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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5447141 - 03/27/06 11:48 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

sources for each of the three points:

1. muhammad admonished against the consumption of alcohol.


You are taking one statement and interpreting this to be the final word. Here is more information on what the Quran says about alcohol:

An example of such incoherence and unintelligibility is the Quranic view of strong drinks and wine. The Quran is clearly confused regarding its view of intoxicants as the following passages conclusively demonstrate:

And We have not revealed to you the Book except that you may make clear to them that about which they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe. And Allah has sent down water from the cloud and therewith given life to the earth after its death; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who would listen. And most surely there is a lesson for you in the cattle; We give you to drink of what is in their bellies -- from betwixt the feces and the blood-- pure milk, easy and agreeable to swallow for those who drink. And of the fruits of the palms and the grapes -- you obtain from them intoxication (sakaran) and goodly provision; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who ponder. And your Lord revealed to the bee saying: Make hives in the mountains and in the trees and in what they build: Then eat of all the fruits and walk in the ways of your Lord submissively. There comes forth from within it a beverage of many colours, in which there is healing for men; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who reflect. S. 16:64-69 Shakir

The impression given by this passage is that intoxicants are something good, since the context deals with signs or proofs of God?s care and provisions for mankind. Nothing is said about the negative affects of intoxicants or whether it is impermissible for believers.

O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated (sukara) UNTIL YOU KNOW (WELL) WHAT YOU SAY, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath -- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving. S. 4:43 Shakir

This verse forbids Muslims from coming to prayers while intoxicated. This gives the impression that drinking before praying is permissible, provided that one doesn?t get drunk.

They ask thee concerning wine (al-khamri) and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, AND SOME PROFIT, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider. S. 2:219 A. Yusuf Ali

Here, wine (which falls under the category of intoxicants) is said to be both sinful and profitable, with the sin being greater. Even this passage stops short of explicitly prohibiting the consumption of wine.

Finally:

O ye who believe! Intoxicants (al-khamru) and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are AN ABOMINATION,- OF SATAN?S HANDWORK: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper. Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants (al-khamri) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer: will ye not then abstain? S. 5:90-91 A. Yusuf Ali

This passage says that intoxicants are the handiwork of Satan! Hence, the Quran goes from describing wine as something good to something completely evil.

Now a Muslim may interject here and claim that the verses which permit intoxicants were abrogated. Yet, this is precisely the point. How does a Muslim know that these verses have been abrogated? Where does the Quran explicitly, or even implicitly, state this? Second, how does the Muslim know for certain which verses came first? Does the Quran give the date these "revelations" were allegedly sent down so that we can know which passage came first? After all, one can just as likely claim that S. 16:66-67 was "revealed" last and therefore abrogated S. 2:219 and 5:90-91. How can one know for certain?


http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Contra/incomplete.html

There is no god but Allah; Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah

As I've pointed out the Quran says different things.

yes or no: muhammad declared alcohol to be an abomination and instructed his followers to abstain

You are displaying your ignorance of religion. This is why you need to spend a years studying it rather than doing a 2 minute google search. Religions are usually open to a vast range of interpretations. To think you can reduce everything to "Yes or No" is idiotic. As I've explained you can interpret pretty much whatever you want on this from the Quran.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Redstorm]
    #5447354 - 03/27/06 12:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

So, if you don't follow the Koran to the last detail, you are not a Muslim?




How much more clear can I make myself? The central tenet, the core, the foundation, the fundamental defining characteristic of Islam compared to other religions, is the belief that Mohammed was the messenger of God and that he spoke God's will.

We're not talking about every "last detail" here, we're talking about the essential defining characteristic which makes Islam Islam rather than (for example) Catholicism.

How hard is that to understand?





Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Phred]
    #5447967 - 03/27/06 03:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I understand what you're saying. I have one question, though. If a Christian works on the Sabbath, are they a Christian? The word of God did say that you are to rest on the Sabbath.


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Offlinenakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque
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Registered: 11/23/04
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Redstorm]
    #5447991 - 03/27/06 03:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

the only time you are not a christian if you claim to eb a christian is if you don't believe Jesus died and was ressurected fro you.

like what he is saying about the core basic most fundamebtal tenet of Islam is to believe he was the messenger of allah.

Christians have to believe that jesus was dead and ressurected. He is the son of god. The similarities are alarming and th violence that stems form the mniscule differences riducluous and it makes me hate god/satan what or whoever.

if you believe those things but don't follow the rules you are still believers but sinners.


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Asshole


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Phred]
    #5448031 - 03/27/06 03:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Never mind. I re-read your post and apparently did misinterpret it.


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Offlineke1n
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Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 359
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Redstorm]
    #5448418 - 03/27/06 05:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

As I said, the Quran can be interpreted any number of ways and in the end only God is the judge if one is a Muslim or not. The key idea in ISlam is intentions. Intenitonas are in the head. Unless you can read minds, then you are noone to determine one's faith. So you cna cite as many sources as you like just reread what I just said for a response.


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Everything that is posted, including pictures and text, are a result of fictional storytelling using images found online and/or created using the latest graphics software. I am a fictional writer who likes to explore the internet world.
------------------------------------

http://www.adobe.com/


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OfflineSkeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: ke1n]
    #5448458 - 03/27/06 05:48 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Buying into ready-made religions is for weak minded individuals who haven't the intellectual fortitude to face the unknown without the pacifiers of dogmas and myths handed down from equally clueless individuals who made things up which (at the time) looked pretty good from their positions of utter ignorance. So sayeth the Lord, amen.


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Sincerely,

Skeptikos


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5448478 - 03/27/06 05:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Everyone's gotta believe something.  I believe I'll have a beer. :beer:


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OfflineSkeptikos
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Registered: 01/15/06
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Silversoul]
    #5448492 - 03/27/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I'll drink to that.


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Sincerely,

Skeptikos


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Offlinewilshire
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Registered: 05/11/05
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Alex213]
    #5448611 - 03/27/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

As I've pointed out the Quran says different things.

yeah, about alcohol. where does the qur'an contradict itself in its proclamation that muhammad is god's messenger and that god must be worshipped and obeyed?

Does the Quran give the date these "revelations" were allegedly sent down so that we can know which passage came first? After all, one can just as likely claim that S. 16:66-67 was "revealed" last and therefore abrogated S. 2:219 and 5:90-91. How can one know for certain?

this shows nothing more than that muslims can disobey muhammad's commands when he contradicts himself.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5449188 - 03/27/06 09:48 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

UPDATE:

Afghan convert seeks asylum overseas
March 28, 2006 - 5:49AM


An Afghan man who faced execution for converting from Islam to Christianity has appealed for asylum in another country as protesters demanded his death.

Abdul Rahman's case has been dropped but he now faces real danger outside of prison.

Afghan officials could not immediately confirm that Abdul Rahman had been released after the case against him was dismissed, but a United Nations statement appeared to confirm growing speculation he was being freed.

"Mr Rahman has asked for asylum outside Afghanistan," UN spokesman Adrian Edwards said.

"We expect this will be provided by one of the countries interested in a peaceful solution to this case."

Hundreds of clerics, students and others chanting "Death to Christians!" marched through the northern Afghan Mazar-i-Sharif to protest the court's decision to toss out the case.

"Abdul Rahman must be killed. Islam demands it," said senior Cleric Faiez Mohammed, from the nearby northern city of Kunduz. "The Christian foreigners occupying Afghanistan are attacking our religion."

Several Muslim clerics have threatened to incite Afghans to kill Rahman if he is freed, saying that he is clearly guilty of apostasy and deserves to die.

Rahman was arrested last month after police discovered him with a Bible and put him on trial last week for converting 16 years ago while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He had faced the death penalty under Afghanistan's Islamic laws.

Rahman's case set off an outcry in the United States and other nations that helped oust the hardline Taliban regime in late 2001 and provide aid and military support for Afghan President Hamid Karzai.

US President George W Bush and others insisted Afghanistan protect personal beliefs.

In Canberra, Prime Minister John Howard said international outrage over the case should be taken as a strong signal to the fledgling democracy, which still relies on western forces to maintain stability.

"As far as I am concerned it would just be quite unacceptable to the Australian people for Australian soldiers to be having their lives on the line to defend in any way the practice that involved people being persecuted because of their religious beliefs," he said.

? 2006 AAP


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Offlineke1n
Stranger
Male

Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 359
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5449601 - 03/27/06 11:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah there are alot of stupid people who like to represent a religion. Christianity has had more of it's fair share. Hell, so have muslims. Get over your Islam-hating and live your fucking life. People are the same.


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Everything that is posted, including pictures and text, are a result of fictional storytelling using images found online and/or created using the latest graphics software. I am a fictional writer who likes to explore the internet world.
------------------------------------

http://www.adobe.com/


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5449982 - 03/28/06 05:08 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I think Yale should grant him asylum. For academic balance.


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