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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 3 months
The REAL problem with the Middle East
    #1947554 - 09/24/03 10:56 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I'm tired of reading how it's American actions, or Jew/Israel actions,that cause this intense hatred of us by the Arab peoples, so I'm going to tell you wat I think about it. BTW, I was in Iraq and Kuwait (and a few other nations after the "war"), so I have seen a bit of this formyself.

All of the Arabs in the middle east live under dictators. Their isn't one democracy in that region that is run by arabs. These dictators have offical state-religions (such as Wahhabism, an extreme anti-US religion) that dictate hatred towards the West the "TheJews". The average arab in these nations is impoverished (With a GIGANTIC gap inbetween the average poor Arab and the billionaire oil tycoons). Education ends after 6th grade (an educated populace is much more dangerous than an ignorant one). What we are left with is a group of uneducated, impoverished people with dictators stripping them of all their basic rights (freedom of speech, religion, thought, etc). These people are in such horrible conditions their dictators know they want to escape. So the dictators use their state-run media (Which is the only media, no CNN over there) to preach that it's the fault of the Jews, or the Americans, or the Europeans, that the people are in such squalled conditions.

So, bottom line, the dictators use their control of the media and religion to preach how it's the fault of the Jews and Americans that the people live in such horribel conditions. This prevents the subjects from realizing who the REAL enemy is, and rising up against them. This is why the arab nations are so worried about what will happen in Iraq. If we manage to install a government that actually cares about the people (and by cares about, I mean "doesn't gas" them, or "doesn't build palaces while people starve", then the Iraqi's will be better off for not being under an extremist islamic dictator, and perhaps Iraqi's neighbors wil see that. I don't see how anyone cold not crave freedom?


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 3 months
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1948676 - 09/24/03 04:31 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Not one person has commented on this?


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Anonymous

Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1948689 - 09/24/03 04:33 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

i think that's pretty much on-target.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1948690 - 09/24/03 04:34 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I didn't read this post but let me guess...is it the sand-niggers?

Was I right?  :rolleyes:


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1948691 - 09/24/03 04:35 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

old news. we all know that the whole area is seriously fucked up.
does't mean we should go over there and fix it.
they'll just resent us more for meddling.

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Anonymous

Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1948694 - 09/24/03 04:35 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

that is too.

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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 3 months
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: ]
    #1948733 - 09/24/03 04:43 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

alex- Actually ,I didn't use that phrase :-) Have you ever heard of ad homenium(sp)? Just kurious.


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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OfflineSolitude
protector of theKitab Al-Alzif
Registered: 09/02/03
Posts: 215
Last seen: 20 years, 4 months
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1949287 - 09/24/03 07:19 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

so wait for your travels to kuwait and the middle east u gathered all this information? haha thats fuckin pitiful, no shit when u go some place with preconcieved notions, all the things u have been exposed to before (by the media) become "apparent". no shit some arabs hate america. some americans hate america. america is full of whiny bitches just like you "they dont like us they are gonna kill innocent americans". listen be serious, how many of these countries governments actively say "hey you hamaz, hey you al-queda, go bomb the fuck out of the US we will give u all the shit u need." it doesnt werk like that. no government wants to feel the reprocussions of war with the US because yes, and you love to fuckin hear it; you are militarily superior. these people are smarter than you think, for every one iraqi u see cheering the US "liberating" them, there are 5 sitting in there homes thinking to themselves how the ARE being invaded and their lives are all going to change completely, and not all people see this as a good thing, in fact most dont.
Infidel God is completely right, who the fuck is the US to meddle in foreign affairs. its just more nations the can control under the umbrella of the UN. yes the middle east is fuct up but they can fix themselevs they dont need anyone to come and dilute their culture with laws that these people believe to be just.


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More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

"I await this day with no fear ,but the knowlege that that most rewarding and enlightening experiance of life is death." - Chinacat

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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

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Posts: 5,381
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1949561 - 09/24/03 08:40 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Now i could be wrong but im going to guess you are not a pure American if you are one at all. Lets assume you are of european decent. It might be hard to have this disscussion if your parents where cleansed by the nazis. Forgien affairs have existed from the begining of nations. If their is to be trade or communication with others there must also be policy. One must be either be in your out and cannot simply poke their heads in the door whenever they want. The current administration is doing their best currently to reslove forgien matters, although your skewed perception may beleive otherwise.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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OfflineZahid
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1949565 - 09/24/03 08:44 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Most people don't blindly follow their governments, especially in the Middle East where governments genuinely fear the Islamic radicals that desire revolution, alongside the destruction of the 'Zionist Entity'.


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OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1949789 - 09/24/03 09:52 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

alex- Actually ,I didn't use that phrase 




:eek:



 


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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Zahid]
    #1949890 - 09/24/03 10:29 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Most people don't blindly follow their governments

That is a pretty hard concept for people in America to understand and isnt one that the majority of them live by. Hence another reason why Americans cant go magically fix someone's society that they have no possible understanding of. Their ideas have been shaped by American views and their personal life. I've been to the middle east too, but I dont portend to understand all of the struggles and undercurrents of it's people and whole way of life. I cant. You have to live it and be immersed in it to see it clearly. I can say that I wish I could just give them all some exstacy and make them all go to a foam party rave and feel the love.. I can think with my restricted mind of possibilities that might help, but let's face it... Im not some humanitarian genius, better people then I have tried from outside and failed. And to continue to feign superiority and to take away the rights to evolve and grow as people, culture and humanity from other countries is doing nothing but increasing the problems that we as Americans will have to face. Not only are we being attacked from the inside by media, the govt and consumerism run rampant... now people are finally finding their voices and strength against us. In this last week there has been 2 high school shootings and one at a college.. I find it telling that when I was growing up this never happened.. Occassionaly you'd hear about the postal worker, but there is a rising anger in the world and it's course will be run in one way or another. Wether the US kills thousands with bombs and 100s of thousands with sanctions or Saddam kills less then 10K people in 30 years (at an absolutely ridiculous high estimate). As a country we are simply excaberating it, everything is always bigger and better here in america, why not killing and war?

I think about how most of the people I know in America were raised in complete dysfunction. Their parents babysat them with television and ritalin... they spend more time behind the screen of a computer then in the sun.. But they have no concept of how to even deconstruct themselves and put their shit back together in the right way.. much less a foreign culture. I mean, our generation is walking wounded and it's frightening that we are the hope of the world. I fear what will happen when we get to the age that presidency is an option. But dont acknowledge that.. dont acknowledge that our culture is fucked up and acidic and barbaric and militant and being dominated more by fear and control every day and has no business telling anyone about how to develop peace.... try to remove the speck from someone else's eye, that's the ticket.


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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1949915 - 09/24/03 10:38 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Solitude said:
so wait for your travels to kuwait and the middle east u gathered all this information? haha thats fuckin pitiful, no shit when u go some place with preconcieved notions, all the things u have been exposed to before (by the media) become "apparent". no shit some arabs hate america. some americans hate america. america is full of whiny bitches just like you "they dont like us they are gonna kill innocent americans". listen be serious, how many of these countries governments actively say "hey you hamaz, hey you al-queda, go bomb the fuck out of the US we will give u all the shit u need." it doesnt werk like that. no government wants to feel the reprocussions of war with the US because yes, and you love to fuckin hear it; you are militarily superior. these people are smarter than you think, for every one iraqi u see cheering the US "liberating" them, there are 5 sitting in there homes thinking to themselves how the ARE being invaded and their lives are all going to change completely, and not all people see this as a good thing, in fact most dont.
Infidel God is completely right, who the fuck is the US to meddle in foreign affairs. its just more nations the can control under the umbrella of the UN. yes the middle east is fuct up but they can fix themselevs they dont need anyone to come and dilute their culture with laws that these people believe to be just.





Uh, Iraq donated money to Hamas and to the famileis of each suicide bomber. Same with most Arab nations. Your post is so hard to read and full of idiotic remarks I won't reply more.


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1950041 - 09/24/03 11:39 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

alex- Actually ,I didn't use that phrase :-) Have you ever heard of ad homenium(sp)? Just kurious.

You've used it regularly lyso:

Here's your post from the other day for example: Hey gosh, I'd almost feel bad for these sand niggers if they weren't spending their time conspiring to commit 9/11, supporting Osama, and allowing themselves to be led into a dictatorship. Well, no, I wouldn't even feel bad then. Amazing how many stories we get about how bad some sand niggers are being treated,

btw, did I guess right? Is it the sand niggers that are the REAL problem with the middle east?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflinePhred
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1950057 - 09/24/03 11:46 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

PsiloKitten writes:

...or Saddam kills less then 10K people in 30 years (at an absolutely ridiculous high estimate).

Whoa! That caught my eye.

Saddam killed less than 10,000 people in thirty years? That's not what Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International and others are saying, and I doubt either of them could be accurately classified as stooges for the "Bush agenda".

Leaving aside the hundreds of thousands dead in the wars with Iran and Kuwait, and the 5,000 dead in gassings (which to be fair some are now saying were carried out by Iran) within Iraq's own borders, the lowest number I recall seeing from Human Rights Watch et al regarding civilian Iraqi deaths attributable to Hussein's rule was an estimated 290,000, and that was a year before the war. With the information coming out of Iraq now, these agencies are revising their numbers drastically upwards.

Hard to know who to believe.

pinky


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1950116 - 09/25/03 12:17 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Those people over there seem to routinely scream "Death to America"
and stuff like that. Do we really want them electing their own
leaders??

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1950203 - 09/25/03 01:00 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Is killing civilians who democratically chose a leader that they knew would kill Americans better than killing civilians that did not have a chance to choose?


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineZahid
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1950204 - 09/25/03 01:00 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Hey gosh, I'd almost feel bad for these sand niggers if they weren't spending their time conspiring to commit 9/11...




I don't care for that term, you ignorant asshole.


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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1950943 - 09/25/03 12:00 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Those people over there seem to routinely scream "Death to America"
and stuff like that. Do we really want them electing their own
leaders??




Thats a very good point. We would have a problem putting a democratic election in place in these places, because htey still have the brainwashed, anti-West/Jew/Israel/Zionist/Christian beliefs. Maybe a few more generations will get things fixed ove rthere


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Anonymous

Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1950945 - 09/25/03 12:01 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

htey still have the brainwashed, anti-West/Jew/Israel/Zionist/Christian beliefs.

you might be surprised how many don't. the fundamentalist types may be the most vocal, but they aren't the most numerous.

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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1950946 - 09/25/03 12:01 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

zahid - I'm really not sorry at all. Once they act more human, i'll recognize them as humans, until they, they are unevolved beasts


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Anonymous

Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1950956 - 09/25/03 12:04 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

that might be reasonable if all middle-easterners were terrorists.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1951103 - 09/25/03 12:44 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Thats a very good point. We would have a problem putting a democratic election in place in these places, because htey still have the brainwashed, anti-West...

So they are only allowed "democracy" that elects people George Bush likes?

That's one shitty idea of "democracy" man.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1951130 - 09/25/03 12:58 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Alex123 - Hitler was elected, would you like to have left him in power?


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Anonymous

Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1951135 - 09/25/03 01:02 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

hitler was not democratically elected. this is a surprisingly common myth.

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InvisibleAutonomous
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Registered: 05/10/02
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: ]
    #1951152 - 09/25/03 01:13 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Not directly, but didn't Nazis democratically obtain 230 seats in the Reichstag on July 31, 1932, thereby setting the stage for Hitler's chance to become Chancellor?


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Autonomous]
    #1951258 - 09/25/03 01:56 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)



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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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OfflineSolitude
protector of theKitab Al-Alzif
Registered: 09/02/03
Posts: 215
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: ]
    #1951763 - 09/25/03 04:39 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

how do u kno that iraq and other islamic nations give money to hamas? cuz the US sez so? you are so goddam ignorant (or stupid not quite sure yet) it amazes me. it seems like an arab impregnated ur mother and u have a grudge. as for D33p, thanx for the civilized response.
but as i stated in another thread, alot of ppl follow your logic, they feel because of the holocost these people deserve something, i dont agree with you because i feel that every race has had hardships and we should just hand shit out, because we feel sorry for them. and if they needed a homeland, why not germany? because "god" promised them that land? well can i go to ur house and say god promised me this house so its mine get out? you make a good point and the holocuast wasnt a good time for those people but this isnt a good time for my arab brethern either, they are fighting for land they the israelis had no claim over before the end of WWII, i see both sides of the arguement and i see why people can say the bombings and shit are wrong, but the arabs have been shafted plenty already, and i too would retaliate anyway possible, living more like animals then we ever would under any dictator. ive never been to palestine but as the land of my ancestors i see this as extremely unjust. take a look from the other side of the spectrum. see why the bombings go down, dont just feed into the "jewish plight" the jews own the media, and its basically yellow journalism what u see on TV and read in the news. i kno people that have come from there not too long ago and these people feel as though they have no soul here, but no longer wish to live under a "silent tyrant" (the words of one of my palestinian friends). i understand your sympathy for the israelis. they do need a place to call home, but so do we. and 1/8 of what was 100% ours just isnt werkin.
and please dont listen to lysergic's bullshit this guy is just starting threads talkin about shit he knows nothig about the "real" problem with the middle east is ppl like you who think they know the problem but can only experience it from a far, i kno these people, most of them dont hate america for being rich and shit they dont hate america period, they are indifferent because they dont kno why the US must
1)meddle in arab affairs
and when they meddle they 2)side so heavily with israelis


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More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

"I await this day with no fear ,but the knowlege that that most rewarding and enlightening experiance of life is death." - Chinacat

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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Autonomous]
    #1952299 - 09/25/03 07:38 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah,the Nazi's did this by partially by intimidating people by force,which is well known historically.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

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OfflineZahid
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1952980 - 09/25/03 11:37 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

lysergic said:
zahid - I'm really not sorry at all. Once they act more human, i'll recognize them as humans, until they, they are unevolved beasts




Like all bigots, racists, fascists, et cet era., they will always generalize an entire group of people - with no remorse. Sick.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: monoamine]
    #1953246 - 09/26/03 01:44 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah,the Nazi's did this by partially by intimidating people by force,which is well known historically.



Yup, the intimidation tactics exaggerated the Nazi vote, and the effect is contained in the numbers found by this demographic study:

During the year of the rapid party growth and electoral surge, 1932, the turnout of NSDAP voters exceeded the national average by 8.5% and 10%, significantly boosting the party fortunes.

But technicalities aside, this doesn't change the fact that Hitler came to power through what was basically a democratic process. There are many countries that are governed by the largest party in parliament even though that party doesn't always represent an absolute majority of the voters. Sometimes it leads to a paralyzed government, which is a good thing because it's a form of "harm reduction". But at other times it can lead to minorities forcing their decisions upon the majority.

And regardless of whether a party has 49, 51 or 99 percent of the votes, democracy fails when too many voters embrace a totalitarian party. The Nazi Party had only about 37% of the Reichstag seats in the july 1932 elections. But 52% of the seats were held by totalitarian parties (nazis and communists). There is not much point in pretending to have a democratic system when the political situation has deteriorated that much. The result can only be an elected totalitarian government, an armed coup (by the military or others), civil war, or intervention from a foreign country.

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Offlined33p
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: monoamine]
    #1954081 - 09/26/03 11:06 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Well saddam also was democratically ellected but of course the voters voted in their own blood literaly and were watched by armed guards.

Aww the wonders of democracy at work


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Zahid]
    #1954083 - 09/26/03 11:08 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
Like all bigots, racists, fascists, et cet era., they will always generalize an entire group of people - with no remorse. Sick.




This coming from someone who has in the past generalized americans and more commonly white americans.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: d33p]
    #1954175 - 09/26/03 11:44 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

^^^You sure you're not thinking of Malachi?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: silversoul7]
    #1954424 - 09/26/03 01:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Well mala does it all the time, but zahid has done this before specially when argueing about osama and 9/11


--------------------
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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: d33p]
    #1954617 - 09/26/03 02:11 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

To be honest I can't remember Zahid using bullshit like sand-niggers.

(I'd start cringing now d3..)


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Offlined33p
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1955246 - 09/26/03 05:16 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

he never said something like cracker when discribing a white american.

If you could read alex i said he grouped all white americans into one stereotype. And wow Alex why do hold on to 1 thing a person said and then strangle it to death. And my name is deep just with 3s not d3


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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Anonymous

Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1955311 - 09/26/03 05:33 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

i think the real problem with the middle east is militant islamic fundamentalism. this combined with a general lack of democracy and limited government are the two biggest problems with the mideast.

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OfflineZahid
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: d33p]
    #1955456 - 09/26/03 06:21 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Excuse me, but when did I ever stereotype Americans [LET ALONE White Americans]? HELLO, I'm WHITE - And when did I sympathize with Osama bin Laden? Not once since becoming a Muslim did I ever find myself attracted to the mindless fanaticism of Islamists and Jihadists. What is it, that I am a Muslim - and opposed to Bush's quasi-neofascist administration give the impression to you that I support such heinous bloodshed in the name of all that is Holy and Good? What an outrage. The current book that I am reading right now (and happen to enjoy, alot) is The Trouble With Islam by Irshad Manji, a feminist, lesbian Muslim woman from Canada. And you're accusing me of 'arguing about Osama'? :wtf:

Moreso, the term 'sand nigger' is the stupidest phrase since 'nigger'. Only an imbecile, a fucking moron would recite such garbage anywhere, let alone a forum that is home to many 'enlightened' ones. A big thumbs down to those who hold racist, bigoted tendencies towards Arabs and Muslims, justifying it to themselves that it's not the same as 'conventional racism' and thus OK and accepted. It's fools like lysergic that is wrong with civilized society.


--------------------

Edited by Zahid (09/26/03 06:31 PM)

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1956704 - 09/27/03 06:11 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

lysergic said:
zahid - I'm really not sorry at all. Once they act more human, i'll recognize them as humans, until they, they are unevolved beasts




If you deny others their humanity, you deserve to be denied your own. Or hasn't it occurred to you that you're essentially borrowing Hitler's own rhetoric?

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InvisibleEdame
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Zahid]
    #1956750 - 09/27/03 07:53 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Well said.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1957367 - 09/27/03 02:14 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

----------------------------------------------------------------------lysergic said:
zahid - I'm really not sorry at all. Once they act more human, i'll recognize them as humans, until they, they are unevolved beasts


----------------------------------------------------------------------

If you deny others their humanity, you deserve to be denied your own.


Not every Muslim is a terrorist. But, there is a very disconcerting
thing that is occurring around this world. Everywhere where there
is an insurrection, 95% of the time it is caused by Muslim
fundamentalists. Often they seem to engage in horrific tactics(such
as the killing of innocent civilians, torture, barbaric murders,
etc...). If Islam is a peaceful religion, why are there
millions of Muslims around the world who think that these vicious
acts of violence against non-combatants are justified?

All religions have their extremists. But, Muslim extremists seem
to outnumber all other extremists by a vast margin.

I think every one of these people should be tracked down
and systematically executed so that their fetid existences come
to an end.



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1957382 - 09/27/03 02:19 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Islam is still relatively young as a religion. It's basically at the point right now that Christianity was at during the Middle Ages. I think if we give it time, it'll go from terrorist attacks to just annoying televangelists asking for money.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: silversoul7]
    #1957406 - 09/27/03 02:27 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

the muslim areas of the world were at one time centers of much cultural and techological development.

that was when islam was much younger than it is now.

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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: silversoul7]
    #1957408 - 09/27/03 02:28 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I think if we give it time, it'll go from terrorist attacks to just annoying televangelists asking for money.



Great. That means if we leave them alone to kill and maim at will, eventually they'll get over it and we can all live happily ever after.

I'm sure those who are killed by them will be glad to know it'll all work out in the end.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinedomite
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1958423 - 09/27/03 10:03 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"the killing of innocent civilians"
your right, and seeing as how this never happens when any other countries or sub fedral orginizations wage war or commit acts of terror, its a brilliant argument as to why sand niggers are evil...

"Great. That means if we leave them alone to kill and maim at will, eventually they'll get over it and we can all live happily ever after."

it was a joke.

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OfflineZahid
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1958455 - 09/27/03 10:16 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

I think if we give it time, it'll go from terrorist attacks to just annoying televangelists asking for money.



Great. That means if we leave them alone to kill and maim at will, eventually they'll get over it and we can all live happily ever after.

I'm sure those who are killed by them will be glad to know it'll all work out in the end.




What do you mean by "them"?

What do you suggest then? Bomb Mecca?


--------------------

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1958980 - 09/28/03 02:55 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Not every Muslim is a terrorist. But, there is a very disconcerting
thing that is occurring around this world. Everywhere where there
is an insurrection, 95% of the time it is caused by Muslim
fundamentalists.


Please provide sources instead of pulling bogus statistics out of your ass.

Often they seem to engage in horrific tactics(such
as the killing of innocent civilians, torture, barbaric murders,
etc...).


Ever heard of My Lai?

If Islam is a peaceful religion, why are there
millions of Muslims around the world who think that these vicious
acts of violence against non-combatants are justified?


If America is such a peaceful country, why are there millions of Americans who unthinkingly support every single military action the United States takes?

Islamic fundamentalists who use violence to support their ideology are scum. American nationalists who support the use of state violence to support THEIR ideologies are also scum. I don't take sides in these matters. Anybody who supports the use of violence to support their ideologies is scum.

All religions have their extremists. But, Muslim extremists seem
to outnumber all other extremists by a vast margin.


Patriotism/nationalism is also a religion, and has plenty of extremist adherents all over the world. They are also scum.

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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1959005 - 09/28/03 03:15 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, dogmatic securalism is just as bad as fundalmentalist religion.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Zahid]
    #1959150 - 09/28/03 06:08 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

What do you mean by "them"?



Well if you come down off your high horse and re-read the post I responded to, I bet you'll be able to answer that all by yourself.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1959282 - 09/28/03 09:24 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

So you can say "That's not what I meant by them, please state where i defined the meaning of them, I bet you can't".

Why not explain precisely what you mean for once?


--------------------
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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1959294 - 09/28/03 09:39 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

why must there be democracy? thats such a big question in my mind, why cant people run their countries the way they want to? it jus makes no sense.


--------------------
More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: monoamine]
    #1959365 - 09/28/03 10:24 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah, dogmatic securalism is just as bad as fundalmentalist religion.



Really? Then why are there so many more Islamic terrorists than there are terrorists who kill in the name of Dogmatic Secularism?

Islam has a couple of built-in ideological problems. They won't go away just because we can identify various traces of dogmatism in other ideologies.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1959543 - 09/28/03 11:39 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
So you can say "That's not what I meant by them, please state where i defined the meaning of them, I bet you can't".

Why not explain precisely what you mean for once? 



Good luck with that. :rolleyes:


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: silversoul7]
    #1959581 - 09/28/03 12:04 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

agreed, some people just dodge, these things so as not to look as tho they have sed something stupid, own up to ur shit like a man.


--------------------
More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1959772 - 09/28/03 01:44 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Solitude asks:

why must there be democracy? thats such a big question in my mind, why cant people run their countries the way they want to? it jus makes no sense.

Who are you defining as "people"? Hussein ran "his" country the way he wanted. Castro runs "his" country the way he wants to.

pinky


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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1959882 - 09/28/03 02:31 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Why not explain precisely what you mean for once?



Sorry Alpo. I figured you were smart enough to get this one without help.




silversoul7 said

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think if we give it time, it'll go from terrorist attacks to just annoying televangelists asking for money.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Great. That means if we leave them alone to kill and maim at will, eventually they'll get over it and we can all live happily ever after.

I'm sure those who are killed by them will be glad to know it'll all work out in the end.




Clear enough for you now?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1959974 - 09/28/03 03:08 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

castro is on lock, the US could care less about him but what i meant is that if ur not under the thumb the US wants you there. and all people can think to say is "well they dont have a democracy so its ok".


--------------------
More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

"I await this day with no fear ,but the knowlege that that most rewarding and enlightening experiance of life is death." - Chinacat

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1960014 - 09/28/03 03:20 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Stop misoverestimating.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1960019 - 09/28/03 03:23 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Great. That means if we leave them alone to kill and maim at will, eventually they'll get over it and we can all live happily ever after.

I'm sure those who are killed by them will be glad to know it'll all work out in the end.



Sorry.  I forgot to include this :smirk: to indicate sarcasm.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1960037 - 09/28/03 03:32 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)


Please provide sources instead of pulling bogus statistics out of your ass.


Admittedly, I pulled the 95% out of my ass. However, the
fundamentalist Muslim insurrections of this world are numerous
(Middle East, Chechnya, Indonesia, Phillipines), and you must
admit that they commit horrific acts. These are not people
attacking military targets. They seem to consistently attack
INNOCENT CIVILIANS.


Ever heard of My Lai?


How biased of you. Bring up one occurrence in one war that
was brought about by several very stupid men in the U.S. military.
Yet you conveniently ignore the PERPETUAL attacks of Muslim
fundamentalists.

Yes, I've heard of My Lai. Yes, I think it was horrible. Yes,
I think the men responible should have been severely punished.

Can I ask you a question? Have you ever heard of September 11th?
Have you heard of the Palestinian who just snuck into a
settlement and INTENTIONALLY killed a person and their infant child?
Have you heard of the countless Muslim suicide bombers who try
to kill and maim women and children outside of cafes?

There is a difference between the average American and the
average Muslim fundamentalist. When a tragedy occurs, no matter
who is the victim, we grieve. When a tragedy occurs that happens
to the "enemies" of Muslims, they laugh and cheer.

These people are sick. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.


If America is such a peaceful country, why are there millions of Americans who unthinkingly support every single military action the United States takes?


Not all Americans are idiot patriots who blindly follow whatever
government officials tell them. To be honest, I don't believe
Iraq has any WMD's. We invaded that country for political reasons
in my opinion. I think those political reasons were justified,
and in the long run, it will end up saving lives on both sides(much
like it could be argued that the atomic bomb drop on Japan probably
saved lives). But, I still worry that we have gotten ourselves into
one hell of a mess.


Patriotism/nationalism is also a religion, and has plenty of extremist adherents all over the world. They are also scum.


How many Americans do you see advocating and celebrating the killings
of innocent civilians? Do you see the streets filled with
Americans laughing and cheering when a Palestinian dies? When
anybody dies?



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1960086 - 09/28/03 03:43 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)


why must there be democracy? thats such a big question in my mind, why cant people run their countries the way they want to? it jus makes no sense.


That's what democracy is. The ability of the citizens of a
country to choose their leaders. Not one Arab country
has it. They are all ruled by monarchies, religious wackos,
or two-bit dictators.

Admittedly, some of this could be blamed on the U.S. We need Saudi
Arabia's oil, so we give the Saudi royal family tons of money and
weapons in order for them to stay in power. The only reason we give
a shit about them staying in power, is because they provide a
stable government, even if it is repressive. With a stable
government sitting atop all of that oil, we can be assured of
getting a non-interrupted supply. If there was an uprising
or coup in Saudi Arabia, our oil supplies would be threatened.

But, if we didn't prop up the Saudi royal family, and somebody
were to replace them, I shudder to think who it would be. What would
you rather have: a repressive but stable monarchy, or a
power-hungry, chaotic, and violent dictator or religious wacko? The
Middle East currently does not have the tools to bring about
democracy, so we must deal with what we can.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1960091 - 09/28/03 03:44 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Only in redneck bars.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1961594 - 09/28/03 11:54 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Admittedly, I pulled the 95% out of my ass. However, the
fundamentalist Muslim insurrections of this world are numerous
(Middle East, Chechnya, Indonesia, Phillipines), and you must
admit that they commit horrific acts. These are not people
attacking military targets. They seem to consistently attack
INNOCENT CIVILIANS.


I am not defending fundamentalist Muslims. I am merely challenging your self-serving, patriotic belief that Americans never intentionally cause harm, or that we cause less harm than other nations. Do you know how many INNOCENT CIVILIANS died in this last Iraqi crusade? Better yet, do you know how many INNOCENT CIVILIANS died during the Vietnam War, a war that was fought over ideology rather than immediate defense concerns? Over two million Vietnamese died in that war, over a million of them non-combatants. I'd like you to prove to me that Islamic fundamentalists have killed over a million people. Just try it. I dare you.

How biased of you. Bring up one occurrence in one war that
was brought about by several very stupid men in the U.S. military.
Yet you conveniently ignore the PERPETUAL attacks of Muslim
fundamentalists.


How biased of ME? I do not ignore the attacks of Muslim fundamentalists. I told you already I think they're scum. Try reading more carefully. If anybody is ignoring anything, it is you: you are ignoring America's PERPETUAL propensity to employ enormous military power for political and economic gain as opposed to pure defense. Many, many innocent people die as a result.

Can I ask you a question? Have you ever heard of September 11th?
Have you heard of the Palestinian who just snuck into a
settlement and INTENTIONALLY killed a person and their infant child?
Have you heard of the countless Muslim suicide bombers who try
to kill and maim women and children outside of cafes?


Don't try to lecture me about September 11th, you redneck. I live in Manhattan, and I was there that day, but I know for a fact you were nowhere near New York City when the towers fell. I can tell you for a fact that those of us who live in the prime terrorist target city expressed FAR less support for this last war than the hicks in the boonies who have nothing to gain or lose either way. And yes, I've heard about all of the atrocities you are mentioning. I also know that WHITE, PROTESTANT Germans did infinitely worse things some sixty years ago. I also know that there are plenty of Americans who commit just as horrible crimes against one another in our own country. Ever heard of Timothy McVeigh? People are just shitty all over, and Americans are no exception. Your patriotism blinds you to that fact. Simple as that.

There is a difference between the average American and the
average Muslim fundamentalist. When a tragedy occurs, no matter
who is the victim, we grieve. When a tragedy occurs that happens
to the "enemies" of Muslims, they laugh and cheer.


You've never actually lived within a Muslim community, and your entire understanding of the culture comes from CNN, etc. Maybe you have a few Muslim "friends" or some such nonsense, but that is the extent of it. Don't try to claim otherwise: I've seen your ilk a thousand times.

Not all Americans are idiot patriots who blindly follow whatever
government officials tell them. To be honest, I don't believe
Iraq has any WMD's. We invaded that country for political reasons
in my opinion. I think those political reasons were justified,
and in the long run, it will end up saving lives on both sides(much
like it could be argued that the atomic bomb drop on Japan probably
saved lives). But, I still worry that we have gotten ourselves into
one hell of a mess.


You think those political reasons were justified? Well whoop-dee-do! Soldiers dying at the rate of one a day, the treasury being eptied at the rate of more than one billion dollars a day, but you think it's "justified." If you or your child was out there getting bombed your opinion might count for shit, but it doesn't. Ah, yes, the old canard that STARTING wars and employing weapons of mass destruction "saves more lives in the long run." None of those arguments have ever been proven, and they become handy excuses for just about any kind of atrocity.

How many Americans do you see advocating and celebrating the killings
of innocent civilians? Do you see the streets filled with
Americans laughing and cheering when a Palestinian dies? When
anybody dies?


Americans were laughing and cheering when the A-bombs were dropped on Japan. They were happy to see their enemy defeated. I've seen victims and relatives of victims celebrate when their victimizers were put to the electric chair. You simply can't get through to the fact that Americans are nothing special. No better, no worse.

This idea that one's clan/race/religion/nation/etc. is special or exceptional or better or morally superior or whatever has been the primary scourge of the human intellect and peace among humans for the duration of human history. Once you adopt it, you enter into the same intellectual and moral universe as those religious fundamentalists, one in which you blind yourself to the faults of your own community and exaggerate the failings of, and then ultimately DEHUMANIZE, other communities. It's the same fundamental premise, and it is ALWAYS wrong. The root of all evil. Wake up.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1961596 - 09/28/03 11:54 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

When a tragedy occurs that happens to the "enemies" of Muslims, they laugh and cheer

Strange, I'm sure I saw Yasser Arafat giving blood to help the people of New York after Sep 11.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineZahid
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1961610 - 09/29/03 12:01 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Not to mention all the candle light vigils held by American, Canadian, and British Muslims.

I remember right after the attacks on television they showed an elder Saudi man repeatedly saying, "This is not Islam!"


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1961611 - 09/29/03 12:02 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I remember that. I wonder if that blood was actually used, or if it went to a lab somewhere to be studied and have every known medical test done on it.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1961867 - 09/29/03 03:33 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
When a tragedy occurs that happens to the "enemies" of Muslims, they laugh and cheer

Strange, I'm sure I saw Yasser Arafat giving blood to help the people of New York after Sep 11.



Of course there is no chance at all he did it as a publicity stunt.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1961921 - 09/29/03 04:18 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I bet Bush knows Arafat's cholesterol level now.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1962343 - 09/29/03 09:23 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

He is the face of the Palestinian leadership. He has to look
moderate to the world in order to make a good impression.

While he gave blood, his Palestinian "brothers" ran out into the
streets and exuberantly celebrated.

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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1962361 - 09/29/03 09:36 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Strange, I'm sure I saw Yasser Arafat giving blood to help the people of New York after Sep 11.



Yup, and Hitler was anti-smoking and anti-pollution and lovingly patted little Hitler Youths on the cheek when being filmed. Arafat's a sweetheart just like 'ol Adolph.

On a side note, I've got a line on some wonderful investment opportunities on Florida swamp land, are you interested?


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1962424 - 09/29/03 10:09 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

While he gave blood

Sounds a little hard to win doesn't it randall. He runs out into the street and dances and you think he's bad, and he gives blood and you think he's bad.

Sounds like he's caught between a rock and a hard place doesn't it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1962461 - 09/29/03 10:36 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)


I am not defending fundamentalist Muslims.

Good. Because of their despicable actions, they do not deserve
to be defended; or to live for that matter.


I am merely challenging your self-serving, patriotic belief that
Americans never intentionally cause harm, or that we cause less harm
than other nations.

Did I ever say America never causes harm to any other nation or
people? Where in my message did I say that? Where in my
message did I insist that I am a "super-patriot"? If you read one
of my messages above, you will see where I openly criticize some
of America's foreign policy.


Do you know how many INNOCENT CIVILIANS died in this last Iraqi
crusade?

I'd like you to prove to me that Islamic fundamentalists have killed
over a million people. Just try it. I dare you.

Yes, it is true that because of the actions of America, innocent
people have died. There is a big difference though. The United
States does not make it a policy to target innocent civilians
(and don't bring up the a-bomb attacks on Japan...that was a different
scenario). When we kill innocent civilians, we do not do it
intentionally. Muslim terrorists do. If Muslim terrorists targeted
military targets only, I would have much more respect for them.


Better yet, do you know how many INNOCENT CIVILIANS died during the
Vietnam War, a war that was fought over ideology rather than
immediate defense concerns?


You're right. We should have let the communists, with all of their
imperialistic aims, run wild all over the world and do whatever
they wanted. We should not have raised a hand to stop them. We
should have stood idly by while they implemented their flawed economic
and ideological ideas upon the entire world. We should have let them
enslave the entire world. (Sarcasm)


America's PERPETUAL propensity to employ enormous military power for
political and economic gain as opposed to pure defense. Many, many
innocent people die as a result.

In this we are in agreement. America should withdraw all troops
on foreign soil and focus on defending our borders. The world will
probably be worse off as a result, but we will save a lot of money,
and nobody will have a reason to hate us.


Don't try to lecture me about September 11th, you redneck.

Well, Yeeeeeee-haaaaaawwwww! you city-clicker. Us simple folks ain't
got no brains to think through complicated matters like these.
(Sarcasm)


I know for a fact you were nowhere near New York City when the towers
fell.

Wow, not only are you a master debater, but you are psychic too.
By using your magic powers, you seem to be able to determine my
approximate location. (Sarcasm...in case you didn't pick up on that)


I also know that WHITE, PROTESTANT Germans did infinitely worse
things some sixty years ago.

Classic liberal behavior. Attempt to shift the blame off of the
perceived "underdog"(muslims) and do everything in your power to
demonize the "advantaged" group(white people).

Yes, there is no doubt that those "White Protestant Germans"
did some atrocious things. And, if I was alive back then,
I would have railed against them. But, in todays world, the
people committing the most atrocious acts on a regular basis
are Muslim extremists. So, I will rail against them.


I also know that there are plenty of Americans who commit just as
horrible crimes against one another in our own country. Ever heard of
Timothy McVeigh?


You compare the anomaly of one man acting alone to the actions of
thousands...maybe even millions of Muslim extremists? I don't
know if you are going to be able to admit the following fact: Muslim
extremism is rampant, intolerant, world-wide, and violent.


People are just shitty all over, and Americans are no exception. Your
patriotism blinds you to that fact.

I am not blinded by anything. Maybe you are blinded by liberalism.


You've never actually lived within a Muslim community, and your
entire understanding of the culture comes from CNN, etc.

Wow...again you display your amazing psychic power and jump to idiotic
conclusions that you have no proof of. My understanding of other
cultures does not depend on CNN. It depends on a myriad of sources.


Don't try to claim otherwise: I've seen your ilk a thousand times.

And, I've seen your ilk a thousand times. The self-hating
liberal who despises his country, his culture, and his origins.
It is perfectly acceptable and even necessary for an American to
question his government's actions. But, I can sense a "guilty white
liberal" bent oozing out of your pores. If you disagree with how
things are, then do something about it.


You think those political reasons were justified?


If it helps establish democracy in the Middle East, puts the fear
of "Allah" into Muslim terrorists, and brings peace and security to
that volatile area, then yes it is justified. I only hope it works
out.


Americans were laughing and cheering when the A-bombs were dropped on
Japan.


Well, maybe they were happy because instead of having to engage in
an invasion where perhaps a million American troops, Japanese troops,
and Japanese civilians would be killed, only 50,000 Japanese
civilians were killed. I would have done things differently if
I were in charge. I would have dropped the bomb on a remote area as
a warning to the Japanese. A Muslim terrorist would have dropped
one on every city and laughed the entire time.


You simply can't get through to the fact that Americans are nothing
special. No better, no worse.

We aren't special. But, neither are we monsters.


This idea that one's clan/race/religion/nation/etc. is special or
exceptional or better or morally superior or whatever has been the
primary scourge of the human intellect and peace among humans for the
duration of human history.

Once you adopt it, you enter into the same intellectual and moral
universe as those religious fundamentalists, one in which you blind
yourself to the faults of your own community and exaggerate the
failings of, and then ultimately DEHUMANIZE, other communities. It's
the same fundamental premise, and it is ALWAYS wrong. The root of all
evil.



Finally, something you say rings of the absolute truth.



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1962465 - 09/29/03 10:39 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)


Sounds a little hard to win doesn't it randall. He runs out into the
street and dances and you think he's bad, and he gives blood and you
think he's bad.


Maybe Arafat really was concerned and horrified about September 11th.
Too bad a lot of his fellow Palestinians were not.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1962779 - 09/29/03 01:09 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I think the vast majority of palestinians would have been horrified by sep 11.


--------------------
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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1963114 - 09/29/03 03:09 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"You're right. We should have let the communists, with all of their
imperialistic aims, run wild all over the world and do whatever
they wanted. We should not have raised a hand to stop them. We
should have stood idly by while they implemented their flawed economic
and ideological ideas upon the entire world. We should have let them
enslave the entire world."




well did you ever hear......MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS

thoughout latin america countries that even LEANED that way, capitalist countries with a little bit of socialism

were attacked , either by america or funded by america

unless the countrys people are unhappy, mind your own fucking business

and dont start calling me a communist cause I am NOT

but we dont have real capitalism now these days either
Adam smith would be pissed!



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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1964321 - 09/29/03 10:10 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Good. Because of their despicable actions, they do not deserve
to be defended; or to live for that matter.


RandalFlagg, judge, jury, and executioner of the world!

Are you saying that terrorists do not deserve to live, or that all fundamentalists, whether violent or not, deserve to die?

Do you not see that by presuming to judge who should live and who die, you have adopted the terrorist mindset yourself? Like you, terrorists do not stop to consider that their reasoning might be wrong. Like you, they believe that they have it on the highest evidence that the people they think should die really deserve to. You're far closer to the terrorists than someone who categorically refuses to pass such sentence is to either one of you. Try taking a long, hard look in the mirror.

Did I ever say America never causes harm to any other nation or
people? Where in my message did I say that? Where in my
message did I insist that I am a "super-patriot"? If you read one
of my messages above, you will see where I openly criticize some
of America's foreign policy.


Your previous posts make clear that you believe, without foundation, that Americans never intentionally cause harm. And while you may criticize some American foreign policy (which was that, by the way?) you obviously believe that Americans are intrinsicially good people while others, such as the Palestinians, are intrinsically not. This belief apparently stems from the fact that you saw some extremely stupid and misguided Palestinians celebrating the fact that the country (the US) which props up their oppressors (Israel) with money and weapons tasted the tragedy, injustice, and powerlessness that they've been living with for decades. Those common people who celebrated deserve the strongest rebuke for their lack of basic human decency, but they do no deserve to DIE, any more than the common Americans who celebrated victory over Japan deserve to die. Maybe if you stopped passing these hysterical death sentences on people you neither know nor understand, I would treat you like something other than a misguided lunatic.

Yes, it is true that because of the actions of America, innocent
people have died. There is a big difference though. The United
States does not make it a policy to target innocent civilians
(and don't bring up the a-bomb attacks on Japan...that was a different
scenario). When we kill innocent civilians, we do not do it
intentionally. Muslim terrorists do. If Muslim terrorists targeted
military targets only, I would have much more respect for them.


In the past, Western countries had a policy of not attacking civilian populations. That changed with World War II. At that time, the combatants started bombing cities and other civilian centers and it became all-out, no-holds-barred type of combat. The United States DID make it a policy to target innocent civilians. Everytime a B-17 dropped a bomb on a city instead of, say, a military airfield or munitions factory, it was targeting CIVILIANS. The firebombing of Dresden targeted civilians, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki targeted civilians. And NO, those were NOT a different scenario. Sorry, you cannot apply a double standard towards the killing of civilians. Entire villages in Vietnam were burned to the ground or napalmed on the "suspicion" that there was "VC activity" there. THAT was targeting civilians.

You're right. We should have let the communists, with all of their
imperialistic aims, run wild all over the world and do whatever
they wanted. We should not have raised a hand to stop them. We
should have stood idly by while they implemented their flawed economic
and ideological ideas upon the entire world. We should have let them
enslave the entire world. (Sarcasm)


Sorry to break this to you, but the communists WON the Vietnam War. I know it must come as kind of a shock to learn that the "domino effect theory" which you just presented, and which was the theoretical underpinning of the Vietnam War, was discredited long ago. No direct military confrontation against the communists ever resulted in a clear victory: Korea was a stalemate (although worth fighting because the North Korean invasion was naked aggression that couldn't be allowed to stand) and Vietnam was a humiliation. And no, fighting in Vietnam didn't stop the Soviets from "enslaving the entire world." They couldn't even beat the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan, much less "enslave the entire world".

Well, Yeeeeeee-haaaaaawwwww! you city-clicker. Us simple folks ain't
got no brains to think through complicated matters like these.
(Sarcasm)


Well, if the shoe fits . . .

You chose to take a patronizing attitude with me concerning 9/11, so I merely put you in your place.

A person's choice of residence has nothing to do with their intellectual capacities. It is generally the case, however, that rural residents have less opportunity to come in direct contact with people from other cultures, are less likely to learn foreign languages, to live or travel in foreign countries, or to be exposed to the full spectrum of intellectual alternatives. The straightforward virtues of loyalty, patriotism, hardwork, etc. tend to prevail. That's the way it is and has always been, and I don't have a problem with that. But I'm not interested in the views on foreign policy held by people who don't even have a passport. Perhaps you do, but nothing you've written so far shows evidence of any knowledge other than that obtained through news media.

Wow, not only are you a master debater, but you are psychic too.
By using your magic powers, you seem to be able to determine my
approximate location. (Sarcasm...in case you didn't pick up on that)


It doesn't take psychic powers to deduce something that's blatantly obvious.

Wow...again you display your amazing psychic power and jump to idiotic
conclusions that you have no proof of. My understanding of other
cultures does not depend on CNN. It depends on a myriad of sources.


And those myriad sources are? Do CNN plus Fox count as a "myriad" I wonder? Have you read scholarly histories of Palestine and the Middle East in general? If so, which ones? Have you traveled in the Middle East? Have you ever lived among Muslims? How many Muslims do you personally know? How many Palestinians do you personally know? How many Israelis? Can you read, or at least find access to translations of, news sources or scholarship written in French, German, Arabic? Have you ever watched any non-mass-media documentaries, such as that by James Longley, about conditions in the West Bank? If you can answer in the affirmative to these questions, you have access to a "myriad" of sources. If not, you're just getting the same recycled platitudes shared by the majority of Anglo-American mass media.

Classic liberal behavior. Attempt to shift the blame off of the
perceived "underdog"(muslims) and do everything in your power to
demonize the "advantaged" group(white people).
Yes, there is no doubt that those "White Protestant Germans"
did some atrocious things. And, if I was alive back then,
I would have railed against them. But, in todays world, the
people committing the most atrocious acts on a regular basis
are Muslim extremists. So, I will rail against them.


I am not demonizing white people, simply demonstrating that Muslims do not have a monopoly on murderousness. And also pointing out the historical fact that Christians have actually murdered more people throughout history than Muslims have. Which is not a defense of Islam. I find Islam silly and misguided, but I see that as function of the fact that it is an offshoot of two equally silly and misguided religions, namely Christianity and Judaism. These "sky-god" religions that were born in the deserts of the middle east have collectively been responsible for more human misery than any ideologies yet created by humankind. In fact, one can argue that communism itself is an outgrowth of the messianic fantasy-complex inherent in Judeo-Christianity. But that's a topic for a whole different thread.

You compare the anomaly of one man acting alone to the actions of
thousands...maybe even millions of Muslim extremists? I don't
know if you are going to be able to admit the following fact: Muslim
extremism is rampant, intolerant, world-wide, and violent.


He wasn't acting alone. There are plenty more like him who would do the same if given the chance. I'm sure there are quite a few so-called "libertarians" or "freedom lovers" even on this forum who sympathize, at least in theory, with the principle of taking violent action against the government, which was McVeigh's whole point. And the day care center that was in that building he demolished is simply "collateral damage" in the war against government oppression.

And yes, I do admit that Muslim extremism is rampant, intolerant, worldwide, and violent. Show me anywhere that I said otherwise. Where you and I differ rests on two points: first, I consider nationalism, including American nationalism, just as much a threat to the world and to the lives of innocent people, as radical Islam. Second, I do not believe that demonizing Islam and calling for the murder of all fundamentalists is the correct way to address the problem of radical Islam. Creating endless cycles of retaliation does not create peace--it merely creates situations like the one in the West Bank.

And, I've seen your ilk a thousand times. The self-hating
liberal who despises his country, his culture, and his origins.
It is perfectly acceptable and even necessary for an American to
question his government's actions. But, I can sense a "guilty white
liberal" bent oozing out of your pores. If you disagree with how
things are, then do something about it.


What makes you think I hate myself? Your statement assumes that my sense of "self" is inextricably linked to my nationality. This is further evidence of the fact that the virus of nationalism has colonized your mind completely. And since I do not believe in the fictitious community called "the nation" I am also incapable of believing in "collective guilt" or "collective responsibility", so I how can I feel guilty about something that people in the past did who have no connection with me whatsoever other than the fact that we're both white and call ourselves American?

What you call the "self-hating liberal" attitude is simply a refusal to apply a double standard which forgives the misdeeds of the "home team" and exaggerates the failings of the "enemy." I don't know why conversatives find it impossible to fathom this attitude, but it might have something to do with the fact that their view of the world is deeply rooted in things like clannishness, and competitive sports, where you're supposed to root for the home team. I have no use for this. I consider myself a human being first, an individual second, a member of my family third, and an American maybe fourth or fifth.

If liberals err, we err on the side of applying a higher standard to ourselves and our own countries than we do for others. But I see nothing wrong with this because only by applying the highest possible standard to oneself can one ever improve. Blaming others does nothing to improve oneself, and in fact it does nothing to improve others either.

If it helps establish democracy in the Middle East, puts the fear
of "Allah" into Muslim terrorists, and brings peace and security to
that volatile area, then yes it is justified. I only hope it works
out.


Put the fear of "Allah" into Muslim terrorists? You're kidding, right?
Have the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq put the fear of Allah into those guerrillas who are picking off American soldiers in Iraq with impunity as we speak?

Can you not see the excruciatingly obvious, basic logical contradiction of trying to intimidate with force people who are not afraid of death?

And where exactly, six months on, is the democracy, peace, and security that this invasion was supposed to bring? If anything, the middle east is even more unstable now than it was before. Terrorists have been pouring into Iraq ever since Saddam's regime fell. Saddam is still on the loose, as is Osama bin Laden.

Well, maybe they were happy because instead of having to engage in
an invasion where perhaps a million American troops, Japanese troops,
and Japanese civilians would be killed, only 50,000 Japanese
civilians were killed.


100,000 were killed in Hiroshima, 50,000 in Nagasaki. Total: 150,000. THREE TIMES the bogus statistic you pulled out of your ass, yet again. I hope you realize that every time you do that you display an ignorance of history that tends to discredit everything you say. As far as why all of those people were happy goes, we will never know for sure, but I have no doubt that many of them were happy to see the Japanese suffer and die. Americans are not immune from the human desire for revenge.

I would have done things differently if
I were in charge. I would have dropped the bomb on a remote area as
a warning to the Japanese. A Muslim terrorist would have dropped
one on every city and laughed the entire time.


Now you're comparing what YOU would have done against what a terrorist would have done, instead of comparing the far more pertinent issue of what AMERICA DID DO against what a terrorist would have done. If a terrorist had two a-bombs, he would have dropped them both on populated cities. Oops! That's exactly what America did! Except that a terrorist would have been all smiles afterwards. Oops! The average American was all smiles when the war ended! The only difference was that our politicians made grave faces and spoke in somber tones about the dreadful necessity of what they HAD to do. So I guess if politicians spout rhetoric, that makes it alright, right? That makes all the difference.

We aren't special. But, neither are we monsters.

And neither is the average Muslim or the average Palestinian.

Finally, something you say rings of the absolute truth.

If you sincerely think so, maybe you should try a little harder to apply it to your own thinking.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1964833 - 09/30/03 12:49 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

well said,

"If liberals err, we err on the side of applying a higher standard to ourselves and our own countries than we do for others"

it's unfortunate that so many people mistake this sentiment for self-hatred, guilt or whatever. they just don't get it.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1965527 - 09/30/03 09:41 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You compare the anomaly of one man acting alone to the actions of thousands...maybe even millions of Muslim extremists?

Come on randall, what percentage of muslims do you think are terrorists? Say you go to a muslim country and your kid gets knocked down in the street (NOT by a muslim terrorist!) and you run to the nearest door for help. What's the chances they're gonna help you? I really can't see many of them breaking out the dancing shoes.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1965560 - 09/30/03 09:59 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I have a feeling we are going to start going in circles with our
arguments. I will sum things up:

I did not pull the 50,000 figure "out of my ass".
It was my knowledge that approximately 100,000 were killed in
Hiroshima and approximately 50,000 were killed in Nagasaki. I
actually looked it up some on the the internet and I got the figures
of 130,000 and 70,000. When I said the 50,000 figure I did it
haphazardly. My brain only remembered Nagasaki's death toll. I made
a mistake.

I am resentful that you automatically stereotype me as some small
town hick. You mistake me for some dumb, beer-drinking, football
loving pro-American zealot. Ironically, you could not be further
from the truth. That attitude makes you appear to be a pretensious
elitist. I do have a passport. I have been to Europe, most major
cities in the United States, and I have met Muslims.

It seems that our natural combativeness and preconceptions are
tainting our debate. I'll admit that I get riled up fairly easily,
and when that happens I am more likely to engage in sniping at the
other person than to engage in reasoned debate. And, if you can't
tell, I do have a thing against liberals.

I don't agree with a lot of things this country is doing and has done.
I think that we have done and are doing some absolutely wrong things
in the Middle East. I don't think we should prop up the governments
that we do. I don't think we should give them money and weapons. I
don't think we should kiss Israel's ass every chance we get. I
think we should take all of the money we send to these countries and
spend it on research for alternative energy cars so that we don't need
all of that oil.

You seem to recognize that terrorists who target innocent civilians
are bad people. I agree.

You have gotten across the point that ANYBODY is capable of shitty
things, not just Muslims. I agree whole-heartedly. Yes, Americans
have done some shitty things in the past. An American is every bit
as capable as a Muslim of descending down a path that preaches
violence.

I guess my main point in all of this was that it is an indisputable
fact that(I am quoting from a previous message of mine)

Muslim extremism is rampant, intolerant, world-wide, and violent.


I think that Muslim extremists represent a clear and present danger
to most countries around this world. We must make an effort to stop
all people who wish to initiate force against innocent civilians.
And, before you start screaming, "But, what about America!!"; I mean
America as well.



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1965576 - 09/30/03 10:06 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I for one am not shitting myself over muslim terrorists randall. A bomb or two every year is not a clear and present threat in my book. The IRA were far more deadly.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1965603 - 09/30/03 10:22 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I am resentful that you automatically stereotype me as some small
town hick. You mistake me for some dumb, beer-drinking, football
loving pro-American zealot. Ironically, you could not be further
from the truth. That attitude makes you appear to be a pretensious
elitist. I do have a passport. I have been to Europe, most major
cities in the United States, and I have met Muslims.


I apologize for making assumptions. I'm clearly in the wrong on that point. All I can say in my defense is that, after having that horrible day seared in my memory forever, after smelling that toxic cloud and seeing the F-15s flying over Manhattan, to have anybody say to me "have you heard of September 11?" is more than enough to make me go ballistic.

I think you're a decent enough guy--I wouldn't have spent so much time and care on my posts if I didn't think so. All I'm asking for, pleading for in fact, is an end to these knee-jerk "string 'em all up" kind of remarks that just seem to explode out of some otherwise very reasonable observations. I suspect that you don't even really mean them in your heart of hearts, but rhetoric unfortunately has a way of taking on a life of its own. The cool application of justice, and not blind revenge, is the only hope for our future as a race.

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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1966243 - 09/30/03 01:49 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

honestly i wont bite my tongue about 9/11, i dont give a fuck about it. do i kno people that died there? yes. my skool was like less than 15 blox away. wutever, shit happens. even the greatest country in the world has it coming to them. it happens to everyone, its another hurdle, thats it. tell me, israeli troops fire tank shells at young kids on palestinan streets, why dont we see this in the media? this worse than the attacks on 9/11. this shows less humanity, the people that staged the attack had virtually no reason except for the US being filled with "infidels" the tank gunner had no reason other than the kids throwing rocks at tanks. its funny to me now, how we all reach for our own. the day the United States truly recieves theirs... nvm.

this is basically an underground world war.

as for Arafat, its one of those things all people besides palestinians wont be happy with. he donates blood its "to make him self look good" he doesnt sympathize with the US and hes an asshole. in the eyes of the palestinian people including myself Arafat is fuckin HERO! he picked up the torch when noone would step up to the plate. its like the fuckin revolutionary war. hey if civilians must die then they must, its fate. many palestinian civilians die as well, shit civilians die getting hit by drunk drivers. what is done about that? fate is master of all things. hey its all good 9 years is what i say.


--------------------
More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

"I await this day with no fear ,but the knowlege that that most rewarding and enlightening experiance of life is death." - Chinacat

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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1966260 - 09/30/03 01:56 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

oh and randall noone is being demonized. and in my eyes the palestinians are not the underdogs. look at the fuckin TV, they are agressors, the israelis are just "defending". ahh strange bittersweet exsistance. i used to take a non biased standpoint on the issue. but after a good while of analyzing the situation its not hard to see which side to side with. its like the skins say "might makes right" if the jews have the might then let them smite my palestinian brethren and end it. but as for now we may not have missles and tanks but we have the mental might the israelis lack.


--------------------
More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

"I await this day with no fear ,but the knowlege that that most rewarding and enlightening experiance of life is death." - Chinacat

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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1966291 - 09/30/03 02:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

wow echo! that blew my mind, laudable response.


--------------------
More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

"I await this day with no fear ,but the knowlege that that most rewarding and enlightening experiance of life is death." - Chinacat

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1966337 - 09/30/03 02:19 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Arafat should have taken the deal Barok made several years ago.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1966378 - 09/30/03 02:32 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

i disagree. i think Arafat should be the one setting the standards for deals,and the israelis sould be the one agreeing to them. and the israelis obviously dont want much peace anyway because they consistently elect horrible leaders. neither this guy or the last wanted peace, its all pretend over there and not just from 1 side, both sides are pretending they want peace. both sides want it all or nothing, and what israel offers is always a slap in the face.


--------------------
More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

"I await this day with no fear ,but the knowlege that that most rewarding and enlightening experiance of life is death." - Chinacat

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1966420 - 09/30/03 02:43 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

It would seem that they both deserve each other.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1966444 - 09/30/03 02:55 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

and the israelis obviously dont want much peace anyway



Israel did not hesitate to trade land for peace when Anwar Sadat switched from showing bad intentions to showing good intentions.

Arafat on the other hand has not during the past 35 years shown any credible evidence that he aspires to be anything more than a terrorist.

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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1966683 - 09/30/03 04:18 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Baby-possibly, except that before the occupation it was a place of relative peace

rhizoid- land for peace? haha please did u see what land they wanted to trade for "peace"? sadat is a fucking pawn, he is weak and he should be dealt with as such, sadat is not a palestinian he is an israeli in disguise. sadat only wants to be held in high status for if/when peace is made he is in charge of palestine.


--------------------
More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

"I await this day with no fear ,but the knowlege that that most rewarding and enlightening experiance of life is death." - Chinacat

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OfflineZahid
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1966979 - 09/30/03 05:53 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Lets go back about 2 years ago before 9/11. Heck, lets just go back to the 1990's. Remember, Gary Conditt, and all that. Even with the infamous Tel Aviv Disco suicide bombing in July; there was hardly anyone bitching and complaining about Islam and Muslims. Sure, the Arab/Israeli conflict continued, the Muslims fought their civil wars with each other in peace, and no one seemed to mind that Muslims in Chechnya were taking up arms against Russian soldiers - and heck, Muslims who fought the Serbs in Bosnia were commended as heroes!

But, 9/11 had to happen, and however it did happen, it happened. 19, obviously sub-par intelligent Muslim fundamentalists got lucky. Not only did they manage to get inside the United States, they managed to take flying lessons even while the FBI was aware of it - and above that carry out the 9/11 strike. Now, these guys were dumb and morally indiscriminate. They frequented bars, and bought pay-per-view pornography with the excuse they were "blending in with the enemy". One of the operatives even bragged about being a pilot when someone at a bar got tough with him. Finally, everyone was commanded not to pay attention to the people on the plane, even the women and children, because "they must be sacrificed in order to strike the enemy". If THIS was Islam, America would have a crisis on its hand - each chapter in the Qur'an opens with "In the name of Allah, who is Most Merciful, Most Compassionate", and somehow these fanatics think they have it all figured out. Yes, there are Muslim terrorists. But when people dwell on this, they hardly take a minute to look at the political strife that is embeded in the Muslim world. It's third world, and it's horrible, and all the people have to keep themselves from going completely insane is al-Islam.


--------------------

Edited by Zahid (09/30/03 05:56 PM)

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Offlineshakta
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1967269 - 09/30/03 07:18 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
When a tragedy occurs that happens to the "enemies" of Muslims, they laugh and cheer

Strange, I'm sure I saw Yasser Arafat giving blood to help the people of New York after Sep 11.




Your killing me Alex. That was a political move by him for sure. You aren't dense enough to believe he did it cause he cared.

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OfflineZahid
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: shakta]
    #1967326 - 09/30/03 07:31 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Even if it was a political move, it's no different than the 'good deeds' politicians from every wing of the globe like to boast about.


--------------------

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Offlineshakta
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1967377 - 09/30/03 07:47 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Solitude said:
i disagree. i think Arafat should be the one setting the standards for deals,and the israelis sould be the one agreeing to them. and the israelis obviously dont want much peace anyway because they consistently elect horrible leaders. neither this guy or the last wanted peace, its all pretend over there and not just from 1 side, both sides are pretending they want peace. both sides want it all or nothing, and what israel offers is always a slap in the face.




You continue to defy logic and fact with every post you make. Barek offered Arafat the farm. He decided to through it in the Israelis face and start a war. The Israelis decided the peace process was not going to work so they elected one of their best military generals in their history to take care of the problem. I just wonder why he hasn't.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1968178 - 09/30/03 11:47 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Arafat on the other hand has not during the past 35 years shown any credible evidence that he aspires to be anything more than a terrorist.

Check out the 93 peace agreement. To say a "terrorist" would agree to something as humiliating as that for the palestinians is beyond the realms of belief.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: shakta]
    #1968179 - 09/30/03 11:48 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Your killing me Alex. That was a political move by him for sure. You aren't dense enough to believe he did it cause he cared.

How many times have you met Arafat and discussed this with him?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1968326 - 10/01/03 12:31 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

How may times have you met G.W.?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineZahid
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1968340 - 10/01/03 12:35 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
How may times have you met G.W.?




We all know Bush, he is the leader the United States; the free world. We hardly know a thing about Arafat except what's reported in the mass media. Can anyone here even name Arafat's cabinet?


--------------------

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Zahid]
    #1968355 - 10/01/03 12:38 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

All we know about Bush is what we see on the Tee Vee as well.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1968611 - 10/01/03 02:23 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"All we know about Bush is what we see on the Tee Vee as well. "


well try writing gorge w bush in a search engine???

anyway, not all of us know little about bush, hell there is so much to know, LIKE HE DID BUSSINESS WITH OSAMAS BROTHER!!!!!(back in texas)

his family are a bunch of NAZI's!


--------------------

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1968704 - 10/01/03 03:36 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
How may times have you met G.W.? 



:lol:

Sweet.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1969049 - 10/01/03 09:35 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

How may times have you met G.W.?

But I'm not claiming to know someone so well I know their inner motivation for giving blood.

btw, has George Bush ever given blood for the Palestinians?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1969108 - 10/01/03 10:08 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)


All I'm asking for, pleading for in fact, is an end to these knee-jerk "string 'em all up" kind of remarks that just seem to explode out of some otherwise very reasonable observations.

I see where you're coming from.  I'll try, but I can make no
promises.  :smile:   

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1969595 - 10/01/03 01:32 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

He's read books to children.

[image]http://www.bucklake.leon.k12.fl.us/hoffman/Bush_reading.jpeg[/image]


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Offlinelysergic
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Zahid]
    #1969775 - 10/01/03 03:11 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
Excuse me, but when did I ever stereotype Americans [LET ALONE White Americans]? HELLO, I'm WHITE - And when did I sympathize with Osama bin Laden? Not once since becoming a Muslim did I ever find myself attracted to the mindless fanaticism of Islamists and Jihadists. What is it, that I am a Muslim - and opposed to Bush's quasi-neofascist administration give the impression to you that I support such heinous bloodshed in the name of all that is Holy and Good? What an outrage. The current book that I am reading right now (and happen to enjoy, alot) is The Trouble With Islam by Irshad Manji, a feminist, lesbian Muslim woman from Canada. And you're accusing me of 'arguing about Osama'? :wtf:

Moreso, the term 'sand nigger' is the stupidest phrase since 'nigger'. Only an imbecile, a fucking moron would recite such garbage anywhere, let alone a forum that is home to many 'enlightened' ones. A big thumbs down to those who hold racist, bigoted tendencies towards Arabs and Muslims, justifying it to themselves that it's not the same as 'conventional racism' and thus OK and accepted. It's fools like lysergic that is wrong with civilized society.





I've been gone from the forum a few weeks doing some stuff, so I wont' reply to all of these messages.  It's interesting that not even Gotema labeled himself as "enlightened", yet you do.  Are you sure thats not your ego talking, Oh Zalid The Buddha? :-)


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1969851 - 10/01/03 03:36 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

jealous?


--------------------
More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

"I await this day with no fear ,but the knowlege that that most rewarding and enlightening experiance of life is death." - Chinacat

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OfflineZahid
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1970225 - 10/01/03 05:59 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

lysergic said:
I've been gone from the forum a few weeks doing some stuff, so I wont' reply to all of these messages. It's interesting that not even Gotema labeled himself as "enlightened", yet you do. Are you sure thats not your ego talking, Oh Zalid The Buddha? :-)




By "enlightened" [and do take notice I used quotations in the original post], I mean in a collective psychedelic sense, not a self-serving sense. YOU are the one is racist. How ignorant can one get? Racist people have sub par intelligence and immature reasoning. And don't you dare say I have an ego because you're the one perpetuating this bigoted, racist garbage. It's sick.

And it's Zahid, not Zalid.


--------------------

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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: lysergic]
    #1971293 - 10/01/03 11:00 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

thank you


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Offlineshakta
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1973963 - 10/02/03 07:20 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

His brother lives here and has denounced his brother as has the rest of the family. :rolleyes:

Alex I know plenty about terrafat. He is a rejectionist, always has been always will be. Why doesn't he use some of that $900,000,000 he has to help his people?

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: shakta]
    #1974777 - 10/02/03 11:45 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Alex I know plenty about terrafat. He is a rejectionist

I'd learn a little more. Try reading the conditions he agreed to in the 1993 peace agreement. You'll be amazed at what an incredible humiliation it was for the palestinians.

Why doesn't he use some of that $900,000,000 he has to help his people?

Judging by the conditions of the 1993 aggreement helping his people isn't too high on his agenda.

Where did you pull the $900,000,000 from btw? Your ass?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1977342 - 10/03/03 07:20 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

how the fuck do u kno arafats finances? shit why isnt he on forbes 400? and as for him being "denounced"... his brother is here because of the strife in palestine. do u really think he is going to be supportive of his brother that HAS and i say HAS (as in the past) been involved in terrorist activities. arafat's family is weak and stupid, if that were my family i would praise his name and put posters up so everyone could take notice of the great pride. then again be logical noone wants to be associated with drama they have nothing to do with. shit if arafat had 900,000,000 he could probably buy palestine back from the israelis. once again 9 years.


--------------------
More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

"I await this day with no fear ,but the knowlege that that most rewarding and enlightening experiance of life is death." - Chinacat

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Offlinedomite
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Zahid]
    #1977734 - 10/03/03 10:27 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:

... morally indiscriminate. They frequented bars, and bought pay-per-view pornography




*GASP!!!!*
well, I didnt mind the fact that they killed people, but this really pisses me off!!!

and solitude, do you go to stuy? you siad your school was less than 13 blocks...

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Invisiblecooksquadron65
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: domite]
    #1977796 - 10/03/03 10:53 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Arafat finances: http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2003/0317/049.html
The Middle East is a very complex problem. One of many being the ongoing battle between Israel and Palestine. Wait, there is no "Palestine." I mean the palestinians. Forgive my error.
On the topic of Israel and Palestine, how many of you would enjoy having a neighboring country launch missles, stage helicopter and airplane bombing raids, use snipers and armed soldier blockades, enforce neighboorhood curfews in YOUR neighboorhoods, build seclusionist walls, defy UN orders, take no account for refugee camp slaughters, have your land taken, homes bulldozed, and have militery raids and actions carried out in your land?
The palestinians fight with rocks and homemade bombs. Some have AK-47's, which are inaccurate and jam easily.
Israel has American war gizmos, which are bought with American monetary aid.
Now, if you were in the palestinians shoes, don't you think you'd be a bit pissed too?

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: cooksquadron65]
    #1977914 - 10/03/03 11:32 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

If I were in the Palestinians' shoes, I'd be walking away from all that.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: cooksquadron65]
    #1977975 - 10/03/03 11:58 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

have AK-47's, which are inaccurate and jam easily.





I call B.S. on that one. AK-47's are one of the most jam-proof weapons in existence. They do trade off some accuracy for their reliability.

They didn't get to be the most prolific battle rifle in history by being a jam-o-matic.


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: wingnutx]
    #1977987 - 10/04/03 12:07 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I was about the say that. Don't M-16's actually jam more than AK's?

You should go over to OTD Shakta. I'd like to talk weapons with you. While I hate them for the sole reason that they kill and maim,they are damn interesting.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Edited by monoamine (10/04/03 12:09 AM)

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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: monoamine]
    #1978003 - 10/04/03 12:17 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not shakta, but yes M-16s are far more prone to jamming than AK-based weapons. You have to keep them very clean.

Both are excellent weapons in their own way. I have civilian versions of both, and like them both.

Any particular post on OTD? I check that board periodically.

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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: wingnutx]
    #1978031 - 10/04/03 12:27 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

My bad,I'm quite fucked up at the moment,WINGNUT. :grin:

There was a thread about assault rifles (sorry Luv,I mean gas powered,automatic,miltary,medium-long barreled....) in OTD about AK's.

Have you ever played Ghost Recon? If you have any interest in video games whatsoever you'd probably love that game. It's very similar to the combat simulations that the army uses. One shot,you're dead. 


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: monoamine]
    #1978072 - 10/04/03 12:40 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

nah, I don't play games much. i do play paintball, though :smile:

an AK-47 is an assault rifle, though that term does get bent and turtured quite a bit :smile:

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Anonymous

Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Xlea321]
    #1978156 - 10/04/03 01:11 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

hahah you said sand-niggers

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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1981226 - 10/05/03 12:22 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"If I were in the Palestinians' shoes, I'd be walking away from all that."
Why? would the US make a Palestinian homeland? we just want what we had, its either they go or we go and why should we go when we were there first?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1981247 - 10/05/03 12:31 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Why cant you both live together? No ones going anywhere.


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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: GazzBut]
    #1981566 - 10/05/03 02:34 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

because palestinians have been humiliated enuff and the israelites offer virtually no land in comparisson to what they want to keep. even its not theirs to begin with.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1981598 - 10/05/03 02:59 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

How many jews were in palestine before it was made into Israel? How many palestinians?


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1981671 - 10/05/03 03:28 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

From the last days of the final Islamic Khilafah and onward, Jews slowly started to settle in Palestine - an area that was mostly inhabited by Arabs. In fact, the Arabs welcomed the Jews at first. As more and more Jews arrived, tensions grew and before you knew it British buildings were being bombed by Zionist groups and constant fighting broke out between Jews and Arabs. Look at the Middle Eastern map today: Israel is completely surrounded by Arab states.


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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Zahid]
    #1981795 - 10/05/03 04:37 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Zahid u beat me to the punch!
yes Baby; that is the way it is. we WELCOMED the jews, and later got shafted- hard.


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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1981923 - 10/05/03 05:43 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

If the 1993 offer Barok made is unacceptable, what do you think would be a fair deal?


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1981957 - 10/05/03 06:01 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

honestly if it was me id be past peace mode, id be building and army and assigning and ultimatum, leave or total war. im pretty sure id win. shit Arafat is making th right move not cooperating anymore, hes done enough to help make peace and on top of the fact that he gets shafted all the time he's also seen as this asshole. they guy is gettin old, im sure he jus wats to chill now. shit i would gladly carry the torch, but times have changed.


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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1981964 - 10/05/03 06:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You think Palestine would win against Israel in a war? Not a chance. Israel could wipe every palestinian off the face of the earth if they were willing to do so.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1981969 - 10/05/03 06:06 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

no contest.

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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1981970 - 10/05/03 06:09 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

IF it was me (lets face it Solitude, Israel is here to stay), my demands would be:

-Palestian independence in all of West Bank and Gaza Strip.

-The Right of Return for Palestinians booted out of Israel.

-East Jerusalem (Masjid al-Aqsa) as the Palestinian capital.

-Compensation for innocent Palestian lives and property.

-Legitimate military opportunities for Palestinians.

-Foreign Aid to rebuild the Palestinian territories and create jobs.


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Edited by Zahid (10/05/03 06:10 PM)

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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Zahid]
    #1981993 - 10/05/03 06:19 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

we would win. guaranteed. again 9 yrs


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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1981997 - 10/05/03 06:21 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

past performance is a pretty good indication of future performance.


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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: wingnutx]
    #1982000 - 10/05/03 06:22 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

true, but indicators arent 100% accurate :wink:. trust me we would win.


--------------------
More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Zahid]
    #1982003 - 10/05/03 06:22 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

What is the difference between that and the 1993 offer?


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1982017 - 10/05/03 06:29 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The right of return was rejected, among other things I believe - including Masjid al-Aqsa (The Mosque of Ahmad) in East Jerusalem. I admit Arafat doesn't seem like a big fan of Mideast Peace, but is the elected Palestinian leader and obviously he understands Israel is here to stay as most Arabs subconsciously know - but the 1993 accord would not have solved the problem.


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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1982029 - 10/05/03 06:34 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Solitude said:
we would win. guaranteed. again 9 yrs




And then what would we do? Take care of the millions of Jewish people there? I'm sorry, but the fanatical approach to destroy Israel is unreasonable and primitive. Israel was formed criminally we agree, but today it has sunk its roots deep into the soil. We need an Israeli mother and a Palestinian mother doing all the negotiations, not two belligerent old fundamentalists.


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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Zahid]
    #1982059 - 10/05/03 06:48 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

listen it wont work like that. ever. palestinians are very proud people. you spit on my face i will reciprocate 3 times over. peace would be great, but there is no way palestine will ever be mended without blood. primitive yes. but we are no diffrent now then we were then it is proved day in day out. we are not more sophisticated than our forefathers in anyway, we are really geh compared to them. we think we are the shit cuz we have TV and shit. nah we arent. and i kno not one palestinian that will ever accept defeat, why should we when we will never be defeated. as for taking care of the jews, i dont mind if they live die or w/e jus as everyone else. they are no diffrent. they just will have to be relocated as many palestinians were. it may seem ruthless or w/e but honestly its not , i dont care about races or any of that. just that everyone has their place nad palestine is ours all of it, not 2 little chunks. once again peace would be great but again. let us be realisitic.


--------------------
More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

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OfflineZahid
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1982074 - 10/05/03 06:56 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Solitude said:
listen it wont work like that. ever. palestinians are very proud people. you spit on my face i will reciprocate 3 times over. peace would be great, but there is no way palestine will ever be mended without blood. primitive yes. but we are no diffrent now then we were then it is proved day in day out. we are not more sophisticated than our forefathers in anyway, we are really geh compared to them. we think we are the shit cuz we have TV and shit. nah we arent. and i kno not one palestinian that will ever accept defeat, why should we when we will never be defeated. as for taking care of the jews, i dont mind if they live die or w/e jus as everyone else. they are no diffrent. they just will have to be relocated as many palestinians were. it may seem ruthless or w/e but honestly its not , i dont care about races or any of that. just that everyone has their place nad palestine is ours all of it, not 2 little chunks. once again peace would be great but again. let us be realisitic.




Okay, simple question: Lets say Palestine did gain military control over Israel, with what money, and with what army could we even hold down such a place.

Eat some mushrooms, akhi.


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Edited by Zahid (10/05/03 06:57 PM)

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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Zahid]
    #1982102 - 10/05/03 07:08 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

all things come with time. i doubt if the palestinians did gain control of palestine again they would let it go so easily. these are problems that can be overcome. we are saying in the first place that they have an army to gain control over "israel". u think the army that did this would jus dissapear right afterwards? not easy but not too hard.


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More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

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OfflineZahid
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1982127 - 10/05/03 07:20 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I'm asking, what would we do with all the Israelis of all ages who are living in Israel?


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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Zahid]
    #1982173 - 10/05/03 07:38 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

and i said they should be relocated.


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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1982288 - 10/05/03 08:25 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Relocated?

I don't think that has ever been done, so what makes you think the Palestinians can do it, akhi? Look at how much trouble the United States - the most ominous military power in the world - is handling the Iraqi situation. I'm sorry, but you are young and naive - and erroneous in your assertion that Israel must be destroyed. I don't think any of the liberal posters on the board have a fanatical stance like; and believe me, there is a genuine hatred for the Israeli governments that remains in the boundaries of what is humane, and what isn't - and what is geo-politically possible, and what isn't.


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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Zahid]
    #1982338 - 10/05/03 08:41 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

sorry man im high and i dont really kno what u are talkin about. but i do kno that i am not naive , my family is palestinian, i kno alot of my shit from people that lived that shit.
they relocated from germany to palestine, go back. please you dont kno me so dont think u have scratched the surface by labeling me "young and naive". i have much respect for you because of some of the shit u have said, and i need no ones agreements on comments, but serially bro, u dont kno me.


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More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1982404 - 10/05/03 09:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know you, but you are presenting an illogical - not to mention un-Islamic, solution to what is happening between the Palestinians and Israelis. My 'naive' comment was not a personal attack, I was assessing your beliefs as naive - But, as you said you were Palestinian and I have always showed patience with those who are 'culture-bound' to a certain geo-political mess. At that, you can't relocate several million people because they're not Arab Muslims. It's steeping down to the same low as Ultra Orthodox Jews who rally for the destruction of Palestinian homes for a 'Greater Israel'. Hate begets hate, and the message of Rasool Allah was to beget Love.


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Edited by Zahid (10/05/03 09:11 PM)

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Zahid]
    #1982421 - 10/05/03 09:11 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Well said.

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OfflineSolitude
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1982494 - 10/05/03 09:43 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

agreed well said
im not a muslim.
i dont mean rolocate all the people but many of them and i dont mean put em on a boat and send them on their way. i mean they can figure out where they wanna go and they 1) have 1-2 years to be out. or they can stay and comply with PALESTINE. nothing forced.


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More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

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OfflineMalachi
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1982508 - 10/05/03 09:50 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Those people over there seem to routinely scream "Death to America"
and stuff like that. Do we really want them electing their own
leaders??




umm... yes. when, perchance, was the last time a democracy went to war with another democracy?

yeah. war is bad.... but war ALREADY HAPPENED. so we might as well insert the BEST FUCKING GOV'T SYSTEM KNOWN TO MAN.

you know, democracy? the thing that made it possible for us to all be so (comparatively) rich and free? yeah, it's a good thing. even for sand niggers. even for white imperialists. even for asian imperialists. even for.... everyone, man. democracy is good shiat.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Malachi]
    #1982726 - 10/05/03 11:13 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

And besides when the people are empowered to have controll over their government and they use that power to choose to attack us, then we can vaporize them into a pink mist and not feel bad.


--------------------
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The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1982736 - 10/05/03 11:17 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Pink? That can't be good for business.  :tongue: 


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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Zahid]
    #1982754 - 10/05/03 11:24 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Actually, now we can turn our enemies directly into oil.

http://www.discover.com/may_03/featoil.html


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

Edited by Baby_Hitler (10/05/03 11:24 PM)

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OfflineGazzBut
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Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1982960 - 10/06/03 01:18 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

honestly if it was me id be past peace mode, id be building and army and assigning and ultimatum, leave or total war. im pretty sure id win. shit Arafat is making th right move not cooperating anymore, hes done enough to help make peace and on top of the fact that he gets shafted all the time he's also seen as this asshole. they guy is gettin old, im sure he jus wats to chill now. shit i would gladly carry the torch, but times have changed.






Its this kind of bullshit thinking which will just lead to more killings and no peace for the Palestinians. I agree that the Palestinians have been treated despicably but you have to deal with the current situation. There is absolutely no way that you could win a war with Israel. Unless the US suddenly change sides.


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Always Smi2le

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OfflineSolitude
protector of theKitab Al-Alzif
Registered: 09/02/03
Posts: 215
Last seen: 20 years, 4 months
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: GazzBut]
    #1983549 - 10/06/03 10:15 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

yo. we'd win.


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More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

"I await this day with no fear ,but the knowlege that that most rewarding and enlightening experiance of life is death." - Chinacat

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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,287
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1983553 - 10/06/03 10:18 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I bet you're a cubs fan.

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OfflineSolitude
protector of theKitab Al-Alzif
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: wingnutx]
    #1983632 - 10/06/03 11:00 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

nope


--------------------
More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

"I await this day with no fear ,but the knowlege that that most rewarding and enlightening experiance of life is death." - Chinacat

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Solitude]
    #1983978 - 10/06/03 01:24 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I bet The Cubs could wipe out all the palestinians if they wanted to.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,287
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1984341 - 10/06/03 04:13 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

the Baseball Furies sure could, even if they couldn't beat the Warriors.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: wingnutx]
    #1984908 - 10/06/03 08:00 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

They better not piss of the Bad News Bears.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSolitude
protector of theKitab Al-Alzif
Registered: 09/02/03
Posts: 215
Last seen: 20 years, 4 months
Re: The REAL problem with the Middle East [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1985099 - 10/06/03 08:57 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

lol da cubs


--------------------
More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

"I await this day with no fear ,but the knowlege that that most rewarding and enlightening experiance of life is death." - Chinacat

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