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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: Icelander]
    #12998791 -

yes i am bias and do feel quite strongly about the value people place in scientific reports... not that science doesn't do wonderful things and enhance quality of life, but there are some aspects to life that it cannot touch and without them it would not be worth living.

I am not saying that this is a fault of science.
It is the fault of people whose own biases lead them to privileging science and only science above everything else.


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dripping with fantasy

Edited by quinn (08/03/10 11:55 PM)

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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: quinn]
    #12998816 -

Quote:
...not that science doesn't do wonderful things and enhance quality of life...



Statements like this make me think you do not really understand science, at least not in the way a scientist does.  Science isnt about doing wonderful things and enhancing the quality of life.  Those are just byproducts that the non-scientific public latch onto.  Science is about paving new frontiers in human knowledge and thought by examining and modeling nature.  If the engineer or medical doctor can use it to enhance quality of life, great.

Since we have posted about Feynman so much, consider his quote:
"Physics is like sex.  Sure it may give us practical results, but that isnt really why we do it. "

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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: ModusPwnd]
    #12998966 -

I said that preemptively.

But then in response to what you said...

Feynmans finds the 'practice of physics' adds quality to his life. Thats fine.
In your case measuring the world gives your life quality. Fine.
In other cases art, love, religion, etc etc gives their life quality...

All these things are only as valuable as you make them. There is no need to then privilege one kind over any other...


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dripping with fantasy

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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: quinn]
    #12999289 -

So I am to respect all philosophies, emotions and subjects equally?  Forget that, I personally pick and choose what I respect - and its rarely equal.

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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: ModusPwnd]
    #12999326 -

but why do you respect science?


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dripping with fantasy

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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: quinn] * 1
    #13000225 -

One reason I respect it is that it can be a good antidote to superstition and religious oppression. Were it not for science we would likely still be in a very dark age and even more under the thumb of the priests. And most of us would be dirt poor surfs eking out a pathetic living.

You may have no idea how science has saved your ass. However I also see how science, used incorrectly by ignorant humanity is going to be just another means to our suffering. But as you said that's not the fault of science.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: Icelander]
    #13000468 -

"Were it not for science we would likely still be in a very dark age and even more under the thumb of the priests. And most of us would be dirt poor surfs eking out a pathetic living."

:lol:

This depends on the system of measurement that we draw the values 'pathetic' from. Funny that you out of all people do not realize that this has not changed much....80% of the pop. on this earth utilizes 20 % of the worlds resources. Over 1 fifth of the population uses about less than a dollar a day, over 37 000 people starve to death every single day and it has been this way for decades. How is this any better than the serf days?

:congrats:

This was just about the biggest slip up i have witnessed from you so far.....

:shrug:


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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: AlphaFalfa] * 1
    #13000574 -

You obviously haven't read about the lifestyles in the dark ages before scientific discoveries on hygiene and sanitation. :lol:

The average poor today have it better by a long shot. At least in first world countries and likely in most countries.

And frankly often the poor are poor because they are dumb. Not that they don't have an opportunity to better their lot. A serf in the past was pretty much stuck being a serf.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #24822601 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Um, can't think of anything...





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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: WScott]
    #24822727 -

Auto-Summary
Inductive reasoning forms hypotheses and theories, while deductive reasoning applies them to specific situations. Beliefs require no external evidence, while knowledge requires external verification. Most people combine beliefs with factual knowledge, often leading to dogmatic thinking. Scientific facts stand alone without the need for beliefs, and reliable evidence does not depend on human beliefs. Beliefs do not enhance the usefulness or factual nature of knowledge, and autonomous systems like computers and drones demonstrate that knowledge can exist without beliefs. Humans can learn to gather and act on knowledge without owning beliefs, providing a greater advantage for advancing knowledge.

Certainty isn't the goal of inductive reasoning, it's inferring a high probability that it is true.

Quote:
Inductive reasoning has its place in the scientific method. Scientists use it to form hypotheses and theories. Deductive reasoning allows them to apply the theories to specific situations.







Quote:
The two charts above represent a visual abstract concept of the differences between the paths of belief and the path to knowledge. Both paths represent a form of thinking or mental activity. Note that the chart on the left shows a convergence point at the bottom where simple beliefs and thoughts coexist. At this level, they appear virtually the same with the only difference amounting to its semantic designation ("believe" can substitute for "think" and vise versa). However as each path progresses, they diverge; the path of belief progresses towards intransigence and the path of knowledge leads to factual knowledge. Each progresses as a matter of degree and each forms an independent path. For example, beliefs requires no external evidence whatsoever (examples: belief in ghosts, gods, astrology, etc.) The path of knowledge requires no reliance on beliefs (examples: the observation that the earth orbits the sun and airplanes fly, etc. appears regardless of whether you believe in them or not.) However, the path towards knowledge requires external verification (observation and testing) whereas the path of belief does not. The path towards workable knowledge (facts) must agree with nature if we wish to utilize it. The path of belief requires no agreement with nature at all (although it might coincide with it).

Unfortunately, the usual practice of thinking involves the combination of beliefs with theory and factual knowledge (see the right chart). Most people tend to own beliefs of facts and knowledge, including perhaps the most rational people of all-- scientists and philosophers. A hypothesis or a theory may lead a scientist to strongly believe in his or her theories, the verification of test results may lead them to have faith in the results, and an established fact may lead some scientists to dogmatically hold to its verification (even if later evidence contradicts it). Thus even a scientist can attach beliefs to theories, faith to verification, and dogma to facts. Although scientists rarely approach intransigence (although some do), they usually believe in their data and theories and most philosophers believe in their philosophies and most of them will die with their beliefs. As Maxwell Planck once said, "A scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."  Fortunately, scientific dogmatic beliefs do not appear as prevalent as it once did in the last two centuries. Scientists like Freud, Jung, Velikovsky, and even Einstein held stubborn beliefs bordering on inflexible religious-like thinking, even when presented with evidence that contradicted their beliefs. I suspect that much of the reduced degree of dogma in the scientific communitiy today results in better communication (especially through the internet), and a broader understanding of the sciences around them, and a humbling realization that some other scientist will call them out on their theories, but it still occurs to an unnecessary degree in my opinion.

If facts about nature come from nature itself, then every scientific fact can stand as the evidence alone and the theories that explain those facts. At no time do we need beliefs to understand facts and theories. Nature occurs without human beliefs and so does reliable evidence. And once we understand our facts and theories we call it knowlege. There simply exists no apparent necessity for attaching beliefs to knowledge.

Think about the following: Regardless of how strongly one has attached faith to scientific facts, no matter how religious the disposition of a scientist, there has never appeared a single workable theory or scientific fact that required the concept of a god or superstitious idea. Not a single workable mathematical equation contains a symbol for a "creator." There occurs not the slightest evidence for ghosts in our machines or in our bodies. Even the most ardent non-believers can live their lives in complete accord with nature and live as long as the most fanatical believer. The same holds true for non-religious beliefs and in spite of the temporary mental comfort that belief might bring, (as do drugs) then what purpose can belief serve in the establishment of useful knowledge about the world? Note that when a person dies, so goes his or her beliefs, but if that person lived as a scientist and provided a world with a workable piece of knowlege about nature, then only the knowlege remains useful. The beliefs during the person's lifetime have no bearing, whatsoever, on the usefulness of the knowlege that he or she brought into the world.

Now you might argue that the knowlege brought to us by persons no longer living still requires people to believe in the knowlege that they brought, but on what grounds and to what degree?

"Have you ever noticed.... Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?" --George Carlin

I find it interesting to observe the state of belief in people. They most always see the problems of fanatical belief above them on the chart, but they never accept the disbelief of those below them. Believers always retain just the right amount of belief, it seems, and they unconsciously put themselves in a kind of self-centered, subjective dogma. I contend that most of us do not own beliefs of every kind and, indeed, we disbelieve more than we believe. Just as some believers have fewer beliefs than others, non-believers simply sit at the bottom of the scale. If you can, temporarily, put yourself outside of your own beliefs, you can question why you dismiss the beliefs of others, while perhaps understanding why non-believers dismiss yours.

The degree problem goes away once you understand that the amount of belief says nothing about the usefulness or factual nature of knowledge. If you squint your eyes, pray, or through sheer willpower force your belief to strengthen, will that improve your knowledge? (It can certainly produce falsehoods, but how can it improve on knowledge?) Conversely, if you act on your knowledge without belief, will that change the status of your knowledge? If you think knowledge requires belief between the extremes of strong belief and no belief, then just what degree of belief do you think it necessary for the proper understanding of knowledge?

Some people have argued that all knowledge represents forms of beliefs. Well it certainly can if you believe that and, no doubt, most people do believe that knowledge describes a belief, but that doesn't mean it has to. Even Plato and Socrates defined knowledge as "justified true belief," but this only describes what I already mentioned above (combining beliefs with knowledge), and again, this certainly serves far better than a belief without knowledge (I suppose Plato might call that unjustified false belief). But can knowledge exist without beliefs at all? Yes. And I can give examples.

I could use examples of animals such as insects or reptiles but someone might object on the grounds that they possess some form of consciousness and beliefs, so I will give an example of non-life entities: Autonomous computers. Autonomous drones, for example can take-off, fly and land without a human pilot or even a remote pilot. These aircraft take in information from the world around them through cameras and sensors, process that information, make algorithmic decisions and act on them by navigating, taking photos, or sending lethal bombs to kill enemy targets. To give another example, IBM's computer called Watson (also autonomous) defeated the best Jeopardy players in the world. Its designers made it capable of understanding human language and knowledge by data mining documents, dictionaries, anthologies, and encyclopedias and deriving a correct answer. These computer systems, in fact, posses some knowledge about the world around them, otherwise they would not have the ability to carry out their tasks. These Autonomous computers  have no consciousness or emotions, so they cannot possibly have beliefs. Knowledge can indeed exist without beliefs. Humans, too, can act on knowledge even without consciousness. Sleep walking, driving a car while having a conversation, for example, can result in actions from subconscious knowledge even without that person consciously knowing what has happened.

Of course humans do not live like computers and we grow up with beliefs, perhaps even ingrained into our genes, but I submit that to suggest that an intelligent conscious human cannot understand knowledge without beliefs has no bases. Humans have a unique ability to understand abstractions and even abstractions about abstractions (metacognition) At least some humans have that ability (more on this below). One can understand how a belief can adversely affect knowledge and thusly learn to act on knowledge without owning beliefs. Nor do I claim that all people have the ability to disown beliefs. Perhaps some people can't, even if they wanted to. It certainly seems that some people, especially highly religious people, do not have that ability. Perhaps their genetic and/or cultural upbringing forever prevents them from doing so, I don't know. However, to suggest that every human must have beliefs belies the very fact that some of us don't.

I submit that some, if not most, conscious human beings can learn to gather, understand, and accumulate knowledge and act on it without owning a single belief and that this provides far more of an advantage for the advancement of knowledge than a disadvantage.

https://www.nobeliefs.com/beliefs.htm




--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: sudly]
    #24822890 -

Science rules.

Materialist/positivist dogma/scientism pushed as genuine inquiry is garbage, however.


--------------------
"Take it easy, dude. But TAKE it!" - Terence McKenna

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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: Frenetic Zetetic]
    #24822917 -

Frenetic Zetetic said:
Science rules.

Materialist/positivist dogma/scientism pushed as genuine inquiry is garbage, however.



In being able to utilise nature, we have come a great distance..
Quote:
The path of knowledge requires no reliance on beliefs (examples: the observation that the earth orbits the sun and airplanes fly, etc. appears regardless of whether you believe in them or not.) However, the path towards knowledge requires external verification (observation and testing) whereas the path of belief does not. The path towards workable knowledge (facts) must agree with nature if we wish to utilize it.



I don't think we should be constrained by the dogmas of those who came before us and I don't think it is harmful to take lessons from the collective history of mankind.

Science is all about genuine inquiry..


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: sudly]
    #24823024 -

science brought me lsd
I like science
science did not bring me a flying car yet
I may choose santa clause over science if he does not get his shit together, and hurry up already.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: sudly]
    #24823047 -

I agree. Great quote.


--------------------
"Take it easy, dude. But TAKE it!" - Terence McKenna

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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: WScott]
    #24823558 -

WScott said:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Um, can't think of anything...







Sounds like the words of someone who doesn’t understand science.

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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: Thanatos10]
    #24824304 -

I thought it sounded like someone that recognizes the limits of science within the context of it being a conceptual framework by which to understand the universe coherently.


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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: WScott]
    #24824915 -

Not sure how scientific reasoning becomes discursive, I mean that's why there are different disciplines in science. It may be complicated at times but it's based upon coherent and consistent reasoning.

Knowledge excludes facts now? I really don't get the last part with plastic form and whatnot.

Science is a conceptual framework that allows us to utilise nature for the benefit of our individual and collective being. There is no other way to understand the universe coherently.

The limits of science are expanded with each new study, invention and discovery and this trend has continued for centuries with even greater expansions of our understanding over the past few decades.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: WScott]
    #24825089 -

WScott said:
I thought it sounded like someone that recognizes the limits of science within the context of it being a conceptual framework by which to understand the universe coherently.



The first sentence, actually the first phrase, is absurd "Science alone is untrue"... is anybody awake here? - that is pure bullshit.
As if all religions agreed, politics was honest, business wasn't cut throat, and war solved problems.

Science of course has several meanings but loosely speaking, the endeavor does produce concrete results, and is not just a "conceptual framework" for 'understanding', or myth making.
Every time a mechanic repairs a car and employs logical troubleshooting, that is scientific method in action.
Our whole civilization and culture run on the concrete results of science. To pretend otherwise is simply to join the ranks of the ignorant, either because of laziness in thought or sentimentality. Many who who posture as being more sensitive souls than  cruel heartless science would not be here were it not for science.

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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: laughingdog]
    #24825100 -

And as regards the first sentence religion is notorious, is based in fact on the premise of exclusivity -  not science - which requests multiple checks on veracity: experimental replication, controls, often multiple large studies, and peer review.

a pure bullshit statement

Failure to employ critical thinking, indeed failure to have ever learned it, is what is leading this country to ruin. Folks who swallow this swill, and much other similar folly whole,  impoverish their own lives on a regular basis.

Sort of sad, it seemed homo sapiens had so much promise.

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Re: Why science sucks! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24825219 -

redgreenvines said:
I may choose santa clause over science if he does not get his shit together, and hurry up already.



I like this. :yesnod:


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As far as I assume to know...

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