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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: numonkei]
#8731171 - 08/05/08 09:07 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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The rich may be richer, but this doesn't necessarily make the poor poorer. All it does is make the poor jealous.
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: numonkei]
#8731195 - 08/05/08 09:12 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Distribution of wealth has nothing to do with standard of living. If the rich make 10x more than they make now, the poor can still afford the same stuff and still have the same standard of living. This is because there is not a finite amount of wealth in the world. Wealth can be, and is, created. Political freedoms and economic freedom conspire together to increase everybody's standard of living; from the very poor to the very rich.
The majority of Americans have vast luxuries... refrigerators, microwaves, education, cars, computers, vacations, excess of clothes and shoes, alcohol, fast food, the list goes on. Your gonna argue that it was better in europe 500 years ago because everybody was equally poor, and equally miserable?
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The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
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Prisoner#1
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Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: DieCommie]
#8731229 - 08/05/08 09:28 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: The market is doing its job right now, and Americans have the highest standards of living in human history because of it.
Norway Sweden Canada Belgium Austrailia
they all have a better standard of living than the US, they all also have a higher minimum wage than the US, some almost double what the minimum in the US, our minimum wage isnt even on par with the rate of inflation in ireland 2004 minimum wage was over $11/hr US and it's a lower standard of living, in sweden it's 12.50, in australia it's almost $14/hr, we're not even close to being on par with most westernized countries and the cost of living is around the same so exactly how do we have the highest standard of living?
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Minimum wage is basically a pointless, "feel good" issue because its mostly teenage kids who earn minimum wage.
to be fair, inflation has outrun the living expenses of those that are earning minimum wage, currently in the US it should be around $12/hr in order to have kept up, it's fallen behind by a gross amount, it's not a feel good issue, it's an issue where americans are losing their asses, arent able to make the basics any more with single parent households, people tell me that a good paying job is $12/hr and by american standards it is, but with the comparison to the cost of living, it's on par where as many people are earning far less
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Only about 1% of American workers earn minimum wage (not counting tip employees who earn well over min. wage),
take the federal minimum wage, divide by 2, you've got the earnings of the vast majority of tipped employees, if they make no tips, sure it means they suck at their job but it also means they arent making the $12+/hr you'd like to believe, their employer has to make up for it and only pays the difference up to minimum wage
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And this is using the American poverty line which is $10,000 to $20,000 per year compared to the global moderate poverty line of $700 per year.
unfortunately comparison of a country like the US to one like uganda really doesnt work out well because of the costs of living, I mean when's the last time you saw a 1br apartment go for $30/mo
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4801540.stm I work in the internet cafe here in Arusha. I spend 12 hours working and earn 70usd per month. I paid 30usd on a one-bedroom apartment and food expenses per month is like 30usd. So I am always ruining out of money every month. The government should do something about this. Yussuf Allii, Arusha, Tanzania
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Even the In-N-Out burger shop near my place pays their kids $9/hr.
which probably isnt that far above the current minimum wage set by the state just as employees at fast food places earn around $6-$7/hr
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govt. housing, govt. subsidized health care and welfare.
lol... My mom had 4 kids, looked for subsidized housing, made $3/yr too much to qualify, they wouldnt approve her for food stamps or welfare to help her get by, again she still made just a few dollars too much... only $6000 per year, people I do know that did qualify for subsidized housing were put on a waiting list, sometimes as long as 2 years because everyone else is seeking the same and the vast majority of landlords will not rent for section 8 housing
maybe you should get out and talk to people, learn what it's really like and remember, it is the employer that set the pay rate, he can always find a warm body to fill the position, the employee has little say other than to complain about his wage
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Prisoner#1
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: DieCommie]
#8731261 - 08/05/08 09:38 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: The majority of Americans have vast luxuries... refrigerators, microwaves, education, cars, computers, vacations, excess of clothes and shoes, alcohol, fast food, the list goes on.
does that include the millions that used to have that stuff but now cant even find work, have lost their house, their car are living hand to mouth but still have a few bucks for alcohol so they can still have incentive to beat their kids?
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8731281 - 08/05/08 09:44 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Norway Sweden Canada Belgium Austrailia
The difference between their standard of living and ours is negligible. Many other countries are also practically tied with the US for standard of living... France, UK, Switzerland, Japan, S. Korea... they have all benefited from free markets. (I assume you are using the UN metric for standard of living, which ranks things like free health care higher than low taxes.)
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take the federal minimum wage, divide by 2, you've got the earnings of the vast majority of tipped employees, if they make no tips, sure it means they suck at their job but it also means they arent making the $12+/hr you'd like to believe, their employer has to make up for it and only pays the difference up to minimum wage
I have to say you dont know what your talking about here. I worked in tip jobs for a decade as a server and a pizza driver. My wife did the same as a server. Also my brother, and her brother also in tip jobs, as well as half my class in school. Nobody in a tip job makes makes anywhere close to minimum wage. As a pizza driver I averaged $15 an hour. At a shittie restaurant you make about the same. At a good restaurant where alcohol is served you make well over $20 per hour. These are all entry level jobs. If you have experience and work somewhere like the cheesecake factory, you make over $30/hr. Yea, they make min. wage if they dont get tipped, but that just doesnt happen. Its good pay, but its hard work. My body was more sore from working the night shift at IHOP than when I did construction in the 110 deg. heat.
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: DieCommie]
#8731286 - 08/05/08 09:46 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
does that include the millions that used to have that stuff but now cant even find work, have lost their house, their car are living hand to mouth but still have a few bucks for alcohol so they can still have incentive to beat their kids?
They should move to phoenix. Its not luxurious, but places are desperate for workers (which dispels your "he can always find a warm body to fill the position" theory). You can easily get over $10/hr here at entry level and rents are less than $500 a month.
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!

Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 2,500
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: DieCommie]
#8731291 - 08/05/08 09:46 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Your gonna argue that it was better in europe 500 years ago because everybody was equally poor, and equally miserable?
Hell no, not even close to better. These people threw feces out their window. You'd have to go to New Orleans to see this in the USA at this point.
But the distribution of wealth has reached a divide among the have's that is unprecedented in the modern world with all the advantages we have. While the guy down the street may have two toilets and a playstation, his counter part, the hedge-fund manager for example, has enough wealth that spending 8 million a day for every day for the rest of his/her life, could still retire with more than 10x most federal politicians will be able to expect to retire with.
The markets impede wealth as much as create it. When credit is given to someone who simply holds their name on the front of a bank building, while the brilliant inventor has his patented brain-child that changes the world repackaged and useless for economic viability, then there is a severe disconnect between the markets and the source of prosperity, be it relative or absolute.
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They should move to phoenix.
Is this assuming they can afford to drive ten miles to work? Much less than Phoenix? 10/hr means little when a dollar gets you so far as to be unable to afford to get to work.
And Milton Friedman is still an anti-person shitbird, whose theories should send Adam Smith doing cartwheels in his grave.
~Monk
Edited by numonkei (08/05/08 09:58 PM)
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: numonkei]
#8731314 - 08/05/08 09:51 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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The hedgefund manager being that rich doesn't make the guy with the playstation any poorer.
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!

Registered: 04/12/06
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Redstorm]
#8731333 - 08/05/08 09:56 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's not the point. The point is the extreme wealth divide. The kind of divide that has never before been known to such extents in any sort of democratic or supposedly humanistic state.
The kind of wealth divide that makes dictators pissed off and jealous. They feel like the poor guy in comparison, but with no playstation.
~Monk
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: numonkei]
#8731362 - 08/05/08 10:02 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Wrong, it is the point.
If it doesn't hurt the poorer party, what's the problem? Me being richer doesn't make you poorer. It's not an issue, end of story.
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Prisoner#1
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Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: DieCommie]
#8731532 - 08/05/08 10:34 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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DieCommie said: The difference between their standard of living and ours is negligible. Many other countries are also practically tied with the US for standard of living... France, UK, Switzerland, Japan, S. Korea... they have all benefited from free markets. (I assume you are using the UN metric for standard of living, which ranks things like free health care higher than low taxes.)
the standard of living is similar, the taxes are similar, in the US lower income earners pay about 50-60% out in taxes, 20% just in payroll alone, in canada it's around the same and they have the free health care, it's really not that much different else wherewe're number 6 and that takes into account for what ever magic words you want to try tossing out.
but their minimum wages are higher by a significant amount
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I have to say you dont know what your talking about here. Nobody in a tip job makes makes anywhere close to minimum wage. As a pizza driver I averaged $15 an hour.
I spent 3 years tending bar, several years waiting tables, for my local I know exactly what I'm talking about and you're right, my payroll check reflected $2.13/hr, that didnt include tips but as there's no federal minimum on tipping it really doesnt fall into the equation.
what was your hourly rate delivering pizza? minimum wage plus tips?
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At a shittie restaurant you make about the same. At a good restaurant where alcohol is served you make well over $20 per hour. These are all entry level jobs.
busboy and food runner are entry level jobs, and here you are tossing around figures as if you know exactly hat every waiter in ever restaurant earns, you're guessing
20 years ago I pulled $42/hr tending bar on the weekends, I made an average of $17/hr through the week, damned good money but a high volume bar in an upscale area, I worked 7 years as a waiter in one of the shitty diners, I pulled in about $22/hr in one location (most waitresses made around $14)and in another location I was lucky to pull $22/night so I made the district bonus me every week or I'd just move to a new location
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Prisoner#1
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Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: DieCommie]
#8731561 - 08/05/08 10:40 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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DieCommie said: They should move to phoenix. Its not luxurious, but places are desperate for workers (which dispels your "he can always find a warm body to fill the position" theory). You can easily get over $10/hr here at entry level and rents are less than $500 a month.
you gotta have money to move, a cross country move is far more costly than moving a few miles away, if yu're earnign $10/hr here you wont be getting very far, in atlanta if you're earning $10/hr you're maybe going to make rent as the average 2br apartment is up to about $900/mo
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8732304 - 08/06/08 03:55 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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> you gotta have money to move
Not much money. I didn't have a dime when I moved out of the US. I sold all of my possessions, except for my clothes, a few books, and a suitcase, purchased a plane ticket, and started a new life in a new country.
I'm still waiting for somebody to explain to me why minimum wage should be equated to the minimum cost of living?
I'm also curious why we need minimum wage at all when we have unions? Seems like one or the other should be adequate to protect the worker.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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zouden
Neuroscientist


Registered: 11/12/07
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
#8732311 - 08/06/08 04:05 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I would have thought that one way unions protect the worker is by the introduction of minimum wage laws.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: zouden]
#8732321 - 08/06/08 04:18 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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> I would have thought that one way unions protect the worker is by the introduction of minimum wage laws.
No, unions strike to protect workers rights. When was the last time you saw a union worker making minimum wage.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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zouden
Neuroscientist


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
#8732354 - 08/06/08 04:39 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well, I guess unions would have been pretty instrumental in bringing in the minimum wage laws in the 19th century. That battle's been won but there are plenty more.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: zouden]
#8732362 - 08/06/08 04:41 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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> Well, I guess unions would have been pretty instrumental in bringing in the minimum wage laws in the 19th century.
Thus there is no longer any need for unions. They were able to get labor laws passed to protect the worker and are no longer needed...
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Seuss]
#8732374 - 08/06/08 04:48 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: I'm still waiting for somebody to explain to me why minimum wage should be equated to the minimum cost of living?
so we can abolish welfare and finally let those that dont work starve to death
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I'm also curious why we need minimum wage at all when we have unions? Seems like one or the other should be adequate to protect the worker.
a great number of companies will find reason to get rid of you if they hear talk about unions, I know of one that closed it's doors, dismissed all it's employees and reopened under a new name with new shitty pay... most just say 'we dont have any work for ya, here's your papers'
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pothead_bob
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8732601 - 08/06/08 07:46 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Here's something interesting I read today pertaining to Wal-Mart. Looks like they're encouraging their workers to vote against the democrats to prevent them from having to raise wages. Good people.
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One of the day's best stories is The Wall Street Journal's report that Wal-Mart is telling its managers and supervisors that a presidential victory by Sen. Barack Obama could hurt the company, giving the labor movement new life and spurring unionizing efforts at the nation's largest retailer.
In recent weeks, thousands of Wal-Mart store managers and department heads have been summoned to mandatory meetings at which the retailer stresses the downside for workers if stores were to be unionized.
According to about a dozen Wal-Mart employees who attended such meetings in seven states, Wal-Mart executives claim that employees at unionized stores would have to pay hefty union dues while getting nothing in return, and may have to go on strike without compensation. Also, unionization could mean fewer jobs as labor costs rise....
Wal-Mart may be walking a fine legal line by holding meetings with its store department heads that link politics with a strong antiunion message. Federal election rules permit companies to advocate for specific political candidates to its executives, stockholders and salaried managers, but not to hourly employees. While store managers are on salary, department supervisors are hourly workers.
http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/08/walmart_to_workers_dems_will_h.html
-------------------- No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge which is itself based upon the mathematical sciences. -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519) Speak well of your enemies. After all, you made them.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: john edwards for a min. wage increase to 9.50$ [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8734011 - 08/06/08 02:02 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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> a great number of companies will find reason to get rid of you if they hear talk about unions
That would be illegal, at least in the US.
> I know of one that closed it's doors, dismissed all it's employees and reopened under a new name with new shitty pay...
I'm not sure if that is illegal or not, but regardless, it doesn't work with large companies. They can shutdown a plant, but J&J isn't going to change their name and open a new plant under a different name.
> so we can abolish welfare and finally let those that dont work starve to death
Again, why is minimum wage equated to minimum cost of living? I'm still waiting for a good reason why a sixteen year old flipping burgers should be paid enough to support a basic minimum lifestyle as if they were living on their own?
> Looks like (Wal-Mart is) encouraging their workers to vote against the democrats to prevent them from having to raise wages. Good people.
Assuming that Wal-Mart will be forced to reduce staff in order to increase pay should the minimum wage go up, then are they not looking out for the best interests of their employees? Or are you claiming that no job is better than a low paying job?
One last question... who forces people to stay in minimum wage paying jobs? Why can't these people learn a skill or trade and start a career rather than bitching about how unfair life is because they aren't Bill Gates? If I paid my staff minimum wage, they would laugh at me and leave for a new job... but then, my staff are skilled, and are worth more than minimum wage.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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