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InvisibleRevelation

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Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Insomniac]
    #818068 - 08/15/02 02:29 PM (20 years, 2 days ago)

Precisely...what swami is talking about is the ego.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Insomniac]
    #818260 - 08/15/02 03:50 PM (20 years, 2 days ago)

Agreed. Do you think it's possible though that there is another sort of "you" that does not get much attention, or maybe forgotten about?

It is possible, but I see no evidence for a soul or whatever terminology you choose to use. What would lead you to believe in such a thing except for the words of others?



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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Revelation]
    #818263 - 08/15/02 03:52 PM (20 years, 2 days ago)

Precisely...what swami is talking about is the ego.

One's body is not the ego.



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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleRevelation

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Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #818266 - 08/15/02 03:55 PM (20 years, 2 days ago)

The heart cave.


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Revelation]
    #818442 - 08/15/02 05:40 PM (20 years, 2 days ago)

..is what remains.



And I totally believe this, because I have felt it, and it?s just intuitively valid. And that?s what it comes down to.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Revelation]
    #818453 - 08/15/02 05:46 PM (20 years, 2 days ago)

Has no one's feelings and intuition ever been mistaken?

How can a feeling, which is a biochemical reaction of a living being, point towards something after death?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #818546 - 08/15/02 06:25 PM (20 years, 2 days ago)

Facts of what happens when you die:

1. Your body decomposes. Most of us partially define ourselves by our body. I am handsome, ugly, fat, young, old, tall short, blonde, or whatever. That is forever gone.


Unknown. We do not know this with certitude.

2. Your memories, which reside in your brain, disintegrate along with all skills and knowledge acquired.

We definitely do not know that the brain equates with the mind.

3. Your relationships are no more. You are no longer father, brother, son, lover, artist, musician, shroomer.

The relationships are still intact because they are construed on both sides of life. When my mother died I did not stop being her son.

So the "you" as you define yourself today is completely obliterated.

Unknown. There are philosophical postulates that lead in another direction.

Is it close-minded to think that there is NOT a gorgeous naked woman holding my million dollar lottery winnings standing outside my door right now? Does that sound silly and preposterous? Well eternal bliss sounds even more so.

Weak analogy and unfounded personal opinion.

If there is zero proof, evidence or any sort of pointer to a continued existence, why should one entertain the possibility at all?

There are proofs and evidence to be had in the area of philosophy. This is not an area where only empirical evidence is allowed.

There are only two reasons that I know of.

1. An idea borrowed from others.

2. A self-created story to quell a deep-seated fear of oblivion.

Neither of those is sufficient to put any credence into the idea.


As you said, "that I know of". That leaves a lot of room for inquiry, wouldn't you say?

Cheers,




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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #818645 - 08/15/02 06:49 PM (20 years, 2 days ago)

Unknown. We do not know this with certitude.
I suggest digging up a cadaver and be certain.

We definitely do not know that the brain equates with the mind.
Which is not what I said. The brain is hardware, the mind is software. However, alzheimers and head trauma victims definitely lose memory and brain function. Partial deterioration equals partial loss; total deterioration equals total loss.

When my mother died I did not stop being her son.
In semantics only. Where is the mother to relate to? When my house burns down, it is no longer my house; just a place where I used to live. The relationship is in a memory that too will decay over time.

Unknown. There are philosophical postulates that lead in another direction.
Not unknown. Your body will decompose; you will no longer work at XZY Corporation and live on Main St and make love to your wife and post on the shroomery and enjoy a nice sunset after smoking some spliff...

Weak analogy and unfounded personal opinion.
Agreed that it is weak, but no more weak or unfounded than the eternal life hypothesis which was my point.

There are proofs and evidence to be had in the area of philosophy. This is not an area where only empirical evidence is allowed.
Care to share something beyond semantic wrestling?

That leaves a lot of room for inquiry, wouldn't you say?
I wouldn't say so, no. I was leaving the door ajar, but apparently the best anyone can do is ask questions rather than point to any indicators for holding such an unsubstantiated belief.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #818751 - 08/15/02 07:29 PM (20 years, 2 days ago)

Good Post! I only say that because:

1. You have repeatedly stated that no one says that when they disagree and I want to be contrary.

2. I have had a bud light and am partially drunk.

Nice to see you posting btw.

On with the show:

I suggest digging up a cadaver and be certain.

Your proposition omits any philosophical inquiry into the subject and admits empirical evidence. As I said, there is other evidence available.

Which is not what I said. The brain is hardware, the mind is software. However, alzheimers and head trauma victims definitely lose memory and brain function. Partial deterioration equals partial loss; total deterioration equals total loss.

You may be quite good at telling us what you did not say but your post definitely gives the illusion that you think that the mind and the brain are equal in the fact that when the brain no longer functions the mind doesn't either. This analogy is a better one but it is not conclusive evidence that the mind and the brain are the same thing.

In semantics only. Where is the mother to relate to? When my house burns down, it is no longer my house; just a place where I used to live. The relationship is in a memory that too will decay over time.

Not quite. To say that it is only a matter of semantics is to say what? The relationship of a parent to a child is an eternal relationship because one is derived from the other. This analogy is also weak. Memory has little to do with the fact, does it?

Not unknown. Your body will decompose; you will no longer work at XZY Corporation and live on Main St and make love to your wife and post on the shroomery and enjoy a nice sunset after smoking some spliff...

Unknown. You are conflating empirical evidence with knowledge. There are other types of knowledge.

Agreed that it is weak, but no more weak or unfounded than the eternal life hypothesis which was my point.

And as I said that is your personal opinion which is not founded on anything other than speculation. I base my opinions on a little more than that.


Care to share something beyond semantic wrestling?

Yes, I would. These discussions are generally unfruitful because the disputants engage in something other than philosophical inquiry. I have several good ideas that lead me to think that there is an existence beyond the grave and I entend to start threads on them as soon as I have enough loyal fans who will swallow everything I say wholesale.

I would like to start the threads within the next few weeks.


I wouldn't say so, no. I was leaving the door ajar, but apparently the best anyone can do is ask questions rather than point to any indicators for holding such an unsubstantiated belief.

Ah the veritable Tom Bodett of spirituality, "We'll leave the light on for ya."

Again, these are but your unsubstantiated opinions based on your experience and science, or so it would seem.

Again, nice to see you posting!


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Phred]
    #826853 - 08/18/02 10:50 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Wow, I wen't ahead and finished reading this whole post, and man, Zahid I am really sorry your head is that far up your ass.


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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
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Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #827164 - 08/19/02 03:50 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

swami... you know what i find very sad about your posts... you judge other people for thinking that they are their body (im fat, ugly, handsome, tall, etc) and are oh! so sure that you are right when you think that a human beeing is actually his own mind... but i must say both views are wrong... we are not only NOT OUR BODY (merely a tool), we are also NOT OUR MIND (a beautiful tool, that can play many tricks on us if we let it take control)... WE ARE OUR SOUL... therefore eternal creative beeings... the body is lost, yes... the mind is lost yes... but that in no way means our memories are lost... everything is stored in the soul... EVERYTHING... thats why you have deja' vu ... thats why for instance, i can remember some of my past lifes... i am in no way saying our body and mind don?t serve us... i value my body, as well as my mind for what i can do with them... but when it comes to BEEING, i don?t need any of them... always remember that we are a holy trinity... body, mind and soul...
the reason your posts make me sad is that they give me the impression that you don?t believe in a soul... only in the mind... and thats serious...
so let me ask you a question... do you believe in love? and i don?t mean a casual fling or a 2 month relationship... i mean complete and inconditional love like the one of a mother for its child... (like the one of god for us, but since you don?t believe in god, leave that out)... and i know you?ll probably say that not every mother loves his child inconditionally, and i know it?s true... but most of them do...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: In(di)go]
    #827201 - 08/19/02 04:20 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

so let me ask you a question... do you believe in love?
I did and it has nearly destroyed me. In fact, I have never recovered.

and i don?t mean a casual fling or a 2 month relationship... i mean complete and inconditional love like the one of a mother for its child...
Funny you should say that. I dated a devout Christian woman for 5 years. I am quite fit and energetic and have usually dated woman much younger than I. A is 7 years older than me (and over 20 years older than my previous girlfriend!) and I would have given my life for her, I loved her that much.

I was with her the night her daughter died. The funeral was the most draining experience of my life, after which A hardly ever spoke to me again. I waited for 3 years trying to get resolution with A. Letters, phone calls, and prayers all went unanswered.

Finally I literally said "Fuck it!" I banged any chick I could after years of celibacy. Lined 'em up in a row. Of course it didn't help. Tried to get romantic and care for someone again, I just couldn't get any spiritual / emotional connection. Now I am forever stuck in limbo - unable to go back, unable to move forward.

Ain't love grand?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #827365 - 08/19/02 07:00 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

I did and it has nearly destroyed me. In fact, I have never recovered

Jesus swami, that sounds like a tough break. So mushrooms didn't work out, love didn't work out. Is this why you turned to science?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #827377 - 08/19/02 07:13 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Mr Mush, there's a lot of physicists coming to the conclusion that the soul is a scientifically provable fact.

This is just one of the new books, pretty good too...

In a brilliant integration of science, spirituality, and consciousness on par with such forward-thinking classics as Taking the Quantum Leap, The Tao of Physics, and The Dancing Wu Li Masters, physicist and author Dr. Amit Goswami uses quantum physics to describe mystical concepts such as the immortality of the soul, reincarnation, and the afterlife. Dr. Goswami describes consciousness as more than an abstract concept &#8212; it is a reality that is primary and fundamental to science, and is his starting point for all scientific conduct. In Physics of the Soul, he integrates descriptions from The Tibetan Book of the Dead with his knowledge of quantum physics and concludes that reincarnational memory &#8212; past lives and our access to them &#8212; is an absolute, scientifically provable truth.



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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #827381 - 08/19/02 07:16 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Ah the veritable Tom Bodett of spirituality, "We'll leave the light on for ya."

LOL!


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMahakala
Monk

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 14
Last seen: 19 years, 11 months
Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: ]
    #827430 - 08/19/02 07:50 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

I know I'm late coming into this one, but in reply to the original post.
Hypothetically speaking if Karma did not follow us and shape our next existence. Then yes there would still be a reason to follow this " religion". Due to the fact that all beings desire happiness, all beings wish to abstain from suffering. But then again Buddhism isn't really a religion in it's core, it is not based on belief or faith, it is a system of thought more like one of the earliest forms of Psychology. I suppose thats why some people incorporate it into thier own religions such as Jewish_Buddhists Etc.
But alas having looked at the way most religions are taught today and the way they are translated the behavior of a follower is based on the belief of an after life. Take away the heaven or the hell, and it's like taking the crutches from a cripple,only the strong of mind will be able to stand and the rest will most likely faulter. The idea of heaven or hell is just one more thing for ego to grasp onto.


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #827505 - 08/19/02 08:37 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

I did and it has nearly destroyed me. In fact, I have never recovered.

+ the rest of the post


What's this lump in my throat? It feels terrible.





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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Xlea321]
    #827716 - 08/19/02 10:40 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

there's a lot of physicists coming to the conclusion that the soul is a scientifically provable fact

This is just rhetoric without evidence.
Don't link "Dancing Wu Li Masters" with such ideas. There is NOTHING in Zukav's book that alludes to anything like that. He only points out that physics can be viewed in an eastern manner.


In Physics of the Soul, he integrates descriptions from The Tibetan Book of the Dead with his knowledge of quantum physics and concludes that reincarnational memory past lives and our access to them is an absolute, scientifically provable truth.
So, he can provide us with evidence. Cool. Where is it?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineLiquidSmoke
My title's cooler than yours DBK

Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 25,327
Loc: S.A.G.G.Y.B.A.L.L.S.
Last seen: 4 hours, 57 minutes
Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Sclorch]
    #827799 - 08/19/02 11:21 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Heh,


I just want to point out one thing.


This entire "science vs. religion" thing makes no sense at all because they ask two completely different questions about our existence.



Science answers the "how".


Religion answers the "why".





People think existence ITSELF is the strongest evidence of creationism. Unless you're expecting a big hand to come out of the clouds like in all those TV and movie portrayals of God.

Oh yeah, one more thing for thought. Never believe science.


Centuries ago everyone KNEW the Earth was flat.

everyone KNEW everything revolved the Earth.

everyone KNEW leaches could cure anything. All because scientists (physicists included) told us so.


You can say we have more technology now and that our theories are more credible than in the past. But once again, you can't ever determine when we'll hit the plateau of true knowloedge. Everything mentioned in those writings are THEORY BASED. Just like in the past.


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"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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Anonymous

Re: No Heaven, No Hell... [Re: Swami]
    #827866 - 08/19/02 11:42 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Give love another chance Swami. It can be the most wonderful thing.


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