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Re: Israeli Fascism [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #29692578 -

Its perfectly legitimate to be Jewish, Zionist and completely at odds with how the current regime does things.

Hard to look at the current regime and say the Godly Zion has arrived.


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Re: Israeli Fascism [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #29692590 -

Bigbadwooof said:
Often times they take a lot of heat from their family/community, for standing up for what is right, and they deserve a lot of respect for that. It is difficult to do.


Indeed

There's a National Filmboard of Canada documentary from 2006 which features five Israeli highschool students who refused to serve their military time in the occupied territories -- these aren't even anti-Zionists, they are Israelis who didn't want to participate in the oppression of Palestinians, and they still faced severe social and legal repercussions: https://www.nfb.ca/film/raised-to-be-heroes/

For an idea of how things have gotten worse over the last two decades, we just need to look at the widespread response towards the directors of "NAZA": https://democratic-erosion.org/2026/10/09/the-persecution-of-naza-filmmakers-and-declining-press-freedom-in-israel/


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Re: Israeli Fascism [Re: Asante]
    #29692625 -

Asante said:
Its perfectly legitimate to be Jewish, Zionist and completely at odds with how the current regime does things.

Hard to look at the current regime and say the Godly Zion has arrived.


What about a Jewish person being anti-zionost?


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Re: Israeli Fascism [Re: sudly]
    #29692657 -

Perfectly legitimate too, of course.

Not legitimate is to legitimise atrocity - regardless of who does it for whatever reason.


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Re: Israeli Fascism [Re: Asante]
    #29692961 -

I have a hard time seeing Zionism as a legitimate movement -- I prefer to define it by the political project that Zionism has produced -- a genocidal ethnostate -- but Zionism is indefensible even if granted its most favourable terms: Jews have a right to safety and self-determination within their indigenous homeland

What is indigeneity? -- it's a context-dependent concept, but I would say historical indigeneity is a people's ancestral connection to a territory, including a connection that survives displacement and diaspora; whereas political indigeneity is the recognition of a people as indigenous within the context of the formation of modern states, often in relation to a population that has been subordinated -- Zionism invokes the former to justify a political project that must also contend with the latter -- ancestral connection alone cannot establish an exclusive right to sovereignty over a territory already inhabited by another people, the Palestinians

Looking further, we have to also ask: "can one convert to an indigenous identity?" --this is because Jewishness holds a unique place where it is an ethnicity, culture, and religion simultaneously -- if indigeneity is grounded in ancestral connection to a particular territory, how can someone with no ancestral connection to that territory become eligible for Jewish "right to return" through conversion to Judaism? -- a state cannot coherently ground exclusive territorial privileges in indigeneity while simultaneously defining eligibility for membership in the privileged national group in a way that does not require ancestral connection to the territory -- particularly when that same principle of return is not applied equally to displaced Palestinians and their descendants

Finally, we need to ask what self-determination looks like -- does it entail the establishment and maintenance of a Jewish-majority state in a territory shared with another people who also possess a legitimate claim to self-determination? -- if Jewish self-determination requires a permanent Jewish demographic majority, what happens when the population does not naturally sustain that majority? -- if maintaining that majority requires restricting immigration, residency, citizenship, or the political rights of Palestinians, how can those restrictions be reconciled with Palestinian self-determination? -- if Jewish sovereignty is compatible with equal political rights for everyone in the territory, must the state accept the possibility that Jews will no longer constitute a majority?

My problem, then, is not necessarily with the idea that Jews belong in their ancestral homeland, or that they deserve safety and self-determination -- it's with the assumption that these rights must take the form of a Jewish nation-state, and that the establishment and preservation of that state can justify the displacement, exclusion, and unequal political status of another people - the Palestinians

And even after granting Zionism its most good faith definition, I still can't answer these questions in a way that doesn't lead us to the ethnonationalist project of Zionism as it currently exists -- although I'm open to reading how others may approach these questions


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (10/10/26 02:20 PM)

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Re: Israeli Fascism [Re: CrAcKbAbY]
    #29693039 -



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