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OfflineSirTripAlot
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More stupidity from the Middle East
    #5433067 - 03/23/06 06:07 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

How tolerant that side of the globe is. You have the French and Dutch banning traditional Muslim garb for females; active participation by Saudi Arabia and Pakistan in blowing up historical artifacts in Afghanistan..........


Bush Troubled by Afghan Convert's Case
Mar 22 12:54 PM US/Eastern

By JENNIFER LOVEN
Associated Press Writer


WHEELING, W.Va.


President Bush said Wednesday that he is "deeply troubled" that an Afghan man is being tried for converting to Christianity.

Abdul Rahman, 41, faces a possible death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity 16 years ago. He has been charged with rejecting Islam, a crime under this country's Islamic laws. Bush said in a speech that a young democracy is growing in Afghanistan, but he's concerned about the case.



"We expect them to honor the universal principle of freedom," Bush said. "I'm troubled when I hear, deeply troubled when I hear, the fact that a person who converted away from Islam may be held to account. That's not the universal application of the values that I talked about. I look forward to working with the government of that country to make sure that people are protected in their capacity to worship."

Rahman's trial started last week, but a state prosecutor said Wednesday that he may be mentally unfit to stand trial. Moayuddin Baluch, a religious adviser to President Hamid Karzai, said Rahman would undergo a psychological examination and the case will be dropped if he's found mentally unfit.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5433116 - 03/23/06 06:45 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

> "We expect them to honor the universal principle of freedom," Bush said.

Any how many people are rotting in US jails because they used their universal principle of freedom to grow or injest a harmless plant... the double face of American politics shines through... do as I say, not as I do...


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Seuss]
    #5433370 - 03/23/06 08:57 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I spent a night in jail for possession of a controlled substance.
The judge gave me one year probation and  community service.

40 hours of community service sorting and re-shelving library books. (it sucked!) i even got a paper cut, oh the humanity....

I wonder if converted Christians  in the Middle East have to work in the library????????? :rolleyes:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5433452 - 03/23/06 09:19 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

> I spent a night in jail for possession of a controlled substance.

A friend of the family is spending life in prison in the US for growing cannabis... he was sentenced during the Regan years and is still in prison to this day... for growing the same plant as Thomas Jefferson.

Even a night in jail and working in the library as a slave is insane for nothing more than having an 'illegal' substance in your possession. Where is that freedom we love so dearly, again?

I'm not trying to defend Islam, but rather I am trying point out that our so called freedom is mostly smoke and mirrors. Compared to the middle east, we have a TON more freedom than they do, but we are a long way from true freedom that responsible, mature adults, should have...


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Seuss]
    #5433474 - 03/23/06 09:25 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I am trying to point out HOW FAR BEHIND they are.

Even if you are a Bush hater or not, condemning someone to death for their religion is wrong, that is what Bush is saying.

Why are these people still stuck in the stone age?

Is it their own stupidity or is it America's fault?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5433505 - 03/23/06 09:31 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Even if you are a Bush hater or not, condemning someone to death for their religion is wrong, that is what Bush is saying.




Condeming somebody to life in prison, which to me is worse than death, because they grew a harmless plant is no different than condeming someone to death for their religion. Regardless of liking Bush or not, the US system is very biased. We like to pretend that we are mighty and moral, but the fact is that in some cases, we are no further ahead than the people we are putting down. This is a double standard that everybody wants to ignore... it is no wonder that the middle east extremists find it so easy to get their followers angry at us.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5433550 - 03/23/06 09:38 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Abdul Rahman, 41, faces a possible death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity 16 years ago. He has been charged with rejecting Islam, a crime under this country's Islamic laws.

why is so much of the muslim world stuck in the middle ages?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5434039 - 03/23/06 11:22 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

But...but...I thought we "liberated" Afghanistan. :confused:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Seuss]
    #5434931 - 03/23/06 03:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

Even if you are a Bush hater or not, condemning someone to death for their religion is wrong, that is what Bush is saying.




Condeming somebody to life in prison, which to me is worse than death, because they grew a harmless plant is no different than condeming someone to death for their religion. Regardless of liking Bush or not, the US system is very biased. We like to pretend that we are mighty and moral, but the fact is that in some cases, we are no further ahead than the people we are putting down. This is a double standard that everybody wants to ignore... it is no wonder that the middle east extremists find it so easy to get their followers angry at us.




Start your own thread instead of hijacking this one. They chop the heads off of dopers there.

Getting back on point, the Muslim leadership is a conglomeration of fearful fascists. When Muslim human beings manage to wrest control away from the whack jobs then and only then will they enter the 21st century. As long as they deify their mullahs they are doomed


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5435848 - 03/23/06 08:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Does the United States imprison people because of their religion?

NO.

Judging how one sided the United States is, solely from its drug policy is inaccurate and quite frankly, biased.

There are many things wrong with the United States, however, freedom of thought prevail here more then any were else!!!


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Seuss]
    #5435993 - 03/23/06 09:16 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Your drug war analogy is flawed. There is a difference between people being imprisoned for possessing a substance and somebody being executed for exercising their free will and engaging in a particular type of belief system. By the way, if you think the American drug war is bad go to Saudi Arabia where they will hack off your head if you are caught with a joint.

I try to be tolerant. I am quite willing to admit that the Muslims have a reason to be mad at America. I don't want any American troops to die, but at the same time I can understand the viewpoints of the various groups of the Iraqi insurgency. But, I just cannot fathom the absolute backwardness which rules a significant amount of the Muslim world. They are willing to put people to death for turning away from their religion? Granted, not all Muslims support this. But, there is a high enough percentage of Muslims that are absolute nutcases that it makes me immediately suspicious of Muslims and their religion.

I'm getting to the point that I think these people don't deserve our money, our help, our reconstruction efforts, or democracy. I say we let these people wallow in the dark ages where they belong. In my more irrational moods, I am almost tempted to support lobbing a few nukes at them just to get rid of them.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5436955 - 03/24/06 01:42 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Does the United States imprison people because of their religion?


What if your religion involves the use of entheogens?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5436960 - 03/24/06 01:45 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Your drug war analogy is flawed. There is a difference between people being imprisoned for possessing a substance and somebody being executed for exercising their free will and engaging in a particular type of belief system. By the way, if you think the American drug war is bad go to Saudi Arabia where they will hack off your head if you are caught with a joint.


Then again the US is the main enforcer behind the worldwide drug war. If the US lightened up on persecuting people for the terrible crime of ingesting a plant I'm sure the situation would ease in many other countries.

They could certainly instruct their pals in the Saudi dictatorship to lighten up.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Alex213]
    #5437109 - 03/24/06 03:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I doubt that Saudi Arabia bases any of its drug laws upon U.S. desires. They will execute you for adultery over there....they obviously didn't get that one from America.

There is this common argument that drugs are illegal in the U.S., the U.S. is the world's only superpower, and therefore the U.S. has the power to affect drug policy throughout the globe. Most of the time when drugs are illegal and there are harsh penalties in other countries, this has nothing to do with the U.S.


Edited by RandalFlagg (03/24/06 03:51 AM)


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5437161 - 03/24/06 04:41 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

To be honest I thought pot was fairly well tolerated in some muslim countries.

The USA led crackdown on drugs in the twentieth century is by far the biggest contribution to prohibition tho. If the most powerful country in the world hadn't been so deranged on this I doubt the rest of the world would have bothered.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Alex213]
    #5437286 - 03/24/06 06:18 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Alex213 stated:
What if your religion involves the use of entheogens?


I do believe that the USA drug policy needs to be revamped in the form of decriminalizing drug offenses. However, Native
Americans can still use peyote

Look at this site. With the exception of a few States, you can procure just about anything. As long as you dont plan to sell, and are smart, you will remain under the radar screen.

In Saudi Arabia, if a you are caught drunk driving, they throw you, AND your entire family in prison.

Compared to this, how can America be viewed in the same bad light?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5437296 - 03/24/06 06:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Update:


WASHINGTON ? Concerned about the fate of a Christian convert in Afghanistan on trial for his life, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice telephoned Afghan President Hamid Karzai on Thursday seeking a "favorable resolution" of the case.

"This is a very deeply concerning development in Afghanistan and we have raised it at the highest levels,? Rice said during a press conference with the Greek minister of foreign affairs. ?We look forward, hopefully, to a resolution to this in the very near future."

Abdul Rahman, 41, a medical aid worker, converted from Islam to Christianity 16 years ago, a fact that came out publicly during a civil custody case between him and his wife in front of local authorities. The authorities charged him with rejecting Islam, a crime under the country's Shar'ia-based law. The penalty, if guilty, is death.

Rice said religious freedom is the heart of democracy, a principle she hopes Afghanistan would uphold in its constitution in considering Rahman's case.

?We have raised it in the strongest possible terms to make clear that it is our great hope and desire that Afghanistan will reaffirm what is already in its constitution, that the universal declaration on human rights will be respected, and that this will be resolved in a way that is consistent with those principles," Rice said.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleRogues_Pierre
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5437324 - 03/24/06 06:48 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The problem is that a muslim can't become a non-muslim or he/she gets the death penalty under Sharia law. Muslim theocracies are trying to force the entire world to convert to Islam and have Sharia law in all countries. Sharia law is far less tolerant than laws in western countries including the USA. If the anti-Americans can't see that then they are helping the muslim terrorists take over the world.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5437985 - 03/24/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

do believe that the USA drug policy needs to be revamped in the form of decriminalizing drug offenses. However, Native
Americans can still use peyote



And if a white guy wants to use peyote in his religious beliefs?

With the exception of a few States, you can procure just about anything

You can get drugs in many muslim countries too. In fact in Morocco I've heard the cops don't bother arresting people for pot.

As long as you dont plan to sell, and are smart, you will remain under the radar screen.


Well you can avoid being caught in Saudi arabia with a bit of luck too. Just the same as here.

In Saudi Arabia, if a you are caught drunk driving, they throw you, AND your entire family in prison.


Saudi is probably the most extreme and vicous muslim dictatorshop tho. And as for being thrown in prison for drug offences - you can't really say America has too good a record on that.

how can America be viewed in the same bad light?

Because, correct me if I'm wrong, but the source, funding and power behind this medieval war on drugs has been America since the twenties. If Saudi Arabia had been behind spreading the drug war around the world where would it be? Fucking nowhere.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Alex213]
    #5438193 - 03/24/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
To be honest I thought pot was fairly well tolerated in some muslim countries.




Penalties for the import, manufacture, possession, and consumption of alcohol or illegal drugs are severe. Convicted offenders can expect jail sentences, fines, public flogging, and/or deportation. The penalty for drug trafficking in Saudi Arabia is death. Saudi officials make no exceptions.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1012.html

Quote:

Alex213 said:
The USA led crackdown on drugs in the twentieth century is by far the biggest contribution to prohibition tho. If the most powerful country in the world hadn't been so deranged on this I doubt the rest of the world would have bothered.




I call bullshit. While there have been instances of the U.S. government using aid or coercion with other governments when it came to drugs (Colombia for example) show me proof that all of the other countries that have crafted anti-drug legislation (about 99% of the nations of this world) did so because America did.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5438209 - 03/24/06 12:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

making the case that most americans have more freedom to use recreational drugs than people in backwards-assed fundamentalist muslim countries isn't saying much.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5438299 - 03/24/06 01:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Saudi officials make no exceptions.

That's Saudi tho. I always thought many Islamic societies were tolerant of cannabis until the US forced them into prohibition. Wasn't pot legal in Morrocco until 1960 when the US cracked down on them?

call bullshit. While there have been instances of the U.S. government using aid or coercion with other governments when it came to drugs (Colombia for example) show me proof that all of the other countries that have crafted anti-drug legislation (about 99% of the nations of this world) did so because America did.

I'd have to read up on the history but I thought the UN anti-drug conventions were the root of the problem. I know a lot of european countries want to relax drug laws but because they've signed up to the UN and know the US would go absolutely fucking apeshit with them if they tried going easy on drugs.

The US is always the problem whenever anyone tries to reform the UN conventions.

The CND's annual meeting serves as a forum for nations to debate drug policy. At the 2005 meeting, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Canada, Australia and Iran rallied in opposition to the UN's zero-tolerance approach in international drug policy. Their appeal was vetoed by the United States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Convention_on_Narcotic_Drugs


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Alex213]
    #5438350 - 03/24/06 01:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Tuesday's Washington Post carried a startling update of new policies in Iran. Once a staunch co-supporter of U.S.-style zero tolerance drug policies, the government of Iran appears ready enact some smarter programs.

Fearing an AIDS epidemic, Iran's government has dropped a zero-tolerance policy against increasingly common heroin use and now offers addicts low-cost needles, methadone and a measure of social acceptance.

Reports from the past few weeks indicate that other former zero-tolerance governments are making similar shifts, including China and Malaysia.

Meanwhile, in the U.S. the Office of National Drug Control Policy continues to work against nearly every form of harm reduction.


AIDS CRISIS BRINGS RADICAL CHANGE IN IRAN'S RESPONSE TO HEROIN USE

Health Concerns Given Precedence Over Prosecution

TEHRAN -- Fearing an AIDS epidemic, Iran's theocratic government has dropped a zero-tolerance policy against increasingly common heroin use and now offers addicts low-cost needles, methadone and a measure of social acceptance.

For two decades, Iran largely avoided the global AIDS crisis. But today, officials are alarmed by a 25 percent HIV infection rate that one survey has found among hard-core heroin users and worry that addicts may channel the virus into the population of 68 million.

Supporters of the government's new approach laud it as practical and devoid of the wishful thinking and moralism that they contend hampers policies on drug abuse and AIDS in some other countries, including the United States. "I have to pay tribute to Iran on this," said Roberto Arbitrio, head of the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime in Tehran.

Bijan Nasirimanesh, who heads a drop-in clinic that dispenses needles, bleach and methadone in a hard-hit area of south Tehran, said, "It's ironic that Iran, very fundamentalist, very religious -- very religious -- has been able to convince itself" to embrace such policies.

Opponents often argue that tolerance of life-destroying drugs is simply unacceptable and in the long run breeds acceptance and higher drug use. But in the theocracy's most dramatic rejection of that approach, the ayatollah who heads Iran's conservative judiciary issued an executive order embracing "such needed and fruitful programs" as needle exchanges and methadone maintenance.

Ayatollah Mohammad Esmail Shoshtari, the justice minister who has shut more than 100 newspapers and imprisoned political opponents, instructed prosecutors in a Jan. 24 letter to ignore laws on the books and defer to Iran's Health Ministry to counter the spread of AIDS and hepatitis C.

"This was a very crucial step," said Ali Hashemi, director of Iran's Drug Control Headquarters, a cabinet-level office. "Inevitably we have to do this in order to reduce the risk of AIDS."

Still, many drug experts say the government has shown a consistent disregard for orthodoxies in this fight. Mokri said he was astonished to encounter no official resistance when he set out to launch a pilot program that will dispense actual opium instead of methadone to addicts.

He noted a bill pending in the U.S. Congress calling for imprisoning Americans who failed to report marijuana dealers. "Sometimes I think the ayatollahs are more liberal," Mokri said.


http://www.mapinc.org/alert/0312.html


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Alex213]
    #5438620 - 03/24/06 02:48 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

My God! The United States should be more like Iran!!!!!



Its funny how the America haters and the Bush haters, cant stomach this president simply standing up for a mans life.


Shouldn't the liberals be applauding Bush for his stance on religious freedom?

NO!!!

Lets equate the anti drug policy of the USA and its illegal war to prove that Bush has no moral ground to stick up for a man who might die because of his religion.

Fucking limpwristed indecisive pansies!!!!!!!!!


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Alex213]
    #5438812 - 03/24/06 04:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Your drug war analogy is flawed. There is a difference between people being imprisoned for possessing a substance and somebody being executed for exercising their free will and engaging in a particular type of belief system. By the way, if you think the American drug war is bad go to Saudi Arabia where they will hack off your head if you are caught with a joint.


Then again the US is the main enforcer behind the worldwide drug war. If the US lightened up on persecuting people for the terrible crime of ingesting a plant I'm sure the situation would ease in many other countries.






Complete and utter bullshit. Almost every nation in the world has laws against drug use, more than a few against alcohol. What do they do to you if you have wine with dinner in Iran?

mistyped "wine"


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Edited by zappaisgod (03/24/06 05:01 PM)


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5438915 - 03/24/06 04:49 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Shariah Law is a joke and it's frankly hilarious when it's actually enforced


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5438925 - 03/24/06 04:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Its funny how the America haters and the Bush haters, cant stomach this president simply standing up for a mans life.



It's funny how we invaded this country a few years ago and supposedly got rid of an oppressive government.  It's nice to see my tax dollars are going to a good cause. :rolleyes:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Silversoul]
    #5438955 - 03/24/06 05:03 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Its funny how the America haters and the Bush haters, cant stomach this president simply standing up for a mans life.



It's funny how we invaded this country a few years ago and supposedly got rid of an oppressive government.  It's nice to see my tax dollars are going to a good cause. :rolleyes:




Your tax dollars?  YOUR tax dollars?  Puhleeze.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5439008 - 03/24/06 05:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Believe it or not, I do pay taxes.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Silversoul]
    #5439064 - 03/24/06 05:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Believe it or not, I do pay taxes.




Really?  I thought you were still chilling on the couch at your parent's place.



:smirk:


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5439069 - 03/24/06 05:46 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I actually recently landed a job. But even aside from that, the fact remains that I have had jobs before, and consequently paid taxes. Furthermore, this has nothing to do with the topic.


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Alex213]
    #5439111 - 03/24/06 06:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
The US is always the problem




I'm absolutely shocked to hear you say this.  :smirk:

Quote:

Alex213 said:
The CND's annual meeting serves as a forum for nations to debate drug policy. At the 2005 meeting, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Canada, Australia and Iran rallied in opposition to the UN's zero-tolerance approach in international drug policy. Their appeal was vetoed by the United States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Convention_on_Narcotic_Drugs




Countries routinely ignore UN "rules and regulations".  The UN issues all kinds of proclamations and a lot of the time individual nations don't listen or listen half-heartedly.

Indonesia is incredibly harsh on drug violators (the news forum is full of stories of tourists getting busted with a joint or an E pill and facing hard prison time).  That is another example of a nation that has harsher drug penalties than America.  In order for these anti-drug laws to exist in other countries there has to be some amount of public support for them in these other countries.  I would be interested in seeing some polls from foreign countries that show support or non-support for drug prohibition.  If there is a significant amount of people in other countries that support drug prohibition, I think this would be ample proof that support for drug prohibition springs from areas other than "America using its influence to get its way".


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Silversoul]
    #5439115 - 03/24/06 06:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Furthermore, this has nothing to do with the topic.




Calm down there buddy. I was just pulling your leg.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Silversoul]
    #5439136 - 03/24/06 06:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
I actually recently landed a job. 





Congratulations.  When you move out I'll change my sig. :cool:


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Edited by zappaisgod (03/24/06 06:12 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5439154 - 03/24/06 06:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Ouch....that's harsh.

Getting off topic again. Must....stop....myself....from...post-whoring.


Edited by RandalFlagg (03/24/06 06:15 PM)


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5439703 - 03/24/06 09:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Paradigm stated:

It's funny how we invaded this country a few years ago and supposedly got rid of an oppressive government. It's nice to see my tax dollars are going to a good cause.


At the bar minimum, at least the USA is trying to actively exterminate the plague of the Taliban while the rest Europe drinks their wine.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5439748 - 03/24/06 10:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Update:

Muslim clerics: Convert must die
Religious leaders urge courts to ignore West, hang Christian

Friday, March 24, 2006; Posted: 12:24 a.m. EST (05:24 GMT)


Afghanistan (AP) -- Senior Muslim clerics are demanding that an Afghan man on trial for converting from Islam to Christianity be executed, warning that if the government caves in to Western pressure and frees him, they will incite people to "pull him into pieces."

In an unusual move, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice telephoned President Hamid Karzai on Thursday seeking a "favorable resolution" of the case of Abdul Rahman. The 41-year-old former medical aid worker faces the death penalty under Afghanistan's Islamic laws for becoming a Christian.

His trial has fired passions in this conservative Muslim nation and highlighted a conflict of values between Afghanistan and its Western backers.

"Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die," said cleric Abdul Raoulf, who is considered a moderate and was jailed three times for opposing the Taliban before the hard-line regime was ousted in 2001.

The trial, which began last week, has caused an international outcry. U.S. President George W. Bush has said he is "deeply troubled" by the case and expects Afghanistan to "honor the universal principle of freedom." (Watch how Rahman's case troubles the West -- 1:17)

Rice spokesman Sean McCormack said she told Karzai it is important for the Afghan people to know that freedom of religion is observed in their country.

Her direct appeal to a foreign leader in a judicial proceeding in their own country was unusual. But in deference to the country's sovereignty, Rice evidently did not demand specifically that the trial be halted and the defendant released.

"This is clearly an Afghan decision," McCormack said.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel told reporters she had received assurances from Karzai in a telephone call that Rahman would not be sentenced to death.

Diplomats have said the Afghan government is searching for a way to drop the case. On Wednesday, authorities said Rahman is suspected of being mentally ill and would undergo psychological examinations to see whether he is fit to stand trial.

But three Sunni preachers and a Shiite one interviewed by The Associated Press in four of Kabul's most popular mosques said they do not believe Rahman is insane.

"He is not crazy. He went in front of the media and confessed to being a Christian," said Hamidullah, chief cleric at Haji Yacob Mosque. "The government is scared of the international community. But the people will kill him if he is freed."

Raoulf, who is a member of the country's main Islamic organization, the Afghan Ulama Council, concurred. "The government is playing games. The people will not be fooled."

"Cut off his head!" he exclaimed, sitting in a courtyard outside Herati Mosque. "We will call on the people to pull him into pieces so there's nothing left."

He said the only way for Rahman to survive would be for him to go into exile.

But Said Mirhossain Nasri, the top cleric at Hossainia Mosque, one of the largest Shiite places of worship in Kabul, said Rahman must not be allowed to leave the country.

"If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can, too," he said. "We must set an example. ... He must be hanged."

The clerics said they were angry with the United States and other countries for pushing for Rahman's freedom.

"We are a small country and we welcome the help the outside world is giving us. But please don't interfere in this issue," Nasri said. "We are Muslims and these are our beliefs. This is much more important to us than all the aid the world has given us."

Afghanistan's constitution is based on Sharia law, which is interpreted by many Muslims to require that any Muslim who rejects Islam be sentenced to death.

Hamidullah warned that the government would lose the support of the people if it frees Rahman, and "there will be an uprising" like the one against Soviet occupying forces in the 1980s.

Human rights group Amnesty International said if Rahman has been detained solely for his religious beliefs, he would be a "prisoner of conscience" and that the charges should be dropped.

Rahman is believed to have lived in Germany for nine years after converting to Christianity while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He returned to Kabul in 2002.

It was not immediately clear when Rahman's trial would resume. Authorities have barred attempts by the AP to see him and he is not believed to have a lawyer


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5441150 - 03/25/06 01:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

At the bar minimum, at least the USA is trying to actively exterminate the plague of the Taliban

Nope. They're doing no such thing.


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5441155 - 03/25/06 01:57 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Countries routinely ignore UN "rules and regulations".

Not in the area of drugs. And especially not when America is waving the big stick.


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5441355 - 03/25/06 03:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"The chief judge and Afghan Supreme Court justice Ansarullah Mawlawizadah said that Rahman would be asked to reconsider his conversion: "We will invite him again because the religion of Islam is one of tolerance. We will ask him if he has changed his mind. If so we will forgive him." Judge Mawlawizadah further noted that "The Prophet Muhammad has said several times that those who convert from Islam should be killed if they refuse to come back" and that even while this is so, "Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, kindness and integrity. That is why we have told [Rahman] if he regrets what he did, then we will forgive him" The judge added more ominously: "If [Abdul Rahman] does not repent, you will all be witness to the sort of punishment he will face."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_%28convert%29

:what:

islam =  :thumbdown:


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5442000 - 03/25/06 07:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

i'd like to address something....

we frequently hear something like, "not all muslims support that sort of thing, just the fundamentalist/orthodox/crazy ones".

if i'm not mistaken, to be a muslim, you must believe in the qur'an and that it was sent by god to his prophet muhammad (part of islam's third 'article of faith' and first tenet). if you do not believe this, you are not a muslim.

the muslim creed:

"I testify that there is no god but God Almighty, Who is One (and only One) and there is no associate with Him; and I testify that Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him), is His Messenger."

if god's book, and god's messenger, say to put people to death for apostasy (and all of the other lunacies of sharia law), then if you are a muslim, you must support this. if you don't, you are not a muslim, by definition. islam has a political side, which if you are a muslim, you believe is divine as realized by god himself, whom you worship and obey.

islam is fundamentalist by nature. it is incompatible with freedom and democracy. allah didn't prescribe freedom of the press, or the vote, or anything of the sort. allah prescribed death for apostates. we need to stop making excuses and concessions for islam. it is a violent, intolerant faith.


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5442016 - 03/25/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

That's an easy claim to make with no Muslims here to refute it, just as it would be easy for someone else to make similar claims about Christianity, which I constantly refute. In the absence of any qualified expert to counter such claims, I think such statements are little more than ego stroking and intellectual masturbation.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Silversoul]
    #5442023 - 03/25/06 07:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
That's an easy claim to make with no Muslims here to refute it, just as it would be easy for someone else to make similar claims about Christianity, which I constantly refute.  In the absence of any qualified expert to counter such claims, I think such statements are little more than ego stroking and intellectual masturbation.




"Intellectual masturbation"?  I say that all of the time...I think you stole it from me.  :smirk:

Where's that lovable Zahid when you need him?


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Silversoul]
    #5442051 - 03/25/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

t would be easy for someone else to make similar claims about Christianity

it would not, because it is not an article of faith in christianity that the bible or any other christian works are the revealed word of god. many christians recognize that the bible is a collection of various books written at different times by different authors, many of whom were normal men.

what makes a christian does not include the belief that the bible is the word of god, nor does the bible prescribe a repressive political system in nearly the same authority, detail, or severity as the qu'ran.

what makes a person a muslim on the other hand, does include the belief that the qur'an is the revealed word of god, and it does prescribe a political system that... well, speaks for itself.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5442058 - 03/25/06 07:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Yep...a significant amount of the Muslims are wackos. It's pretty obvious. Now this does not mean that all of them are...but a lot of them are.


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5442071 - 03/25/06 08:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
"Intellectual masturbation"?  I say that all of the time...I think you stole it from me.  :smirk:



I believe it's a rather common term.

Quote:

Where's that lovable Zahid when you need him?



I think he might have gotten permabanned.  I'm not sure.


Anyway, from what I know about Islam, there has always been an esoteric tradition within it, just like in Christianity.  And as with Christianity, it has been largely drowned out by the much more popular exoteric literalist version.  There are passages in the Bible that fundamentalist Christians will point to which say that the Bible is infallible, and I'm sure fundamentalist Muslims are likely to do the same with the Koran.  One thing they both have in common is quoting out of context and losing sight of the big picture.


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5442073 - 03/25/06 08:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
it would not, because it is not an article of faith in christianity that the bible or any other christian works are the revealed word of god.



Try telling that to any Southern Baptist minister.


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5442088 - 03/25/06 08:07 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

all of them are. all muslims believe:

a) that god said people who convert from islam should be killed

and

b) that this command must be obeyed.

therefore all muslims believe that those who convert from islam, engage in homosexual acts, insult islam or muhammad, etc., should be killed, as is the will of god revealed to his prophet muhammad (peace be upon him).

"muslims" who don't believe this either don't believe that god said to kill apostates (qur'an not the will of god, muhammad not his prophet = not a muslim) or that the command should be disobeyed (defiance of god's will = not a muslim).


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5442092 - 03/25/06 08:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
all of them are. all muslims believe:

a) that god said people who convert from islam should be killed

and

b) that this command must be obeyed.



Have you asked them, or are you just talking out your ass?


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Silversoul]
    #5442098 - 03/25/06 08:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Try telling that to any Southern Baptist minister.

certainly, there are many christians who believe that the bible is the literal word of god. many others do not, but they are still christians. a "muslim" who believes that the qur'an, or the other books (i think there are 5 total) is not the literal word of god however, is not a muslim.

so there are some fundamentalist christians and some non-fundamentalist christians. there is no such division in islam. if you do not believe that the qu'ran is the revealed word of god, and that it must be obeyed, you are not a muslim.


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Silversoul]
    #5442105 - 03/25/06 08:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Have you asked them, or are you just talking out your ass?

read the second part of that post please.


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5442108 - 03/25/06 08:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Well, for one thing, the second part of the post mentions homosexual acts, even though Muhammed himself was silent on the subject(much like Jesus). So I'm going to have to ask you why a true Muslim would demand the death penalty for something the Koran does not condemn.


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5442125 - 03/25/06 08:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
Try telling that to any Southern Baptist minister.

certainly, there are many christians who believe that the bible is the literal word of god. many others do not, but they are still christians. a "muslim" who believes that the qur'an, or the other books (i think there are 5 total) is not the literal word of god however, is not a muslim.



They may believe it was revealed by God, but that doesn't mean they don't interpret it in context or understand it symbolically.

Muslim fundamentalists take the Koran out of context, as do you, apparently. The places where it calls for violence are almost always in the context of defending oneself and fellow Muslims against attackers. It also teaches mercy and kindness.

Your understanding of Islam is like basing one's understanding of Christianity on Pat Robertson.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Silversoul]
    #5443469 - 03/26/06 08:28 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The imprecation to kill apostates comes from a hadith and not the Koran itself. Hadiths are secondary texts to the Koran and relate to the sayings and teachings of Mohammed and his followers. According to todays NYTimes, there is no report of Mohammed executing apostates and there have been few historical examples of such. Whether that is true or not is irrelevant to the fact that there is even one nutlog who wants to kill this poor fool. Fucking assholes. Now, where's my T-shirt with a cartoon of Mohammed with a bomb on his head?


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5443844 - 03/26/06 11:44 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

For all the people who hate America. Stick this one up your ass!!!!


Afghan Court Drops Case Against Christian
By DANIEL COONEY, Associated Press Writer
3 hours ago

KABUL, Afghanistan - An Afghan court on Sunday dismissed a case against a man who converted from Islam to Christianity because of a lack of evidence and he will be released soon, officials said.

The announcement came as U.S.-backed President Hamid Karzai faced mounting foreign pressure to free Abdul Rahman, a move that risked angering Muslim clerics here who have called for him to be killed.

An official closely involved with the case told The Associated Press that it had been returned to the prosecutors for more investigation, but that in the meantime, Rahman would be released.

"The court dismissed today the case against Abdul Rahman for a lack of information and a lot of legal gaps in the case," the official said Sunday, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly on the matter.

"The decision about his release will be taken possibly tomorrow," the official added. "They don't have to keep him in jail while the attorney general is looking into the case."

Abdul Wakil Omeri, a spokesman for the Supreme Court, confirmed that the case had been dismissed because of "problems with the prosecutors' evidence."

He said several of Rahman's family members have testified that the 41-year-old has mental problems. "It is the job of the attorney general's office to decide if he is mentally fit to stand trial," he told AP.

A Western diplomat, also declining to be identified because of the sensitivity of the case, said questions were being raised as to whether Rahman would stay in Afghanistan or go into exile in a foreign country.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said she could not confirm that an Afghan court had dismissed the case and stressed the U.S. needs to respect the sovereignty of Afghanistan, which she called a "young democracy."

"We have our history of conflicts that had to be worked out after a new constitution. And so the Afghans are working on it. But America has stood solidly for religious freedom as a bedrock, the bedrock, of democracy, and we'll see." Rice said Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press."

Asked if American Christian missionaries should be encouraged to go to Afghanistan, Rice said: "I think that Afghans are pleased to get the help that they can get" but added "we need to be respectful of Afghan sovereignty."

Rahman has been prosecuted under Afghanistan's Islamic laws for converting 16 years ago while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He was arrested last month and charged with apostasy.

Muslim clerics had threatened to incite Afghans to kill Rahman if the government freed him. They said he clearly violated Islamic Shariah law by rejecting Islam.

The case against Rahman put Karzai in an awkward position.

While the U.S., Britain and other countries that prop-up his government have demanded the trial be dropped, Karzai has had to be careful not to offend Islamic sensibilities at home and alienate religious conservatives who wield considerable power.

Rahman had been held at a detention facility in central Kabul since his arrest, but he was moved to the notorious Policharki Prison just outside Kabul on Friday after threats were made against him by other inmates, prison warden Gen. Shahmir Amirpur told AP.

Policharki, a high-security prison housing some 2,000 inmates, including about 350 Taliban and al-Qaida militants who were blamed for inciting a riot there late last month that killed six people.

"We are watching him constantly. This is a very sensitive case so he needs high security," he said in an interview in his office in a crumbling building inside the jail.

Rahman is being held in a cell by himself next to the office of a senior prison guard, the warden said. He showed the AP the outside of Rahman's cell door, but refused to allow reporters to speak to him or see him.

He said Rahman had been asking guards for a Bible but that they did not have any to give him.

Rahman, meanwhile, said he was fully aware of his choice and was ready to die for it, according to an interview published Sunday in an Italian newspaper La Repubblica.

"I am serene. I have full awareness of what I have chosen. If I must die, I will die," Abdul Rahman told the Rome daily, responding to questions sent to him via a human rights worker who visited him in prison.

"Somebody, a long time ago, did it for all of us," he added in a clear reference to Jesus.

Rahman also told the Italian newspaper that his family _ including his ex-wife and teenage daughters _ reported him to the authorities three weeks ago.

He said he made his choice to become a Christian "in small steps," after he left Afghanistan 16 years ago. He moved to Pakistan, then Germany. He tried to get a visa in Belgium.

"In Peshawar I worked for a humanitarian organization. They were Catholics," Rahman said. "I started talking to them about religion, I read the Bible, it opened my heart and my mind."


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (03/26/06 11:45 AM)


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Offlineke1n
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5444116 - 03/26/06 02:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
Abdul Rahman, 41, faces a possible death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity 16 years ago. He has been charged with rejecting Islam, a crime under this country's Islamic laws.

why is so much of the muslim world stuck in the middle ages?





It started in the Ottoman Empire. In the begining of the OTtoman EMpire the ISlamic world was the leader in science, math, and military advancements. They had the best schools and the most sophistacated societies. What the OTtoman empire did was took all that and ceneterd it in Turkey, leacingthe rest of the area with nothing. As the years went by they slowly lost value for education, etc. Then the Europeans beat the Ottomans and then carved that part of the world amongst themselves. They sure as hell didn't give a shit about that part of the world so as the eurpoean empires fell they slowly gave independance to those countries. Some of them recovered alright, others didnt.



Quote:

But...but...I thought we "liberated" Afghanistan.




We didn't. We simply fucked up one gang (Taliban) and let other gangs prevail by supplying the other gangs with money/weapons to do the dirty fighting for us.


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Edited by ke1n (03/26/06 02:03 PM)


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Offlineke1n
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5444143 - 03/26/06 02:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
Try telling that to any Southern Baptist minister.

certainly, there are many christians who believe that the bible is the literal word of god. many others do not, but they are still christians. a "muslim" who believes that the qur'an, or the other books (i think there are 5 total) is not the literal word of god however, is not a muslim.

so there are some fundamentalist christians and some non-fundamentalist christians. there is no such division in islam. if you do not believe that the qu'ran is the revealed word of god, and that it must be obeyed, you are not a muslim.




while the quran and bible are regarded differently, there is certainly a difference between moderate/fundamental muslims.

I have lived in an Arab country so I have witnessed both. My father is a Muslim, he is what you call a moderate, he drinks, does other things which alot of muslims would condemn but @ the same time maintains some core islamic values (which are the basis of christianity as well).

In politics, plenty of Arab countries have political battles between moderates and conservatives exactly as they do here with Dems and Republicans.

While many of your points here are viable, you guys are seeing things WAY out of context and have no real grasp on what goes on in the middle east.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5444226 - 03/26/06 02:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Afghan Court Drops Case Against Christian





Translated into English: We dropped the case because if we had executed that guy we would have pissed off the Americans.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5444292 - 03/26/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Now if only the americans would get as worked up about the warlords they handed power over to in Afghanistan, womens rights and rebuilding Afghanistan we might actually get somewhere  :smirk:


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: ke1n]
    #5444293 - 03/26/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

My father is a Muslim, he is what you call a moderate, he drinks, does other things which alot of muslims would condemn

does he believe that muhammad was god's messenger?

if not, he is not a muslim. if yes, he is defying muhammad's admonitions against drinking alcohol, therefore defying god, and therefore is not a muslim either.

"moderate" muslims are not muslims at all. they are people that simply borrow some aspects of islam and reject others. i borrow some aspects of christianity (and other religions) in my own life, but i am not a christian because i do not believe in god or the myth of jesus as the messiah. similarly, a lot of people who identify themselves as muslims might borrow from islam, but they are not actually muslims unless they believe that muhammad was god's messenger and submit to his will.


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5444438 - 03/26/06 03:57 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
My father is a Muslim, he is what you call a moderate, he drinks, does other things which alot of muslims would condemn

does he believe that muhammad was god's messenger?

if not, he is not a muslim.




He does. Mohammed is a messanger, not a God or a commander. The Quran is a source. A source can be interpreted in any number of ways. Hell, for all we know, could be a metaphore for how someone feels when they fail at acheiving an ambition. If the day of judgement is real, I doubt God will judge someone based on their diet.

You, or any other person, has no right to determine wether antoehr is a Muslim or not. It is soley up to that person. Islamic fundamentalism in the 20th-21st century is something pretty new, it spurred from the Islamic revolution in 1979 in Iran. All my Arab/muslim relatives that I speak to don't share any of that extremist anti-american shit.

For most of the 20th century Arabs (I know the ARab world not the rest of the islamic world) looked up to the US. LOVE AMericna movies, food, music. But in the past 10 years especially that has began to invert. The rest of the world shares that same mentality as well. Europeans think Americans are plain morons. In South America an Americans will mainly get welcoming from people who thrive off tourism.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: ke1n]
    #5444493 - 03/26/06 04:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

He does. Mohammed is a messanger, not a God or a commander.

and as a messenger of god, he clearly admonished against consuming alcohol. how can you defy gods messenger and consider yourself a muslim?

You, or any other person, has no right to determine wether antoehr is a Muslim or not. It is soley up to that person.

ok. i don't believe in god, i think muhammad was talking out of his ass, and i love pork, alcohol, and adultery. i don't give alms and i doubt i'll ever visit mecca. i am a muslim. you nor anyone else has a right to determine otherwise.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5444874 - 03/26/06 06:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

im a muslim too


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: DieCommie]
    #5444955 - 03/26/06 07:08 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Its funny....were are all the liberals proclaiming this a success in the defence of religious freedom?


Oh I forgot....Bush cant do anything right and either America.


As a participant in exterminating the Taliban, Afghanistan IS better off. For all of those people who like to proclaim themselves experts while not actually being there is quite humorous


--------------------
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Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
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And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5444961 - 03/26/06 07:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
He does. Mohammed is a messanger, not a God or a commander.

and as a messenger of god, he clearly admonished against consuming alcohol. how can you defy gods messenger and consider yourself a muslim?

You, or any other person, has no right to determine wether antoehr is a Muslim or not. It is soley up to that person.

ok. i don't believe in god, i think muhammad was talking out of his ass, and i love pork, alcohol, and adultery. i don't give alms and i doubt i'll ever visit mecca. i am a muslim. you nor anyone else has a right to determine otherwise.




Alright check this out, you were created with a brain- the ability to make your own choices. So as Islam teaches, nobody can judge you but God.

You obviously have it in your head that you hate Muslims and nothing anybody can tell you/show you will change your mind.

You want to talk about stupidity? Here in the US we have more than enough stupidity to go around for a lifetime. So why waste your time talking about something happening on the other side of the world?


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: ke1n]
    #5445523 - 03/26/06 10:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You obviously have it in your head that you hate Muslims and nothing anybody can tell you/show you will change your mind.

this is what it comes down to?

you can't fault the logic so i must "hate muslims" and be unwilling to change my mind no matter what i'm shown or told? please.

which of the following points are false:

1. muhammad admonished against the consumption of alcohol.
2. to be a muslim, one must believe that muhammad was the messenger of god, that he spoke god's will.
3. to be a muslim, one must believe that god's will must be obeyed.

?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5445600 - 03/26/06 10:59 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Can you be Catholic and use birth control?


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5445651 - 03/26/06 11:15 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Well tell me, is it true?

On your three points. Technically, yeah you are right. Alcohol is a little point in Islam. Islam (deriving from the word Salam, which means peace) is about submission to God. You might say "If you drink against God's will then you arent submitting to God". True, but You cna still be a good person and use selected points of Islam to make you a better person. Another rule is the only God can judge. Some Muslims will label moderates as nonmuslim, well they are trying to speak for God, therefore are defying another rule outlined in the Quran.

I don't think another person has the right to determine wether one is really of a certain faith or not. Quite frankly, its none of their business.

there are alot of stupid Muslims. There are alot of Muslims are pure geniuses as well. What are you trying to prove here?

Quote:

wilshire said:
You obviously have it in your head that you hate Muslims and nothing anybody can tell you/show you will change your mind.

this is what it comes down to?

you can't fault the logic so i must "hate muslims" and be unwilling to change my mind no matter what i'm shown or told? please.

which of the following points are false:

1. muhammad admonished against the consumption of alcohol.
2. to be a muslim, one must believe that muhammad was the messenger of god, that he spoke god's will.
3. to be a muslim, one must believe that god's will must be obeyed.

?




--------------------



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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: ke1n]
    #5445662 - 03/26/06 11:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

About Paradigm's post- same applies ot Islam. Islam was borught to earth like 900 years ago (not quite sure on the dates, but a long time ago). Things change, times change. Pork is illegal in Islam because pigs are filthy and there are known sicknesses specifically deriving from that meat. Nowadays the chances of getting sick off of pork are slim. SO ther eis less emphasis on my part to not eat pork. I don't eat alot of it, but I dont mind if there is a little bit of pork on my pizza.

Some muslims will condemn all this and judge me. Ill tell them to mind their own fucking business.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5446154 - 03/27/06 02:31 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

you can't fault the logic so i must "hate muslims" and be unwilling to change my mind no matter what i'm shown or told? please

What "logic" are you referring to? Can you tell us where and for how long you studied Islam?

Or is this the "logic" that you got during a 2 minute google search and are now blindly convinced that you know more about Islam than muslims do?

Try and be more open minded. It's just possible you could be wrong you know  :rolleyes:


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Alex213]
    #5446363 - 03/27/06 06:11 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

What "logic" are you referring to?

1. muhammad admonished against the consumption of alcohol.
2. to be a muslim, one must believe that muhammad was the messenger of god, that he spoke god's will.
3. to be a muslim, one must believe that god's will must be obeyed.

which of the above statements is false?


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: ke1n]
    #5446367 - 03/27/06 06:13 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You might say "If you drink against God's will then you arent submitting to God". True, but You cna still be a good person and use selected points of Islam to make you a better person

a better person perhaps, but not a muslim,


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5446507 - 03/27/06 07:14 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

muhammad admonished against the consumption of alcohol.


Source?

And taking this approach is as moronic as christians saying God banned homosexuality because a line in the bible can be interpreted in that way.

to be a muslim, one must believe that muhammad was the messenger of god, that he spoke god's will.


Mohammed Husseini, a prominent intellectual in the reform movement, said there are some people in Iran who interpret Islam in the same way as the Taleban.

"They think like Taleban - they think that everything should be forbidden. But in Islam, the first rule is that everything is allowed to all the people. Celebrating is very good."

For over 600 years, Iran's poets have penned odes to the tipple. The 14th Century poet Hafez sought to quench his desire for women and wine.

Hafez's city of Shiraz, after all, is so renowned for its vineyards, it has given its name to one of the world's most popular varieties of wine.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1740617.stm

. to be a muslim, one must believe that god's will must be obeyed.


I can only repeat, where did you study Islam? For how long did you study it?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5446517 - 03/27/06 07:20 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

a better person perhaps, but not a muslim,


Oh please. You are a 22 year old white american boy claiming to know more about Islam than muslims do. Just listen to yourself.


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Alex213]
    #5446655 - 03/27/06 08:37 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

sources for each of the three points:

1. muhammad admonished against the consumption of alcohol.

"O you who believe! Intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), gambling, ‎Al?Ans?b, and Al?Azl?m (arrows for seeking luck or decision) are an abomination of ‎Shait?n's (Satan) handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you ‎may be successful. Shait?n (Satan) wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you ‎with intoxicants (alcoholic drinks) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance ‎of All?h and from As-Sal?t (the prayer). So, will you not then abstain?" Al-Ma'idah 5:90-91‎‎

2. to be a muslim, one must believe that muhammad was the messenger of god, that he spoke god's will.

"There is no god but Allah; Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah", The Shahada

to be a muslim, one must believe that god's will must be obeyed.

"islam" means "submission to god's will". "muslim" means "one who submits to god's will". you can find that pretty much anywhere. wikipedia or google it.

i ask again, which of those three statements are false?

yes or no: muhammad declared alcohol to be an abomination and instructed his followers to abstain.

?

yes or no: a person is not a muslim if he or she rejects the belief that muhammad is god's messenger.

?

yes or no: a person is not a muslim if he or she rejects god.

?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5446762 - 03/27/06 09:47 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

1. muhammad admonished against the consumption of alcohol.

"O you who believe! Intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), gambling, ‎Al?Ans?b, and Al?Azl?m (arrows for seeking luck or decision) are an abomination of ‎Shait?n's (Satan) handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you ‎may be successful. Shait?n (Satan) wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you ‎with intoxicants (alcoholic drinks) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance ‎of All?h and from As-Sal?t (the prayer). So, will you not then abstain?" Al-Ma'idah 5:90-91‎‎



To me, this sounds a lot like the Buddha's teachings about attachment. All these are things which distract people from the path. A mature person is able to differentiate the letter of the law from the spirit of the law.


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5446992 - 03/27/06 10:59 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You seem to be claiming that a Muslim that sins is not a Muslim.

That interpretation is strictly a fundamentalist one, and not one held by the majority of Muslims around the world.


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: psilomonkey]
    #5447036 - 03/27/06 11:09 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

It could be argued that a Muslim who drinks alcohol is merely sinning. However, a "Muslim" who doesn't believe that Muhammad was the messenger of God and that he spoke God's will is not just sinning, he's denying the core tenet of the religion he claims to accept -- the single most important belief which differentiates Islam from other religons. Same deal with one who doesn't believe God's will must be obeyed. That's more than just "sinning".




Phred


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5447055 - 03/27/06 11:16 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Regarding alcohol, I asked a Muslim colleague about Islam and alcohol over a pint last summer down the pub. He said that it was un-Islamic and insulting to god to be drunk, but it was OK to have a drink now and again, as long as it was done in moderation.

Of course they are Muslims that hold more puritanical views, there is no single Muslim church.


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Phred]
    #5447082 - 03/27/06 11:24 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
It could be argued that a Muslim who drinks alcohol is merely sinning. However, a "Muslim" who doesn't believe that Muhammad was the messenger of God and that he spoke God's will is not just sinning, he's denying the core tenet of the religion he claims to accept -- the single most important belief which differentiates Islam from other religons. Same deal with one who doesn't believe God's will must be obeyed. That's more than just "sinning".





So, if you don't follow the Koran to the last detail, you are not a Muslim? If that applies to other religions as well, I would say about 90% of the people I know who call themselves Christians are anything but.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5447141 - 03/27/06 11:48 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

sources for each of the three points:

1. muhammad admonished against the consumption of alcohol.


You are taking one statement and interpreting this to be the final word. Here is more information on what the Quran says about alcohol:

An example of such incoherence and unintelligibility is the Quranic view of strong drinks and wine. The Quran is clearly confused regarding its view of intoxicants as the following passages conclusively demonstrate:

And We have not revealed to you the Book except that you may make clear to them that about which they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe. And Allah has sent down water from the cloud and therewith given life to the earth after its death; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who would listen. And most surely there is a lesson for you in the cattle; We give you to drink of what is in their bellies -- from betwixt the feces and the blood-- pure milk, easy and agreeable to swallow for those who drink. And of the fruits of the palms and the grapes -- you obtain from them intoxication (sakaran) and goodly provision; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who ponder. And your Lord revealed to the bee saying: Make hives in the mountains and in the trees and in what they build: Then eat of all the fruits and walk in the ways of your Lord submissively. There comes forth from within it a beverage of many colours, in which there is healing for men; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who reflect. S. 16:64-69 Shakir

The impression given by this passage is that intoxicants are something good, since the context deals with signs or proofs of God?s care and provisions for mankind. Nothing is said about the negative affects of intoxicants or whether it is impermissible for believers.

O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated (sukara) UNTIL YOU KNOW (WELL) WHAT YOU SAY, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath -- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving. S. 4:43 Shakir

This verse forbids Muslims from coming to prayers while intoxicated. This gives the impression that drinking before praying is permissible, provided that one doesn?t get drunk.

They ask thee concerning wine (al-khamri) and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, AND SOME PROFIT, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider. S. 2:219 A. Yusuf Ali

Here, wine (which falls under the category of intoxicants) is said to be both sinful and profitable, with the sin being greater. Even this passage stops short of explicitly prohibiting the consumption of wine.

Finally:

O ye who believe! Intoxicants (al-khamru) and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are AN ABOMINATION,- OF SATAN?S HANDWORK: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper. Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants (al-khamri) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer: will ye not then abstain? S. 5:90-91 A. Yusuf Ali

This passage says that intoxicants are the handiwork of Satan! Hence, the Quran goes from describing wine as something good to something completely evil.

Now a Muslim may interject here and claim that the verses which permit intoxicants were abrogated. Yet, this is precisely the point. How does a Muslim know that these verses have been abrogated? Where does the Quran explicitly, or even implicitly, state this? Second, how does the Muslim know for certain which verses came first? Does the Quran give the date these "revelations" were allegedly sent down so that we can know which passage came first? After all, one can just as likely claim that S. 16:66-67 was "revealed" last and therefore abrogated S. 2:219 and 5:90-91. How can one know for certain?


http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Contra/incomplete.html

There is no god but Allah; Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah

As I've pointed out the Quran says different things.

yes or no: muhammad declared alcohol to be an abomination and instructed his followers to abstain

You are displaying your ignorance of religion. This is why you need to spend a years studying it rather than doing a 2 minute google search. Religions are usually open to a vast range of interpretations. To think you can reduce everything to "Yes or No" is idiotic. As I've explained you can interpret pretty much whatever you want on this from the Quran.


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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Redstorm]
    #5447354 - 03/27/06 12:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

So, if you don't follow the Koran to the last detail, you are not a Muslim?




How much more clear can I make myself? The central tenet, the core, the foundation, the fundamental defining characteristic of Islam compared to other religions, is the belief that Mohammed was the messenger of God and that he spoke God's will.

We're not talking about every "last detail" here, we're talking about the essential defining characteristic which makes Islam Islam rather than (for example) Catholicism.

How hard is that to understand?





Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Phred]
    #5447967 - 03/27/06 03:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I understand what you're saying. I have one question, though. If a Christian works on the Sabbath, are they a Christian? The word of God did say that you are to rest on the Sabbath.


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Offlinenakors_junk_bag
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Redstorm]
    #5447991 - 03/27/06 03:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

the only time you are not a christian if you claim to eb a christian is if you don't believe Jesus died and was ressurected fro you.

like what he is saying about the core basic most fundamebtal tenet of Islam is to believe he was the messenger of allah.

Christians have to believe that jesus was dead and ressurected. He is the son of god. The similarities are alarming and th violence that stems form the mniscule differences riducluous and it makes me hate god/satan what or whoever.

if you believe those things but don't follow the rules you are still believers but sinners.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Phred]
    #5448031 - 03/27/06 03:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Never mind. I re-read your post and apparently did misinterpret it.


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Offlineke1n
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Redstorm]
    #5448418 - 03/27/06 05:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

As I said, the Quran can be interpreted any number of ways and in the end only God is the judge if one is a Muslim or not. The key idea in ISlam is intentions. Intenitonas are in the head. Unless you can read minds, then you are noone to determine one's faith. So you cna cite as many sources as you like just reread what I just said for a response.


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Everything that is posted, including pictures and text, are a result of fictional storytelling using images found online and/or created using the latest graphics software. I am a fictional writer who likes to explore the internet world.
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OfflineSkeptikos
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: ke1n]
    #5448458 - 03/27/06 05:48 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Buying into ready-made religions is for weak minded individuals who haven't the intellectual fortitude to face the unknown without the pacifiers of dogmas and myths handed down from equally clueless individuals who made things up which (at the time) looked pretty good from their positions of utter ignorance. So sayeth the Lord, amen.


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Sincerely,

Skeptikos


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5448478 - 03/27/06 05:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Everyone's gotta believe something.  I believe I'll have a beer. :beer:


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OfflineSkeptikos
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Silversoul]
    #5448492 - 03/27/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I'll drink to that.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: Alex213]
    #5448611 - 03/27/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

As I've pointed out the Quran says different things.

yeah, about alcohol. where does the qur'an contradict itself in its proclamation that muhammad is god's messenger and that god must be worshipped and obeyed?

Does the Quran give the date these "revelations" were allegedly sent down so that we can know which passage came first? After all, one can just as likely claim that S. 16:66-67 was "revealed" last and therefore abrogated S. 2:219 and 5:90-91. How can one know for certain?

this shows nothing more than that muslims can disobey muhammad's commands when he contradicts himself.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: wilshire]
    #5449188 - 03/27/06 09:48 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

UPDATE:

Afghan convert seeks asylum overseas
March 28, 2006 - 5:49AM


An Afghan man who faced execution for converting from Islam to Christianity has appealed for asylum in another country as protesters demanded his death.

Abdul Rahman's case has been dropped but he now faces real danger outside of prison.

Afghan officials could not immediately confirm that Abdul Rahman had been released after the case against him was dismissed, but a United Nations statement appeared to confirm growing speculation he was being freed.

"Mr Rahman has asked for asylum outside Afghanistan," UN spokesman Adrian Edwards said.

"We expect this will be provided by one of the countries interested in a peaceful solution to this case."

Hundreds of clerics, students and others chanting "Death to Christians!" marched through the northern Afghan Mazar-i-Sharif to protest the court's decision to toss out the case.

"Abdul Rahman must be killed. Islam demands it," said senior Cleric Faiez Mohammed, from the nearby northern city of Kunduz. "The Christian foreigners occupying Afghanistan are attacking our religion."

Several Muslim clerics have threatened to incite Afghans to kill Rahman if he is freed, saying that he is clearly guilty of apostasy and deserves to die.

Rahman was arrested last month after police discovered him with a Bible and put him on trial last week for converting 16 years ago while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He had faced the death penalty under Afghanistan's Islamic laws.

Rahman's case set off an outcry in the United States and other nations that helped oust the hardline Taliban regime in late 2001 and provide aid and military support for Afghan President Hamid Karzai.

US President George W Bush and others insisted Afghanistan protect personal beliefs.

In Canberra, Prime Minister John Howard said international outrage over the case should be taken as a strong signal to the fledgling democracy, which still relies on western forces to maintain stability.

"As far as I am concerned it would just be quite unacceptable to the Australian people for Australian soldiers to be having their lives on the line to defend in any way the practice that involved people being persecuted because of their religious beliefs," he said.

? 2006 AAP


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Offlineke1n
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5449601 - 03/27/06 11:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah there are alot of stupid people who like to represent a religion. Christianity has had more of it's fair share. Hell, so have muslims. Get over your Islam-hating and live your fucking life. People are the same.


--------------------



Everything that is posted, including pictures and text, are a result of fictional storytelling using images found online and/or created using the latest graphics software. I am a fictional writer who likes to explore the internet world.
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: More stupidity from the Middle East [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5449982 - 03/28/06 05:08 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I think Yale should grant him asylum. For academic balance.


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