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Anonymous

No Heaven, No Hell...
    #813390 - 08/12/02 06:41 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

For all who subscribe to a belief system that holds there is a reward and/or punishment in the 'afterlife' for certain behaviors, I have (another) hypothetical question...

If there was no reward and/or punishment in the 'afterlife,' what in your belief system would you still find compelling to follow and why? To put it another way, what benefits from your system's moral code and teachings can be realized in this life if there is no heaven and there is no hell?


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Registered: 05/28/02
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #813397 - 08/12/02 06:46 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

To put it another way, what benefits from your system's moral code and teachings can be realized in this life if there is no heaven and there is no hell?

Being happy. Having love. Finding peace. Seeing beauty.

Those things are reward enough for me, at least.


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Namaste.


Edited by RebelSteve33 (08/12/02 07:13 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #813419 - 08/12/02 07:02 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Afterlife.. you mean my next life or the time in between this one and the next?

I believe in Karma.. and knowledge.. heaven or hell is just a state of mind.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #813436 - 08/12/02 07:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

For all who subscribe to a belief system that holds there is a reward and/or punishment in the 'afterlife' for certain behaviors, I have (another) hypothetical question...

If there was no reward and/or punishment in the 'afterlife,' what in your belief system would you still find compelling to follow and why? To put it another way, what benefits from your system's moral code and teachings can be realized in this life if there is no heaven and there is no hell?


Heh, for some reason I expected more.

What would I do in this world if the afterlife did not exist? I would probably be like all the non believers in the world today, just as if the non believers knew of the current existing reality, they would be acting as believers do. But the game of life is in play, and your time on earth will seem like only a day, when you meet Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala on Judgement Day. Insh Allaah.

Waslaam.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Posts: 3,040
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #813438 - 08/12/02 07:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The existence of an afterlife has no bearing on my beliefs in this life. I would not change a thing if I found out there was no afterlife. Knowing God is its own reward.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Zahid]
    #813465 - 08/12/02 07:21 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

What would I do in this world if the afterlife did not exist? I would probably be like all the non believers in the world today,

Really? That's good news then.
I hate to break it to you, but THERE IS NO AFTERLIFE. It was created to keep people out of trouble. Prisons are expensive to maintain... fear tactics aren't.

Wait a second... maybe it's bad news...
It's impossible to prove a negative (Am I right, evolving?). Since the afterlife doesn't exist, I cannot prove it. I guess this means Zahid is going to be an unruly, unforgiving, evangelistic, dogmatic, blind zealot until the day he dies.

It's too bad the soul doesn't go on after death... I can only imagine what Zahid would be thinking when the lights go out and nothing ever happens... just blackness.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Zahid]
    #813469 - 08/12/02 07:23 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I would probably be like all the non believers in the world today, just as if the non believers knew of the current existing reality, they would be acting as believers do. But the game of life is in play, and your time on earth will seem like only a day, when you meet Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala on Judgement Day.
Come on Zahid, is your belief system and it's moral code really that weak that you would chuck it all if there was no reward and punishment? Can you answer the questions without referring to judgement by a mythological being? This is a mental and moral exercise, try to play along.

I'll ask again. What in your belief system would you still find compelling to follow and why? What benefits from your system's moral code and teachings can be realized in this life if there is no heaven and there is no hell?


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Sclorch]
    #813471 - 08/12/02 07:23 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Don't you think it would be funny if you died and then it didn't go black? Instead..you just kept on thinking. Ha, that would be a knee slapper, that.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Sclorch]
    #813479 - 08/12/02 07:26 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Since the afterlife does exist, I cannot prove it.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #813493 - 08/12/02 07:31 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Don't you think it would be funny if you died and then it didn't go black? Instead..you just kept on thinking. Ha, that would be a knee slapper, that.

Shroomism (only)-
Do I NEED to believe in the afterlife to experience it (if there is one)?
I think you would say no.

Would my belief in THAT kind of an afterlife (non-religious) affect my morals in life?
I think we would both say no.

Don't take it personally if I don't believe in an afterlife. If I had to choose which afterlife I'd believe in... it would be similar to what you believe in (no dogma, no guilt-trips... no "judgement", right?). If you've noticed, I don't knock any non-dogmatic belief in the afterlife. You should take that into consideration in the future.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Zahid]
    #813497 - 08/12/02 07:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Since the afterlife does exist, I cannot prove it.

Yet you shove it down our throats every chance you get...
It's called fear of the unknown. Get over it.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Sclorch]
    #813502 - 08/12/02 07:36 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Don't take offense, I was merely trying to add a contrast to the statement you made: It's too bad the soul doesn't go on after death... I can only imagine what Zahid would be thinking when the lights go out and nothing ever happens... just blackness.

Do I NEED to believe in the afterlife to experience it (if there is one)?


No.

Would my belief in THAT kind of an afterlife (non-religious) affect my morals in life?


Perhaps.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #813509 - 08/12/02 07:39 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'll ask again. What in your belief system would you still find compelling to follow and why? What benefits from your system's moral code and teachings can be realized in this life if there is no heaven and there is no hell?

I really wouldn't know because the non existence of heaven and hell is not a reality. What disbelievers don't understand about faith is that it isn't blind, they only think it, but they don't have a slight idea what a person of faith experiences as a result of surrendering to God.

When I embraced Islam, my experiences came as alien and strange to me since I never experienced such a reality before. I know God exists, I experienced Him.

I might as well be asking you what you would do in this life if you had knowledge of God's existence. Simple answer, you would obey, fear, and love Him. Only an idiot would reject God after recieving revelation from Him.

It's not hard to avoid the Fire.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #813514 - 08/12/02 07:41 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Would my belief in THAT kind of an afterlife (non-religious) affect my morals in life?
Perhaps.

Pray tell, how?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #813530 - 08/12/02 07:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Perhaps if your morals and actions are contingent on a belief in an after life, you have not learned the lessons of existence.


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Sclorch]
    #813536 - 08/12/02 07:48 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Let's say one believed in no afterlife, and that they could do whatever they wanted to anyone they wanted whenever they wanted. So they just go off slaying people and bashing kittens against trees just because they can. Then they die and maybe learn that their actions did effect them and their environment. Of course if it all went black then they wouldn't realize any of it, but no one gets off that easy.

So if this same person believed in Karma and what comes around goes around or some type of afterlife where you are recognized for good and loving intentions, would they go around slaying people and smashing kittens against trees? Probably not.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Zahid]
    #813537 - 08/12/02 07:48 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I might as well be asking you what you would do in this life if you had knowledge of God's existence. Simple answer, you would obey, fear, and love Him. Only an idiot would reject God after recieving revelation from Him.

Call me an idiot then. I will not live my life in fear.
If there is a God and if that God is such a narcissistic egotist, then I have no respect for him. I am a moral man. I need no guide to show me the way. If what I do coincides with what "obeying" is, that's fine, but "God" should know that the only thing I follow is my heart.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Zahid]
    #813539 - 08/12/02 07:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'm still hung up on that concept of no afterlibe but continued existance.. what if when your body ceases to function, your mind does not? Or hell, here's another concept. What if the soul gets recycled? Like what if the "soul" is little more than the spark of life that carries the most basic essance of what we are, and the physical self that develops is a reflection of the characteristics of that soul that have been forged by each existance?

Or better still, what if it were late and I were tired and rambling?


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Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #813548 - 08/12/02 07:53 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Let's say one believed in no afterlife, and that they could do whatever they wanted to anyone they wanted whenever they wanted.(The freedom to do wrong does not force one to act. -Sclorch)So they just go off slaying people and bashing kittens against trees just because they can. Then they die and maybe learn that their actions did effect them and their environment. Of course if it all went black then they wouldn't realize any of it, but no one gets off that easy.

So if this same person believed in Karma and what comes around goes around or some type of afterlife where you are recognized for good and loving intentions, would they go around slaying people and smashing kittens against trees? Probably not.


So you're saying that a belief in the afterlife is a dogmatic control tactic?
That's how it reads.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #813561 - 08/12/02 07:57 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Here is an article I found last year that may at first seem tangential to the question raised by Evolving. I assure you it is not.

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A guided missile corrects its trajectory as it flies, homing in, say, on the heat of a jet plane's exhaust. A great improvement on a simple ballistic shell, it still cannot discriminate particular targets. It could not zero in on a designated New York skyscraper if launched from as far away as Boston. That is precisely what a modern "smart missile" can do. Computer miniaturisation has advanced to the point where one of today's smart missiles could be programmed with an image of the Manhattan skyline together with instructions to home in on the North Tower of the World Trade Center. Smart missiles of this sophistication are possessed by the United States, as we learned in the Gulf War, but they are economically beyond ordinary terrorists and scientifically beyond theocratic governments. Might there be a cheaper and easier alternative?

In the Second World War, before electronics became cheap and miniature, the psychologist B. F. Skinner did some research on pigeon-guided missiles. The pigeon was to sit in a tiny cockpit, having previously been trained to peck keys in such a way as to keep a designated target in the centre of a screen. In the missile, the target would be for real. The principle worked, although it was never put into practice by the US authorities. Even factoring in the costs of training them, pigeons are cheaper and lighter than computers of comparable effectiveness. Their feats in Skinner boxes suggest that a pigeon, after a regimen of training with color slides, really could guide a missile to a distinctive landmark at the southern end of Manhattan Island.

Pigeons may be cheap and disposable as on-board guidance systems, but there's no escaping the cost of the missile itself. And no such missile large enough to do much damage could penetrate United States airspace without being intercepted. What is needed is a missile that is not recognized for what it is until too late. Something like a large civilian airliner, carrying the innocuous markings of a well-known carrier and a great deal of fuel. That's the easy part. But how do we smuggle on board the necessary guidance system? You can hardly expect the pilots to surrender the left hand seat to a pigeon or a computer.

How about using humans as on-board guidance systems, instead of pigeons? Humans are at least as numerous as pigeons, their brains are not significantly costlier than pigeon brains, and for many tasks they are actually superior. Humans have a proven track record in taking over planes by the use of threats, which work because the legitimate pilots value their own lives and those of their passengers. The natural assumption that the hijacker ultimately values his own life too, and will act rationally to preserve it, leads air crews and ground staff to make calculated decisions that would not work with guidance modules lacking a sense of self-preservation. If your plane is being hijacked by an armed man who, though prepared to take risks, presumably wants to go on living, there is room for bargaining. A rational pilot complies with the hijacker's wishes, gets the plane down on the ground, has hot food sent in for the passengers, and leaves the negotiations to people trained to negotiate.

The problem with the human guidance system is precisely this. Unlike the pigeon version, it knows that a successful mission culminates in its own destruction. Could we develop a biological guidance system with the compliance and dispensability of a pigeon but with a man's resourcefulness and ability to infiltrate plausibly? What we need, in a nutshell, is a human who doesn't mind being blown up. He'd make the perfect on-board guidance system. But suicide-enthusiasts are hard to find. Even terminal cancer patients might lose their nerve when the crash was actually looming.

Could we get some otherwise normal humans and somehow persuade them that they are not going to die as a consequence of flying a plane smack into a skyscraper. If only! Nobody is that stupid, but how about this. It's a long shot, but it just might work. Given that they are certainly going to die, couldn't we sucker them into believing that they are going to come to life again afterwards? Don't be daft! No, listen, it might work. Offer them a fast track to a Great Oasis in the Sky, cooled by everlasting fountains. Harps and wings wouldn't appeal to the sort of young men we need, so tell them there's a special martyr's reward of 72 virgin brides, guaranteed eager and exclusive. Would they fall for it? Yes, testosterone-sodden young men might go for 72 private virgins in the next world.

It's a tall story, but worth a try. You'd have to get them young, though. Feed them a complete and self-consistent background mythology, to make the big lie sound plausible when it comes. Give them a holy book and make them learn it by heart. Do you know, I really think it might work. As luck would have it, we have just the thing to hand: a ready-made system of mind-control which has been honed over centuries, handed down through generations. Millions of people have been brought up in it. It is called religion and, for reasons which one day we may understand, most people fall for it (nowhere more so, incidentally, though the irony passes unnoticed, than America itself). Now all we need is to round up a few of these faith-heads and give them flying lessons.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Facetious? Trivialising an unspeakable evil? That is the exact opposite of my intention, which is deadly serious and prompted by deep grief and fierce anger. I am trying to call attention to the elephant in the room that everybody is too polite - or too devout - to notice: religion, and specifically the devaluing effect that religion has on human life. I don't mean devaluing the life of others (though it can do that too), but devaluing one's own life. Religion teaches the dangerous nonsense that death is not the end.

If death is final, a rational agent can be expected to value his life highly and be reluctant to risk it. This makes the world a safer place, just as a plane is safer if its hijacker wants to survive. At the other extreme, if a significant number of people convince themselves, or are convinced by their priests, that a martyr's death is equivalent to pressing the hyperspace button and zooming through a wormhole to another universe, it can make the world a very dangerous place. Especially if they also believe that that other universe is a paradisical escape from the tribulations of the real world. Top it off with sincerely believed sexual promises -ludicrous and degrading to women though they are- and is it any wonder that na?ve and frustrated young men are clamoring to be selected for suicide missions?

There is no doubt that the afterlife-obsessed suicidal brain really is a weapon of immense power and danger. It is comparable to a smart missile, and its guidance system is in many respects superior to the most sophisticated electronic brain that money can buy. Yet to a cynical government, organization, or priesthood, it is very very cheap.

Our leaders have described the recent atrocity with the customary clich?: mindless cowardice. 'Mindless' may be a suitable word for the vandalizing of a telephone booth. It is not helpful for understanding what hit New York on September 11th. Those people were not mindless and they were certainly not cowards. On the contrary, they had sufficiently effective minds braced with an insane courage, and it would pay us mightily to understand where that courage came from. It came from religion. Religion is also, of course, the underlying source of the divisiveness in the Middle East which motivated the use of this deadly weapon in the first place. But that is another story and not my concern here. My concern here is with the weapon itself. To fill a world with religion, or religions of the Abrahamic kind, is like littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are used.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Richard Dawkins is the Charles Simonyi Professor of Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University and the author of numerous bestselling books about science and evolution. He is a regular columnist in Free Inquiry magazine. This article comes from the upcoming Winter 2001-2 issue of Free Inquiry, published by the Council for Secular Humanism.


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Zahid]
    #813588 - 08/12/02 08:12 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I really wouldn't know because the non existence of heaven and hell is not a reality. What disbelievers don't understand about faith is that it isn't blind, they only think it, but they don't have a slight idea what a person of faith experiences as a result of surrendering to God.

Yoo hoo... Earth to Zahid. Attention: This is a mental and moral exercise, try to play along. I am asking hypothetical questions. Do you know what hypothetical means? These are not questions about the existence of god, these are questions about what you could gain from the teachings and moral code of your belief system even if there was no heaven or hell. What practical benefits are available without the reward/punishment system which is said to await you after you die?

I'll ask again. What in your belief system would you still find compelling to follow and why? What benefits from your system's moral code and teachings can be realized in this life if there is no heaven and there is no hell? Isn't there anything worthy of keeping from your belief system if you remove the spankings and the candy?


Edited by Evolving (08/13/02 05:54 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Sclorch]
    #813597 - 08/12/02 08:15 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'm saying a belief in an afterlife could be used as a moral guideline for life. Certainly there does exist a level of dogmatic control tactics through the use of fear in the afterlife as can be witnessed by the Christian idealogy of hell
For the record.. I don't agree with that standpoint.

I don't claim any religion, however I do embrace one of the ideals of Paganism, which is the law of free will. If ye harm none, do as thou will
Or... A human is a sentient and sovereign being with unlimited free will, as long as that free will does not interfere with that of another's, then more power to you.

Basically I don't care if someone believes in an afterlife or not. We'll know when we die. No one can say for certain until they die. Some people remember dying before. Matter cannot be destroyed only converted to energy and vice versa.

The same could be said for consciousness. I sleep, and then wake up. Then I do it again...a cycle it is. I exist without use of the body when I sleep.

Metamorphose Evolutionary




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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #813679 - 08/12/02 08:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

i'll tell you what my religious belief system holds for me if there is no afterlife.
ecstasy.
it makes my life more beautiful...it makes my time more meaningful. it helps me to find enlightment where none exists. i go into religious rapturs sometimes that are like no drug or experience anyone else can conjure. and that is in this life. so what if there is no after life? i don't care. this one has been made so much better.
and rastafary teaches that this is heaven for a true rastafari...well, i'm catholic and rastafari....the religions mix quite well.
peace.


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Peace and Love to all!


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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #814053 - 08/13/02 04:26 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Don't you think it would be funny if you died and then it didn't go black? Instead..you just kept on thinking. Ha, that would be a knee slapper, that.




hahahaha.. or even better! that he realized that the thoughts he has are creating his experience, and therefore experiences everything he thinks, just like here on earth, but INMEDIATELY


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #814063 - 08/13/02 04:41 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Don't you think it would be funny if you died and then it didn't go black? Instead..you just kept on thinking. Ha, that would be a knee slapper, that.

Until you realized that you were stuck in a coffin and the claustrophobia set in as you tried to claw through the oak casket...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #814225 - 08/13/02 07:05 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Physical body? Pfft


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Offlinepostalboy
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Zahid]
    #814235 - 08/13/02 07:07 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I might as well be asking you what you would do in this life if you had knowledge of God's existence. Simple answer, you would obey, fear, and love Him. Only an idiot would reject God after recieving revelation from

Ok i like this question better. The answer is simple: (Ready for this?? )

I would rape, steal, kill and pillage, plunder, look down on others, KNOW that I and only I am correct, start a moronic TV show called the 600 club, wipe my ass with the bible and the Quran and all the other holy books, Fuck little boys in the ass and then have the audacity to ask their parents for money so I could buy a new solid gold cross for my church, bomb this random country, lie to that country, train islamic terrorists to fight the russians and then 15 years later ask the russians for help to kill those same terrorists that we trained, outlaw drugs which are safe and legalize deady drugs like nicotine and alcohol, outlaw nudity but glorify violence, allow contractors to destroy wild life in the pursuit of more money and shopping malls, be a hypocrite in every way imaginable, and finally I would beg for forgiveness and go to heaven with all of the other assholes.

See a simple answer. In short I would be like the rest of those scumbag nutlickers who follow their religion and close their minds to ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING else.

So is that the correct answer?

Postalboy

(EDIT: Shroomism) Try to be nice
HAVE A NICE DAY!


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"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


Edited by Shroomism (08/13/02 11:39 AM)


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #814297 - 08/13/02 07:44 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

If there was no reward and/or punishment in the 'afterlife,' what in your belief system would you still find compelling to follow and why? To put it another way, what benefits from your system's moral code and teachings can be realized in this life if there is no heaven and there is no hell?




Cristian Rationalism . I think they have simple and constructive answers, no hell, no heaven, just free will on this life and full enlightment in between among the genesis of wisdom of the universe. They teach you that all you have to do in this life is to have conduct, i find them the most understandable and rational modern religious belief.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: postalboy]
    #814340 - 08/13/02 08:03 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

1. Show respect for your fellow Shroomerites, their ideas and beliefs. Constructive criticism and debate is of course, encouraged. But flaming another member for their ideas/beliefs or implying attacks wlll not be tolerated. If something is considered to be unnacceptable, it will be edited. I should not need to elaborate any further on this. Just use some common sense when posting, show respect and all will be well.



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Peace and Love to all!


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Offlinepostalboy
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: postalboy]
    #814563 - 08/13/02 09:56 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

*SIGH*

Can't have any fun here...


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"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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Offlinetps
ganja ghanstah
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Phred]
    #814636 - 08/13/02 10:38 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think that you just die. plain and simple. no words can describe what happens except for death. Everything just stops. Then again, there are those people who die for a couple of seconds in a hospital and are revived moments later. They usually talk about seeing a 'light' of some sort. But couldnt that light be the emergency room heh.
I dont know, and i dont know to know about heaven/hell/death/life I want to enjoy what i have now, and what will happen, will happen, wether i want it to or not.


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: postalboy]
    #814743 - 08/13/02 11:34 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

lol that was a super post! Although you made your point very extremely, it was still an entertaining read


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #814813 - 08/13/02 12:03 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I have a question.. Why do "skeptics" think it more likely that there isn't an afterlife? I can undertand Sclorch's non dogmatic belief system...but with most people it just seems to be a case of "get real man..there is no such thing as an afterlife"

Isn't it just as likely that there is an afterlife?

It seems very closed minded to dismiss the entire possibility, when there is no proof that there isn't one ..as much as there is no proof that there is.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Revelation]
    #815364 - 08/13/02 04:26 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Facts of what happens when you die:

1. Your body decomposes. Most of us partially define ourselves by our body. I am handsome, ugly, fat, young, old, tall short, blonde, or whatever. That is forever gone.

2. Your memories, which reside in your brain, disintegrate along with all skills and knowledge acquired.

3. Your relationships are no more. You are no longer father, brother, son, lover, artist, musician, shroomer.

So the "you" as you define yourself today is completely obliterated.


Why do "skeptics" think it more likely that there isn't an afterlife? Isn't it just as likely that there is an afterlife?
It is not about mathematical probability like flipping a coin.

It seems very closed minded to dismiss the entire possibility,
Is it close-minded to think that there is NOT a gorgeous naked woman holding my million dollar lottery winnings standing outside my door right now? Does that sound silly and preposterous? Well eternal bliss sounds even more so.

If there is zero proof, evidence or any sort of pointer to a continued existence, why should one entertain the possibility at all? What "facts" are there to consider? If you were born and raised alone on the proverbial desert island with no books, what would lead you to believe in such an idea?

There are only two reasons that I know of.

1. An idea borrowed from others.

2. A self-created story to quell a deep-seated fear of oblivion.

Neither of those is sufficient to put any credence into the idea.




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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #815748 - 08/13/02 07:17 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Without heaven and hell? I would be a firm believer in democracy, that's for sure.


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Offlinetps
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Zahid]
    #815806 - 08/13/02 07:40 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

3. Your relationships are no more. You are no longer father, brother, son, lover, artist, musician, shroomer.




well there are always those darn necrophiliacs. damn them to hell! if it exists anyways.


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: tps]
    #816007 - 08/13/02 08:51 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

well there are always those darn necrophiliacs. damn them to hell! if it exists anyways


Funny thing about necrophillia - it's talked about all the time (or in the very least, enough for a large majority of the population to know what the term means) but rarely is ever an actual case recorded. I've always kind of wondered if it was one of those things that was so damn taboo that people that actually go through with it don't tell another soul, or if it's just another one of those things that people talk about a lot but never actually do (like paying taxes)


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #816326 - 08/13/02 11:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

make peace with yourself, and heaven and earth make peace with you. take pains to enter your innermost chamber, and you will see the chamber of heaven, for they are one and the same, and in entering one you behold them both. the stairway to the kingdom is within you, secret in your soul. cast off the burden of sin and you will find within you the upward path that will make your ascent possible.
this chamber is another name for eternal life. it is also called the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of god, or quite simply, christ. to live in christ is to live in eternal life.
we are all one.
peace.


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Peace and Love to all!


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Zahid]
    #817856 - 08/15/02 01:12 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You seem to have a love affair with evasion as well as Islam. Allow me to present a brief parable in an effort to prod you to think...

Four men passed through their lives. The first man did good because his religion promised him eternal damnation if he did wrong. The second man did good because his religion promised him everlasting happiness. The third man promised to do good if elected to political office, once elected he used his position to force others to pay for his good works which he performed in order to stay in office. The fourth man did good because he felt that it was good.

Which of these four is really the good one?


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OfflineInsomniac
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #817930 - 08/15/02 01:36 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

So the "you" as you define yourself today is completely obliterated.

Agreed. Do you think it's possible though that there is another sort of "you" that does not get much attention, or maybe forgotten about?

For example, we all know as a baby your memories, relationships, and definitions of yourself had not yet been developed. So at that point was there still a "you" that existed? Not necessarily a sense of self-awareness but just an awareness?


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Insomniac]
    #818068 - 08/15/02 02:29 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Precisely...what swami is talking about is the ego.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Insomniac]
    #818260 - 08/15/02 03:50 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Agreed. Do you think it's possible though that there is another sort of "you" that does not get much attention, or maybe forgotten about?

It is possible, but I see no evidence for a soul or whatever terminology you choose to use. What would lead you to believe in such a thing except for the words of others?



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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Revelation]
    #818263 - 08/15/02 03:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Precisely...what swami is talking about is the ego.

One's body is not the ego.



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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #818266 - 08/15/02 03:55 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The heart cave.


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Revelation]
    #818442 - 08/15/02 05:40 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

..is what remains.



And I totally believe this, because I have felt it, and it?s just intuitively valid. And that?s what it comes down to.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Revelation]
    #818453 - 08/15/02 05:46 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Has no one's feelings and intuition ever been mistaken?

How can a feeling, which is a biochemical reaction of a living being, point towards something after death?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #818546 - 08/15/02 06:25 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Facts of what happens when you die:

1. Your body decomposes. Most of us partially define ourselves by our body. I am handsome, ugly, fat, young, old, tall short, blonde, or whatever. That is forever gone.


Unknown. We do not know this with certitude.

2. Your memories, which reside in your brain, disintegrate along with all skills and knowledge acquired.

We definitely do not know that the brain equates with the mind.

3. Your relationships are no more. You are no longer father, brother, son, lover, artist, musician, shroomer.

The relationships are still intact because they are construed on both sides of life. When my mother died I did not stop being her son.

So the "you" as you define yourself today is completely obliterated.

Unknown. There are philosophical postulates that lead in another direction.

Is it close-minded to think that there is NOT a gorgeous naked woman holding my million dollar lottery winnings standing outside my door right now? Does that sound silly and preposterous? Well eternal bliss sounds even more so.

Weak analogy and unfounded personal opinion.

If there is zero proof, evidence or any sort of pointer to a continued existence, why should one entertain the possibility at all?

There are proofs and evidence to be had in the area of philosophy. This is not an area where only empirical evidence is allowed.

There are only two reasons that I know of.

1. An idea borrowed from others.

2. A self-created story to quell a deep-seated fear of oblivion.

Neither of those is sufficient to put any credence into the idea.


As you said, "that I know of". That leaves a lot of room for inquiry, wouldn't you say?

Cheers,




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InvisibleSwami
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #818645 - 08/15/02 06:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Unknown. We do not know this with certitude.
I suggest digging up a cadaver and be certain.

We definitely do not know that the brain equates with the mind.
Which is not what I said. The brain is hardware, the mind is software. However, alzheimers and head trauma victims definitely lose memory and brain function. Partial deterioration equals partial loss; total deterioration equals total loss.

When my mother died I did not stop being her son.
In semantics only. Where is the mother to relate to? When my house burns down, it is no longer my house; just a place where I used to live. The relationship is in a memory that too will decay over time.

Unknown. There are philosophical postulates that lead in another direction.
Not unknown. Your body will decompose; you will no longer work at XZY Corporation and live on Main St and make love to your wife and post on the shroomery and enjoy a nice sunset after smoking some spliff...

Weak analogy and unfounded personal opinion.
Agreed that it is weak, but no more weak or unfounded than the eternal life hypothesis which was my point.

There are proofs and evidence to be had in the area of philosophy. This is not an area where only empirical evidence is allowed.
Care to share something beyond semantic wrestling?

That leaves a lot of room for inquiry, wouldn't you say?
I wouldn't say so, no. I was leaving the door ajar, but apparently the best anyone can do is ask questions rather than point to any indicators for holding such an unsubstantiated belief.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #818751 - 08/15/02 07:29 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Good Post! I only say that because:

1. You have repeatedly stated that no one says that when they disagree and I want to be contrary.

2. I have had a bud light and am partially drunk.

Nice to see you posting btw.

On with the show:

I suggest digging up a cadaver and be certain.

Your proposition omits any philosophical inquiry into the subject and admits empirical evidence. As I said, there is other evidence available.

Which is not what I said. The brain is hardware, the mind is software. However, alzheimers and head trauma victims definitely lose memory and brain function. Partial deterioration equals partial loss; total deterioration equals total loss.

You may be quite good at telling us what you did not say but your post definitely gives the illusion that you think that the mind and the brain are equal in the fact that when the brain no longer functions the mind doesn't either. This analogy is a better one but it is not conclusive evidence that the mind and the brain are the same thing.

In semantics only. Where is the mother to relate to? When my house burns down, it is no longer my house; just a place where I used to live. The relationship is in a memory that too will decay over time.

Not quite. To say that it is only a matter of semantics is to say what? The relationship of a parent to a child is an eternal relationship because one is derived from the other. This analogy is also weak. Memory has little to do with the fact, does it?

Not unknown. Your body will decompose; you will no longer work at XZY Corporation and live on Main St and make love to your wife and post on the shroomery and enjoy a nice sunset after smoking some spliff...

Unknown. You are conflating empirical evidence with knowledge. There are other types of knowledge.

Agreed that it is weak, but no more weak or unfounded than the eternal life hypothesis which was my point.

And as I said that is your personal opinion which is not founded on anything other than speculation. I base my opinions on a little more than that.


Care to share something beyond semantic wrestling?

Yes, I would. These discussions are generally unfruitful because the disputants engage in something other than philosophical inquiry. I have several good ideas that lead me to think that there is an existence beyond the grave and I entend to start threads on them as soon as I have enough loyal fans who will swallow everything I say wholesale.

I would like to start the threads within the next few weeks.


I wouldn't say so, no. I was leaving the door ajar, but apparently the best anyone can do is ask questions rather than point to any indicators for holding such an unsubstantiated belief.

Ah the veritable Tom Bodett of spirituality, "We'll leave the light on for ya."

Again, these are but your unsubstantiated opinions based on your experience and science, or so it would seem.

Again, nice to see you posting!


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Phred]
    #826853 - 08/18/02 10:50 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Wow, I wen't ahead and finished reading this whole post, and man, Zahid I am really sorry your head is that far up your ass.


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #827164 - 08/19/02 03:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

swami... you know what i find very sad about your posts... you judge other people for thinking that they are their body (im fat, ugly, handsome, tall, etc) and are oh! so sure that you are right when you think that a human beeing is actually his own mind... but i must say both views are wrong... we are not only NOT OUR BODY (merely a tool), we are also NOT OUR MIND (a beautiful tool, that can play many tricks on us if we let it take control)... WE ARE OUR SOUL... therefore eternal creative beeings... the body is lost, yes... the mind is lost yes... but that in no way means our memories are lost... everything is stored in the soul... EVERYTHING... thats why you have deja' vu ... thats why for instance, i can remember some of my past lifes... i am in no way saying our body and mind don?t serve us... i value my body, as well as my mind for what i can do with them... but when it comes to BEEING, i don?t need any of them... always remember that we are a holy trinity... body, mind and soul...
the reason your posts make me sad is that they give me the impression that you don?t believe in a soul... only in the mind... and thats serious...
so let me ask you a question... do you believe in love? and i don?t mean a casual fling or a 2 month relationship... i mean complete and inconditional love like the one of a mother for its child... (like the one of god for us, but since you don?t believe in god, leave that out)... and i know you?ll probably say that not every mother loves his child inconditionally, and i know it?s true... but most of them do...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: In(di)go]
    #827201 - 08/19/02 04:20 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

so let me ask you a question... do you believe in love?
I did and it has nearly destroyed me. In fact, I have never recovered.

and i don?t mean a casual fling or a 2 month relationship... i mean complete and inconditional love like the one of a mother for its child...
Funny you should say that. I dated a devout Christian woman for 5 years. I am quite fit and energetic and have usually dated woman much younger than I. A is 7 years older than me (and over 20 years older than my previous girlfriend!) and I would have given my life for her, I loved her that much.

I was with her the night her daughter died. The funeral was the most draining experience of my life, after which A hardly ever spoke to me again. I waited for 3 years trying to get resolution with A. Letters, phone calls, and prayers all went unanswered.

Finally I literally said "Fuck it!" I banged any chick I could after years of celibacy. Lined 'em up in a row. Of course it didn't help. Tried to get romantic and care for someone again, I just couldn't get any spiritual / emotional connection. Now I am forever stuck in limbo - unable to go back, unable to move forward.

Ain't love grand?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #827365 - 08/19/02 07:00 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I did and it has nearly destroyed me. In fact, I have never recovered

Jesus swami, that sounds like a tough break. So mushrooms didn't work out, love didn't work out. Is this why you turned to science?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #827377 - 08/19/02 07:13 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Mr Mush, there's a lot of physicists coming to the conclusion that the soul is a scientifically provable fact.

This is just one of the new books, pretty good too...

In a brilliant integration of science, spirituality, and consciousness on par with such forward-thinking classics as Taking the Quantum Leap, The Tao of Physics, and The Dancing Wu Li Masters, physicist and author Dr. Amit Goswami uses quantum physics to describe mystical concepts such as the immortality of the soul, reincarnation, and the afterlife. Dr. Goswami describes consciousness as more than an abstract concept — it is a reality that is primary and fundamental to science, and is his starting point for all scientific conduct. In Physics of the Soul, he integrates descriptions from The Tibetan Book of the Dead with his knowledge of quantum physics and concludes that reincarnational memory — past lives and our access to them — is an absolute, scientifically provable truth.



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #827381 - 08/19/02 07:16 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Ah the veritable Tom Bodett of spirituality, "We'll leave the light on for ya."

LOL!


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMahakala
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #827430 - 08/19/02 07:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I know I'm late coming into this one, but in reply to the original post.
Hypothetically speaking if Karma did not follow us and shape our next existence. Then yes there would still be a reason to follow this " religion". Due to the fact that all beings desire happiness, all beings wish to abstain from suffering. But then again Buddhism isn't really a religion in it's core, it is not based on belief or faith, it is a system of thought more like one of the earliest forms of Psychology. I suppose thats why some people incorporate it into thier own religions such as Jewish_Buddhists Etc.
But alas having looked at the way most religions are taught today and the way they are translated the behavior of a follower is based on the belief of an after life. Take away the heaven or the hell, and it's like taking the crutches from a cripple,only the strong of mind will be able to stand and the rest will most likely faulter. The idea of heaven or hell is just one more thing for ego to grasp onto.


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #827505 - 08/19/02 08:37 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I did and it has nearly destroyed me. In fact, I have never recovered.

+ the rest of the post


What's this lump in my throat? It feels terrible.





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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Xlea321]
    #827716 - 08/19/02 10:40 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

there's a lot of physicists coming to the conclusion that the soul is a scientifically provable fact

This is just rhetoric without evidence.
Don't link "Dancing Wu Li Masters" with such ideas. There is NOTHING in Zukav's book that alludes to anything like that. He only points out that physics can be viewed in an eastern manner.


In Physics of the Soul, he integrates descriptions from The Tibetan Book of the Dead with his knowledge of quantum physics and concludes that reincarnational memory past lives and our access to them is an absolute, scientifically provable truth.
So, he can provide us with evidence. Cool. Where is it?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineLiquidSmoke
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Sclorch]
    #827799 - 08/19/02 11:21 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Heh,


I just want to point out one thing.


This entire "science vs. religion" thing makes no sense at all because they ask two completely different questions about our existence.



Science answers the "how".


Religion answers the "why".





People think existence ITSELF is the strongest evidence of creationism. Unless you're expecting a big hand to come out of the clouds like in all those TV and movie portrayals of God.

Oh yeah, one more thing for thought. Never believe science.


Centuries ago everyone KNEW the Earth was flat.

everyone KNEW everything revolved the Earth.

everyone KNEW leaches could cure anything. All because scientists (physicists included) told us so.


You can say we have more technology now and that our theories are more credible than in the past. But once again, you can't ever determine when we'll hit the plateau of true knowloedge. Everything mentioned in those writings are THEORY BASED. Just like in the past.


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"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #827866 - 08/19/02 11:42 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Give love another chance Swami. It can be the most wonderful thing.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Sclorch]
    #828000 - 08/19/02 12:35 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

So, he can provide us with evidence. Cool. Where is it?

er....in the book?

It's called "Physics of the soul". And i think Goswami knows a little more about science than you.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Xlea321]
    #828099 - 08/19/02 01:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I meant empirical (read experimental) evidence.

Tell me how I can find this evidence NOW. I'm not going to run all over the world trying to find a copy of some obscure book that proves the existence of the afterlife.

Do me a favor and quote the ENTIRE proof. Right here. Right now.


And i think Goswami knows a little more about science than you.
Get over your pettiness. It's really fucking annoying to see someone with a decent chunk of gray matter, such as yourself, resorting to personal attacks (especially shitty personal attacks... Science isn't exactly foreign to me).


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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
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Posts: 8,157
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #828121 - 08/19/02 01:50 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

i think the reason you never recovered is because you never gave love a second chance... are you happier now than when you allowed yourself to love?

always remember that love gives freedom and doesn?t take it away... unconditional love is there for someone who doesn?t even have to love you back... thats the way god loves us...

In reply to:

Letters, phone calls, and prayers all went unanswered.




are you trying to say that you believed in god before all this happened? are you trying to say that you used to pray? and you are blaming god and love (actually the same thing) on this one girl?

listen, i am really sorry for what happened to you... but you need to let go... give yourself another chance... love yourself and love other people... love life itself...


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Edited by Lozt Soul (08/19/02 01:52 PM)


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OfflineInsomniac
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Registered: 03/17/02
Posts: 35
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #828467 - 08/19/02 04:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It is possible, but I see no evidence for a soul or whatever terminology you choose to use. What would lead you to believe in such a thing except for the words of others?

Well I don't wholeheartedly believe in "such a thing" but I'm pretty sure I gave an example in my last post. A baby does not possess any of the characteristics that you determined are extinguished upon death but it still realizes that something is going on, does it not?


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: In(di)go]
    #828549 - 08/19/02 05:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I appreciate your good intentions but I think that Swami needs love instead of platitudes right now. Perhaps that is your way of showing that you care but not everyone takes such remarks that way.

I think empathy is better taken when it evidences itself by showing kindness without advice, unless it is asked for, and it wasn't.

I am reminded of a therapist I had once. His solution to everything was: Cheer up.

It didn't help.

Cheers,


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Sclorch]
    #828996 - 08/19/02 08:51 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Do me a favor and quote the ENTIRE proof. Right here. Right now.

You mean type out a 500 page book? Sorry man, i don't have the time.

There's plenty of other books on this subject - do a search at amazon and pick one up.


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #829293 - 08/20/02 12:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

i know what you are trying to say... and i agree completely that swami needs love, and not philosophical advice... but my point is how can he experience what he needs if he does not believe in it?


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: In(di)go]
    #829599 - 08/20/02 07:33 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Perhaps the experience can come first and then the belief. I did not believe in love until somebody loved me. When I got it, really got it, and they proved beyond any doubt, I knew that love was real. Until then it was just a fairy tale for grown-ups. And through her love I felt that maybe God existed and maybe God cared. At the time God was just another way to mock my pain. Even after the loving I still had a long way to go before I came to the conclusion that God could be real. I am, without a doubt, a hard customer.

"God is a concept by which we measure, our pain."

JWL

Cheers,


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Xlea321]
    #829847 - 08/20/02 09:33 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If it takes 500 pages to prove something... it's probably not proof, it's rhetoric.


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Offlinejim_dewit
A pound of whichweighs...

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 33
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Sclorch]
    #832319 - 08/21/02 09:06 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If I had to pick one book as my "bible", (which is an unwise thing to do, but regardless...)

It would be Dancing Wu Li Masters... The first time I read it, I was about 15, it has had a huge impact on how I percieve things.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Sclorch]
    #832372 - 08/21/02 09:32 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If it takes 500 pages to prove something... it's probably not proof, it's rhetoric.

Well there's only one sure way to find out isn't there?


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