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OfflineMOoKie
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Registered: 04/06/01
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The Middle East.
    #322112 - 05/21/01 01:24 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

In the late 1800's someone said something to the extent of: "If a worldwide conflict starts, It will be over some damn fool thing in the balkans"

Well, that came to being.

That statement can hold true in these time's in the Middle East. I expect an all out war to break out over there by summer. Whether or not anyone other then the Arab states will get dragged into it I don't know. Think about this though: Iraq hates the Israeli's just as much as the Palestinians. Iraq has gone to war with Israel before. Israel is an ally of the US. Saddam and the Bush's aren't exactly friendly. Oil.

Who's at fault? The PLO? The Israeli's? Arafat? Sharon?

Things are escalating over there. Soon, real soon.

"I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" ~Patrick Henry


--------------------
"If it ain't one thing, then it's the other. Any cause that crosses your path; your heart bleeds for anyone's brother. I've got to tell you you're a pain in the ass."      Oingo Boingo!


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The Middle East. [Re: MOoKie]
    #322249 - 05/21/01 08:07 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Wasn't that Namsterdamus?(SP)...

Maybe it's not fair for me to make this assumption but i belive it's a mixture of the PLO, Palastinians, and the Saddam-esque tyrants in them muslim states. I call them cowards because it doesn't take a lot of guts to drive a car bomb in front of a hospital or any other independant public building

Since you're a moderator now do we have to call you sir?

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleAgent Cooper
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Re: The Middle East. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #322363 - 05/21/01 01:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The apartheid-state of Israel is responsible for the ongoing conflict in the Mid-East.

Innvertigo - I am surprised of your response (but then again, I am not that surprised since the pro-Israel perspective is the only perspective shown in American corporate mass media - go figure).

Please imagine this scenerio: What if you were living in a small town, a town where your family has lived for many, many years. Things are not perfect, but the area is definitely your home. But something changes - an force sweeps into the region and begins bulldozing your neighborhood down and expelling the people because you are not Jewish. The force sets up a Jewish state - meaning all those who are not of this faith are treated as third-class citizens & forced into small ghettos. Your home is now under an intense military occupation, a regime that is armed to the teeth by the strongest, most wealthy nation in the world - a distant nation whose only interest is profit. The occupation is illegal by international standards. If you try to stand up against this force, they kill you. They have killed hundreds of your friends and family. How would you feel?

Imagine if, say, the Chinese invade your home town, kill you friends, and expel your family because you are not Chinese (provided U.S. military might is not strong and comparable to that of the Palestinian people - meaning you cannot rely on some large super army to save you). What would you do? I am willing to bet a million dollars your actions would not be unlike that of a common Palestinian.

The following is an outline of the roots and development of the state of
Israel.

The Beginnings of Zionist Settlement

? Israel is a Zionist state--a state based on the political ideology known as
Zionism. Israel was founded by Zionist Jews from Europe, who began to
colonize historic Palestine (what is now Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank) in
the late 1880s. At that time, there were small Jewish communities that had
long existed in the Middle East, but Jews had not been a large part of the
population in Palestine for some two thousand years. Most Jews who lived
in the area in the ancient times had migrated to other parts of the world
following the fall of the last Jewish kingdom in Palestine to the Roman
Empire, around 70 AD. By the time the Zionist movement arose in the late
1800s, there had been many centuries of Jewish migrations, persecutions,
and inter-marriage with other people. Most Jews lived in Europe, and they
were a very diverse group which included many different nationalities as
well as religious and political viewpoints.

? The Zionists based their movement on the claim that Jews were god's
"chosen people" and that Palestine was the land god promised them. They
said that Jews could never assimilate into other societies and could only
deal with anti-Semitism by having their own state. Zionism did not reflect
the views of many Jews who saw themselves as part of the life and
struggles of the people in the countries where they lived. The Zionist
movement reflected the interests of bourgeois Jews in Europe, and from
the beginning it was based on allying with imperialism against the masses
in the Middle East. Theodor Herzl, a founder of Zionism, wrote that Israel
"would be the advance post of civilization against barbarism." (Rodinson)

? The Zionists promoted the myth that Palestine, which is about the size of
the state of Maryland, was a barren desert, "a land without people for a
people without land." In truth, some of the first urban societies in the world
originated in historic Palestine, and Palestinians had lived and farmed
there for centuries. In 1947 some Palestinians could trace their land
ownership back a thousand years. (Guyatt, p. 1)

? From the start, the Zionist plan was expulsion and conquest. R. Weitz, the
head of the colonization department of the Jewish Agency, a leading Zionist
organization, wrote to other Zionists: "Between ourselves it must be clear
that there is no room for both peoples together in this country... There is no
other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries, to
transfer all of them: Not one village, not one tribe, should be left." (Said &
Hitchens, p. 239)

? By 1918, there were 680,000 Palestinians living in Palestine, in contrast
to 56,000 Jews, and Palestinians owned 97 percent of the land. (Basic
Facts, Quaker Newsletter) But the imperialists had plans for this region.
After World War 1, various imperialist powers scrambled to scoop up the
lands ruled by the defeated Ottoman Empire, including Palestine. The
rivalry was intense because oil was now a precious economic and military
commodity. Britain calculated that establishing a state of Zionist settlers--a
settler-colonial state similar to South Africa--could help in digging its claws
more deeply into the Middle East. The British also wanted to undercut
Jewish support for the newly established Soviet Union, then a revolutionary
socialist country. In 1917 British Foreign Secretary Balfour declared: "The
four great powers are committed to Zionism, and Zionism...is rooted in
age-long tradition, in present needs, in future hopes, of far profounder
import than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now
inhabit that ancient land." (Sin, p. 10)

? During World War I, the British had promised independence to
Palestinians and other Arabs. But Britain quickly broke those promises. In
1922, the British imperialists got the League of Nations to give them a
"mandate" to rule Palestine as a colony. The British worked to "secure the
establishment of the Jewish national home" by encouraging Jewish
immigration, allowing the Jewish Agency to share the administration of
Palestine, and by suppressing Palestinian resistance. (Said & Hitchens, p.
242, quoting British Parliamentary papers)

? Between 1933 and 1945, Britain, along with its U.S. imperialist ally,
severely restricted Jewish immigration into their own countries. This policy,
aimed at pushing Jews to immigrate to Palestine, was carried out while the
Jewish people in Europe faced the Holocaust. (During World War 2, the
U.S. and Britain also refused to bomb the tracks leading to the Nazi
concentration camps.) Zionist leaders also cut deals with the Nazis--such
as the Havara Agreement--allowing some wealthier Jews to escape to
Palestine and undercutting Jewish resistance in Nazi-controlled areas.

? There was Palestinian resistance to the Zionist settlers as early as the turn
of the twentieth century. In 1936 Palestinians launched an armed uprising
against the British authorities and the Zionist settlers. The British brutally
crushed the uprising in 1939 and passed emergency laws condemning to
death any Palestinian found with a gun. (Roots, p. 68).

? Zionist leader David Ben Gurion wrote at the time: "In our political
argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us...[but] let us not
ignore the truth among ourselves... Politically we are the aggressors and
they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it,
whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want
to take away from them their country...." (Chomsky, pp. 90-91)

The Founding of Israel

? Through World War 2, the United States had emerged as the top
imperialist power in the world; and the U.S. was eager to replace Britain as
the main power in the Middle East. In November 1947, the U.S. helped
push through a UN resolution partitioning Palestine into a Zionist state and
an Arab state. At that time, the Palestinians still outnumbered Zionist
settlers two to one and owned 92 percent of the land. But the partition gave
Israel 54 percent of the land.

? On May 14, 1948--after the Palestinians and the Arab countries refused to
accept the UN partition--the Zionists proclaimed the state of Israel and
launched a war against Palestinians. At the village of Der Yassin, Israeli
forces massacred 250 defenseless villagers, including 100 women and
children. Israel used this atrocity to spread terror among the Palestinian
people, and many fled their homes in panic. When the war ended in
January 1949, nearly 800,000 Palestinians --two-thirds of the
population--had been forcibly driven into exile in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria,
Gaza, and the West Bank. Israel had seized 77 percent of the land.
(Chomsky, p. 95)

? Israel used the Arab intervention on the side of the Palestinians as an
excuse for the war. The Zionists claimed that they were only "defending"
themselves from an unprovoked attack. But David Ben Gurion, now a top
Israeli leader, spelled out Israel's real aims: "The issue at hand is conquest
not self-defense. As for the setting of borders--it's an open-ended matter....
In each attack, a decisive blow should be struck, resulting in the destruction
of homes and the expulsion of the population." (Sin, p. 16)

Wars of Aggression and Brutal Occupation

? After the 1948 war Israel began systematically destroying Palestinian
society --its towns and villages, its historical and cultural sites, its social
infrastructure. By 1988, Israel had destroyed 385 of the 475 Palestinian
villages inside the 1948 borders. (Middle East Reports 5/6/88). Israeli
leader Moshe Dayan admitted, "There is not a single Jewish village in the
land which was not built on the site of an Arab dwelling place." (Sin, p. 15)

? In 1967 the Israelis launched the so-called "Six Day War," aimed at
grabbing more land and establishing Israel as a regional power. Israel
seized the remaining 23 percent of historic Palestine--the West Bank,
Gaza, and East Jerusalem--along with Egypt's Sinai Peninsula and Syria's
Golan Heights.

? Israel again claimed it was just defending itself against Arab aggression.
But Israeli leader Menachem Begin revealed, "In June 1967, we again had
a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not
prove that [Egyptian leader] Nasser was really about to attack us. We must
be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him." (Chomsky, p. 100)

? The 1960s saw a powerful revolutionary upsurge among Palestinians.
Many were influenced by the war of liberation waged by the Vietnamese
against the U.S. and Mao Tsetung's teachings on people's war. In 1965
Palestinian guerrilla organizations launched an armed struggle against
Israel, with the aim of creating a democratic, secular (non-religious) state
throughout Palestine. In March 1968 Palestinian fighters held off a major
Israeli attack at Karameh, Jordan--an inspiring battle that showed the
potential for a people's war against Israel. (Roots, p. 9)

? After the 1967 war, the UN passed Resolution 242, calling on Israel to
withdraw from all areas seized during the war, in return for Arab recognition
of Israel. Instead of withdrawing from those newly seized territories, the
Israelis, with U.S. backing, began to build heavily armed Zionist settlements
on those areas and to incorporate them into Israel.

? Since 1967 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza have lived under
harsh military occupation, with basic freedoms suspended and their
economy under siege. By 1988 Israel had confiscated over 52 percent of
the West Bank and 30 percent of Gaza for its military and settlers, while
destroying thousands of Palestinian homes. Israeli troops have used
extreme brutality and armed reprisals against Palestinian protesters--as in
the "intifada" (uprising) of the late 1980s and the current clashes in the
West Bank and Gaza.

? Israel has served as U.S. imperialism's attack dog against threats to U.S.
interests. In the Middle East, those interests center on controlling this
strategic crossroads between Europe, Asia, and Africa and its vast oil
reserves. This is why the U.S. has given Israel $2 to $3 billion a year in aid
for decades. The aid allows the Israeli military to acquire the weapons used
to wage wars of aggression and to suppress the Palestinian resistance.
Without U.S. backing, the state of Israel could not survive.

? Since its founding in 1948, Israel has carried out many vicious assaults on
the masses in the region and around the world. In 1956 Israel aided the
U.S. in the war for control of the Suez Canal. In 1976 Israel invaded
Lebanon to prevent the government from being controlled by forces that the
U.S. and Israel opposed. Israel invaded Lebanon again in 1982 and killed
over 20,000 Lebanese and Palestinians. Israel seized the southern part of
Lebanon through that invasion and held the territory until the year 2000. In
1982, Israeli warplanes bombed a nuclear reactor in Iraq; and in 1991
Israel supported the U.S. in the Persian Gulf War against Iraq. Israeli agents
have trained torturers from Guatemala to South Africa and sold weapons to
reactionary pro-U.S. governments all over the world. ("Fort Apache,"
Chomsky)

The "Peace Process"

? U.S. and Israeli attacks on the Palestinians and other peoples of the
Middle East has given rise to deep popular anger and sharp contradictions.
In order to keep these explosive conflicts in check, stabilize its grip on the
region, and strengthen Israel, the U.S. has, over the years, attempted to
broker and enforce various "peace" agreements. In 1978, the U.S. oversaw
the "Camp David Accords" between Israel and Sadat of Egypt, which
became the first Arab country to officially recognize the Zionist state.

? A key part of U.S. strategy has been the "two-state" solution: the
Palestinians would recognize Israel and cease their struggle in return for a
"mini-state" of their own centered in the West Bank and Gaza. By the late
1980s Yasser Arafat, the leader of the Palestine Liberation Organization
(PLO), had basically agreed to recognition of Israel and the acceptance of
a "mini-state."

? The U.S. and Israel never had any intention of allowing a truly independent
Palestinian state. Under the "peace" deal hammered out in Oslo in 1993
(and later in the 1998 Wye agreement), Israel was supposed to eventually
transfer about 40 percent of the occupied West Bank to full or partial control
of the Palestinian Authority. Even if this agreement were to be carried out,
the Palestinians would have been left with just a small part of their historic
homeland. As one writer noted, "The Palestinians would therefore be
offered not a 50/50 split, but 50 percent of less than one quarter of what had
once been their land.... Palestinians would thus be crammed into just over
10 percent of the territory, while Israelis enjoyed the other 90 percent."
(Guyatt, p. xii)

? Under the U.S.-brokered agreement, the Palestinian areas would be
broken up into small, separate pieces, surrounded by Israel and its military
and easily isolated. The economy in these areas would be very dependent
on Israeli or U.S. and other imperialist "aid." Israel would continue to
monopolize key resources such as water, which is crucial to agriculture,
industry, and daily life.

? The Oslo agreement made no provisions for the return of (or
compensation for) the four million Palestinian refugees living outside of
what is now Israel, West Bank, and Gaza. These refugees are "now the
largest and longest existing such population anywhere." ("The End of Oslo")
Jerusalem, which Palestinians consider their capital, would remain under
Israeli control.

? As many Palestinians and others around the world have remarked, the
Palestinians now live under a condition of Israeli apartheid--and the "peace
process" would not bring a fundamental change to this situation. In reality,
the "peace process" is the continuation of U.S.-Israeli efforts to suppress
the Palestinian people, strengthen Israel, and tighten U.S. imperialism's
grip on the Middle East. The state of Israel was founded through a great
injustice--and this injustice continues to the present day.

Sources:

V. K. Sin, "Israel: Imperialism's Attack Dog in the Middle East," A World To
Win, 1988/11.

"Palestine: A History of Occupation and Resistance," Revolutionary
Worker, November 10, 1991

"Fort Apache: The Middle East" a 4-part series, Revolutionary Worker,
January 6-27, 1984, citing Israel Shahak, Israel's Global Role (Belmont,
MA: Arab American University Graduates, 1992); Fateful Triangle; and
Maxime Rodinson, Israel: A Colonial-Settler State? (New York: Monad
Press 1973)

The Fateful Triangle, Noam Chomsky (Boston: South End Press, 1983)

Joy Bonds, Jimmy Emerman, Linda John, Penny Johnson, Paul Rupert, Our
Roots Are Still Alive--The Story of the Palestinian People, (New York:
Institute for Independent Social Journalism, 1981)

Nicholas Guyatt, The Absence of Peace--Understanding the
Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (New York: Zed Books, 1998)

"Palestine for Beginners," Middle East Report, September-October 1988

"Israel and the Palestinians," Middle East Report, May-June 1988

"Who Are the Palestinians," Quaker Middle East Representatives
Newsletter #7

Edward W. Said, Ibrahim Abu-Lughod, Janet L. Abu-Lughod, Muhammad
Jallaj, Elia Zureik, "A Profile of the Palestinian People," in Edward Said &
Christopher Hitchens, eds., Blaming the Victims--Spurious Scholarship and
the Palestinian Question (New York: Verso, 1988)

Edited by Agent Cooper on 05/21/01 01:44 PM.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: The Middle East. [Re: Agent Cooper]
    #322417 - 05/21/01 02:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"I am not that surprised since the pro-Israel perspective is the only perspective shown in American corporate mass media - go figure"

Actually i base my opinion on the acts that are done. I despise Arafat because he is a coward. He aligns himself with those such as Saddam and that is a good indicator.

"Imagine if, say, the Chinese invade your home town, kill you friends..."

I can't imagine it because it could never happen. I hate to debate on hypotheticals because if i knew what i knew now and all of a sudden exist in the Gaza strip i'd move to a different country. I would like to answer that challenge but it's a hypothetic statement and my view would be tainted.

I'll be honest with you i could care less about either countries and if they want to destroy each other then fine more oxygen for me. I do believe however we should keep our noses out of it because with every view (such as your own) i can find 2 people to say the opposite and i will admit i'm no pro on this topic though i still stick to my previous adjectives describing the palastinians.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinejihead
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Registered: 06/09/00
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Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: The Middle East. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #323302 - 05/22/01 02:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

when was the last time US intervention was needed in the midde east? when oil prices were out of control (contrary to belief, oil in the 80's was selling at some $2.50 of today's dollars). what lowered prices for a decade? thats right, a war to cripple the economies of some choice OPEC nations.
so heres the $20,000 question: how does one GWB solve the "energy crisis" (there is no crisis, only in cali)? thats right! bomb the fuck out of a few "beligerants" to destroy their ecomomies to the point where they have to obtain oil at dirt cheap prices again.
now, whose "energy policies" saved the day for the nation? thats right, our president.
and to think, ill be giving up my car this summer so one more soccer mom can drive her colossal SUV on nicely paved suburban roads at 3mpg. GOOOOOOOOO AMERIKA!



--------------------
kill white noise


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: The Middle East. [Re: jihead]
    #323317 - 05/22/01 02:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

if your refering to me, i never metioned oil.

"how does one GWB solve the "energy crisis" (there is no crisis, only in cali)? thats right! bomb the fuck out of a few "beligerants" to destroy their ecomomies to the point where they have to obtain oil at dirt cheap prices again"

I think the blame for this "ficticious" energy crises can sit right on the shoulders of Clinton and the people of California

"ill be giving up my car this summer so one more soccer mom can drive her colossal SUV on nicely paved suburban roads at 3mpg"

Good...now i'll have room for my SUV....and that's 10 mpg, thank you very much..i'm not giving up anything....that's just how i am...ha

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleAgent Cooper
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Registered: 08/04/00
Posts: 210
Loc: right behind you
Re: The Middle East. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #323382 - 05/22/01 03:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I do not understand. You say your opinions are "based on the acts that are done," but yet you target the Palestinians & the PLO as essentially the the bad guys in this situation. Well, you seem to be ignoring the overwhelming acts of violence, oppression, assassination, mass displacement (some 4 million refugees) neighborhood bulldozing, food & water theft, land confiscation, and missles attacks that Israel has done in order to secure their ethnically clean state. Israeli aggression by far outweighs the acts of violence of the people they are oppressing.

The Palestinian people periodically rebel as their conditions deteriorate and more land is taken, homes demolished, and they are treated with great ruthlessness and discrimination. Many are among the hundreds of thousands expelled earlier, or who have still not forgotten their relatives killed and injured by Israeli military violence over many many years. Palestinian deaths by Israeli arms exceed Israeli deaths from the so-called "terrorism" by better than 15 to 1.

You must understand that suicide bombers & teenagers throwing stones in the streets are just uncontrollable outbursts from victims of Israeli occupation; these irrational acts do not constitute state policy. Israel is the one with a systematic policy of aggression - they have carried out more violence than anyone; they are responsible for this modern tension.

Also responsible is the United States who has armed Israel to the teeth. Our tax dollars pay for each bullet that is fired at the Palestinian demonstrators.

I doubt that anyone would disagree with my statements - even the corporate press - since it is all well documented. The difference would lay in the justification of Israel's violence, which in my opinion, is only an excuse for their ethnic cleansing and way to manufacture support for U.S. involvement - good ol' Soviet propaganda style.

Who cares if Arafat aligns himself with Iraq? We armed Iraq in the first place and supported their genocide of the Kurds. And then when the time was right, the U.S. government decides to attack him - creating a "show war" for the rest of the world to see how powerful we are. The Gulf War was a farce. Saddam may be one evil bastard, but he's just a phantom to justify military presence in the area in order to secure cheap oil. Every sinister act that Iraq has done, we have done ten times over.

"...we should keep our noses out of it.."

I agree. We should stop funding Israel, pull out our troops in the region, stop starving the people of Iraq, and begin to take care of our own domestic/regional problems.

Edited by Agent Cooper on 05/22/01 04:02 PM.



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InvisibleAgent Cooper
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Re: The Middle East. [Re: Agent Cooper]
    #323386 - 05/22/01 03:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

10 mpg...what a scam. I cant believe people are still falling for that.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Re: The Middle East. [Re: Agent Cooper]
    #323502 - 05/22/01 06:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Remember now, i said i wasn't an expert in this topic. However, to say that this is all of isreals fault is a little much.

I realy don't care if the ratio of deaths are 50:1. To coin a phrase "you don't bring a knife to a gun fight". Is it ok that the cowards bomb these innocent places then, just because they are getting their asses kicked?

I wish i can go into depth with this like you do but i can only go buy what i read and see on TV because it really hasn't drawn my interest. They've been fighting for thousands of years and to say that it has been the recent years is a bit far out if ya ask me. I will say that anyone willing to bomb an innocent establishment are less than human...cowards.

As i stated before i hope they blow each other up because i really don't care. I'm just sick and tired of these religious wars that never solve anything.

And in closing i agree that we should stop funding isreal

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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