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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Heaven or Hell........?
    #3199307 - 09/30/04 11:10 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I was "shown" last night on a shroom trip how we are all just domesticated "civilized" animals with a mental capacity to make moraly informed choices.... Heaven and hell is separated by the thin line of time, and every particular choice we make in life consequently decides what side of that line we stand on at that particular moment in our lives.... This very thought made me contemplate a question that has no answer.... Are we all judged by God based on what side of the line we are standing at the time we die, or is it decided by which side of the line that we have the most accumulative time....?


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"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Heaven or Hell........? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3199449 - 09/30/04 12:10 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I dont believe in Judgement, Good, Evil, Heaven OR Hell but if I did I would say it would be the degree of Good or Evil you did would be the measure.
Degree is made up of Duration, Dose and Frequency  :wink:


You can steal petty things from the grocery store a thousand times, but in terms of Good/Evil these thousand vices would be trivial in comparison with volunteering for gaschamber-duty in Auschwitz for the "fun" of it.

I cannot be the judge whether ten feisty punches in the nose is as evil then a not too coercive rape :shocked: or all those things, but I think the Divine Measure would be the amount of suffering you have dealt in terms of intensity and number of people affected.

If you sneak in my PC to alter some register keys so that my PC starts up with: "Good Afternoon Dipshit" I would say you're a nasty person. If you however hack into a spam-server (which sends tens of millions of deliberate annoyances a day) with either a cleverly designed surgical virus or just the good ole crowbar and a can of gasoline I would call you a hero even though it was destruction of property.

I think the Good and Evil of your enbtire life would be measured on a balance and the side to which it sways would decide your fate.


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Offlinetnecseda
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Re: Heaven or Hell........? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3199469 - 09/30/04 12:16 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

i wanna see how in tune you are with me....i have a question for you

gimpytomcat:"I was "shown" last night on a shroom trip how we are all just domesticated "civilized" animals with a mental capacity to make moraly informed choices"

recently i made a post about a chained dog to run free collarless,and in that attempt,the reasoning was that he would make a choice,to run off and never come back or to come back.Well he came back because you chose to do so.And i was labeled and animal dumper.So based on that quote would you agree with me?


And yes,i've seen that heaven and hell line in everything on a shroom trip,it made me go crazy about everything in life.
I think its not so much "final judgement" but to see what kind of cleansing and work you need.When i saw this,i wasn't sure of heaven and hell as a metaphor or not.I was extremly into brotherhood and myfather and mymother,my life givers.I was intrested on percieving how people live their lives,and how do theydo things without questioning some type of judgment.I do not know if it is out of ignorance or indiffrence. I and others could beignorant to say that there will be judgment.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Heaven or Hell........? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3199614 - 09/30/04 01:02 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

It seems you're referring to the catholic concept of god and the process of salvation.

Well, although my concept of heaven and hell might be very different from yours, personally i believe hell is here on earth. How would you feel if your soul couldn't be "saved" and be left on earth wandering around ? I would feel like living in hell ...

Quote:

Are we all judged by God based on what side of the line we are standing at the time we die, or is it decided by which side of the line that we have the most accumulative time....?




Regarding god and his "final decision", we are the sum of all parts not just the final, our life is the sum of all our moments not just the ending scene. When i think of god, i think of order and discipline instead of law and punishment, he's not a judge with a list of mistakes you did during your life, he's the consciousness of the whole and a multidimensional helping hand.

Don't worry about salvation after death, save yourself now by giving and receiving love, then god will come to you.

On a side note,

Do you know you have more chances with dooms day "salvation" if you get buried in Jerusalem ?
Why ?
Because people think, god will come first to Jerusalem to judge them. They are the first to arrive in the morning out of the crypt, god is in good mood in the morning because he hasn't judge anyone already, so those people buried there will have more chances of being "saved".

Do you believe this to be true ?
I don't, because i don't belive he's tied to human stupidity...

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineWhiteRussian
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Re: Heaven or Hell........? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3199788 - 09/30/04 01:57 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"Are we all judged by God based on what side of the line we are standing at the time we die, or is it decided by which side of the line that we have the most accumulative time....? "

Reality is an illusion, I dont know anyhting about christianity, heaven or hell, but i do know that everyone is trying to reach the same goal. So as for religion goes they are right, because their goal is positive. As from what I understand, you see heaven and hell, as positive and negative thoughts in your trip.....As for gods decition were you go.....I would say positive and negative thoughts are a creation of human mind, I believe that God is beyond all that, he doesnt have positive and negative thoughts, so how can he judge?

The only judge is you. You might accidently be killing hundreds of insects everyday by just walking, is that a sin? you did it but you were not aware of it. Obviously from this scenerio your deff going to hell, if you really think about it, thats just ridiculous.

Im sorry if I offended anyones beliefs, but this is just my opinion, why would it matter?


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Offlinelovelight
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Re: Heaven or Hell........? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3199853 - 09/30/04 02:24 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

GimpyTomCat said:
I was "shown" last night on a shroom trip how we are all just domesticated "civilized" animals with a mental capacity to make moraly informed choices.... Heaven and hell is separated by the thin line of time, and every particular choice we make in life consequently decides what side of that line we stand on at that particular moment in our lives....




maybe what this shows you is that heaven and hell are here and now, not when you die. Although there is the good and the bad outside you and despite you, you can create your own paradise in the mind and soul. It is all within you and now, not when you die.

Quote:

Are we all judged by God based on what side of the line we are standing at the time we die, or is it decided by which side of the line that we have the most accumulative time....?




This is assuming there is someone who is cruel enough to put us on earth, tempt us to sin, the whole time keeping count of how many times we make a mistake, without ever really making the rules clear. How do you know what is right or wrong? Where is the thin line between good and bad you speak of? Blurred beyond recognition, because the world we live in is one big grey area. All you can try to do is be a good person by your own standards. If you put your trust in love, truth, peace and caring, you won't go wrong.


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Turn on your lovelight, let it shine on me


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OfflinePathos
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Re: Heaven or Hell........? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3199856 - 09/30/04 02:25 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I too have a very different concept of heaven and hell (good and evil, etc) then gimpytomcat. The whole concept of judgement is contradictory. Being good for the sake of being judged in a positive light defeats the purpose. You may do a good deed, but if you're motivated by selfishness, how good is that deed, for selfishness is considered in itself to be a sin or vice or whatever. This should be obvious.

Basically to answer the question of how God judges us, I would say that God is probably not judging anyone, so live your life for yourself and use your own inherent judgement when determining right and wrong. I suppose the simplest way to go about this would be to do what will maximize positive consequences for the greatest number of people. I like to believe that God has infinite wisdom and infinite understanding, so if you do what your heart tells you, God will understand.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Heaven or Hell........? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3199898 - 09/30/04 02:37 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Heard at the Improv;

When I was child, I prayed for a new bicycle. Then I learned, the lord didn't work that way, so I stole one and asked for forgiveness.

~ Emo Philips

I saw him there a few months ago and that cracked me up.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflinePathos
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Re: Heaven or Hell........? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3199905 - 09/30/04 02:41 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

hah, I like that


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Heaven or Hell........? [Re: Pathos]
    #3199958 - 09/30/04 03:00 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

all i got to say is heaven and hell both exist on earth, morals are relative and a god that sentances his own creation to hell would be a god worthy of only hate and contempt.

Fortunatly such a god does not exist.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Heaven or Hell........? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3202156 - 10/01/04 01:14 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Hello all, and MUCH RESPECT for EVERYBODY stating their own instilled beliefs without being disrespectful of anyone else's beliefs....    Much respect to you all....   

What made me think of this question was from thinking about the religious irony in the movie "Sleepers"....  The priest took the stand and swore on the Bible to God to tell the truth, then lied on the stand....  Was it justified by the actions in learning the whole story...?  It would be hard to make that call....  It was a situation that would be of great debate, and one that I had never seen before....

About me and my background....  I was born and raised Catholic in a very non-religious home....  I was forced to go to church, and religious education BY MYSELF until the age of 18....  My parents are very good people, but I think they did wrong in making me go by myself....  I think religion is more supposed to be a family orientated thing, and making a child go to church and religious education because "I had to when I was a kid" was a wrong decision on my parent's part....  It built a deep resentment in myself towards religion for a long time....  Looking at the Catholic religion now as an "informed" adult, I view it as another form of control and governmental politics - if you will, and I just don't believe in some of the "rules" that Catholics are supposed to abide by....  It is amazing to me that in days past so many acts of violence were committed by Catholic high-archy in the name of God, and dealt out MUCH PAIN and PUNISHMENT to the "sinners"....  And it still goes on to this day as you hear in the news about the young TORTURED boys by the selfishness of the ACCEPTED "divinely" corrupt....  I had in my signature on my posts when I entered this community:  "Money = Power = Corruption = More Power = More Money - A pyramid scheme with a foundation built upon the root of all evil, and topped off with a little corruption....  The Pope himself is adorned with a lot of gold, and in the eyes of the priesthood, I was thinking that "worldly possessions" that were not based off of necessity, were not allowed....  I would think that a true leader of a religion would wear worthless tin jewelry (if any at all), and would give the unneeded "precious metals" out to the hungry starving people of the poorer nations in the form of food....  Therefore, I would not say that I am a Catholic now, but in the times I "wanted" to believe in a religion, I just wanted to believe that there was an all knowing God - and not necessarily a "right" religion to believe in.... 

I have struggled in my beliefs more-so in the later part of my life....  I am an Engineer, and a very analytical and almost scientific in terms of thought process....  It is very hard for me to believe in something that is not a proven fact....  But then again struggle with "Faith", and believing that we are all part of something much more than we can "see"....  Again tho~, my own personal beliefs are not clear cut and defined, and really seem to change based on some of the things that have happened in my life.... 

It was stated in one post as I read thru all of the responses: to live with good in your heart, and God will find you....  I have never heard it put that way, and had always thought that if you have accepted God into your heart, the good in life will find you....  I have only truly prayed once in my life, and it was recently....  My uncle has cancer and soon after I found out, I prayed for him....  With the help of medicine, he went into remission....  There is no way for me to know if my praying for him actually did any good, but somehow it gave me piece of mind to do that simple thing for him....  It is really all I could do as a mortal man.... 

I personally try to lead a morally positive life, and try my best to do good by others....  Leading by example, and trying my best not to hurt other's - physically or mentally....  I would never raise my hand in anger towards a woman or a man, unless it was to defend myself or another "innocent" from physical harm....  (This does not include smacking the ass of a woman friend in a playful manner...!  :tongue:  LoL)  I try my best to contribute my best to society by taking care of my responsibilities as a "civilized" human on this planet, and take great pride in putting my name on my work, and standing by it....  I am somewhat humble, and have no problem in admitting that I have made a mistake when it happens....  I also try my best to do the "right thing" when not in the eyes of others, and try my best NOT to judge others in their mistakes or personal beliefs....  In my moral beliefs, and understanding of right and wrong, I think that these are some of the main character traits in being a "True Man"....  Wiccan Seeker, I did see your post about this topic, but just didn't have time to put my 2 cents in at that time....  Plus, I think a lot of people had already summed up what my thinking was, and my reply would have been somewhat redundant.... 

This is all a very subjective topic, and I sometimes have a very hard time deciding "what to believe in"....  There are so many unanswered questions that we all might, or might not find out the answers too when we die....  We all want to know the answers, and I think this very fact makes some people have a firm belief in religion, so as to believe that we will truly find out all of the answers from a God when we die....

Some have stated that Hell is here on earth, and for some, it truly is....  And it is sad to think that an all knowing God would allow this, and not step in to help give guidance or true help to the people that have requested it....  It also seems contradictory that a God that gives us life would put us in a place that is knee deep in temptation and truly evil intents of others....


Having talked all about religion here based off of one question/idea that I "received" last night, I had a much deeper "profound" trip that made me "see" a different light of a possible explanation of evolution....  I think that I have always been torn in my beliefs, and maybe that is why I think about this stuff when I trip....  One thing that is always consistent, is it makes me feel like an animal on shrooms....  Not in a violent way, but in a primal heightened sense kinda~ way....  Makes me wonder what all of this is, and how, and why....

I will go look for the other trip thread that I posted, and re-post it here....  It is a little off the original topic, but it will shed some light into why I still remain torn in what to believe in....  Sorry for the length of this thread, I am sure the next one will double the size of my post...!!!  :smile: 

ChoW~


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Heaven or Hell........? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3202202 - 10/01/04 01:32 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Trip #2, the other side of the fence, but still walking the line.... I think that it is important for you to know that I do not read a lot, and I only know the basics of evolution and it's counterdiction to religion and the Scriptures - too which I also have only a basic learning/understanding.... I was very bad in school when it came to history and government.... If this is an idea that someone else has already written about, it would be purely coincidental that I had these thoughts - unknowingly and independently without outside insight....

The evolution of man based on the insights from one of my trips...:
What if in the beginning of man's evolution on this planet, it started out with "small tribes" of people spread out all over the different lands (however they came to be there).... This is before transportation/tools/language or any other of the things we learned and developed with 4% of our brains (is 4% right?).... As communication and intelligence developed differently for each tribe, they would colonize an area and live off of the land and the food available that was souly indigenous to the area.... Each "tribe" of people would naturally (over much much time) adapt and develop by way of the chemicals in the foods that they ate.... They would build certain immunities and common mutations to what they were exposed to thru time as they learned what was food and what was poizon.... That which does not kill you makes you stronger.... Human lifespan was very short back then, and I would have to think that bloodlines had to be in their "purest" form (which I think would allow for inbreeding without mutations...?)

As these separate "tribes" that survived grew into colonies and later separate nations of people, it all makes sense to me in reasoning the fact that there are such a diverse range of: cultures/traditions, languages, skin colors, religions, intelligence levels, types of foods, styles of traditional music, morals, facial/body structures, strengths, weaknesses, governments, currencies, etc. etc, in this world.... It would also explain why certain ethnic groups of people are more prone to getting specific diseases - not having built immunities/genetic mutations to foods or other toxins outside of their original indigenous roots....

In this melting pot we call America, all of the bloodlines are getting way more mixed up, and it is not always the strong genes of parents that get passed on to offspring.... Maybe this would explain why there are certain diseases/illnesses/allergies/deficiencies that are popping up that may have never existed before...? Maybe they were already there before, but modern medicine just allows us to do tests now and learn/document about what is wrong.... Back in the days of medical ignorance, if there was an illness or bodily problem, and bed rest or "bleeding out" couldn't help, you were pretty much a goner~....! If a child was born of mutation or deficiency, it simply died and the bad genes were never passed on.... With modern medicine today, if a child is born with mutation or deficiency, it will most likely be able to be treated and kept alive to pass on the mutation - weather it be from bad genes, or mutations from exposure to toxic man-made pollution or nonfatal poizons....

Why do we refer to people's ethnicity as "race"...? Is it because it is one of the inbred "knowledges" that is handed down in time from a "God"...? Maybe the world's land is spread out and evenly dotted/planted with "tribes" of people to colonize a given area (like a bacteria).... Is it an experimental race to see which tribe/ethnicity would dominate the world in numbers...? If so, Columbus really screwed up the outcome with his little boat ride...!!! LoL I don't think that it could have been foreseen that we would have melded together and mutated to a level of intelligence that could lead to one person alone deciding to destroy the whole human race.... Or maybe it is not a conscious decision at all that will destroy our species.... Maybe "the end" will be the act of opening a subconscious door by an ignorant human that sucks us all in like a black hole, and marches our "race" right to a Judgment Day.... (and when I say "ignorant", I mean lack of knowing better...)

Ponder for a moment the end of Shulgin's explanation of a +4 experience....:

"It is a state of bliss, a participation mystique, a connectedness with both the interior and exterior universes, which has come about after the ingestion of a psychedelic drug, but which is not necessarily repeatable with a subsequent ingestion of that same drug. If a drug (or technique or process) were ever to be discovered which would consistently produce a plus four experience in all human beings, it is conceivable that it would signal the ultimate evolution, and perhaps the end of, the human experiment." - a la Alexander Shulgin's "Rating Scale"....
****Note - this is the last half of his explanation - not the whole thing....****

It is kinda~ interesting to me that he used the words "Human Experiment".... But then again, everything he does in his life and work would be seen as an experiment thru his eyes...! LoL I think Shulgin is trying to unlock different parts of his mind with psychedelics in his search for a chemical solution of a mental evolution (from what very little I know about him).... What if he is right, but off a little bit....? What if it just takes one certain oblivious person with the right gene make-up to use a certain chemical to open a door and start a chain reaction that cannot be stopped...? I am quite sure it would have to be a combination of chemicals to achieve this, a "God" would have HAD to put a combination lock on this secret - just to make it humorous...!!! LoL If we are all "one" and everything is indeed connected thru life, then we indeed would be in trouble as a species, as that opened door could lead straight to hell....!? I would definitely call that a bad trip....!!

It is strange to me to have these "deeper" thoughts running thru my head when I trip on shroomz.... Maybe just one of those triggers that make you search your imagination for answers....

ChoW~ again....!


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Heaven or Hell........? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3208678 - 10/03/04 01:36 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

***BUMP***

No more comments/questions....?  :frown:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Heaven or Hell........? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3208929 - 10/03/04 03:38 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

you pretty much totally changed the topic there with trip number too, if you want to talk about the evolution of man etc thats probably a seperate thread


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