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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1960037 - 09/28/03 03:32 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)


Please provide sources instead of pulling bogus statistics out of your ass.


Admittedly, I pulled the 95% out of my ass. However, the
fundamentalist Muslim insurrections of this world are numerous
(Middle East, Chechnya, Indonesia, Phillipines), and you must
admit that they commit horrific acts. These are not people
attacking military targets. They seem to consistently attack
INNOCENT CIVILIANS.


Ever heard of My Lai?


How biased of you. Bring up one occurrence in one war that
was brought about by several very stupid men in the U.S. military.
Yet you conveniently ignore the PERPETUAL attacks of Muslim
fundamentalists.

Yes, I've heard of My Lai. Yes, I think it was horrible. Yes,
I think the men responible should have been severely punished.

Can I ask you a question? Have you ever heard of September 11th?
Have you heard of the Palestinian who just snuck into a
settlement and INTENTIONALLY killed a person and their infant child?
Have you heard of the countless Muslim suicide bombers who try
to kill and maim women and children outside of cafes?

There is a difference between the average American and the
average Muslim fundamentalist. When a tragedy occurs, no matter
who is the victim, we grieve. When a tragedy occurs that happens
to the "enemies" of Muslims, they laugh and cheer.

These people are sick. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.


If America is such a peaceful country, why are there millions of Americans who unthinkingly support every single military action the United States takes?


Not all Americans are idiot patriots who blindly follow whatever
government officials tell them. To be honest, I don't believe
Iraq has any WMD's. We invaded that country for political reasons
in my opinion. I think those political reasons were justified,
and in the long run, it will end up saving lives on both sides(much
like it could be argued that the atomic bomb drop on Japan probably
saved lives). But, I still worry that we have gotten ourselves into
one hell of a mess.


Patriotism/nationalism is also a religion, and has plenty of extremist adherents all over the world. They are also scum.


How many Americans do you see advocating and celebrating the killings
of innocent civilians? Do you see the streets filled with
Americans laughing and cheering when a Palestinian dies? When
anybody dies?



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1960086 - 09/28/03 03:43 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)


why must there be democracy? thats such a big question in my mind, why cant people run their countries the way they want to? it jus makes no sense.


That's what democracy is. The ability of the citizens of a
country to choose their leaders. Not one Arab country
has it. They are all ruled by monarchies, religious wackos,
or two-bit dictators.

Admittedly, some of this could be blamed on the U.S. We need Saudi
Arabia's oil, so we give the Saudi royal family tons of money and
weapons in order for them to stay in power. The only reason we give
a shit about them staying in power, is because they provide a
stable government, even if it is repressive. With a stable
government sitting atop all of that oil, we can be assured of
getting a non-interrupted supply. If there was an uprising
or coup in Saudi Arabia, our oil supplies would be threatened.

But, if we didn't prop up the Saudi royal family, and somebody
were to replace them, I shudder to think who it would be. What would
you rather have: a repressive but stable monarchy, or a
power-hungry, chaotic, and violent dictator or religious wacko? The
Middle East currently does not have the tools to bring about
democracy, so we must deal with what we can.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1960091 - 09/28/03 03:44 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Only in redneck bars.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1961594 - 09/28/03 11:54 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Admittedly, I pulled the 95% out of my ass. However, the
fundamentalist Muslim insurrections of this world are numerous
(Middle East, Chechnya, Indonesia, Phillipines), and you must
admit that they commit horrific acts. These are not people
attacking military targets. They seem to consistently attack
INNOCENT CIVILIANS.


I am not defending fundamentalist Muslims. I am merely challenging your self-serving, patriotic belief that Americans never intentionally cause harm, or that we cause less harm than other nations. Do you know how many INNOCENT CIVILIANS died in this last Iraqi crusade? Better yet, do you know how many INNOCENT CIVILIANS died during the Vietnam War, a war that was fought over ideology rather than immediate defense concerns? Over two million Vietnamese died in that war, over a million of them non-combatants. I'd like you to prove to me that Islamic fundamentalists have killed over a million people. Just try it. I dare you.

How biased of you. Bring up one occurrence in one war that
was brought about by several very stupid men in the U.S. military.
Yet you conveniently ignore the PERPETUAL attacks of Muslim
fundamentalists.


How biased of ME? I do not ignore the attacks of Muslim fundamentalists. I told you already I think they're scum. Try reading more carefully. If anybody is ignoring anything, it is you: you are ignoring America's PERPETUAL propensity to employ enormous military power for political and economic gain as opposed to pure defense. Many, many innocent people die as a result.

Can I ask you a question? Have you ever heard of September 11th?
Have you heard of the Palestinian who just snuck into a
settlement and INTENTIONALLY killed a person and their infant child?
Have you heard of the countless Muslim suicide bombers who try
to kill and maim women and children outside of cafes?


Don't try to lecture me about September 11th, you redneck. I live in Manhattan, and I was there that day, but I know for a fact you were nowhere near New York City when the towers fell. I can tell you for a fact that those of us who live in the prime terrorist target city expressed FAR less support for this last war than the hicks in the boonies who have nothing to gain or lose either way. And yes, I've heard about all of the atrocities you are mentioning. I also know that WHITE, PROTESTANT Germans did infinitely worse things some sixty years ago. I also know that there are plenty of Americans who commit just as horrible crimes against one another in our own country. Ever heard of Timothy McVeigh? People are just shitty all over, and Americans are no exception. Your patriotism blinds you to that fact. Simple as that.

There is a difference between the average American and the
average Muslim fundamentalist. When a tragedy occurs, no matter
who is the victim, we grieve. When a tragedy occurs that happens
to the "enemies" of Muslims, they laugh and cheer.


You've never actually lived within a Muslim community, and your entire understanding of the culture comes from CNN, etc. Maybe you have a few Muslim "friends" or some such nonsense, but that is the extent of it. Don't try to claim otherwise: I've seen your ilk a thousand times.

Not all Americans are idiot patriots who blindly follow whatever
government officials tell them. To be honest, I don't believe
Iraq has any WMD's. We invaded that country for political reasons
in my opinion. I think those political reasons were justified,
and in the long run, it will end up saving lives on both sides(much
like it could be argued that the atomic bomb drop on Japan probably
saved lives). But, I still worry that we have gotten ourselves into
one hell of a mess.


You think those political reasons were justified? Well whoop-dee-do! Soldiers dying at the rate of one a day, the treasury being eptied at the rate of more than one billion dollars a day, but you think it's "justified." If you or your child was out there getting bombed your opinion might count for shit, but it doesn't. Ah, yes, the old canard that STARTING wars and employing weapons of mass destruction "saves more lives in the long run." None of those arguments have ever been proven, and they become handy excuses for just about any kind of atrocity.

How many Americans do you see advocating and celebrating the killings
of innocent civilians? Do you see the streets filled with
Americans laughing and cheering when a Palestinian dies? When
anybody dies?


Americans were laughing and cheering when the A-bombs were dropped on Japan. They were happy to see their enemy defeated. I've seen victims and relatives of victims celebrate when their victimizers were put to the electric chair. You simply can't get through to the fact that Americans are nothing special. No better, no worse.

This idea that one's clan/race/religion/nation/etc. is special or exceptional or better or morally superior or whatever has been the primary scourge of the human intellect and peace among humans for the duration of human history. Once you adopt it, you enter into the same intellectual and moral universe as those religious fundamentalists, one in which you blind yourself to the faults of your own community and exaggerate the failings of, and then ultimately DEHUMANIZE, other communities. It's the same fundamental premise, and it is ALWAYS wrong. The root of all evil. Wake up.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1961596 - 09/28/03 11:54 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

When a tragedy occurs that happens to the "enemies" of Muslims, they laugh and cheer

Strange, I'm sure I saw Yasser Arafat giving blood to help the people of New York after Sep 11.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineZahid
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Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1961610 - 09/29/03 12:01 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Not to mention all the candle light vigils held by American, Canadian, and British Muslims.

I remember right after the attacks on television they showed an elder Saudi man repeatedly saying, "This is not Islam!"


--------------------

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Registered: 03/06/02
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1961611 - 09/29/03 12:02 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I remember that. I wonder if that blood was actually used, or if it went to a lab somewhere to be studied and have every known medical test done on it.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1961867 - 09/29/03 03:33 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
When a tragedy occurs that happens to the "enemies" of Muslims, they laugh and cheer

Strange, I'm sure I saw Yasser Arafat giving blood to help the people of New York after Sep 11.



Of course there is no chance at all he did it as a publicity stunt.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1961921 - 09/29/03 04:18 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I bet Bush knows Arafat's cholesterol level now.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1962343 - 09/29/03 09:23 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

He is the face of the Palestinian leadership. He has to look
moderate to the world in order to make a good impression.

While he gave blood, his Palestinian "brothers" ran out into the
streets and exuberantly celebrated.

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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1962361 - 09/29/03 09:36 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Strange, I'm sure I saw Yasser Arafat giving blood to help the people of New York after Sep 11.



Yup, and Hitler was anti-smoking and anti-pollution and lovingly patted little Hitler Youths on the cheek when being filmed. Arafat's a sweetheart just like 'ol Adolph.

On a side note, I've got a line on some wonderful investment opportunities on Florida swamp land, are you interested?


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1962424 - 09/29/03 10:09 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

While he gave blood

Sounds a little hard to win doesn't it randall. He runs out into the street and dances and you think he's bad, and he gives blood and you think he's bad.

Sounds like he's caught between a rock and a hard place doesn't it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1962461 - 09/29/03 10:36 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)


I am not defending fundamentalist Muslims.

Good. Because of their despicable actions, they do not deserve
to be defended; or to live for that matter.


I am merely challenging your self-serving, patriotic belief that
Americans never intentionally cause harm, or that we cause less harm
than other nations.

Did I ever say America never causes harm to any other nation or
people? Where in my message did I say that? Where in my
message did I insist that I am a "super-patriot"? If you read one
of my messages above, you will see where I openly criticize some
of America's foreign policy.


Do you know how many INNOCENT CIVILIANS died in this last Iraqi
crusade?

I'd like you to prove to me that Islamic fundamentalists have killed
over a million people. Just try it. I dare you.

Yes, it is true that because of the actions of America, innocent
people have died. There is a big difference though. The United
States does not make it a policy to target innocent civilians
(and don't bring up the a-bomb attacks on Japan...that was a different
scenario). When we kill innocent civilians, we do not do it
intentionally. Muslim terrorists do. If Muslim terrorists targeted
military targets only, I would have much more respect for them.


Better yet, do you know how many INNOCENT CIVILIANS died during the
Vietnam War, a war that was fought over ideology rather than
immediate defense concerns?


You're right. We should have let the communists, with all of their
imperialistic aims, run wild all over the world and do whatever
they wanted. We should not have raised a hand to stop them. We
should have stood idly by while they implemented their flawed economic
and ideological ideas upon the entire world. We should have let them
enslave the entire world. (Sarcasm)


America's PERPETUAL propensity to employ enormous military power for
political and economic gain as opposed to pure defense. Many, many
innocent people die as a result.

In this we are in agreement. America should withdraw all troops
on foreign soil and focus on defending our borders. The world will
probably be worse off as a result, but we will save a lot of money,
and nobody will have a reason to hate us.


Don't try to lecture me about September 11th, you redneck.

Well, Yeeeeeee-haaaaaawwwww! you city-clicker. Us simple folks ain't
got no brains to think through complicated matters like these.
(Sarcasm)


I know for a fact you were nowhere near New York City when the towers
fell.

Wow, not only are you a master debater, but you are psychic too.
By using your magic powers, you seem to be able to determine my
approximate location. (Sarcasm...in case you didn't pick up on that)


I also know that WHITE, PROTESTANT Germans did infinitely worse
things some sixty years ago.

Classic liberal behavior. Attempt to shift the blame off of the
perceived "underdog"(muslims) and do everything in your power to
demonize the "advantaged" group(white people).

Yes, there is no doubt that those "White Protestant Germans"
did some atrocious things. And, if I was alive back then,
I would have railed against them. But, in todays world, the
people committing the most atrocious acts on a regular basis
are Muslim extremists. So, I will rail against them.


I also know that there are plenty of Americans who commit just as
horrible crimes against one another in our own country. Ever heard of
Timothy McVeigh?


You compare the anomaly of one man acting alone to the actions of
thousands...maybe even millions of Muslim extremists? I don't
know if you are going to be able to admit the following fact: Muslim
extremism is rampant, intolerant, world-wide, and violent.


People are just shitty all over, and Americans are no exception. Your
patriotism blinds you to that fact.

I am not blinded by anything. Maybe you are blinded by liberalism.


You've never actually lived within a Muslim community, and your
entire understanding of the culture comes from CNN, etc.

Wow...again you display your amazing psychic power and jump to idiotic
conclusions that you have no proof of. My understanding of other
cultures does not depend on CNN. It depends on a myriad of sources.


Don't try to claim otherwise: I've seen your ilk a thousand times.

And, I've seen your ilk a thousand times. The self-hating
liberal who despises his country, his culture, and his origins.
It is perfectly acceptable and even necessary for an American to
question his government's actions. But, I can sense a "guilty white
liberal" bent oozing out of your pores. If you disagree with how
things are, then do something about it.


You think those political reasons were justified?


If it helps establish democracy in the Middle East, puts the fear
of "Allah" into Muslim terrorists, and brings peace and security to
that volatile area, then yes it is justified. I only hope it works
out.


Americans were laughing and cheering when the A-bombs were dropped on
Japan.


Well, maybe they were happy because instead of having to engage in
an invasion where perhaps a million American troops, Japanese troops,
and Japanese civilians would be killed, only 50,000 Japanese
civilians were killed. I would have done things differently if
I were in charge. I would have dropped the bomb on a remote area as
a warning to the Japanese. A Muslim terrorist would have dropped
one on every city and laughed the entire time.


You simply can't get through to the fact that Americans are nothing
special. No better, no worse.

We aren't special. But, neither are we monsters.


This idea that one's clan/race/religion/nation/etc. is special or
exceptional or better or morally superior or whatever has been the
primary scourge of the human intellect and peace among humans for the
duration of human history.

Once you adopt it, you enter into the same intellectual and moral
universe as those religious fundamentalists, one in which you blind
yourself to the faults of your own community and exaggerate the
failings of, and then ultimately DEHUMANIZE, other communities. It's
the same fundamental premise, and it is ALWAYS wrong. The root of all
evil.



Finally, something you say rings of the absolute truth.



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1962465 - 09/29/03 10:39 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)


Sounds a little hard to win doesn't it randall. He runs out into the
street and dances and you think he's bad, and he gives blood and you
think he's bad.


Maybe Arafat really was concerned and horrified about September 11th.
Too bad a lot of his fellow Palestinians were not.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1962779 - 09/29/03 01:09 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I think the vast majority of palestinians would have been horrified by sep 11.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Posts: 14,463
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1963114 - 09/29/03 03:09 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"You're right. We should have let the communists, with all of their
imperialistic aims, run wild all over the world and do whatever
they wanted. We should not have raised a hand to stop them. We
should have stood idly by while they implemented their flawed economic
and ideological ideas upon the entire world. We should have let them
enslave the entire world."




well did you ever hear......MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS

thoughout latin america countries that even LEANED that way, capitalist countries with a little bit of socialism

were attacked , either by america or funded by america

unless the countrys people are unhappy, mind your own fucking business

and dont start calling me a communist cause I am NOT

but we dont have real capitalism now these days either
Adam smith would be pissed!



--------------------

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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1964321 - 09/29/03 10:10 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Good. Because of their despicable actions, they do not deserve
to be defended; or to live for that matter.


RandalFlagg, judge, jury, and executioner of the world!

Are you saying that terrorists do not deserve to live, or that all fundamentalists, whether violent or not, deserve to die?

Do you not see that by presuming to judge who should live and who die, you have adopted the terrorist mindset yourself? Like you, terrorists do not stop to consider that their reasoning might be wrong. Like you, they believe that they have it on the highest evidence that the people they think should die really deserve to. You're far closer to the terrorists than someone who categorically refuses to pass such sentence is to either one of you. Try taking a long, hard look in the mirror.

Did I ever say America never causes harm to any other nation or
people? Where in my message did I say that? Where in my
message did I insist that I am a "super-patriot"? If you read one
of my messages above, you will see where I openly criticize some
of America's foreign policy.


Your previous posts make clear that you believe, without foundation, that Americans never intentionally cause harm. And while you may criticize some American foreign policy (which was that, by the way?) you obviously believe that Americans are intrinsicially good people while others, such as the Palestinians, are intrinsically not. This belief apparently stems from the fact that you saw some extremely stupid and misguided Palestinians celebrating the fact that the country (the US) which props up their oppressors (Israel) with money and weapons tasted the tragedy, injustice, and powerlessness that they've been living with for decades. Those common people who celebrated deserve the strongest rebuke for their lack of basic human decency, but they do no deserve to DIE, any more than the common Americans who celebrated victory over Japan deserve to die. Maybe if you stopped passing these hysterical death sentences on people you neither know nor understand, I would treat you like something other than a misguided lunatic.

Yes, it is true that because of the actions of America, innocent
people have died. There is a big difference though. The United
States does not make it a policy to target innocent civilians
(and don't bring up the a-bomb attacks on Japan...that was a different
scenario). When we kill innocent civilians, we do not do it
intentionally. Muslim terrorists do. If Muslim terrorists targeted
military targets only, I would have much more respect for them.


In the past, Western countries had a policy of not attacking civilian populations. That changed with World War II. At that time, the combatants started bombing cities and other civilian centers and it became all-out, no-holds-barred type of combat. The United States DID make it a policy to target innocent civilians. Everytime a B-17 dropped a bomb on a city instead of, say, a military airfield or munitions factory, it was targeting CIVILIANS. The firebombing of Dresden targeted civilians, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki targeted civilians. And NO, those were NOT a different scenario. Sorry, you cannot apply a double standard towards the killing of civilians. Entire villages in Vietnam were burned to the ground or napalmed on the "suspicion" that there was "VC activity" there. THAT was targeting civilians.

You're right. We should have let the communists, with all of their
imperialistic aims, run wild all over the world and do whatever
they wanted. We should not have raised a hand to stop them. We
should have stood idly by while they implemented their flawed economic
and ideological ideas upon the entire world. We should have let them
enslave the entire world. (Sarcasm)


Sorry to break this to you, but the communists WON the Vietnam War. I know it must come as kind of a shock to learn that the "domino effect theory" which you just presented, and which was the theoretical underpinning of the Vietnam War, was discredited long ago. No direct military confrontation against the communists ever resulted in a clear victory: Korea was a stalemate (although worth fighting because the North Korean invasion was naked aggression that couldn't be allowed to stand) and Vietnam was a humiliation. And no, fighting in Vietnam didn't stop the Soviets from "enslaving the entire world." They couldn't even beat the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan, much less "enslave the entire world".

Well, Yeeeeeee-haaaaaawwwww! you city-clicker. Us simple folks ain't
got no brains to think through complicated matters like these.
(Sarcasm)


Well, if the shoe fits . . .

You chose to take a patronizing attitude with me concerning 9/11, so I merely put you in your place.

A person's choice of residence has nothing to do with their intellectual capacities. It is generally the case, however, that rural residents have less opportunity to come in direct contact with people from other cultures, are less likely to learn foreign languages, to live or travel in foreign countries, or to be exposed to the full spectrum of intellectual alternatives. The straightforward virtues of loyalty, patriotism, hardwork, etc. tend to prevail. That's the way it is and has always been, and I don't have a problem with that. But I'm not interested in the views on foreign policy held by people who don't even have a passport. Perhaps you do, but nothing you've written so far shows evidence of any knowledge other than that obtained through news media.

Wow, not only are you a master debater, but you are psychic too.
By using your magic powers, you seem to be able to determine my
approximate location. (Sarcasm...in case you didn't pick up on that)


It doesn't take psychic powers to deduce something that's blatantly obvious.

Wow...again you display your amazing psychic power and jump to idiotic
conclusions that you have no proof of. My understanding of other
cultures does not depend on CNN. It depends on a myriad of sources.


And those myriad sources are? Do CNN plus Fox count as a "myriad" I wonder? Have you read scholarly histories of Palestine and the Middle East in general? If so, which ones? Have you traveled in the Middle East? Have you ever lived among Muslims? How many Muslims do you personally know? How many Palestinians do you personally know? How many Israelis? Can you read, or at least find access to translations of, news sources or scholarship written in French, German, Arabic? Have you ever watched any non-mass-media documentaries, such as that by James Longley, about conditions in the West Bank? If you can answer in the affirmative to these questions, you have access to a "myriad" of sources. If not, you're just getting the same recycled platitudes shared by the majority of Anglo-American mass media.

Classic liberal behavior. Attempt to shift the blame off of the
perceived "underdog"(muslims) and do everything in your power to
demonize the "advantaged" group(white people).
Yes, there is no doubt that those "White Protestant Germans"
did some atrocious things. And, if I was alive back then,
I would have railed against them. But, in todays world, the
people committing the most atrocious acts on a regular basis
are Muslim extremists. So, I will rail against them.


I am not demonizing white people, simply demonstrating that Muslims do not have a monopoly on murderousness. And also pointing out the historical fact that Christians have actually murdered more people throughout history than Muslims have. Which is not a defense of Islam. I find Islam silly and misguided, but I see that as function of the fact that it is an offshoot of two equally silly and misguided religions, namely Christianity and Judaism. These "sky-god" religions that were born in the deserts of the middle east have collectively been responsible for more human misery than any ideologies yet created by humankind. In fact, one can argue that communism itself is an outgrowth of the messianic fantasy-complex inherent in Judeo-Christianity. But that's a topic for a whole different thread.

You compare the anomaly of one man acting alone to the actions of
thousands...maybe even millions of Muslim extremists? I don't
know if you are going to be able to admit the following fact: Muslim
extremism is rampant, intolerant, world-wide, and violent.


He wasn't acting alone. There are plenty more like him who would do the same if given the chance. I'm sure there are quite a few so-called "libertarians" or "freedom lovers" even on this forum who sympathize, at least in theory, with the principle of taking violent action against the government, which was McVeigh's whole point. And the day care center that was in that building he demolished is simply "collateral damage" in the war against government oppression.

And yes, I do admit that Muslim extremism is rampant, intolerant, worldwide, and violent. Show me anywhere that I said otherwise. Where you and I differ rests on two points: first, I consider nationalism, including American nationalism, just as much a threat to the world and to the lives of innocent people, as radical Islam. Second, I do not believe that demonizing Islam and calling for the murder of all fundamentalists is the correct way to address the problem of radical Islam. Creating endless cycles of retaliation does not create peace--it merely creates situations like the one in the West Bank.

And, I've seen your ilk a thousand times. The self-hating
liberal who despises his country, his culture, and his origins.
It is perfectly acceptable and even necessary for an American to
question his government's actions. But, I can sense a "guilty white
liberal" bent oozing out of your pores. If you disagree with how
things are, then do something about it.


What makes you think I hate myself? Your statement assumes that my sense of "self" is inextricably linked to my nationality. This is further evidence of the fact that the virus of nationalism has colonized your mind completely. And since I do not believe in the fictitious community called "the nation" I am also incapable of believing in "collective guilt" or "collective responsibility", so I how can I feel guilty about something that people in the past did who have no connection with me whatsoever other than the fact that we're both white and call ourselves American?

What you call the "self-hating liberal" attitude is simply a refusal to apply a double standard which forgives the misdeeds of the "home team" and exaggerates the failings of the "enemy." I don't know why conversatives find it impossible to fathom this attitude, but it might have something to do with the fact that their view of the world is deeply rooted in things like clannishness, and competitive sports, where you're supposed to root for the home team. I have no use for this. I consider myself a human being first, an individual second, a member of my family third, and an American maybe fourth or fifth.

If liberals err, we err on the side of applying a higher standard to ourselves and our own countries than we do for others. But I see nothing wrong with this because only by applying the highest possible standard to oneself can one ever improve. Blaming others does nothing to improve oneself, and in fact it does nothing to improve others either.

If it helps establish democracy in the Middle East, puts the fear
of "Allah" into Muslim terrorists, and brings peace and security to
that volatile area, then yes it is justified. I only hope it works
out.


Put the fear of "Allah" into Muslim terrorists? You're kidding, right?
Have the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq put the fear of Allah into those guerrillas who are picking off American soldiers in Iraq with impunity as we speak?

Can you not see the excruciatingly obvious, basic logical contradiction of trying to intimidate with force people who are not afraid of death?

And where exactly, six months on, is the democracy, peace, and security that this invasion was supposed to bring? If anything, the middle east is even more unstable now than it was before. Terrorists have been pouring into Iraq ever since Saddam's regime fell. Saddam is still on the loose, as is Osama bin Laden.

Well, maybe they were happy because instead of having to engage in
an invasion where perhaps a million American troops, Japanese troops,
and Japanese civilians would be killed, only 50,000 Japanese
civilians were killed.


100,000 were killed in Hiroshima, 50,000 in Nagasaki. Total: 150,000. THREE TIMES the bogus statistic you pulled out of your ass, yet again. I hope you realize that every time you do that you display an ignorance of history that tends to discredit everything you say. As far as why all of those people were happy goes, we will never know for sure, but I have no doubt that many of them were happy to see the Japanese suffer and die. Americans are not immune from the human desire for revenge.

I would have done things differently if
I were in charge. I would have dropped the bomb on a remote area as
a warning to the Japanese. A Muslim terrorist would have dropped
one on every city and laughed the entire time.


Now you're comparing what YOU would have done against what a terrorist would have done, instead of comparing the far more pertinent issue of what AMERICA DID DO against what a terrorist would have done. If a terrorist had two a-bombs, he would have dropped them both on populated cities. Oops! That's exactly what America did! Except that a terrorist would have been all smiles afterwards. Oops! The average American was all smiles when the war ended! The only difference was that our politicians made grave faces and spoke in somber tones about the dreadful necessity of what they HAD to do. So I guess if politicians spout rhetoric, that makes it alright, right? That makes all the difference.

We aren't special. But, neither are we monsters.

And neither is the average Muslim or the average Palestinian.

Finally, something you say rings of the absolute truth.

If you sincerely think so, maybe you should try a little harder to apply it to your own thinking.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1964833 - 09/30/03 12:49 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

well said,

"If liberals err, we err on the side of applying a higher standard to ourselves and our own countries than we do for others"

it's unfortunate that so many people mistake this sentiment for self-hatred, guilt or whatever. they just don't get it.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1965527 - 09/30/03 09:41 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You compare the anomaly of one man acting alone to the actions of thousands...maybe even millions of Muslim extremists?

Come on randall, what percentage of muslims do you think are terrorists? Say you go to a muslim country and your kid gets knocked down in the street (NOT by a muslim terrorist!) and you run to the nearest door for help. What's the chances they're gonna help you? I really can't see many of them breaking out the dancing shoes.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1965560 - 09/30/03 09:59 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I have a feeling we are going to start going in circles with our
arguments. I will sum things up:

I did not pull the 50,000 figure "out of my ass".
It was my knowledge that approximately 100,000 were killed in
Hiroshima and approximately 50,000 were killed in Nagasaki. I
actually looked it up some on the the internet and I got the figures
of 130,000 and 70,000. When I said the 50,000 figure I did it
haphazardly. My brain only remembered Nagasaki's death toll. I made
a mistake.

I am resentful that you automatically stereotype me as some small
town hick. You mistake me for some dumb, beer-drinking, football
loving pro-American zealot. Ironically, you could not be further
from the truth. That attitude makes you appear to be a pretensious
elitist. I do have a passport. I have been to Europe, most major
cities in the United States, and I have met Muslims.

It seems that our natural combativeness and preconceptions are
tainting our debate. I'll admit that I get riled up fairly easily,
and when that happens I am more likely to engage in sniping at the
other person than to engage in reasoned debate. And, if you can't
tell, I do have a thing against liberals.

I don't agree with a lot of things this country is doing and has done.
I think that we have done and are doing some absolutely wrong things
in the Middle East. I don't think we should prop up the governments
that we do. I don't think we should give them money and weapons. I
don't think we should kiss Israel's ass every chance we get. I
think we should take all of the money we send to these countries and
spend it on research for alternative energy cars so that we don't need
all of that oil.

You seem to recognize that terrorists who target innocent civilians
are bad people. I agree.

You have gotten across the point that ANYBODY is capable of shitty
things, not just Muslims. I agree whole-heartedly. Yes, Americans
have done some shitty things in the past. An American is every bit
as capable as a Muslim of descending down a path that preaches
violence.

I guess my main point in all of this was that it is an indisputable
fact that(I am quoting from a previous message of mine)

Muslim extremism is rampant, intolerant, world-wide, and violent.


I think that Muslim extremists represent a clear and present danger
to most countries around this world. We must make an effort to stop
all people who wish to initiate force against innocent civilians.
And, before you start screaming, "But, what about America!!"; I mean
America as well.



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