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A respectful question for our Christians.
    #25860413 -

Which of the Holy Trinity (Father - Son - Holy Spirit) has your highest allegiance?


Is it the FATHER (the LORD of Mozes' time, JHVH)
Is it the SON (Jesus Christ of Nazareth)
Is it the HOLY SPIRIT (the God of Genesis 1:1)

They are three faces of the same diamond, but which face most strongly appeals to you in your everyday worship?

If you are not even a Christian at all but apply the metaphor and wish to answer it in a way that fits the everyday reality of your personal faith best.

By all means, go at length.

.
What is your faith?
You may choose only one
Which of the three God-images has your highest allegiance?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from 03/08/19 02:21 AM until the end of time
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: Asante] * 3
    #25860506 -

The aspects in brackets don't apply to what they ultimately represent.

Jesus 'Christ', is one such son who instructed that all of mankind is the son (fragmented) - the second generate of the Godhead.

The Holy Spirit isn't a God.  It's a figurative interface between man (The Son of God) and the Godhead.  It's a 'footprint' and 'thread' which connects man who is divided, to his root.  It is the true, untarnished state of man where the Divine is evidently present, before the presence of indoctrinated 'Sin'('The bite of the apple') which veils it.

Each is complimentary and equal to the whole of what each part represents.

The triangle is not a triangle, any more than the triune is so without its equal points.

Edited by Duncan Rowhl (03/08/19 12:13 PM)

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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #25860907 -

Can we ask god so we dont just spew bullshit around our airways. Oh wait...

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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: LosTresOjos] * 1
    #25864196 -

Ask him what you so wish wrathful one, but the definitions pertaining to theology are already defined for anyone to peruse. :thumbup:

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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: Duncan Rowhl] * 1
    #25864737 -

Why is it called the holy spirit and not the mother?


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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: yeah]
    #25865940 -

I can understand why people might ask that since a Mother is essentially the intermediate between 'Father' and 'Son' which ties in with the earthly generate model.

I'd agree with any definition that allows the Layman to understand better since the mystical terms simply cause miscomprehension, disregard and revolt.

For this point, it's why some of the best renditions effectively outlining the triune principle now stand in the format of video and illustration and are much more absorbable as something to at least consider.

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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: yeah] * 1
    #25866415 -

yeah said:
Why is it called the holy spirit and not the mother?


I DO say "The Father, The Son, and The Holy Mother" during certain prayer or banishing rituals. Some Gnostics did this and they were NOT referring to the Theotokos, the 'Mother of God' as the Eastern Orthodox came to regard Miriam/Mary, the mother of Iesous, but to the feminine aspect of an ostensibly triune God. The "Super-Essential Godhead" however, transcends the triune God as total unity.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #25866522 -

Duncan Rowhl said:
The aspects in brackets don't apply to what they ultimately represent.

Jesus 'Christ', is one such son who instructed that all of mankind is the son (fragmented) - the second generate of the Godhead.

The Holy Spirit isn't a God.  It's a figurative interface between man (The Son of God) and the Godhead.  It's a 'footprint' and 'thread' which connects man who is divided, to his root.  It is the true, untarnished state of man where the Divine is evidently present, before the presence of indoctrinated 'Sin'('The bite of the apple') which veils it.

Each is complimentary and equal to the whole of what each part represents.

The triangle is not a triangle, any more than the triune is so without its equal points.


This must be your own personal theology. It isn't Augustine's, it isn't Pseudo-Dionysus, it isn't the post-modern Christian Existentialist John McQuarrie's either. The Holy Spirit is ostensibly one of three persons in an ostensibly triune God ("Una Substantia, Tres Personas"). The Roman Catholic theology has the metaphorical notion of triangulation, but The Son is not "man," 'He' is the Logos, the eternally generated manifestation of God, "All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made" - (John 1:1-4). It was John and John alone whose theology equated Iesous with the Logos incarnate. John's Prologue (Pro-Logos) stated that "In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him..." Unfortunately, the Logos got translated into one of several Greek meanings, namely "Word."

The Logos was the manifested God (versus the unmanifested Godhead) and John appropriated Philo of Alexandria's writings on the Logos to write this Prologue 90-120 years after Philo. ( Philo lived contemporaneously with Iesous. Funny how someone who wrote a tome on the Logos never wrote about its very incarnation as the man Iesous, who lived not terribly far from Philo in Alexandria, Egypt). However, he also brought to bear the purely hellenistic mythic notion of God taking Incarnation as a demigod, just as Heracles and Dionysus did, their mothers having been ravished by God in their religious myths. Mark, Matthew and Luke did not see Iesous in the same light that John did. Their shared understanding or single view (synoptic) is markedly different from the incarnational notion that overshadowed the Synoptic gospels.

The Eastern Orthodox Church views the eternal procession of the hypostheses in a linear fashion, not a triangulation. They simply appropriated the divine hypostheses of the Neoplatonist Plotinus and changed his personas from The ONE, Nous, and the World Soul to Father, Son Holy Spirit, respectively.  Admittedly, "Plotinus relied heavily on the concept of Logos, but no explicit references to Christian thought can be found in his works, although there are significant traces of them in his doctrine...Plotinus specifically avoided using the term Logos to refer to the second person of his trinity." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LogosThe procession of the personalities (The Filioque) became the reason for the great schism of the Eastern and the Western churches.

The human spirit that interfaces with God via the Holy Spirit is an interesting topic in itself, but as with any talk of spirit, this is strictly metaphorical just as the 'cloven tongues of fire' in the Pentacost event should be understood, or the spirit 'as of a rushing wind' in that Acts 2:3 account. Air and spirit are both pneuma in the Greek, and cloven tongues is what serpents have. The imagery can be associated with tongue and word, and the serpent as a symbol of divine wisdom, as was the brazen serpent that Moses has made to cure the Hebrews of their Gold poisoning from imbibing the 'golden calf' in a magickal solution. Or again, ".. .be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves" - Matthew 10:16.

Lastly, the human spirit is never identified with the Holy Spirit in Christian theology, but I am not sure if this is what you're suggesting. I don't have a problem with heresy ('choice') mind you. I prefer to take leave of much of orthodoxy, including the notion of a Holy Trinity first and foremost. Tertullian concocted the term from three different Divine Names, and Augustine elaborated on the concept. I just like its Neoplatonic antecedent from Plotinus, so I continue to acknowledge it. Iesous never would've agreed to any of this intellectual malarky. I think he might've bitch-slapped Augustine.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25866587 -

Perhaps my own attempts there were in vain too, since I usually place importance on stressing that the 'Son' isn't literal 'Man', nor 'Mankind' but the very essence of it - and not limited to it.

The use of 'mankind' was to suggest that it is all of everyone who especially in the case of conversing with Jesus, discuss and try to comprehend the principle of the Logos.  It is not Jesus alone - and much like the other two aspects of the triune; nor is it flesh.

The Holy Spirit is regarded often as a 'footprint' as stated - an embedded, distant, but paradoxically close memory of something to which we were and are, connected - termed as 'spirit' for its lingering residuality.

Edited by Duncan Rowhl (03/10/19 11:52 PM)

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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: Duncan Rowhl] * 1
    #25866931 -

Three-in-one is not just oil, it is an archetype of particular prominence in the human psyche. Fourness suggests completeness, threeness suggests dynamism, and so instead of C.S. Lewis' childhood imagination of God as an "infinite sea of gray tapioca," the archetypal effect of this paradox - Oneness and Threeness - imparts some unique kind of numinosity on the psyche. Why? I don't understand intellectually because it may not be a datum that the analytical intellect can understand. It nevertheless has a numinous effect and has consequently been taken to be THE symbol for God in a Christian idiom.

However, every time a human psyche attempts to grasp symbolical, metaphorical religious formulations as being literally true in the sense of factual, the assertion is doomed to fail and looks worthless in retrospect (just as Thomas of Aquinas called his Summa Theologica "Straw," at its completion). Even dynamism versus some infinite and eternal monolithic Nothing just clogs the human psyche. The conceptual mind does well to regard the utterly transcendental nature of God OR Godhead as intellectually incomprehensible, and leave it at Mystery.

Your language uses temporal ("lingering") and substantial ('memory"), of a postulated Transcendenz that does not partake of space-time whatsoever. Saying that spirit is 'nothing' is not the same thing as saying that there is no such thing. The modern word for spirit is consciousness or awareness, yet it too does not partake of physical attributes and remains a mystery. I am not embarrassed, ashamed, or feel defeat when I say that Infintude is not comprehensible by finite mental functions. If one could comprehend God, it would not be God.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25867110 -

Language is a limitation pertaining to the otherwise ineffable and such terms, are often valid enough to appeal to the Layman, which is the case to which my contributions have addressed. There is only 'fact' which is regarded in reflection of a proposition - an established hypothesis.  Thankfully, Aquinas took this into consideration during the composition of the Summa Theologica as opposed to dancing around the Mulberry bush, contained and content within his own lexicon, which in turn, rendered a readable and universally comprehensible, if not, attractive text - at least to a large majority of folk ready to face the subject.  C.S. Lewis too is often no exception to this approach. Metaphors are thoroughly vast and rightfully placed, whilst all the while, to the more advanced reader, the essence of what is being communicated is appreciated for its sheer diversity and expanse.

Few people, we'd hope, take 'Father', 'Son' and indeed 'Mother' literally. These are employed as known terms to illustrate clearly a proposed hypothesis.  The consolation is, for those that can't comprehend the proposition, other creative minds bid in their outreach in the interest of extending the principle to the fellow man, in the form of comic books and videos.  Alternative tools which take the liberty to simplify to at least establish a foothold.

Memory is an aspect of space-time and so, you merely propose that eternity cannot be recalled, which represents your own theory, or at least an alternative one. It is proposed, contrary to your belief, that eternity is recallable as a state which always figuratively exists in tandem - hence the figurative 'Thirst for God'. 

'God' is understood to be ultimately unfathomable as an unresolvable principle and paradox true to conceptual dissolution.  This is 101 (or at least it's assumed to be) but that does not render us mute in our efforts.  Theology speaks only theory so again, we revisit the point pertaining to employing the humble tools we have and the best of our efforts.

Edited by Duncan Rowhl (03/11/19 11:41 AM)

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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #25867610 -

You have made a lot of assumptions to get to where you are.

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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: Duncan Rowhl] * 1
    #25868905 -

According to Plato, Socrates said, "I know that I know nothing." Is this an expression of gnosis? It is surely paradoxical. It should be the shibboleth of every theologian, if [s]he wishes to be honest. God is a shorthand Name for Ultimate Reality personified. Beyond the personification we have silence and Mystery.



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: Asante] * 2
    #25872875 -

They are one in the same, so all three.

No human can go to the source without any of the other two in his side.

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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: Whitelighter] * 1
    #25872917 -

Christians use mushrooms 😆? I thought it was witchcraft to them? Of course they'll ignore that part. They only choose to listen to the things they agree with. Everything else God didn't actually mean 🤣.

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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: Shenmue] * 1
    #25873465 -

Shenmue said:
Christians use mushrooms 😆? I thought it was witchcraft to them? Of course they'll ignore that part. They only choose to listen to the things they agree with. Everything else God didn't actually mean 🤣.


What exactly are you trying to say? Christianity is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears then flinging your head into the sand? Is it this?

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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: Shenmue]
    #25873651 -

Shenmue said:
Christians use mushrooms 😆? I thought it was witchcraft to them? Of course they'll ignore that part. They only choose to listen to the things they agree with. Everything else God didn't actually mean 🤣.


Much like yourself only choosing to believe something which you yourself have made up, for the topic isn't related to Christians consuming mushrooms.

Of course, in your frantic bid to criticize Christians, you'll ignore that part..

...and the response to your 'I just assumed' reply, before you give it, is 'No, everyone does not consume mushrooms here'. :thumbup:

Edited by Duncan Rowhl (03/14/19 01:23 PM)

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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: Shenmue]
    #25873724 -

Shenmue said:
Christians use mushrooms 😆? I thought it was witchcraft to them? Of course they'll ignore that part. They only choose to listen to the things they agree with. Everything else God didn't actually mean 🤣.


There are all kinds of Christians, and mushrooms are not necessarily pharmakeia in the meaning of sorcery, but rather "Moksha Medicine," as Aldous Huxley called psychedelics. The world has become smaller than it was at the beginning of the Christian era, we have the benefit of knowing about other religions. Hindus and Zoroastrians knew about A. muscaria, and Amanita muscaria mushroom use has been discovered by illustrations in a basilica. http://distelrath.tripod.com/fabbro.htm Post-modern people can benefit from the knowledge of other religions. Christ [Consciousness] is about universality (catholicity), NOT stupid, exclusivist, tribal affiliations.

Additionally, the Christian mystic Jacob Boehme created a woodcut (below) that was analyzed and described in the book The Apples of Apollo by Carl Ruck et al.. There are stages of Amanita inebriation, stages of mycelial into pinning  and fruiting, and these mushroom stages of development are being associated with the Three Persons of the Christian Trinity (pic below)., Author Daniel Merkur has written books suggesting different veiled references to psychedelic substances, e.g., the "shewbread" in the Holy of Holies in the Tenach (Exodus 30:25-30), and the "manna" in the wilderness (Exodus 16:14). These are speculations, but still worth considering as being possible. The 'holy anointing oil' mentioned in the Tenach mentions "calamus" in at least one translation (KJV) while certain cannabis enthusiasts insist that it must mean cannabis. But Acorus calamus, Sweet Flag, Snake Root, etc. contains TMA, a precursor that becomes Mescaline once metabolized in the liver. Covering one's body with calamus oil might well result in a psychedelic experience. The Cree Indians and other peoples would chew a pencil-thin piece for its energizing and psychedelic effects.

Your unawareness of Christian implementation of mushrooms does not mean that it was not part of history. I am part of history, and I have been baptized as well as have used mushrooms. This use does not nullify my adherence to Christian ethics, nor nullify my faith-stance any more than my use of modern medicine (pharmakeia!) does. Literal, fundamentalist, superstitious 'Christians' are not mature Christians or perhaps even capable of cognitive maturity. They are usually ignorant of multiple levels of scriptural interpretation that the Jewish authors of their scriptures WERE well aware of! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis) Because of their developmentally Concrete Operational Thinking (instead of fully adult Formal Operational Thinking, see Jean Piaget), they take everything concretely (I think, block-headedly), literally. "I am the vine, you are the branches" - John 15:5. OK, Iesous was a grape vine. Maybe some things could be thought of as allegorical, but not the much in my experience.

I would agree with you that Christian' swinging,' for example, is forbidden, but because the modern term "swinging" is not in the Bible, (this is as stupid as it gets), some individuals have Christian swinging parties! Swinging is adultery and very clearly violates Christian ethics! This is 100% unacceptable and Christian swinging is as oxymoronic as is kosher pork! :lol: Mushrooms, like wine, can be used sacramentally or profanely. So can sex. In fact, if everything we  think and say and do isn't consecrated by one's faith-stance, then it's all profane.




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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #25876270 -

I'm trying to offend them. I hate religion. It's time for these people to replace church with mushrooms 😛.

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Re: A respectful question for our Christians. [Re: Shenmue] * 2
    #25876489 -

Shenmue said:
I'm trying to offend them. I hate religion. It's time for these people to replace church with mushrooms 😛.


Then you've made a religion out of mushrooms. Not original, but still religion whosoever idolatrous, but not a religion that is working for you. If you "hate" and are "trying to offend" anyone, you have failed to learn the most essential entheogenic lesson - compassion. If you are not being transformed, all you're doing is indulging your feelings or in novelty. Until your values are transformed you are not learning or growing or helping anyone. :shrug: Oh, did you not realize that is the whole point of entheogens, AND of religion in general?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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