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wilshire
free radical


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5442000 - 03/25/06 07:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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i'd like to address something....
we frequently hear something like, "not all muslims support that sort of thing, just the fundamentalist/orthodox/crazy ones".
if i'm not mistaken, to be a muslim, you must believe in the qur'an and that it was sent by god to his prophet muhammad (part of islam's third 'article of faith' and first tenet). if you do not believe this, you are not a muslim.
the muslim creed:
"I testify that there is no god but God Almighty, Who is One (and only One) and there is no associate with Him; and I testify that Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him), is His Messenger."
if god's book, and god's messenger, say to put people to death for apostasy (and all of the other lunacies of sharia law), then if you are a muslim, you must support this. if you don't, you are not a muslim, by definition. islam has a political side, which if you are a muslim, you believe is divine as realized by god himself, whom you worship and obey.
islam is fundamentalist by nature. it is incompatible with freedom and democracy. allah didn't prescribe freedom of the press, or the vote, or anything of the sort. allah prescribed death for apostates. we need to stop making excuses and concessions for islam. it is a violent, intolerant faith.
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Silversoul
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5442016 - 03/25/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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That's an easy claim to make with no Muslims here to refute it, just as it would be easy for someone else to make similar claims about Christianity, which I constantly refute. In the absence of any qualified expert to counter such claims, I think such statements are little more than ego stroking and intellectual masturbation.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Silversoul]
#5442023 - 03/25/06 07:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: That's an easy claim to make with no Muslims here to refute it, just as it would be easy for someone else to make similar claims about Christianity, which I constantly refute. In the absence of any qualified expert to counter such claims, I think such statements are little more than ego stroking and intellectual masturbation.
"Intellectual masturbation"? I say that all of the time...I think you stole it from me. 
Where's that lovable Zahid when you need him?
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Silversoul]
#5442051 - 03/25/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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t would be easy for someone else to make similar claims about Christianity
it would not, because it is not an article of faith in christianity that the bible or any other christian works are the revealed word of god. many christians recognize that the bible is a collection of various books written at different times by different authors, many of whom were normal men.
what makes a christian does not include the belief that the bible is the word of god, nor does the bible prescribe a repressive political system in nearly the same authority, detail, or severity as the qu'ran.
what makes a person a muslim on the other hand, does include the belief that the qur'an is the revealed word of god, and it does prescribe a political system that... well, speaks for itself.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5442058 - 03/25/06 07:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yep...a significant amount of the Muslims are wackos. It's pretty obvious. Now this does not mean that all of them are...but a lot of them are.
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Silversoul
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5442071 - 03/25/06 08:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said: "Intellectual masturbation"? I say that all of the time...I think you stole it from me. 
I believe it's a rather common term.
Quote:
Where's that lovable Zahid when you need him?
I think he might have gotten permabanned. I'm not sure.
Anyway, from what I know about Islam, there has always been an esoteric tradition within it, just like in Christianity. And as with Christianity, it has been largely drowned out by the much more popular exoteric literalist version. There are passages in the Bible that fundamentalist Christians will point to which say that the Bible is infallible, and I'm sure fundamentalist Muslims are likely to do the same with the Koran. One thing they both have in common is quoting out of context and losing sight of the big picture.
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Silversoul
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5442073 - 03/25/06 08:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: it would not, because it is not an article of faith in christianity that the bible or any other christian works are the revealed word of god.
Try telling that to any Southern Baptist minister.
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5442088 - 03/25/06 08:07 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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all of them are. all muslims believe:
a) that god said people who convert from islam should be killed
and
b) that this command must be obeyed.
therefore all muslims believe that those who convert from islam, engage in homosexual acts, insult islam or muhammad, etc., should be killed, as is the will of god revealed to his prophet muhammad (peace be upon him).
"muslims" who don't believe this either don't believe that god said to kill apostates (qur'an not the will of god, muhammad not his prophet = not a muslim) or that the command should be disobeyed (defiance of god's will = not a muslim).
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Silversoul
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5442092 - 03/25/06 08:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: all of them are. all muslims believe:
a) that god said people who convert from islam should be killed
and
b) that this command must be obeyed.
Have you asked them, or are you just talking out your ass?
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wilshire
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Silversoul]
#5442098 - 03/25/06 08:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Try telling that to any Southern Baptist minister.
certainly, there are many christians who believe that the bible is the literal word of god. many others do not, but they are still christians. a "muslim" who believes that the qur'an, or the other books (i think there are 5 total) is not the literal word of god however, is not a muslim.
so there are some fundamentalist christians and some non-fundamentalist christians. there is no such division in islam. if you do not believe that the qu'ran is the revealed word of god, and that it must be obeyed, you are not a muslim.
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wilshire
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Silversoul]
#5442105 - 03/25/06 08:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Have you asked them, or are you just talking out your ass?
read the second part of that post please.
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Silversoul
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5442108 - 03/25/06 08:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well, for one thing, the second part of the post mentions homosexual acts, even though Muhammed himself was silent on the subject(much like Jesus). So I'm going to have to ask you why a true Muslim would demand the death penalty for something the Koran does not condemn.
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Silversoul
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5442125 - 03/25/06 08:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: Try telling that to any Southern Baptist minister.
certainly, there are many christians who believe that the bible is the literal word of god. many others do not, but they are still christians. a "muslim" who believes that the qur'an, or the other books (i think there are 5 total) is not the literal word of god however, is not a muslim.
They may believe it was revealed by God, but that doesn't mean they don't interpret it in context or understand it symbolically.
Muslim fundamentalists take the Koran out of context, as do you, apparently. The places where it calls for violence are almost always in the context of defending oneself and fellow Muslims against attackers. It also teaches mercy and kindness.
Your understanding of Islam is like basing one's understanding of Christianity on Pat Robertson.
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zappaisgod
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Silversoul]
#5443469 - 03/26/06 08:28 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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The imprecation to kill apostates comes from a hadith and not the Koran itself. Hadiths are secondary texts to the Koran and relate to the sayings and teachings of Mohammed and his followers. According to todays NYTimes, there is no report of Mohammed executing apostates and there have been few historical examples of such. Whether that is true or not is irrelevant to the fact that there is even one nutlog who wants to kill this poor fool. Fucking assholes. Now, where's my T-shirt with a cartoon of Mohammed with a bomb on his head?
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SirTripAlot
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: zappaisgod]
#5443844 - 03/26/06 11:44 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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For all the people who hate America. Stick this one up your ass!!!!
Afghan Court Drops Case Against Christian By DANIEL COONEY, Associated Press Writer 3 hours ago
KABUL, Afghanistan - An Afghan court on Sunday dismissed a case against a man who converted from Islam to Christianity because of a lack of evidence and he will be released soon, officials said.
The announcement came as U.S.-backed President Hamid Karzai faced mounting foreign pressure to free Abdul Rahman, a move that risked angering Muslim clerics here who have called for him to be killed.
An official closely involved with the case told The Associated Press that it had been returned to the prosecutors for more investigation, but that in the meantime, Rahman would be released.
"The court dismissed today the case against Abdul Rahman for a lack of information and a lot of legal gaps in the case," the official said Sunday, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly on the matter.
"The decision about his release will be taken possibly tomorrow," the official added. "They don't have to keep him in jail while the attorney general is looking into the case."
Abdul Wakil Omeri, a spokesman for the Supreme Court, confirmed that the case had been dismissed because of "problems with the prosecutors' evidence."
He said several of Rahman's family members have testified that the 41-year-old has mental problems. "It is the job of the attorney general's office to decide if he is mentally fit to stand trial," he told AP.
A Western diplomat, also declining to be identified because of the sensitivity of the case, said questions were being raised as to whether Rahman would stay in Afghanistan or go into exile in a foreign country.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said she could not confirm that an Afghan court had dismissed the case and stressed the U.S. needs to respect the sovereignty of Afghanistan, which she called a "young democracy."
"We have our history of conflicts that had to be worked out after a new constitution. And so the Afghans are working on it. But America has stood solidly for religious freedom as a bedrock, the bedrock, of democracy, and we'll see." Rice said Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press."
Asked if American Christian missionaries should be encouraged to go to Afghanistan, Rice said: "I think that Afghans are pleased to get the help that they can get" but added "we need to be respectful of Afghan sovereignty."
Rahman has been prosecuted under Afghanistan's Islamic laws for converting 16 years ago while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He was arrested last month and charged with apostasy.
Muslim clerics had threatened to incite Afghans to kill Rahman if the government freed him. They said he clearly violated Islamic Shariah law by rejecting Islam.
The case against Rahman put Karzai in an awkward position.
While the U.S., Britain and other countries that prop-up his government have demanded the trial be dropped, Karzai has had to be careful not to offend Islamic sensibilities at home and alienate religious conservatives who wield considerable power.
Rahman had been held at a detention facility in central Kabul since his arrest, but he was moved to the notorious Policharki Prison just outside Kabul on Friday after threats were made against him by other inmates, prison warden Gen. Shahmir Amirpur told AP.
Policharki, a high-security prison housing some 2,000 inmates, including about 350 Taliban and al-Qaida militants who were blamed for inciting a riot there late last month that killed six people.
"We are watching him constantly. This is a very sensitive case so he needs high security," he said in an interview in his office in a crumbling building inside the jail.
Rahman is being held in a cell by himself next to the office of a senior prison guard, the warden said. He showed the AP the outside of Rahman's cell door, but refused to allow reporters to speak to him or see him.
He said Rahman had been asking guards for a Bible but that they did not have any to give him.
Rahman, meanwhile, said he was fully aware of his choice and was ready to die for it, according to an interview published Sunday in an Italian newspaper La Repubblica.
"I am serene. I have full awareness of what I have chosen. If I must die, I will die," Abdul Rahman told the Rome daily, responding to questions sent to him via a human rights worker who visited him in prison.
"Somebody, a long time ago, did it for all of us," he added in a clear reference to Jesus.
Rahman also told the Italian newspaper that his family _ including his ex-wife and teenage daughters _ reported him to the authorities three weeks ago.
He said he made his choice to become a Christian "in small steps," after he left Afghanistan 16 years ago. He moved to Pakistan, then Germany. He tried to get a visa in Belgium.
"In Peshawar I worked for a humanitarian organization. They were Catholics," Rahman said. "I started talking to them about religion, I read the Bible, it opened my heart and my mind."
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (03/26/06 11:45 AM)
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ke1n
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5444116 - 03/26/06 02:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: Abdul Rahman, 41, faces a possible death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity 16 years ago. He has been charged with rejecting Islam, a crime under this country's Islamic laws.
why is so much of the muslim world stuck in the middle ages?
It started in the Ottoman Empire. In the begining of the OTtoman EMpire the ISlamic world was the leader in science, math, and military advancements. They had the best schools and the most sophistacated societies. What the OTtoman empire did was took all that and ceneterd it in Turkey, leacingthe rest of the area with nothing. As the years went by they slowly lost value for education, etc. Then the Europeans beat the Ottomans and then carved that part of the world amongst themselves. They sure as hell didn't give a shit about that part of the world so as the eurpoean empires fell they slowly gave independance to those countries. Some of them recovered alright, others didnt.
Quote:
But...but...I thought we "liberated" Afghanistan.
We didn't. We simply fucked up one gang (Taliban) and let other gangs prevail by supplying the other gangs with money/weapons to do the dirty fighting for us.
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Everything that is posted, including pictures and text, are a result of fictional storytelling using images found online and/or created using the latest graphics software. I am a fictional writer who likes to explore the internet world. ------------------------------------ http://www.adobe.com/
Edited by ke1n (03/26/06 02:03 PM)
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ke1n
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
#5444143 - 03/26/06 02:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: Try telling that to any Southern Baptist minister.
certainly, there are many christians who believe that the bible is the literal word of god. many others do not, but they are still christians. a "muslim" who believes that the qur'an, or the other books (i think there are 5 total) is not the literal word of god however, is not a muslim.
so there are some fundamentalist christians and some non-fundamentalist christians. there is no such division in islam. if you do not believe that the qu'ran is the revealed word of god, and that it must be obeyed, you are not a muslim.
while the quran and bible are regarded differently, there is certainly a difference between moderate/fundamental muslims.
I have lived in an Arab country so I have witnessed both. My father is a Muslim, he is what you call a moderate, he drinks, does other things which alot of muslims would condemn but @ the same time maintains some core islamic values (which are the basis of christianity as well).
In politics, plenty of Arab countries have political battles between moderates and conservatives exactly as they do here with Dems and Republicans.
While many of your points here are viable, you guys are seeing things WAY out of context and have no real grasp on what goes on in the middle east.
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Everything that is posted, including pictures and text, are a result of fictional storytelling using images found online and/or created using the latest graphics software. I am a fictional writer who likes to explore the internet world. ------------------------------------ http://www.adobe.com/
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RandalFlagg
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5444226 - 03/26/06 02:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Afghan Court Drops Case Against Christian
Translated into English: We dropped the case because if we had executed that guy we would have pissed off the Americans.
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Alex213
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5444292 - 03/26/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Now if only the americans would get as worked up about the warlords they handed power over to in Afghanistan, womens rights and rebuilding Afghanistan we might actually get somewhere
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wilshire
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: ke1n]
#5444293 - 03/26/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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My father is a Muslim, he is what you call a moderate, he drinks, does other things which alot of muslims would condemn
does he believe that muhammad was god's messenger?
if not, he is not a muslim. if yes, he is defying muhammad's admonitions against drinking alcohol, therefore defying god, and therefore is not a muslim either.
"moderate" muslims are not muslims at all. they are people that simply borrow some aspects of islam and reject others. i borrow some aspects of christianity (and other religions) in my own life, but i am not a christian because i do not believe in god or the myth of jesus as the messiah. similarly, a lot of people who identify themselves as muslims might borrow from islam, but they are not actually muslims unless they believe that muhammad was god's messenger and submit to his will.
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