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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your business? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14087986 -

Everybody has an opinion.:shrug:

As Zap pointed out however, conquest is the bottom line. This is true in all of nature. If you can hold territory you will and if you can gain more to expand you will.  Don't ignore this fact.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your business? [Re: ScavengerType] * 1
    #14088024 -

Every single nation in the Mid-East was created by the victors following WW1 when they carved up the Ottoman Empire.  Several nations were created.  Most were Muslim in nature and most had vast petroleum resources.  One tiny little slice of petroleum free desert was granted to a historically persecuted group that had lived in the area for millenia.  They accepted the other in their midst who had been there.  They were beset by murderous incompetents all 'round.  They prevailed and slightly increased their holdings.  None of the nations that they prevailed against were willing to accommodate their fellow citizens who lost property because of their aggression.  Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria.  All said "fuck you" to their brethren.  Now useful idiot retards in the comfortable West think that there is somehow a cadre of wronged murderers.  The monumental idiot, Helen Thomas, said that Israel should be relocated to Germany.  I got a better idea.  Let's carve a Palestinian state out of middle Europe.  All the collaborator cuntries, not just Germany.  Let all those useless idiots get a taste of the alternative. 

Ghandi apparently didn't know that England was conquered by the French around 1066.


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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your business? [Re: Icelander]
    #14089046 -

Whatever, I reckon that international law ought to mean something as well. That collective punishment ought to stop being dished out on Palestinians, besides the only reason they're able to kill much of anyone including american citizens who protest their settlements is because of all the US aid.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your business? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14089081 -

Maps

There never was a Palestine is a common myth perpatrated by the Zionists.   

There's no point in arguing with people who believe the craziest bullshit.

Why is there a wall around the West Bank?

What about the illegal blockade of the Gaza Strip? 

What about murdering an American citizen when the Israelis stormed a humanitarian ship flying a US flag in international waters and started executing the passengers?

You people who buy the Zionist line and then spread their bullshit should be ashamed.

What's happening in PALESTINE is genocide.  Period.



You don't acquire land through self-defense.


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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your business? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14089250 -

ScavengerType said:
Whatever, I reckon that international law ought to mean something as well. That collective punishment ought to stop being dished out on Palestinians, besides the only reason they're able to kill much of anyone including american citizens who protest their settlements is because of all the US aid.



International law doesn't mean much imo.  It's just more politics and it gets put aside and picked up again at the convienence of those with the power.

I personally understand the horror one can feel when witnessing the struggles that go on in nature due to our nature.  I also believe it's always been this way for the human primate and will continue to be far into the foreseeable future.  We can sit here and discuss it and rail about it till we're blue but that isn't going to effect it very dramatically except to make us believe we're taking some kind of meaningful stand on a position.  Maybe I'm completely jaded but I don't see a solution.  Every time the whoever is the president opens his lying mouth about this he's pretending that a solution is just around the corner but nothing ever changes.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your business? [Re: Icelander]
    #14089485 -

Any one of these oil-rich predominately Arab countries in the Middle East could help the Palestinians with MILLIONS in humanitarian aid but they'd rather supply them with guns, ammo and continue their proxy war with the Palestinians on the losing end. Don't be fooled by the so-called head of state "supporters" of Palestine because they are as much of the problems as anything.


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+1 Post ٩(̾๏̮̮̃̾๏̃̾)۶


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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14090073 -

Israel as a nation does not have the right to exist.



it is not because both side do not do terroristic dehumanization of innocent life. but because the zionist were the first one and now, it's a game of either dissuading violence or repairing relationship.

can someone picture what will the bar look like in alcoholic rural border towns between israel and palestine when both side lose so many members of their respective family.

Edited by communeart (03/09/11 12:49 AM)

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: communeart]
    #14090639 -

I kind of suspect The whole situation was a deliberate set up to pit the Jews/political Zionists against the Arab/Muslim world and sympathizers.

For a kind of "order out of chaos" thing.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: communeart]
    #14090759 -

ScavengerType said:
Johnm are you serious that you don't know that Israelis have stolen a lot of the land that they currently occupy? Do you not know that the "settlers" are not settling unoccupied land? Hasn't someone before shown you the maps of how much land was taken away? You do know that most of that was taken away without compensation, right?



When did I say any of this?  Far from being "serious", I don't think I've said any of this at all.  You seem to presume some underlying belief structure rather than simply take the question as it is.  To ask what the problem is doesn't presuppose that no problem can be identified without help.

Quote:
Johnm are you serious that you don't know that Israelis have stolen a lot of the land that they currently occupy?


What specifically are you referring to and what does it have to do with zionism or Israel.  And cut out the "are you serious" preumptions.



communeart said:
can you be less biased?



:rolleyes:


What have I said thats biased?  I asked some questions- seems you must have some tremendous bias to underlie the presuppositions you've projected onto me, yet failed to prove, when the questions asked were bare and without any overt favoritism (least that I know of or that you've shown).

Simply:  what bias?  What evidence of this bias are you speaking of?

Bleh, I'm pretty disgusted that to simply ask what is a highly pertinent question (are the anti-zionists/israel folks correct in their criticism?) in world politics and news, is to invite all sorts of appeals to incredulity:  apparently if you don't make an overt deceleration of hatred for various beleifs/acts you must be both ignorant of their existance and convinced of their absence.  :whatever: 


Now, if anyone would care to actually adress the question, that would be peachy.

(feel free to argue bias or evil or whatever, just make a damn argument rather than a song and dance like the above two posters.  Also, I've not read the whole thread yet, so I don't mean to suggest nobody replying thus far has addressed the question)

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your business? [Re: amilibertine]
    #14090794 -

> There never was a Palestine is a common myth perpatrated by the Zionists.   

There has been a region, composed of land owned by several different countries, known as Palestine, but there has not been a country or state known as Palestine.  A good analogy is "the Rockies" in the US.  Nobody would confuse "the Rockies" with a state, even though everybody (in the US) knows the location of the region.

> There's no point in arguing with people who believe the craziest bullshit.

The craziest bullshit, such as Palestine existing as an autonomous state or country?

> apparently if you don't make an overt deceleration of hatred for various beleifs/acts you must be both ignorant of their existance and convinced of their absence.

Odd how the subject of Israel brings out the worst in people.  I consider myself fairly unbiased, which means most people believe that I am pro-Israel and a handful believe that I am pro-Palestinian.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14090820 -

zappaisgod said:
If the Pallys stop fighting with Israel there will be no war.  If the Israelis stop fighting the Pallys there will be no Israel.  I find that tobe a fundamental distinction.



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That's me on the street with a violin under my chin. Playing with a grin, singing gibberish.

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: F0SS1L]
    #14090951 -

Quote:
What have I said thats biased?  I asked some questions- seems you must have some tremendous bias to underlie the presuppositions you've projected onto me, yet failed to prove, when the questions asked were bare and without any overt favoritism (least that I know of or that you've shown).

Simply:  what bias?  What evidence of this bias are you speaking of?

Bleh, I'm pretty disgusted that to simply ask what is a highly pertinent question (are the anti-zionists/israel folks correct in their criticism?) in world politics and news, is to invite all sorts of appeals to incredulity:  apparently if you don't make an overt deceleration of hatred for various beleifs/acts you must be both ignorant of their existance and convinced of their absence.  :whatever:


Now, if anyone would care to actually adress the question, that would be peachy.

(feel free to argue bias or evil or whatever, just make a damn argument rather than a song and dance like the above two posters.  Also, I've not read the whole thread yet, so I don't mean to suggest nobody replying thus far has addressed the question)


i am sorry, i just found your question immediatly putting you on the side of zionism. in fact i could not find a way to answer the question without defending israel.

i personally am tired of the conflict which is full of angry children taking the side of palestinians and a large number of 40 year old moron who support breaching of human rights.

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: communeart]
    #14091032 -

Yes well israel as an identity inevitably was going to cause massive uproar due to the configuration of middle-eastern politics in a time where human rights are different than before , colonialism was not a taboo back then, i mean nobody gave a fuck about slavery and racism but it was both illegal. Both the jewish community and the arab middle-eastern communities had in my opinion phony leaders to begin with, what was the will of the people back then? what is the will of the people in the middle east now? The zionist lied too much to their own people in order to get into a stable military position. they also very successfully used intelligence operation etc. Al-Nakba is another good example of zionist propaganda that people including the left and those who refuse to condemn it believed for so long.

the only one left defending the new world order should be the decadent feminist and their fat american zionist pig husband. or i guess maybe i'm wrong :/.

Anyway back to the topic. I think the Main reason is the Blockade, we Forget it. there are too many human rights violation from both sides and the problem in my opinion comes down to terminology of who is a terrorist or not etc.

A very good example are the soldiers killed in the gaza territory, are they soldiers or policeman? because that's what it is in countries without a stable police force, it's similar to gangs as they are on rooftops watching over stuff.

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: communeart]
    #14091038 -

Seuss said:
> apparently if you don't make an overt deceleration of hatred for various beleifs/acts you must be both ignorant of their existance and convinced of their absence.

Odd how the subject of Israel brings out the worst in people.  I consider myself fairly unbiased, which means most people believe that I am pro-Israel and a handful believe that I am pro-Palestinian.



Yeah, I've seen the same.

I think it is helpful to consider the allegations of various groups directly, and that's seldom done to the extent I've seen: generally the claims are simply repeated by news media covering the topic, or the discussions/editorials are arguing for a particular point of view and ignore inconvenient facts.

The claim that Israel's existance is a wrong is kind of hard for me to understand given the land was obtained in a defensive war (to the extent I can figure) and voluntarily granted to the would-be state.  I've not really heard any criticism of this view, despite it seeming to be integral to the notion of the state's existance being a wrong by itself.



communeart said:
i am sorry, i just found your question immediatly putting you on the side of zionism. in fact i could not find a way to answer the question without defending israel.

i personally am tired of the conflict which is full of angry children taking the side of palestinians and a large number of 40 year old moron who support breaching of human rights.



My question ment what it said.  As I've said above, the claims often made as to the wrongfulness of Zionism and Israel as a state seem to often be conclusory without much explanation.  I was hoping I could hear some explanation as to these matters and have a debate on them directly.  This would seem helpful as the issue is commonly raised in this forum as side issues.  Lets have it out and hear why Israel is wrong or why zionism is wrong.

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: johnm214]
    #14091063 -

Quote:
My question ment what it said.  As I've said above, the claims often made as to the wrongfulness of Zionism and Israel as a state seem to often be conclusory without much explanation.  I was hoping I could hear some explanation as to these matters and have a debate on them directly.  This would seem helpful as the issue is commonly raised in this forum as side issues.  Lets have it out and hear why Israel is wrong or why zionism is wrong.




I think i have named some religious one and i think religious antisemitism is unseperable from religious anti-zionism.

Muslims see their fight against israel as part of the fight to get rid of corrupt middle eastern regimes, so don't do the mistake of saying the opposite.


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Kol ʕode ba-levav penimah
Nefesh yehoudi homiyah,
ʕOde lo avdah tiqwaténou

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: communeart]
    #14091075 -

> Muslims see their fight against israel as part of the fight to get rid of corrupt middle eastern regimes, so don't do the mistake of saying the opposite.

I don't buy that at all.  How does Israel's existence have anything to do with corrupt regimes in Muslim countries in the Middle East?


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Seuss]
    #14091105 -

Quote:
I don't buy that at all.  How does Israel's existence have anything to do with corrupt regimes in Muslim countries in the Middle East?


I would say that both side are correct , those who support israel support the democratic capitalist in the middle-east, while those who want to destroy israel are usually supported by iran. either way they are both revolutionary or terrorist material. it's another mindfuck on top of religion since you can legitimately say that israel would intervene in a pro-democratic coup in a country close to it. just like many are trying to argue in lybia.

i predict most countries with revolutions going on right now to turn into a model similar to turkey, while iran is a more revolutionary jihadist government, it is far from the taliban or al-qaeda.

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: communeart]
    #14091147 -

communeart said:
Quote:
I don't buy that at all.  How does Israel's existence have anything to do with corrupt regimes in Muslim countries in the Middle East?


I would say that both side are correct , those who support israel support the democratic capitalist in the middle-east, while those who want to destroy israel are usually supported by iran. either way they are both revolutionary or terrorist material.


huh?  How then would those who support Israel by those means be "revolutionary" or "terrorist"?

Quote:
it's another mindfuck on top of religion since you can legitimately say that israel would intervene in a pro-democratic coup in a country close to it. just like many are trying to argue in lybia.


I don't get the point here.

Has anyone explained why Israel's existance is wrong- as Iran and many others have claimed?

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: johnm214]
    #14091295 -

zionist pro-israel think-tanks are basically writing the book on middle-east occupation, and we find the american media(and thus americans) constantly parroting the same exact narrative,  that muslim nations are terrorist, and America must take action against them. 

israel has a history of framing muslims through false-flags(lavon affair, USS Liberty, al-queda impersonations) and using false intelligence to keep this narrative going.  and also operating large spy-rings within the U.S. going largely unchecked.  FOX recently did a segment specifically on this subject and it was pulled off the air.  why?

israel also has a significant amount of influence over U.S. government.  take a look at some of the top members of our recent presidential administrations, (and the foreign policy decisions made by those admins)  you would be quite willfully ignorant to not see they are acting with significant interest in israel.

i don't really have a stance on if israel should exist or not or whose land it rightfully belongs to, i just think America should cease military aid to israel immediately, as it doesn't benefit us in any way and is directly contributing to death and destruction and violent occupation.  i think we have enough blood on our hands fighting israel's enemies.

p.s.  the title of this thread is pretty funny when you look at the endless stream of threads over muslim nations and what should be done about them.

this is just my opinion but i think it goes to show the influence on how we generally think about geopolitics.  if it's about iran, iraq, islam, al-queda, etc.  the content and claims therein is self-evident, met with very little or no investigation.  however if it's about Israel it is met with skepticism. "what about israel?  what do you mean? prove it!"

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Grav] * 2
    #14091310 -

i just think America should cease military aid to israel immediately

I'm guessing that would be a death sentence for Israel and why isn't having a friendly country with nukes in the middle east an advantage for america? (not saying anything is right or wrong here)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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