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Re: "Anti-Zionism is Antisemetism." [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #29508096 -

shivas.wisdom said:
I keep bringing up bad faith interpretations because it's an inseparable aspect of this discussion - going all the way up to rhetoric utilized by the state of Israel itself, this bad faith framing between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism is unavoidably present. You can't just remove that part, and propose a solution that assumes it doesn't exist.


I've said it before in this thread but I'm not saying this is a solution. It's part of the solution.

I think bad faith arguments are irrelevant because they don't tie into the cause and effect relationship I'm outlining. It's a problem you see when you zoom out, and I am trying to zoom in. I'm outlining a problem and you're saying "but what about this other problem that your solution doesn't affect at all?" when I never claimed it would affect it whatsoever. It's a strawman argument.

Quote:
I'm particularly confused why the Ms. Rachel example didn't highlight this for you - she's doing what you're suggesting, and still was labelled anti-Semitic for her advocacy - clearly this illustrates that your suggestion is not sufficient. Should she adopt the anti-Zionist label and push folks away? Well, I think that's on you to demonstrate that her self-labeling as anti-Zionist would push more people away than the bad faith labeling of anti-Semitic by her political opponents already did.


I think it's simple to demonstrate this. These groups exist. Some of them probably watch her show. It's simple game theory. I know I for one would be disappointed if she started calling herself anti-Zionist. I personally won't watch or read any content from creators who use that kind of terminology because it makes me suspect their arguments won't be nuanced going forward.

Quote:
The main reason you've given as to why we should avoid self-identifying as anti-Zionist is because it will lead to conflation with anti-Semitism - but if that conflation happens regardless, I don't see the benefit. You're assumption is that the opponent is acting in good faith, so that the simple move of adopting alternative language is a viable solution - but if the opponent is acting in bad faith, there is no alternative language that will avoid this accusation, and instead you fall into a pattern of constant retreat from the language used to criticize. Yes, I'm aware of Hanlon's Razor - I'm also aware that platitudes aren't tautologies.


"It rains, so why even bother with an umbrella? Everything will get wet."

I'm making an assumption because I'm talking about a particular group of people who do exist and can be reached. I know because I've done exactly this.

As for alternative language, you could say something like "I'm against the Israeli government" or "I'm against colonialist Zionism" or something. I think specificity is key to clear communication. You don't need a simple and easy term. Just be specific about your feelings.

Quote:
Looking at your general definition of Zionism, I would ask this: is there any variety of Zionism that isn't accurately described as an ethnocultural nationalist colonial movement? Because I would argue that 'Israeli nationalism' is an oversimplification that obfuscates the reality of it's establishment. Significant because, if I'm correct, you're describing people with an insufficient understanding of Zionism - if these are good faith individuals, why wouldn't educating them about Zionism be a better option than retreating from the label?


I recommend looking at what actual Zionists define the term as, and what they believe. If you do, you will notice an array of beliefs that covers everything from pro-colonialist attitudes to pro two-state solution beliefs.

And when I say actual Zionists I'm talking about people who call themselves Zionists. It's a broad group of beliefs. Usually what western 'progressive' anti-Zionists mean by the term targets the beliefs of the Jewish-Orthodoxy or other ethno-nationalist Zionists.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you in principle. Stick around here long enough, and you'll see that I approach people as individuals rather than a collection of labels - I will patiently explain the ideologies I identify with - I'll adjust my rhetoric to the discussion - I won't turn political labels into my personal identity - but I won't avoid the use of Zionism in my critiques of the state of Israel. It's an accurate label - even you haven't explicitly outlined these trends that turned anti-Zionism towards anti-Semitism. All you said was that progressive anti-Zionists adopted this language from who? Neo-Nazis? Blatantly untrue - anti-Zionist rhetoric has been present among far more than neo-Nazis


I said trends, not origins. I'm talking about 2026 and the culture that directly led up to it. I didn't say they 'adopted it from' I said they 'adopted the language of'. Have you ever watched American Story X? Or been in any spaces online where actual neo-Nazis hang out? Listened to any undercover operatives talk about infiltrating neo-Nazi groups? Any Hitler speeches?

The problem with 'progressive' anti-Zionists is they completely ignore any of these arguments and choose instead to push a prescriptive definition of Zionism which Zionists themselves don't adopt. Which is EXACTLY what neo-Nazis do, and what actual Nazis did.

Quote:
for decades - social media and the genocide finally brought it into the mainstream, that's all. On the other hand, if all types of Zionism can be definied as an 'ethnocultural nationalist colonial movement', is it really unfair when they are grouped together? Unless I can see an argument that demonstrates anti-Zionism as anti-Semitism, all I have is the collection of Israeli propaganda that unfairly conflates the two - I won't assume that everyone has the same definition of Zionism, but I certainly won't allow what I deem to be bad faith state propaganda to dictate the language I use.


Well, the problem is they can't be grouped together under the banner of 'ethnocultural nationalist colonial movement', so yes, it's unfair. Some are not ethnoculturally minded. Some are not colonialist. There's nuance and you've painted over it with a broad brush.

I am not sure why you're talking about the argument that anti-Zionism is antisemitic. That doesn't need to be demonstrated in order to observe the different groups of Zionists.

What do you think about this group of Zionists?

https://rabbis4ceasefire.com/

Check out their 'let Gaza live' article. https://rabbis4ceasefire.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/gaza-city-statement-sept-15-2025.pdf

They call it a genocide. They are from "Conservative, Reform, Modern Orthodox, Reconstructionist, & Renewal communities."

Do you agree with these Zionists that what Israel is doing in Gaza is genocide?


--------------------
"Grow through your mistakes and know that if patient, redemption will find you."

-Zotoh Zhaan

Edited by Zotoh Zhaan (03/06/26 05:57 PM)

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Re: "Anti-Zionism is Antisemetism." [Re: Zotoh Zhaan] * 1
    #29508180 -

I'll address these point by point.

1. "I've said it before in this thread but I'm not saying this is a solution. It's part of the solution[...]"

The solution to what? Avoiding confusion surrounding the term, sure, not using it would achieve that - but is it the only solution or the best solution? If I understand this, you've zoomed in your argument to a hypothetical good faith individual - sure, I will agree that in that very focused situation, avoiding the use of charged political labels can be beneficial - but I would argue that this hypothetical individual could also be better educated instead of avoiding the term. Do you have a reason to believe avoidance is better than education? And, eventually, we still have to zoom out towards the wider reality of things too - there will be bad faith individuals and organizations, what is the solution to this? Maybe you think they are separate issues, but they are still both relevant. How will your approach play out in these situations?


2. "I think it's simple to demonstrate this[...]"

Note, I didn't ask you to demonstrate that using Zionist labels will turn people off your message - I asked you to demonstrate that her self-labeling as anti-Zionist would push more people away than the bad faith labeling of anti-Semitic by her political opponents already did. If the problem is conflating criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism, dropping the Zionist labels doesn't prevent this. As an aside, I would suggest that you being unwilling to "watch or read any content from creators who use that kind of terminology" kinda seems like you falling victim to labels instead of trying to reach the individual. Is this not a double-standard when compared to the good faith approach you are advocating for Zionists?


3. "It rains, so why even bother with an umbrella? Everything will get wet."

Well speaking of strawmen... is that really the argument you think I'm making? My argument is more along the lines of 'Your umbrella is full of holes, so why even bother with that umbrella? Everything will still get wet'. I guess, now that you've been clear that you've tailored your solution specifically towards people who are politically ignorant but open to discussion, I will agree that your umbrella will work for this situation - but I still don't think it's the only solution, nor the best solution. I think education is always better than avoidance. Anyways, looking at your last paragraph in this particular section, what kind of arguments do you think I'm proposing? I don't just say "I'm against Zionism" and leave it at that - I rarely speak in soundbites and those alternatives are already part of my language - our difference really comes from my refusal to remove Zionism from that language. Why? Two factor: (1) I think it is an accurate and useful label, and (2) I don't believe changing our language will prevent the conflation with anti-Semitism. The problem of conflating criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism goes so far beyond the Zionist label. Once again, I believe that education, rather than avoidance, is the better response.


4. "I recommend looking at what actual Zionists define the term as, and what they believe[...]"

Assuming I haven't already? I'm asking you because my own efforts haven't found a manifestation of Zionism that isn't an ethnocultural nationalist colonial movement. Can you direct me to a specific type of Zionist ideology or at least an individual professing something that could be defined as such?


5. "I said trends, not origins[...]

Aaand it seems like we're back at my very first post. Where did I say origins? I'm asking for you to be more explicit about these trends you mentioned ("history + trends") that gives people a "a better, not perfect, understanding of the philosophy". Can you do that, instead of this vagueness? Waving your hand at American Story X as evidence that Zionist is the language of neo-Nazis? C'mon man... You really think that's a convincing trend? I'll once again direct you to the decades of anti-Zionism that isn't associated with neo-Nazis. Yes, Hitler and his neo-Nazi remnants spent a lot of time talking about Zionists - they also spend a lot of time talking about Jews but it's absurd to suggest that Jewishness is the language of neo-Nazis. They use these terms, but they're also well established terms outside of neo-Nazi rhetoric. Zionists self-identify as Zionists - it's an accurate label for a specific ideology. With all your talk of nuance, you really seem to be trying to paint over a century of anti-Zionist activism with the big brush of 'neo-Nazis'. Can you provide a better illustration of this trend other than a movie that was released nearly thirty years ago?

PS: The Nazis killed Jews, they didn't oppress with prescriptive definitions. Don't trivialize your argument with this absurdity.


6. "Well, the problem is they can't be grouped together under the banner of ethnocultural nationalist colonial movement[...]"

Still waiting to see the type of Zionism that can't be defined this way. I'm not interested in these continual vague references to "Some are not ethnoculturally minded. Some are not colonialist." Show me one of these groups - that might be something that would cause me to change my mind regarding my use of Zionist, but it's not something I've been able to find on my own. As for Rabbis4Ceasefire, I think you've once again committed your cardinal sin of hyper-focused labeling. I read through both the article you recommended and their 'About' section - the only mention of Zionism anywhere was this paragraph: "R4C understands that Judaism is not the same as Zionism or the State of Israel and we challenge their conflation. Resisting this conflation is strategically important to undermine the ways Judaism is used to justify Israel’s actions and is communally, individually, and morally important for Judaism’s future."

Seems like these anti-Zionists agree with me.


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (03/06/26 07:45 PM)

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Re: "Anti-Zionism is Antisemetism." [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #29508267 -

I think I am done with this conversation for the foreseeable future and will disengage. I do not feel as if you're interacting with the points I'm making. I'm not trying to solve every problem in politics here and this is stretching far beyond what my original post was about. I recommend looking into political/liberal Zionism.

I do want to thank you for taking the time to reply but I just don't have the energy or brain power for this right now. I have some things going on in my life (sleep deprived + injury + sobriety stress + worrying about my family getting kidnapped by the government) so it's not just you. I really do appreciate this conversation and I hope to talk with you more in the future.

Sorry if this is rude I just didn't want to leave you hanging. These are the conversations I like to have online, and it was a good distraction for me. Thanks!


--------------------
"Grow through your mistakes and know that if patient, redemption will find you."

-Zotoh Zhaan

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Re: "Anti-Zionism is Antisemetism." [Re: Zotoh Zhaan] * 2
    #29508397 -

Step one: Try to degrade the discussion through constant sidetracking, veiled accusations and begging the question.

Step two: Leave when someone won't play the same game.

:bigjoint:

Talk about playing to stereotype.


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Time is nature's way of making sure that everything doesn't happen at once.

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Re: "Anti-Zionism is Antisemetism." [Re: towndaze]
    #29508400 -

I am in favor of the New State Solution


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

Onehomemission.org
truly make a difference

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Re: "Anti-Zionism is Antisemetism." [Re: Zotoh Zhaan]
    #29508419 -

Zotoh Zhaan said:
Whenever someone calls themselves anti-Zionist I know that they don't really understand what Zionism is. It's such a broad ideology and people who decry it tend to hyperfocus on only certain aspects about it that are being fed to them via the media they consume.|

The reason some think anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism is because they better understand the broadness of this ideology and have made snap judgements about the people who espouse it.

I don't think most self-described anti-Zionists are bigots, but prior to the outbreak of this war that was very different. Hitler decried Zionism. Neo-Nazis decried Zionism. So when (mostly) progressives adopt the languages of these Nazis, is it any surprise that there are some who are unwilling to dig through personal nuance to discover the truth?

I think discussion will be better if we stop using over-generalized terms without understanding what they mean to the people who self-identify with those labels. It's this kind of political rhetoric that keeps people who actually agree on solutions from seeing each other as allies. Whatever prescriptive linguistic argument someone wants to give pales in comparison to the importance of seeking solutions.


I'll give fictional examples:

Bob is a Zionist. Bob believes all Palestinians should be put to death and the land taken over by Israelis.

Andy is a Zionist. Andy believes in a two state solution and doesn't want to see Israel dissolved, as he believes the state should exist even if he doesn't like what the government of Israel is doing.

Jimmy is an anti-Zionist. He has '888' tattooed on his forehead and just submitted a Klan application.

George is an anti-Zionist. He is opposed to the atrocities Israel is committing and wants peace. He believes in a two state solution. He doesn't have a problem with Israel, he has a problem with the government.


Notice how Andy and George self-identify differently but believe in the same solution? And yet, they may see each other as enemies regardless due to the terminology they choose to use. Decry one side as illogical if you want, get into the semantics of it, but what good does it do? What change does it lead to?


One problem with the discussion is that Bob and Jimmy usually decide the discourse.
Andy and George are continually told that they are traitors to their respective side, and will often choose silence over reprisals.

The situation is not unique for this topic, though.


--------------------


★★★★★

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Re: "Anti-Zionism is Antisemetism." [Re: Asante]
    #29508424 -

Asante said:
I am in favor of the New State Solution


Well it works for the church they got there. Though at worst it'll go about as well as the Yugoslavian nuclear program (good start but the constant ethnocultural Sabotage between research teams brought it down).

(Kind of a shame).


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Time is nature's way of making sure that everything doesn't happen at once.

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Re: "Anti-Zionism is Antisemetism." [Re: towndaze] * 1
    #29508430 -

Because I am pro-Semitic, and Palestinians are also Semites, i am against the Gaza Massacre and the Iran Assault (assassinate an Ayatollah, are you nuts?!) and for peace in the Middle East, initialized by a coming together of Judaism, Islam and Christianity in recognition of the fact that they all serve the God of Adam/Adom and Abraham/Ibrahim, and that Jerusalem belongs to Him, not one particular faction of followers of Him but Him, period.

This warmongering dictatorship is not the Godly Zion, both Israel and Palestine must redefine themselves to make the Godly Zion that will inspire the whole world a reality, together.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

Onehomemission.org
truly make a difference

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Re: "Anti-Zionism is Antisemetism." [Re: Asante]
    #29508499 -

Anti-semitism as it is defined at present, means "anti jewish". So a misnomer, actually.
Nobody uses the expression to describe people opposed to other historically semitic people (as per definition "descendants of Shem").

Zionism on the other hand, describes the idea of repatriation of Jews to Jerusalem and modern day Israel.
It appears to be a mainly political movement, although strongly supported by orthodox branches of judaism.

By and large, a very sticky topic.


--------------------


★★★★★

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Re: "Anti-Zionism is Antisemetism." [Re: Zotoh Zhaan]
    #29508683 -

Zotoh Zhaan said:
I think I am done with this conversation for the foreseeable future and will disengage. I do not feel as if you're interacting with the points I'm making. I'm not trying to solve every problem in politics here and this is stretching far beyond what my original post was about. I recommend looking into political/liberal Zionism.

I do want to thank you for taking the time to reply but I just don't have the energy or brain power for this right now. I have some things going on in my life (sleep deprived + injury + sobriety stress + worrying about my family getting kidnapped by the government) so it's not just you. I really do appreciate this conversation and I hope to talk with you more in the future.

Sorry if this is rude I just didn't want to leave you hanging. These are the conversations I like to have online, and it was a good distraction for me. Thanks!


If you feel like I'm not interacting with the points you're making, it's likely because you're putting forward a very unclear argument.

Your first post in this thread opened with the premise that those who conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism typically have a better understanding of the philosophy. This was followed by a general plea that we stop using over-generalized terms without understanding what they mean to the people who self-identify with those labels.

You then clarified that you don't personally think anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic and yet, confusingly, you seemingly include yourself in the group who's understanding of "history + trends" leads them to believe that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. Does that imply you have a second level of understanding above theirs? Or does it falsify your claim that those who conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism typically have a better understanding of the philosophy?

Furthermore, despite your continual appeals to first understand what political labels mean to the people who self-identify with them, you also stated that you won't watch or read any content from creators who use anti-Zionist terminology - because you prejudge them based on your definition, instead of connecting with the individual behind the label - which kinda flies in the face of how you're suggesting we treat self-labeled Zionists.

You can see how this is all contradictory and confusing? Maybe you could try to restate things in different terms. Or, perhaps you could answer some of my clarifying questions; like can you better illustrate the trends you've mentioned, or can you direct me to a specific Zionist ideology that isn't an ethnonational colonial project. All I've seen are very vague answers up to this point.

But really, when I consider the 'Zionist' organization you linked in your recent post - and how they are an organization of Jewish rabbis who are explicitly against conflating Judaism with Zionism or the State of Israel - plus all your focus on better understanding Zionism and not hyper-focusing on labels - and how it all came together with you incorrectly labeling a Jewish organization as a Zionist organization despite their explicit advocacy against that very conflation and well... to be honest, I think you've demonstrated that your definition of Zionism is deficient - and considering how your entire argument is predicated on your better understanding of the history + trends surrounding Zionism - I really think your entire argument has fallen apart.

Still, this is an old school forum - these threads stick around for days if not weeks - things move slowly - if you're honest about enjoying our discussion, then take your time as you need it - this thread will still be here if you want to take another crack at it.


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