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ke1n
Stranger


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5444438 - 03/26/06 03:57 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: My father is a Muslim, he is what you call a moderate, he drinks, does other things which alot of muslims would condemn
does he believe that muhammad was god's messenger?
if not, he is not a muslim.
He does. Mohammed is a messanger, not a God or a commander. The Quran is a source. A source can be interpreted in any number of ways. Hell, for all we know, could be a metaphore for how someone feels when they fail at acheiving an ambition. If the day of judgement is real, I doubt God will judge someone based on their diet.
You, or any other person, has no right to determine wether antoehr is a Muslim or not. It is soley up to that person. Islamic fundamentalism in the 20th-21st century is something pretty new, it spurred from the Islamic revolution in 1979 in Iran. All my Arab/muslim relatives that I speak to don't share any of that extremist anti-american shit.
For most of the 20th century Arabs (I know the ARab world not the rest of the islamic world) looked up to the US. LOVE AMericna movies, food, music. But in the past 10 years especially that has began to invert. The rest of the world shares that same mentality as well. Europeans think Americans are plain morons. In South America an Americans will mainly get welcoming from people who thrive off tourism.
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Everything that is posted, including pictures and text, are a result of fictional storytelling using images found online and/or created using the latest graphics software. I am a fictional writer who likes to explore the internet world. ------------------------------------ http://www.adobe.com/
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: ke1n]
#5444493 - 03/26/06 04:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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He does. Mohammed is a messanger, not a God or a commander.
and as a messenger of god, he clearly admonished against consuming alcohol. how can you defy gods messenger and consider yourself a muslim?
You, or any other person, has no right to determine wether antoehr is a Muslim or not. It is soley up to that person.
ok. i don't believe in god, i think muhammad was talking out of his ass, and i love pork, alcohol, and adultery. i don't give alms and i doubt i'll ever visit mecca. i am a muslim. you nor anyone else has a right to determine otherwise.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5444874 - 03/26/06 06:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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im a muslim too
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: DieCommie]
#5444955 - 03/26/06 07:08 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Its funny....were are all the liberals proclaiming this a success in the defence of religious freedom?
Oh I forgot....Bush cant do anything right and either America.
As a participant in exterminating the Taliban, Afghanistan IS better off. For all of those people who like to proclaim themselves experts while not actually being there is quite humorous
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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ke1n
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5444961 - 03/26/06 07:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: He does. Mohammed is a messanger, not a God or a commander.
and as a messenger of god, he clearly admonished against consuming alcohol. how can you defy gods messenger and consider yourself a muslim?
You, or any other person, has no right to determine wether antoehr is a Muslim or not. It is soley up to that person.
ok. i don't believe in god, i think muhammad was talking out of his ass, and i love pork, alcohol, and adultery. i don't give alms and i doubt i'll ever visit mecca. i am a muslim. you nor anyone else has a right to determine otherwise.
Alright check this out, you were created with a brain- the ability to make your own choices. So as Islam teaches, nobody can judge you but God.
You obviously have it in your head that you hate Muslims and nothing anybody can tell you/show you will change your mind.
You want to talk about stupidity? Here in the US we have more than enough stupidity to go around for a lifetime. So why waste your time talking about something happening on the other side of the world?
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Everything that is posted, including pictures and text, are a result of fictional storytelling using images found online and/or created using the latest graphics software. I am a fictional writer who likes to explore the internet world. ------------------------------------ http://www.adobe.com/
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: ke1n]
#5445523 - 03/26/06 10:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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You obviously have it in your head that you hate Muslims and nothing anybody can tell you/show you will change your mind.
this is what it comes down to?
you can't fault the logic so i must "hate muslims" and be unwilling to change my mind no matter what i'm shown or told? please.
which of the following points are false:
1. muhammad admonished against the consumption of alcohol. 2. to be a muslim, one must believe that muhammad was the messenger of god, that he spoke god's will. 3. to be a muslim, one must believe that god's will must be obeyed.
?
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Silversoul
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5445600 - 03/26/06 10:59 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Can you be Catholic and use birth control?
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ke1n
Stranger


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5445651 - 03/26/06 11:15 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well tell me, is it true?
On your three points. Technically, yeah you are right. Alcohol is a little point in Islam. Islam (deriving from the word Salam, which means peace) is about submission to God. You might say "If you drink against God's will then you arent submitting to God". True, but You cna still be a good person and use selected points of Islam to make you a better person. Another rule is the only God can judge. Some Muslims will label moderates as nonmuslim, well they are trying to speak for God, therefore are defying another rule outlined in the Quran.
I don't think another person has the right to determine wether one is really of a certain faith or not. Quite frankly, its none of their business.
there are alot of stupid Muslims. There are alot of Muslims are pure geniuses as well. What are you trying to prove here?
Quote:
wilshire said: You obviously have it in your head that you hate Muslims and nothing anybody can tell you/show you will change your mind.
this is what it comes down to?
you can't fault the logic so i must "hate muslims" and be unwilling to change my mind no matter what i'm shown or told? please.
which of the following points are false:
1. muhammad admonished against the consumption of alcohol. 2. to be a muslim, one must believe that muhammad was the messenger of god, that he spoke god's will. 3. to be a muslim, one must believe that god's will must be obeyed.
?
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Everything that is posted, including pictures and text, are a result of fictional storytelling using images found online and/or created using the latest graphics software. I am a fictional writer who likes to explore the internet world. ------------------------------------ http://www.adobe.com/
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ke1n
Stranger


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: ke1n]
#5445662 - 03/26/06 11:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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About Paradigm's post- same applies ot Islam. Islam was borught to earth like 900 years ago (not quite sure on the dates, but a long time ago). Things change, times change. Pork is illegal in Islam because pigs are filthy and there are known sicknesses specifically deriving from that meat. Nowadays the chances of getting sick off of pork are slim. SO ther eis less emphasis on my part to not eat pork. I don't eat alot of it, but I dont mind if there is a little bit of pork on my pizza.
Some muslims will condemn all this and judge me. Ill tell them to mind their own fucking business.
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Everything that is posted, including pictures and text, are a result of fictional storytelling using images found online and/or created using the latest graphics software. I am a fictional writer who likes to explore the internet world. ------------------------------------ http://www.adobe.com/
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Alex213
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5446154 - 03/27/06 02:31 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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you can't fault the logic so i must "hate muslims" and be unwilling to change my mind no matter what i'm shown or told? please
What "logic" are you referring to? Can you tell us where and for how long you studied Islam?
Or is this the "logic" that you got during a 2 minute google search and are now blindly convinced that you know more about Islam than muslims do?
Try and be more open minded. It's just possible you could be wrong you know
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Alex213]
#5446363 - 03/27/06 06:11 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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What "logic" are you referring to?
1. muhammad admonished against the consumption of alcohol. 2. to be a muslim, one must believe that muhammad was the messenger of god, that he spoke god's will. 3. to be a muslim, one must believe that god's will must be obeyed.
which of the above statements is false?
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: ke1n]
#5446367 - 03/27/06 06:13 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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You might say "If you drink against God's will then you arent submitting to God". True, but You cna still be a good person and use selected points of Islam to make you a better person
a better person perhaps, but not a muslim,
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Alex213
Stranger
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5446507 - 03/27/06 07:14 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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muhammad admonished against the consumption of alcohol.
Source?
And taking this approach is as moronic as christians saying God banned homosexuality because a line in the bible can be interpreted in that way.
to be a muslim, one must believe that muhammad was the messenger of god, that he spoke god's will.
Mohammed Husseini, a prominent intellectual in the reform movement, said there are some people in Iran who interpret Islam in the same way as the Taleban.
"They think like Taleban - they think that everything should be forbidden. But in Islam, the first rule is that everything is allowed to all the people. Celebrating is very good."
For over 600 years, Iran's poets have penned odes to the tipple. The 14th Century poet Hafez sought to quench his desire for women and wine.
Hafez's city of Shiraz, after all, is so renowned for its vineyards, it has given its name to one of the world's most popular varieties of wine.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1740617.stm
. to be a muslim, one must believe that god's will must be obeyed.
I can only repeat, where did you study Islam? For how long did you study it?
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Alex213
Stranger
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5446517 - 03/27/06 07:20 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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a better person perhaps, but not a muslim,
Oh please. You are a 22 year old white american boy claiming to know more about Islam than muslims do. Just listen to yourself.
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Alex213]
#5446655 - 03/27/06 08:37 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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sources for each of the three points:
1. muhammad admonished against the consumption of alcohol.
"O you who believe! Intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), gambling, Al?Ans?b, and Al?Azl?m (arrows for seeking luck or decision) are an abomination of Shait?n's (Satan) handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you may be successful. Shait?n (Satan) wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants (alcoholic drinks) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of All?h and from As-Sal?t (the prayer). So, will you not then abstain?" Al-Ma'idah 5:90-91
2. to be a muslim, one must believe that muhammad was the messenger of god, that he spoke god's will.
"There is no god but Allah; Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah", The Shahada
to be a muslim, one must believe that god's will must be obeyed.
"islam" means "submission to god's will". "muslim" means "one who submits to god's will". you can find that pretty much anywhere. wikipedia or google it.
i ask again, which of those three statements are false?
yes or no: muhammad declared alcohol to be an abomination and instructed his followers to abstain.
?
yes or no: a person is not a muslim if he or she rejects the belief that muhammad is god's messenger.
?
yes or no: a person is not a muslim if he or she rejects god.
?
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Silversoul
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5446762 - 03/27/06 09:47 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
1. muhammad admonished against the consumption of alcohol.
"O you who believe! Intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), gambling, Al?Ans?b, and Al?Azl?m (arrows for seeking luck or decision) are an abomination of Shait?n's (Satan) handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you may be successful. Shait?n (Satan) wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants (alcoholic drinks) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of All?h and from As-Sal?t (the prayer). So, will you not then abstain?" Al-Ma'idah 5:90-91
To me, this sounds a lot like the Buddha's teachings about attachment. All these are things which distract people from the path. A mature person is able to differentiate the letter of the law from the spirit of the law.
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psilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5446992 - 03/27/06 10:59 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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You seem to be claiming that a Muslim that sins is not a Muslim.
That interpretation is strictly a fundamentalist one, and not one held by the majority of Muslims around the world.
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Phred
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: psilomonkey]
#5447036 - 03/27/06 11:09 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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It could be argued that a Muslim who drinks alcohol is merely sinning. However, a "Muslim" who doesn't believe that Muhammad was the messenger of God and that he spoke God's will is not just sinning, he's denying the core tenet of the religion he claims to accept -- the single most important belief which differentiates Islam from other religons. Same deal with one who doesn't believe God's will must be obeyed. That's more than just "sinning".
Phred
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psilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5447055 - 03/27/06 11:16 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Regarding alcohol, I asked a Muslim colleague about Islam and alcohol over a pint last summer down the pub. He said that it was un-Islamic and insulting to god to be drunk, but it was OK to have a drink now and again, as long as it was done in moderation.
Of course they are Muslims that hold more puritanical views, there is no single Muslim church.
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Redstorm
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Phred]
#5447082 - 03/27/06 11:24 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said: It could be argued that a Muslim who drinks alcohol is merely sinning. However, a "Muslim" who doesn't believe that Muhammad was the messenger of God and that he spoke God's will is not just sinning, he's denying the core tenet of the religion he claims to accept -- the single most important belief which differentiates Islam from other religons. Same deal with one who doesn't believe God's will must be obeyed. That's more than just "sinning".
So, if you don't follow the Koran to the last detail, you are not a Muslim? If that applies to other religions as well, I would say about 90% of the people I know who call themselves Christians are anything but.
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