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OfflineGazzBut
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Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict * 2
    #17246532 - 11/19/12 03:27 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

It still baffles me how anybody can turn this situation into a black and white issue and give the Israeli's their full support while condemning the Palestinians completely. I don't think you will find many Westerners who wholeheartedly support Palestine, although for many people any criticism of Israel instantly equates to full support of all Palestinian actions and raises suspicion of antisemitism! On the other hand those who fully support Israel and condemn the Palestinians seem to be ten a penny...

This speech was made in 2009 but the points made still stand.


You Tube

Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I was brought up as an orthodox Jew and a Zionist. On a shelf in our kitchen, there was a tin box for the Jewish National Fund, into which we put coins to help the pioneers building a Jewish presence in Palestine.

I first went to Israel in 1961 and I have been there since more times than I can count. I had family in Israel and have friends in Israel. One of them fought in the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1973 and was wounded in two of them. The tie clip that I am wearing is made from a campaign decoration awarded to him, which he presented to me.

I have known most of the Prime Ministers of Israel, starting with the founding Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion. Golda Meir was my friend, as was Yigal Allon, Deputy Prime Minister, who, as a general, won the Negev for Israel in the 1948 war of independence.

My parents came to Britain as refugees from Poland. Most of their families were subsequently murdered by the Nazis in the holocaust. My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszow. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed.

My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The current Israeli Government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians. The implication is that Jewish lives are precious, but the lives of Palestinians do not count.

On Sky News a few days ago, the spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestinians—the total is now 1,000. She replied instantly that 500 of them were militants.

That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose that the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants.

The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livnis father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews.

Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Irgun, together with the terrorist Stern gang, massacred 254 Palestinians in 1948 in the village of Deir Yassin. Today, the current Israeli Government indicate that they would be willing, in circumstances acceptable to them, to negotiate with the Palestinian President Abbas of Fatah. It is too late for that. They could have negotiated with Fatahs previous leader, Yasser Arafat, who was a friend of mine. Instead, they besieged him in a bunker in Ramallah, where I visited him. Because of the failings of Fatah since Arafats death, Hamas won the Palestinian election in 2006. Hamas is a deeply nasty organisation, but it was democratically elected, and it is the only game in town. The boycotting of Hamas, including by our Government, has been a culpable error, from which dreadful consequences have followed.

The great Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban, with whom I campaigned for peace on many platforms, said: You make peace by talking to your enemies.

However many Palestinians the Israelis murder in Gaza, they cannot solve this existential problem by military means. Whenever and however the fighting ends, there will still be 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza and 2.5 million more on the west bank. They are treated like dirt by the Israelis, with hundreds of road blocks and with the ghastly denizens of the illegal Jewish settlements harassing them as well. The time will come, not so long from now, when they will outnumber the Jewish population in Israel.

It is time for our Government to make clear to the Israeli Government that their conduct and policies are unacceptable, and to impose a total arms ban on Israel. It is time for peace, but real peace, not the solution by conquest which is the Israelis real goal but which it is impossible for them to achieve. They are not simply war criminals; they are fools.


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Offlinedeelo89
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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: GazzBut]
    #17246925 - 11/19/12 04:41 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered to withdraw from 97 percent of the West Bank and 100 percent of the Gaza Strip. In addition, he agreed to dismantle 63 isolated settlements. In exchange for the 5 percent annexation of the West Bank, Israel would increase the size of the Gaza territory by roughly a third. Arafat declined because part of the terms stated that upon agreement of the accord,The conflict would be considered officially over.

Quote:

GazzBut said:

They could have negotiated with Fatahs previous leader, Yasser Arafat, who was a friend of mine. Instead, they besieged him in a bunker in Ramallah, where I visited him.

Quote:

GazzBut said:


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: deelo89]
    #17247157 - 11/19/12 05:25 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

So you just dismiss the opinion of Gerald Kaufman by trotting out some little factoid you just googled?

Im pretty certain that Kaufman has forgotten more facts about the history of Israel and Palestine than you will ever know but hey once you have a belief stuck in your head why go to the effort of making sure it is a valid belief?

I see your quote is lifted from the Jewish Federation and Im sure they are completely unbiased in their interpretation of events! However, for the sake of balance, here is another view on the offer made by Barak and the Palestinian rejection.

Link

Quote:

To understand what actually happened at Camp David, it's necessary to know that for many years the PLO has officially called for a two-state solution in which Israel would keep the 78 percent of the Palestine Mandate (as Britain's protectorate was called) that it has controlled since 1948, and a Palestinian state would be formed on the remaining 22 percent that Israel has occupied since the 1967 war (the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem). Israel would withdraw completely from those lands, return to the pre-1967 borders and a resolution to the problem of the Palestinian refugees who were forced to flee their homes in 1948 would be negotiated between the two sides. Then, in exchange, the Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel (PLO Declaration, 12/7/88; PLO Negotiations Department).

Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).





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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: GazzBut]
    #17247839 - 11/19/12 07:32 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

I dismiss the opinion of Mr Kaufman on the basis that almost no Israelis share his opinion.  He was elected to what?  He is a Limey cunt.  There is no shortage of cunts in America, either.  None of the useless brats ever puts their ass on the line.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #17247952 - 11/19/12 07:52 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

So you think you have a better handle on the whole thing than Kaufman?

Most amusing.

Do you really see the whole situation as black and white? Israel have done no wrong? Have nothing to answer for? Could not have approached things differently if they really wanted peace?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: GazzBut]
    #17248031 - 11/19/12 08:04 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
So you think you have a better handle on the whole thing than Kaufman?

Most amusing.




Yes.  Who the fuck is he?
Quote:



Do you really see the whole situation as black and white? Israel have done no wrong? Have nothing to answer for? Could not have approached things differently if they really wanted peace?




Oh I most certainly think they could have done things differently.  They have been too conciliatory in my mind.  You get peace when you definitively and finally defeat the enemy.  See Japan.  Has it ever occurred to you that the people who set the original borders of Israel, raging anti-semites, set them up for slaughter?  Take a look at the original borders.  Then take a look at the original borders of all the other nations they carved out of the Ottoman Empire.  Guess which one is a crazy quilt of insanity.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: GazzBut]
    #17248133 - 11/19/12 08:20 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

In this recent escalation the Palestinians broke the relative peace and started attacking.  They started it, this time.


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Offlinedeelo89
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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: GazzBut]
    #17248779 - 11/19/12 09:59 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
So you just dismiss the opinion of Gerald Kaufman by trotting out some little factoid you just googled?

Im pretty certain that Kaufman has forgotten more facts about the history of Israel and Palestine than you will ever know but hey once you have a belief stuck in your head why go to the effort of making sure it is a valid belief?

I see your quote is lifted from the Jewish Federation and Im sure they are completely unbiased in their interpretation of events! However, for the sake of balance, here is another view on the offer made by Barak and the Palestinian rejection.

Link

Quote:

To understand what actually happened at Camp David, it's necessary to know that for many years the PLO has officially called for a two-state solution in which Israel would keep the 78 percent of the Palestine Mandate (as Britain's protectorate was called) that it has controlled since 1948, and a Palestinian state would be formed on the remaining 22 percent that Israel has occupied since the 1967 war (the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem). Israel would withdraw completely from those lands, return to the pre-1967 borders and a resolution to the problem of the Palestinian refugees who were forced to flee their homes in 1948 would be negotiated between the two sides. Then, in exchange, the Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel (PLO Declaration, 12/7/88; PLO Negotiations Department).

Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).








I am dismissing one point he made. Doesn't matter what my source is because virtually everyone acknowledges that negotiations did take place and failed. So him pointing a finger saying it never happened is just plain wrong. And that also brings me to wonder why it is you place so much weight on one man's opinion. Like another poster said..Who the fuck is he? there are plenty of "experts" regarding the Israel, the Palestinians, and other Arab states.
History shows that Israel is capable of having fruitful relationships with it's Arab neighbors. Jordan, Egypt (under Sadat and Mubarak)Turkey, before the Mavi Marmara. However, it is the Palestinians that have been historically shown to speaking straightforwardly...be a PAIN THE IN THE ASS. PLO moved to Jordan...they started bombing Jordanian marketplaces. Then they moved to Lebanon, My dad is from Lebanon, I hear first hand how the PLO caused strife and escalated violence in Lebanon.
And compared to Hamas, the PLO are a bunch of doves in terms of extreme ideology.
Israel pulled out of Gaza, gave the Palestinians Gush Katif and other beautiful settlements that they literally built from nothing, but they are just to consumed by hate to realize that they can get what they want.....just stop firing rockets blindly.


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OfflineKaos
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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: deelo89]
    #17249401 - 11/19/12 11:30 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

deelo89 said:
Quote:

GazzBut said:
So you just dismiss the opinion of Gerald Kaufman by trotting out some little factoid you just googled?

Im pretty certain that Kaufman has forgotten more facts about the history of Israel and Palestine than you will ever know but hey once you have a belief stuck in your head why go to the effort of making sure it is a valid belief?

I see your quote is lifted from the Jewish Federation and Im sure they are completely unbiased in their interpretation of events! However, for the sake of balance, here is another view on the offer made by Barak and the Palestinian rejection.

Link

Quote:

To understand what actually happened at Camp David, it's necessary to know that for many years the PLO has officially called for a two-state solution in which Israel would keep the 78 percent of the Palestine Mandate (as Britain's protectorate was called) that it has controlled since 1948, and a Palestinian state would be formed on the remaining 22 percent that Israel has occupied since the 1967 war (the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem). Israel would withdraw completely from those lands, return to the pre-1967 borders and a resolution to the problem of the Palestinian refugees who were forced to flee their homes in 1948 would be negotiated between the two sides. Then, in exchange, the Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel (PLO Declaration, 12/7/88; PLO Negotiations Department).

Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).








I am dismissing one point he made. Doesn't matter what my source is because virtually everyone acknowledges that negotiations did take place and failed. So him pointing a finger saying it never happened is just plain wrong. And that also brings me to wonder why it is you place so much weight on one man's opinion. Like another poster said..Who the fuck is he? there are plenty of "experts" regarding the Israel, the Palestinians, and other Arab states.
History shows that Israel is capable of having fruitful relationships with it's Arab neighbors. Jordan, Egypt (under Sadat and Mubarak)Turkey, before the Mavi Marmara. However, it is the Palestinians that have been historically shown to speaking straightforwardly...be a PAIN THE IN THE ASS. PLO moved to Jordan...they started bombing Jordanian marketplaces. Then they moved to Lebanon, My dad is from Lebanon, I hear first hand how the PLO caused strife and escalated violence in Lebanon.
And compared to Hamas, the PLO are a bunch of doves in terms of extreme ideology.
Israel pulled out of Gaza, gave the Palestinians Gush Katif and other beautiful settlements that they literally built from nothing, but they are just to consumed by hate to realize that they can get what they want.....just stop firing rockets blindly.




:whathesaid:

And in response to GazzBut's history lesson about the "unfair borders," let's not forget this:
Palestine never existed as a state, let alone an Arab state.  It was once 20% of an area known as the Palestine Mandate, which was part of the Ottoman Empire (Turks, NOT Arabs).  When the Turks were defeated in WWI, the UN promised that entire area to the Jews, but then changed their mind, turning 80% of it into Jordan (an Arab state), leaving the other 20%, which was mostly desert, to the Jews.  They could have stopped there, but instead they went even further, and proposed a two-state solution for the Palestinians and Jews.  The Jews accepted this solution.  The Palestinians did not.


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Edited by Kaos (11/19/12 11:36 PM)


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: Kaos] * 1
    #17249805 - 11/20/12 12:36 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

It is the mentality (and resulting practices of massacre of civilians and a campaign of ethnic cleansing) of the colonialist to say that bc the natives are in some ways different from us (e.g. they don't have a formal "state"), they can be massacred and driven from the land, which can then be "legally" seized. It's actually both extreme aggression as well as statism. This was identical to u.s. policy against American Indians (most of whom wanted peace and commerce; they were the libertarians violated egregiously by the statists).

"Every policy the Palestinians are enduring was practiced on the Native Americans."

"Native American are the Palestinians of the United States, and Palestinians are the Native Americans of Europe." - Russell Means (1939-2012, RIP)

Warrior for the People
http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/10/26/47134/

To other poster, i don't know the activities of the PLO in Jordan and Lebanon (they deliberately targeted civilians?). However, the largest mass murder of civilians in the Lebanese Civil War was against Palestinian refugees, by fascist Christian militias supported by the u.s. and Israel (Sharon especially).


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OfflineKaos
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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #17249931 - 11/20/12 01:00 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

The Native American's didn't get to keep 80% of their land, and then get offered a portion of the land left over on top of it.  Palestinians pretend like they're fighting for some kind of nationalism, but the fact is, they're surrounded by Arab countries, while the Jews have a tiny slice of land in the middle of all of it.  Also, how is Israel practicing ethnic cleansing?  There are plenty of Arab/Muslim citizens of Israel.


Edited by Kaos (11/20/12 01:01 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: deelo89]
    #17250263 - 11/20/12 02:19 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I am dismissing one point he made. Doesn't matter what my source is because virtually everyone acknowledges that negotiations did take place and failed.




He wasn't saying that negotiations never take place but highlighting the fact that at a vital period Israel preferred to avoid negotiations and keep Arafat holed up in his bunker.

Quote:

Like another poster said..Who the fuck is he?




He isn't American Im afraid but contrary to popular belief he can still hold a valid opinion.

Quote:

History shows that Israel is capable of having fruitful relationships with it's Arab neighbors. Jordan, Egypt (under Sadat and Mubarak)Turkey, before the Mavi Marmara. However, it is the Palestinians that have been historically shown to speaking straightforwardly...be a PAIN THE IN THE ASS.




I know...bitching and moaning when the Israelis illegally bulldoze their homes. What a pain in the ass!

Quote:

Israel pulled out of Gaza, gave the Palestinians Gush Katif and other beautiful settlements that they literally built from nothing, but they are just to consumed by hate to realize that they can get what they want.....just stop firing rockets blindly.




Illegally built from nothing. You say the Palestinian's just need to stop firing rockets but do you really think the best way to persuade them to stop is by killing hundreds of their people? Its fairly obvious that all this will do is encourage further extreme behavior but Im sure the Israeli's know this and have no real interest in a lasting peace anyway.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17250270 - 11/20/12 02:21 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Oh I most certainly think they could have done things differently.  They have been too conciliatory in my mind.  You get peace when you definitively and finally defeat the enemy.  See Japan.  Has it ever occurred to you that the people who set the original borders of Israel, raging anti-semites, set them up for slaughter?  Take a look at the original borders.  Then take a look at the original borders of all the other nations they carved out of the Ottoman Empire.  Guess which one is a crazy quilt of insanity.




Too fucked up to even bother responding to.


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OfflineKaos
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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: GazzBut]
    #17250355 - 11/20/12 02:51 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Illegally built from nothing. You say the Palestinian's just need to stop firing rockets but do you really think the best way to persuade them to stop is by killing hundreds of their people? Its fairly obvious that all this will do is encourage further extreme behavior but Im sure the Israeli's know this and have no real interest in a lasting peace anyway.




I personally hate violence as an answer, but that's how things work in this imperfect world: you shoot rockets at me, I'm gonna shoot rockets right back.  It's called warfare.  It's fucked up, but when you use deadly force against someone, you better be ready to accept the consequences of that action.  The reason so many Palestinians die in counter attacks, is because Hamas situates themselves the middle of populated areas, filled with women and children who have no proper defense against such attacks because Hammas cares more about purchasing weapons then protecting their own.  Then they use the collateral damage (aka the lives of innocent Palestinian civilians) to skew the reality of the situation and gain sympathy for their cause.  I'm curious, do you honestly think that there's anything Israel can do (short of disintegrating the entire Jewish state) that will make Hamas stop attacking?  Because I don't, but I would love to hear some suggestions if you have any.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: Kaos]
    #17250362 - 11/20/12 02:53 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Palestine never existed as a state, let alone an Arab state.  It was once 20% of an area known as the Palestine Mandate, which was part of the Ottoman Empire (Turks, NOT Arabs).  When the Turks were defeated in WWI, the UN promised that entire area to the Jews, but then changed their mind, turning 80% of it into Jordan (an Arab state), leaving the other 20%, which was mostly desert, to the Jews.  They could have stopped there, but instead they went even further, and proposed a two-state solution for the Palestinians and Jews.  The Jews accepted this solution.  The Palestinians did not.]




You make it all sound so simple! Sadly its nowhere near as straight forward as you might like to think. However the point of this thread is to discuss whether it is valid to hold a viewpoint that completely supports the Israeli position and condemns the Palestinians. Is that the view you hold?

It is my contention that peace will never be found by people holding that opinion.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: Kaos]
    #17250387 - 11/20/12 03:03 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The reason so many Palestinians die in counter attacks, is because Hamas situates themselves the middle of populated areas, filled with women and children who have no proper defense against such attacks because Hammas cares more about purchasing weapons then protecting their own.




As opposed to launching attacks from the wide open unpopulated areas of Gaza?!!

[quote I'm curious, do you honestly think that there's anything Israel can do (short of disintegrating the entire Jewish state) that will make Hamas stop attacking? ]




As the Israeli's can adequately defend themselves without the need to resort to killing hundreds of Palestinians and as this response has been shown to be utterly useless in preventing further attacks from Hamas I would suggest a much more restrained approach might prove more successful. It may take a while but eventually Palestinian support for Hamas would wane if it was apparent that Israel had taken a more peaceful approach to the situation.

They could also try and promote a more healthy policy towards the economic situation in Gaza rather than doing their best to make things worse.

Link

Basically they need to become the first bunch of religious nutjobs to actually follow the guidelines of their supposed religion and turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor. Surely its got to be worth a try? Unless of course their goal is not to find a peaceful solution with the Palestinians.


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OfflineKaos
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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: GazzBut]
    #17250416 - 11/20/12 03:17 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

The reason so many Palestinians die in counter attacks, is because Hamas situates themselves the middle of populated areas, filled with women and children who have no proper defense against such attacks because Hammas cares more about purchasing weapons then protecting their own.




As opposed to launching attacks from the wide open unpopulated areas of Gaza?!!

[quote I'm curious, do you honestly think that there's anything Israel can do (short of disintegrating the entire Jewish state) that will make Hamas stop attacking? ]




As the Israeli's can adequately defend themselves without the need to resort to killing hundreds of Palestinians and as this response has been shown to be utterly useless in preventing further attacks from Hamas I would suggest a much more restrained approach might prove more successful. It may take a while but eventually Palestinian support for Hamas would wane if it was apparent that Israel had taken a more peaceful approach to the situation.

They could also try and promote a more healthy policy towards the economic situation in Gaza rather than doing their best to make things worse.

Link

Basically they need to become the first bunch of religious nutjobs to actually follow the guidelines of their supposed religion and turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor. Surely its got to be worth a try? Unless of course their goal is not to find a peaceful solution with the Palestinians.




So...sit around with their thumbs up their asses while their citizens get rained with rocket-fire?  And if it's so easy to be peaceful, then why couldn't the Palestinians prove themselves to be peaceful when Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2004?  Maybe that would have yielded positive results...


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OfflineKaos
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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: Kaos]
    #17250432 - 11/20/12 03:25 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

And just for the record, I don't think that Israel is perfect.  Everyone has to make choices, and in their position, they're inevitably going to make some bad ones.  But I don't think it's even comparable way Hamas handles their business.  They condemn themselves


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: Kaos]
    #17250545 - 11/20/12 04:16 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

So...sit around with their thumbs up their asses while their citizens get rained with rocket-fire?  And if it's so easy to be peaceful, then why couldn't the Palestinians prove themselves to be peaceful when Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2004?  Maybe that would have yielded positive results...]




So you think Israel's actions are actually making their people safer in the long term? The only way I can see that being the case is if they pretty much kill every last Palestinian. But then of course Im sure there would be severe repercussions from nations sympathetic to the Palestinians.

And yes the Palestinians could also renounce violence but just because they haven't shouldn't mean the Israeli's cannot either. That is the kind of circular logic that will ensure the conflict never ends or at least never ends well.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Interesting perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict [Re: GazzBut]
    #17250552 - 11/20/12 04:18 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

And just for the record, I don't think that Israel is perfect.  Everyone has to make choices, and in their position, they're inevitably going to make some bad ones.  But I don't think it's even comparable way Hamas handles their business.  They condemn themselves




Lets compare illegal acts and violence shall we? I'm pretty sure the comparison doesn't look good for the Israelis.


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