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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: Jellric]
    #2154705 -

Swami, the thing is, about a week ago, I had a gut feeling that you were going to post this. That kind of pokes a hole in your defense.


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"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----

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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: Swami]
    #2154734 -

There is no standard Swami dodge. Very "clever" though.

Of course there is.  Otherwise you wouldn't be dodgy.

I did all this research before the internet. But you can probably find a link. As Mr. Mushrooms would say, "Do your own research." However. some facts are readily apparent. The Hindenburg and the Titantic were filled to capacity.

If YOU make an argument it is up to YOU to defend it.

More importantly however, I did a study of US airplanes that went down and Amtrak trains that derailed from 1965 to 1985. Checked the average passenger load for the flight in question and for the previous year's average. No statistical difference. Checked cancellations as maybe the intuitive ones were more aware and were replaced by lemmings. No statistical difference in cancellations.

Of course the Titanic and the airplanes were full or equal to capacity.

They were filled with non-believers.  Anyone with intuition would have decided not to travel on those days.

And that's a good thing I think.

Sheesh, I gotta school you on everything.  :rolleyes: 

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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: Swami]
    #2154740 -

Hmm. Your stats are quite twisted, at least from my viewpoint!

Let's see if we can't find a little Clarity, hmm?

You seem to be applying a fantastical definition to "intuition". Intuition is nothing magical. It is not something that is hard to understand :smirk:

Intuition is simply a non-logical leap in problem-solving, brought about by something either separate from, or only bordering, conscious thought.

What exactly it is I will leave up to further discussion, as my own ideas are still only conjecture.

The examples are silly. The first has more to do with human emotion than with intuition - that of "reading" people (applying morality judgements). The second you have twisted from how it really relates to Intuition to some "magic fortune-teller". Intuition is not a crystal ball! However it does, when highly developed, give very strong hints about the immediate future. It's the process of applying knowlede to what is currently happening, and seeing the patterns. Nothing magical, Swami. The last point falls with what I just said, too. Intuition needs some information to work with. A plane coming at the building doesn't give my intuition much time to gather information before it hits :smirk: 


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: Swami]
    #2154745 -

Quote:
Which is it? Your statements are contradictory.



Oh, come on. my statements are only contradictory when you take them out of context like that. I'm not going to justify my qualifier to you a second time. Go back and read what I said again if you are having trouble understanding how those two statements fit together.

Quote:
This statement points out your ignorance. A mass of people do not need to have the ability for it to show up. The mere existence of SOME people having intuition would be a blip in the statistics.


Not if those few people arent represented in your sample because of some intervening factor. Maybe people with intuition don't take trains or airplanes at all.

Quote:
DoctorJ: But i do think that cultivating one's intuition goes against the grain of our society.

Swami: More dead filler.




No, its not dead filler at all. You're looking at human intuitive ability through the lens of western civilization. I'm saying that our society might have a skewing effect on the results by being counter-intuitive by its very nature. In other words, maybe the abscence of intuition of train wrecks is a function of our society and not a function of basic human ability. Sorry, SWAMI, nxt time I'll do a better job of connecting the dots for you, since you seem unwilling to do it yourself.

Quote:
I see it is impossible for you to keep it non-personal nor to even get your facts straight. Go back and read if you so choose. There was nothing that told people what to think nor was it a class on logic. Lack of follow through by the majority of those signing up was why I cancelled it.



Apparently it was necessary for me to get personal in order to make you realize that my effectiveness in teaching intuition to others is a pretty poor predictor of the existence and validity of cultivated intuition itself. You gave me a shitty ultimatum, and I gave it right back to you so you could see how shitty it was for yourself. Excuse me for using a personal example to get my point across. But you're kind of inviting it when you dish out crap like that. Oh, and I do consider lack of student intrest to be a fialure on the part of the teacher. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the subject that the teacher is trying to teach is invalid.

Quote:
But we have no way of knowing that the author has any more knowledge nor ability than anyone else. All we know is that the author can get a book published.


Agreed. But the point is to get people thinking about it. They can read books, think about them, use what they feel is valid, and discard the rest.

Quote:
How to make it simple for you. Some claim intuition exists. This belief MUST be based on some observation - Yes or No?




yes

Quote:
Can others observe the same (or a similar) thing - Yes or No?




yes

Quote:
Is this repeatable - Yes or No?




Not necessarily- psychic abilities are a bitch like that, but it doesnt mean they dont exist.

Quote:
Are their other possible explanantions - Yes or No?



Of course. There are always other possible explanations.

Quote:
This type of inquiry has led to most all discoveries. At no time were any hoops involved.


No, that type of inquiry has led to the confirmation of most discoveries. Speculation and imagination leads to the discovery itself. And I don't have a problem with the tests, but I do have a problem with assuming that failing these tests neccesarily invalidates the claim. You are in danger of making type 2 errors.



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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: trendal]
    #2154949 -

Let's see if we can't find a little Clarity, hmm?
OK. Sounds good.

What exactly it is I will leave up to further discussion, as my own ideas are still only conjecture.
Thank you for the (very) little Clarity.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: Jellric]
    #2154970 -

I think Swami cancelling the class without notice says more about him ...
No need to think. The records are there. I stated that I would hold that class if sufficient people were interested. Then I asked people to check in with me when they completed each exercise. I deemed a class of two to be insufficient. To date, other than non-participants complaining, I have had (amazingly enough) only two people requesting continuation. If I had 10 I would give of my time.

the participants who seemed willing, if understandably unsure of what was expected of them.
1. Keep a journal
2. Do the exercise
3. Report back when completetd.

I can see how that might be confusing to some.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: ]
    #2154997 -

Now I have got you; not that you will admit it of course as cleverness ifs more important than honesty.

They were filled with non-believers. Anyone with intuition would have decided not to travel on those days.

So the intuitive ones "see" so far into the future that a cancellation is not even an option. (So the future is fixed and free-will does not exist else the intuitors would be processing data up-to-the-minute and therefore might conceivably cancel - hence showing up on statistics.)

One of the popular claims of intuitors is last-minute avoidance of danger which counters your far-seeing, non-cancelling, flight-avoiding intuitors.

So which is it?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: Swami]
    #2155196 -

jeez I give up.

I suppose even if my points were recognized, they would just be cut up and a few words taken out of context to somehow disprove me, show contradictions, or support opposite claims.


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Blas'?trid (bl?s tr?d)
    n.  3rd generation derivitave of a combination of 'bastard' and 'blasted'.  Used as both an insult or an expletive.
    ex.  Blastrid!

Stereopattern  <--My music.

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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: Blastrid]
    #2155220 -

What SPECIFICALLY was taken out of context?

As to "cutting up" a statement, do you HONESTLY believe that it is easier to respond to an entire post consisting of several paragraphs without pointing out WHICH point one is repsonding to? Which method has greater CLAIRTY?

(I intuit I will not get a straight answer to these v-e-r-y- simple questions.)


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: Swami]
    #2155408 -

Quote:
Swami said:"It is called "predictability and pattern recognition."



Wouldn't this be a definition of intuition? For the sake of clarity, let me add a few words to that sentence. Intuition is "a subconscious mechanic of the human mind, enabling a person to recognise patterns and apply them".

Swami, if you're so hung up on clarity, how's this for an idea: start threads on a subject with definitions of the words you're going to use. Intuition intuitively means a lot of different things to different people, and if you don't clearly define and limit the subject of conversation, how can there be any clear, non-linguistic discussion?


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

Edited by Alan Stone (12/03/03 04:00 PM)

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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2155445 -

Not really. I do not "intuit" that the sun will come up tomorrow, but I strongly believe so based upon a consistent historical pattern.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: trendal]
    #2155462 -

so true... another example of a thing being "defined" out of existence.


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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: Swami]
    #2155467 -

According to your original non-definition of intuition, "predicting the sun will come up tomorrow" would be an intuitive act.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2155480 -

well I don't know about that, we could certainly come up with that prediction through logic couldn't we?

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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2155508 -

Quote:
Myth 2: Intuition helps in foretelling the immediate future



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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2155526 -

Those were not MY defintions even though I started the thread. Those were things claimed on these boards by others.

Webster

in?tu?i?tion:

The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes; immediate cognition.

Knowledge gained by the use of this faculty; a perceptive insight.

A sense of something not evident or deducible; an impression.




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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2155540 -

according to Webster's:

intuition:
1 : quick and ready insight
2 a : immediate apprehension or cognition b : knowledge or conviction gained by intuition c : the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference

in the context of this thread, the relevent definition is 2c

if it is possible to predict something through rational thought (like the rising of the sun), intuition does not apply.


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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: Swami]
    #2155546 -

damn you beat me to it

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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2155558 -

Why so surprised IG? :stoned: 


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Intuition fails the reality test [Re: Swami]
    #2155621 -

nothing you do surprises me. you've always been predictable.. or consistent if you prefer...


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