleyes: I will make my statement as clear as possible. Then you can argue with the content as oppossed to trying to school me in the linguistics of economics 101:

Let's say that every employer pays 25 cents an hour and somehow is able to have all of the employees needed to run whatever business/organization they own. All of the needs for labor are met. My point was that in this hypothetical situation the fact that all of the needs for labor are met is not a sufficient end. This situation should not be allowed, and if that means that the government needs to create a minimum wage, so be it. If it means that the workers need to go on strike and organize a union, so be it. If it means that there needs to be a communist revolution, so be it. Because history has shown that when employers are allowed to exploit their workers to the point where everyone  is getting paid but no one is getting by, the workers will take it into their own hands. I'm not condoning it on philosophical grounds, just pointing out to you that it happens. Minimum wage can function as a protection against such extremes.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7422976 - 09/18/07 10:21 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If you aren't skilled enough to earn more than $0.25/hour you shouldn't be paid more than that.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlinenakors_junk_bag
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: badchad]
    #7422981 - 09/18/07 10:22 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Skill deosn't set the market price for labor, supply does. Why does it have to be explained so many times?!?!?!

if there is an abundance of a certain skill set then the value of that skill diminshes. If fifty thousand people studied brick making, a skill, but the demand for bricks only supported twenty thousand brick makers, then the the price of theri knowledge isn't as valuable. They should learn another trade, while studying another trade they will probably need certain things for survival. Do I need to spell those things out? It wouldn't do for 60 percent of the population to starve to deth cause the demands for brick diminshed. When next year the supply may very well not meet the demand.


Edited by nakors_junk_bag (09/18/07 10:29 AM)


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #7423027 - 09/18/07 10:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

nakors_junk_bag said:
Skill deosn't set the market price for labor, supply does. Why does it have to be explained so many times?!?!?!





There is usually a large supply of unskilled labor though, by definition.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlinenakors_junk_bag
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: badchad]
    #7423046 - 09/18/07 10:38 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yes there is, and unskilled laborers need to eat tot. There is also usually a large supply ofunskilled work to be done. Like cleaning up construction sites, hauling brick and mud. Lawn care, flipping burgers at mcd's, if people couldn't count on at least enough money to maintain homeostasis, they probably wouldn't even bother going to work, thus a billion fat greedy middle level managers would starve to death on their lunch breaks. Now, if the demand for labor is met, then surely not everyone is going to get work, right? So, it seems to me that enusring food money to those that do get work, is better than letting the market decide and the unworking and the working alike are hungry, or homeless, or both. So a reasonable minimum wage is conducive to a healthy society. lest the people starve and as someone said REVOLT.

IMHO


--------------------
Asshole


Edited by nakors_junk_bag (09/18/07 10:47 AM)


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: badchad]
    #7423093 - 09/18/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
If you aren't skilled enough to earn more than $0.25/hour you shouldn't be paid more than that.




Can you give an example of a job in which someone's skill is equivalent to $.25 an hour? Can you give an example of a job in which someone's skill is equivalent to billions of dollars a year?

I don't mean to be a dick, but your point is entirely meaningless.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7423205 - 09/18/07 11:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I didn't necessarily mean to use literal values, rather I was illustrating a point. I believe wages should follow supply and demand. In general, the training and aquisition of skills requires effort and time, which limits demand. Thus, the two are linked.

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Can you give an example of a job in which someone's skill is equivalent to $.25 an hour?




A greeter at Wal-Mart who serves little to no purpose and requires no training.

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Can you give an example of a job in which someone's skill is equivalent to billions of dollars a year?




An emergency room physician. How much is your life worth?


Quote:

gluke bastid said:I don't mean to be a dick, but your point is entirely meaningless.




meaningless? What do you think wages should be based on? or do you think we should all receive a flat rate regardless of what job we do?

So


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: badchad]
    #7423381 - 09/18/07 11:54 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think the solution to this problem is.. take the chicks that are 22 years old and have 20 kids... and slap a chastity belt on them. Then minimum wage WILL be enough to pay for everyone's expenses.



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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: badchad]
    #7423408 - 09/18/07 11:59 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Can you give an example of a job in which someone's skill is equivalent to $.25 an hour?




A greeter at Wal-Mart who serves little to no purpose and requires no training.






Oh snap.

Yea that's another thing that pisses me off about Walmart.

They cut the hours of the ppl working the registers to save money, screwing the customers so they have to wait in line for 2 hours....

Yet they have the most useless people on staff like greeters. I think walmart just scouts for the omst retarded person in the cities they infect.. and give them greeter jobs for the sole purpose of being able to say "See? You can't be mad at us! We just gave your village idiot a job. Accept us! LOVE US! ASSIMILATE OR DIEEEE MUTHAFUCKAAZ"

BTW... If you guys get a chance.. check out the documentary "Walmart: The high cost of low prices".. even if you think anti walmart ppl are idiots. It does start off with the usual tear jerking "I Lost my job cuz of walmart" crap, but then it gets really interesting when they start interviewing former managers, union busters, executives that defected. A former exec admits Walmart has a policy that if anyone in the store mentions the word UNION, they're supposed to call this hotline... and then within 24 HOURS walmart sends a union buster via PRIVATE PLANE to relieve that store's manager of duty... also shows how whenever there is a store vote to unionize, Walmart will DILLUTE the vote by hiring 50 dummy employees just for a day and then fire them.

I'm not a big fan of unions, but that's pretty fucked up. How can you possibly get any more anti-democracy.



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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7424085 - 09/18/07 02:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Can you give an example of a job in which someone's skill is equivalent to $.25 an hour?

i don't think anyone would be getting paid 25 cents an hour absent a minimum wage. that's partially my point.

i think it's counterproductive to create a minimum wage for 2 reasons.

the first is that it directly creates unemployment by setting an artificial price floor above the market clearing price - at this price there are more willing sellers than willing buyers. the unemployed do not contribute to society, are a drag on social services, are more likely to commit crimes, and are not acquiring work experience that could make them more valuable. a low paying job is better than low paying government checks.

the second is that as it reduces the available jobs for unskilled workers, it also increases the number of unskilled workers trying to get these jobs, because it reduces the incentive to acquire job skills to move to higher paying positions. this clearly exacerbates the problem. so the minimum wage, in several different ways, increases the problem it's intended to address.


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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: wilshire]
    #7424139 - 09/18/07 02:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
he second is that as it reduces the available jobs for unskilled workers, it also increases the number of unskilled workers trying to get these jobs, because it reduces the incentive to acquire job skills to move to higher paying positions. this clearly exacerbates the problem. so the minimum wage, in several different ways, increases the problem it's intended to address.




explain to me how minimum wage impacts the demand for workers, or as you stated it, reduces the available jobs for unskilled workers

Amount of work to be done is based largely on the need, growth of a particular area, not price of labor except in the most round about of ways.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #7424310 - 09/18/07 03:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Amount of work to be done is based largely on the need, growth of a particular area, not price of labor except in the most round about of ways.




The amount of work to BE done may be based on need and growth, etc., but that work won't GET done if the business can't afford to hire someone to do it.

Business owners aren't idiots, generally. They usually know how much money they have available. If the minimum wage is $280 (plus benefits, don't forget) per week for a fulltime employee, and the amount on hand is just $195 a week, then that business won't (can't, actually) hire a fulltime worker, no matter how much work there is to be done.



Phred


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Offlinenakors_junk_bag
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Phred]
    #7424344 - 09/18/07 03:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

Amount of work to be done is based largely on the need, growth of a particular area, not price of labor except in the most round about of ways.




The amount of work to BE done may be based on need and growth, etc., but that work won't GET done if the business can't afford to hire someone to do it.

Business owners aren't idiots, generally. They usually know how much money they have available. If the minimum wage is $280 (plus benefits, don't forget) per week for a fulltime employee, and the amount on hand is just $195 a week, then that business won't (can't, actually) hire a fulltime worker, no matter how much work there is to be done.



Phred




If the business onwer can't afford to do it the price of the job obviously rises. Thus providing the business owner with the money to perform the proper tasks. Its a delicate balance, because the obvious windfall is the decrease in the value of the dollar, over millions of hours of work and the rising costs of doing business. The whoile econmy would be impacted, that is why the experts figure out where that precarious spot is that allows both sides to co-exist without destroying the entier house of cards.

Also it is a poorly run business if they have not sufficient funds to finish the job.I don't see how your point is relevant.


--------------------
Asshole


Edited by nakors_junk_bag (09/18/07 03:47 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #7424458 - 09/18/07 04:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If the business onwer can't afford to do it the price of the job obviously rises. Thus providing the business owner with the money to perform the proper tasks.




I'm not following this at all. Can you reword it? I've spent three minutes trying to puzzle it out and I can't for the life of me follow your logic.

In almost any business of a certain size, there is always more work that CAN be done -- but only if the price is right.

For example, I was a bartender for several years. There were times when it was almost impossible to keep up with washing the dirty glasses. It would have been of great benefit to be able to hire some kid for X bucks a shift to wash the glasses and free up the bartender to do actual bartending work. Problem was, the law said we couldn't hire someone for X bucks a shift: we could only hire someone for X*1.7 bucks a shift. So the bartenders continued washing glasses -- even though there was no shortage of folks happy to wash glasses for X bucks a shift.

In the same bar, the bartenders doubled as disk jockeys. If we could have hired a disk jockey cheaply enough, we would have. But the benefit from hiring a DJ would maybe have been Y dollars a shift, and we only had 0.5*Y dollars available to work with. So no DJ.

I as a bartender washed glasses, played the music, mixed the drinks and handled the cash register. If there was no such thing as minimum wage, we would have had a separate employee to wash glasses, one to play the music, and one to run the cash. They wouldn't have made a lot of money, but they would have made some and would have received job experience and bartending tips to boot -- setting them up for a higher paying job when they decided to move on.

Instead, there was one employee making quite a bit more than minimum wage (because of all the extra duties he was saddled with) but delivering less than optimal performance in all four areas of responsibility when things got rushed.



Phred


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Offlinenakors_junk_bag
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Phred]
    #7424550 - 09/18/07 04:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

you are aware that in a tipped base atmosphere the miimum wage is drastically reduced?

I have spent my entire working life in the restaurant industry, aside fomr the year i laid block. It has almost always fallen to the bartenders to tender some care to the bar ware. If it was needed as much as you say it was, then the price of paying a glass washer would have been incorporated into the price of each and every measuremnet of product.

Thankfully there is a law of competition at play here. I will go to another bar where, the bar tender doesn't need someone to wash his glasses, thus eliminating the added costs.

I guess what I am saying is if there weren't other bars that could make do with less thrn you could charge more, amd pay for the added support.

It still doesn't negate the need to provide those poor menial souls with the unholy plight of swishing soap around in someone's wine glass with a certiam modicum of security against hunger pangs.

It also kind a sounds like your boss was a cheap fuck, and oh yeah, there were other bars that could work under the same parameters you were faced with, thus negating the need to pay extra business costs.

I think I said earlier that labor isn't depenedent the volume of money a job creates, it is entirely dependent on the need to get a job done. If theere was a real need for a hired worker to wash your glasses he would have been hireed regardless of the cost.


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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #7424585 - 09/18/07 04:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

what happens when the fistful of people who are willing to work for x dollars drives down the value of their labor to such an extent that even tho they work they still hunger? Now you have working people and non working people in the same state. that won't do. Then the people won't work and will be pissed off some asshole is working them for less money than the can survive with.


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