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Offlineguitarmon
musician

Registered: 11/05/03
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Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics?
    #2081992 - 11/07/03 06:49 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Not in our lifetimes will our primative technology be advanced enough to drag our delicate shells fast enough thru space for any real significant space exploration. Why even try to drag our fragile bodies around anyway ... when it might be possible to travel with only our minds?

Do you think its possible to travel and/or visit other dimensions and/or places via the use/help of shrooms/acid or whatever drugs? Traveling using the mind/consciousness?

Similar to how the 'spice' was used in the DUNE novels? (not sure if thats exactly what the 'spice' was used for ... but anyways *shrug*)

String theory states that there are multiple dimensions all around us ... very close to us ... we just can see or get to them.

If you can 'think' it, or 'conceptualize it' ... than its theoretically possible ... right?


To be honest with ya'll ... this is one of the reasons I wanted to use shrooms ... to explore, not only my mind ... but the universe and its mysteries. I think its possible. I mean to try ... I guess thats where the term psyconaut came from.

What are your thoughts ... and/or experiences?







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OfflinemotamanM
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2082199 - 11/07/03 07:53 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

remote viewing?


--------------------
http://heffter.org


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: motaman]
    #2082286 - 11/07/03 08:45 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

That is exactly what I think we do when we take psychedelics.


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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2082328 - 11/07/03 09:08 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I think the use of psychadelics can help open us up to clearing the chakras, and thus, with time, activating the merkaba. The merkaba translates to counter-rotating fields of light, and is the interdimensional vehicle our spirit uses for travel. Most humans on Earth currently have non-functioning merkabas, but the process of activating them is as simple as breathing properly. To have a fully activated merkaba while still in physical form might result in the ability to travel the universe, one can only speculate.. but for certain, it is a potent vehicle of the inner spirit for exploring the endless realms of space.
I think that, intuition tells me at least.. that while we reside in the 3rd density, our bodies are not capable of withstanding long distance space travel. However, upon entrance to the 4th density, our subatomic frequency is at a much higher rate, often accompanied by the proper functioning of clear chakras, and thus of functioning merkaba. It is my understanding that UFOs, or beamships as they like to call them, are a sort of external technology, that functions on the same principle of the merkaba. Only in pure spirit form (5th density and above) would the merkabas be fully activated and able to be used for interstellar travel. However, this may or may not be the case.


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OfflineNewSpore
Just Starting toSee the Light

Registered: 03/26/03
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2082394 - 11/07/03 09:30 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting topic. Skip started using them for travel and clearing as well.
He has noticed over the last few months the clarity in his mind is detailed when he is tripping, dreaming or as some feel, traveling.
Lessons come in hordes and take months to figure out and incorporate into his life. Thus information feels more like channeled.
The Chakra and their auras as well as energy in chi gung has been increasing since he uses sacraments.

As far as traveling I feel we do not go anywhere, we just blend or melt into the surrounding energy. If you are one with it, can you not see all it has encompassed?



--------------------
Be in truth and watch the magic happen.
SBP TEK


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OfflinePsychogenik
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Registered: 09/22/03
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: NewSpore]
    #2082634 - 11/07/03 10:58 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

lucid dreaming is another alternative to explore other dimensions.


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I'll eat myself if i have to!


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Psychogenik]
    #2082638 - 11/07/03 10:59 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

as well as astral projection


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Offlinestudent
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: NewSpore]
    #2082683 - 11/07/03 11:12 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

i have seen the universe on mushrooms. i have warped time.
it is all in your head. we know everything we need to know, it is only a matter of realization. you can go to any place in any time if you let yourself go. psychedelics are simply a tool to let yourself go, to realize what you know.
however there are two problems with traveling by psychedelics.
-one is that your body cannot come along. and in our normal lives that makes the whole journey invalid. i know that i was in another part of the universe, but the pictures can ever be developed. without physical proof, you were never there in the eyes of the world. (at least until the world accepts the power of psychedelics)
-the other is that you are changed forever once you travel. my travels have shown me infinite possibilities. but every time i travel it is harder to accept the reality shoved down my throat here. I started out wanting to be a physicist to understand time. now i want to be a shaman to understand time. my reality changed as my perception of time did. i realized that there is no place in academia for my views. they are not written in a hundred dollar book by some scientist who read other scientists' books. my thirst for understanding will never again be quenched in a lecture hall. science has lost its importance. it is only trivia and factoids compared to experiencing the infinite first hand.

warning-

before travelling with psyhedelics, decide what you want in life. the choice between acceptance and understanding seems glaringly obvious before you leave. but you never come back to what you left. in this society the only acceptable knowledge is gained by building on others ideas. to gain a different view of reality and base truth on that is unacceptable when achieved through psychedelics. travelling by psychedelics can not be half done. it is all or nothing. choose wisely.

travel safe
student


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2082699 - 11/07/03 11:16 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

On Salvia once (nearly 1/4g of 10x) I was "sucked" out of the back of my head and started to zoom away from myself. Out through the roof then the atmosphere then the planets, stars, galaxies, and finally out until everything was a dot of light.

It all looked very real. I was scared at the time of suffocating so I held my breath the whole time :smirk:

Oh, and when everything was a point, I could still see the back of my head. Kind of like the Infinite Perspective Vortex or something.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: trendal]
    #2082966 - 11/08/03 01:22 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

If our conscienceness is entangled in the quantum world, and i believe it is, and these dimensions are of the quantum world or can be accessed through that world, then it might be that the more aware we become of our own conscienceness the more aware we might become of these other "places". Lately i've been considering the possibility that our conscienceness isnt really in us, but everywhere, and our brains merely process reality itself but are also reality itself, and even our memory isnt so much stored in our brain, but everywhere, and our brain just accesses that everywhere when we remember or think or anything...its hard to articulate this all in a sensible way, i apologize if the idea is not clearly written, but i can clearly conceptialize it. Basically everything is energy, or organizational patterns of energy, and maybe conscienceness is just the act of organising. Its all like a painting, i can organize the paint in patterns and colors that display anything really, even the illusion of motion, or maybe mostion is the visable reorganization of energy, but whats important here is its all still just paint. Its the colors and patterns that form the reality.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2082990 - 11/08/03 01:45 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

This is all very interesting but as the sceptic I have to wonder how you KNOW that you actually explored anything that is real. How do you KNOW that you were not just imagining things without actaully going once to know what there is..


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2083305 - 11/08/03 06:31 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mntlfngrs said:
This is all very interesting but as the sceptic I have to wonder how you KNOW that you actually explored anything that is real. How do you KNOW that you were not just imagining things without actaully going once to know what there is..




Well, how can you KNOW that you are on a computer right now? How can you KNOW that the memories you have of what happened in your past you actually experienced? How do you know that we aren't all just imagining all of this?

Waking up to this every day doesn't equate into "knowing" that this is reality, the Truth. We might have little measuring sticks and fancy mirrors that let us observe things and such, but this could all very well be a dream. The moment we are in right now is the only thing that we "know" is happening to us. We have memories of the past, and they could have very well just been imagined.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2083349 - 11/08/03 07:00 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I think it is possible, that entheogens could allowed you to travel to other dimensions (kind of astraly projecting), I had 2 traveling experiences with shrooms.
1) I was looking at a clod and them voom bamm, I was in the cloud.
2)I was in my room and keep changing position in the room almost instantly, very confusing.
But I have no control with these travels, that?s the problem.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: LOBO]
    #2085808 - 11/09/03 01:52 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I doubt anyone's conscienceness really goes to another dimension, and think that what is happening is all in our heads, but why would whats happening inside our head be anyless real, then whats happening outside of it? So um basically i don't know, and wouldn't be suprised probably no matter the answer. Mommy!!! there is a DMT entity under my bed!!!....leave a light on please.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be.


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Offlineguitarmon
musician

Registered: 11/05/03
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2086196 - 11/09/03 09:00 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting. Sure, remote viewing or astral projection ... whatever. Who is to say that the normal way of 'being' in some other dimensions isn't an 'energy' or 'spirit' form, if you will. I think that if you can conceive or imagine it ... its possible.

And to those who think our conciousness never leaves our 'skulls' ... sure thats possible. But look at it like this ... just in the same way that the macro-cosmic universe expands endlessly on big spectrum ... so does the micro-cosmic universe in the opposite direction in a smaller scale (its doesn't stop at the quarks or 'strings' ... they have to made up of even smaller particles... and on ... and on ... into infinity).

There could be limitless universes, dimensions, and realities just inside your tiny skull.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2088139 - 11/10/03 12:01 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

well string theory says everything is fundamentally made up of tiny vibrating superstrings or something, but the holographic theory says that those strings are actually composed of planek tiles, that are basically the equivelent of 1's and 0's strung together, that is, that fundementially everything is just actually information. They even say that the surface of an object somehow contains all the info needed to construct the entire object. all very strange, but something about the holographic theory, just seems right to me, i dont know why.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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Offlinenubious
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2088447 - 11/10/03 02:23 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

where can I do some reading on the holographic theory?


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: trendal]
    #2088994 - 11/10/03 10:03 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I was scared at the time of suffocating so I held my breath the whole time



once you leave the meat there is no need to breathe anymore.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2089754 - 11/10/03 02:59 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Disregarding all the blather, not one verifiable piece of data about any planet in our solar system has come from psychedelic journeying. END OF STORY.

*Please - no more faulty references to the Dogon tribe.*


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2089840 - 11/10/03 03:36 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Interstellar travel wouldn't really take you to any planet in this solar system which explains why we're not getting any data on them.

Of course, psychedelics can only take you on an interstellar travel. Maybe you'll keep within the boundaries of the solar system if you water it down a bit. You'd probably also have to face in the general direction of the celestial body you're trying to reach.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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OfflineSmaug
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: muhurgle]
    #2089892 - 11/10/03 03:59 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Well during my shroom trips I experience a lot of what has been said here already. The thing I've been thinking a lot about is layers. During my trips, it seems that there are many layers to the reality that exists, how ever I didn't try to experiment with them or anything. That's just what I've noticed. I have however, played with a seemingly endless loop of time, slipping through the near past and future randomly.


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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2090336 - 11/10/03 06:31 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Disregarding all the blather, not one verifiable piece of data about any planet in our solar system has come from psychedelic journeying. END OF STORY.

*Please - no more faulty references to the Dogon tribe.*




No verifiable piece of evidence that you know of, but even if someone actually did come forward ... I doubt that they would be taken seriously by the scientific community.

But thats not the point, Im simply wondering if its 'possible'. Flying machines and traveling to the moon were only 'dreams' a couple of hundred years ago. Even so, there were people with imagination that thought about flying machines and trips to the moon long before it became a reality. If you can imagine or conceive of the idea ... why couldn't it be possible?

If there are multiple dimensions all around us ... but we are currently unaware of how to see or get to them ... maybe the use of psychedelics could somehow help us 'see' the way.

We only use a small percentage of our brains capabilities ... who knows what we could do with a little meditation, imagination, and shrooms.


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2090351 - 11/10/03 06:40 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

We only use a small percentage of our brains capabilities



more like - the researcher, who originally said that, was only able to fathom a small percentage of our brains capabilities.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2090620 - 11/10/03 08:27 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

No verifiable piece of evidence that you know of, but even if someone actually did come forward ... I doubt that they would be taken seriously by the scientific community.
That is an incredibly weak "argument" that is casually tossed out here repeatedly. Millions of trips taken and no previously unknown stellar data reported - how much simpler can it get than that?

Im simply wondering if its 'possible'.

Flying machines and traveling to the moon were only 'dreams' a couple of hundred years ago.
Irrelevant. The physics for those things were there, but the technology had yet to catch up. What could possibly be different about your next trip that will be able to bring back data about Mars?

Even so, there were people with imagination that thought about flying machines and trips to the moon long before it became a reality. If you can imagine or conceive of the idea ... why couldn't it be possible?
Reread the previous lines: BECAUSE THERE WILL BE NOTHING NEW AND DIFFERENT ABOUT YOUR NEXT TRIP that will enable cosmic remote viewing. Most every conceivable dosage, setting and combination has been tried.

If there are multiple dimensions all around us ... but we are currently unaware of how to see or get to them ... maybe the use of psychedelics could somehow help us 'see' the way.
One mo' time: if we haven't accessed these mysterious (external) realms yet, what will be different tomorrow?

We only use a small percentage of our brains capabilities ...
This has been debunked in g-r-e-a-t detail. Please list your source for this fallacy, rather than stating it as fact - it is not.

...who knows what we could do with a little meditation, imagination, and shrooms.
People who have tripped hundreds of times know - and the answer is: very little.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2090682 - 11/10/03 08:55 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Swami, you can split hairs and quote till the cows come home. You talk about science and evidence? Prove me wrong then, with scientific evidence. You won't ... because you can't.

I'm not trying to 'prove' anything ... nor am I attempting to state anything 'as fact' ... I've only put out some thoughts for discussion, and stated my 'opinion' ... all of which is subjective ... but regardless of that you have no evidence to the contrary anyways.

How do you know we (or someone ... not necessarily 'you' or 'me') haven't accessed 'these mysterious realms' already, but just haven't realized it?

The anwser is: you don't. Because you haven't ... or can't ... doesn't mean someone else can't, or hasn't already done it ... or will in the future.

All you know is what has gone on in your head ... and what you've read about other peoples experiences. All of which is open to interpretation and debate.



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2090801 - 11/10/03 09:39 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

You have yet to give any reason for even the belief in the possibility of interstellar travel from tripping. With no evidence and no precedence, what would point you in that direction except for a McKenna quote or cheesey sci-fi movies? Even conjecture MUST have some launching pad.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2090857 - 11/10/03 10:08 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I dont know a specific place where u can read about holographic theory. I've just picked up bits of info all over the place. type it into yahoo and you should get some hits, but i'd say try to stick with what actual scientists are saying and ingnore the psuedo science. because of the nature of the thoery, being that its more holistic, alot of crap has been said in regards to it.
Someone said something about layers of reality. I think about that alot. Sometimes i feel like i can almost see the grainularity of reality(that is a topic often discussed by scientists), like seeing the grain on film. And i often have the feeling that if i could just focus a lil bit more i would be able to see right through normal reality, or the surface of reality, to what really is. Kind of like Neo in the matrix i guess, like i can almost see the code. Especially since i had i guess a kensho like experience awhile back, the feeling has come more often and with greater intensity. Basically it is the feeling i suppose that everything i see is just like the surface of a pond, ripples and whatnot, but just below is a whole other world, and i can almost see it. I dont know, its an intresting feeling though. Its not that this isn't real, its just that there is so much more then this.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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Offlineguitarmon
musician

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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2090919 - 11/10/03 10:49 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
You have yet to give any reason for even the belief in the possibility of interstellar travel from tripping. With no evidence and no precedence, what would point you in that direction except for a McKenna quote or cheesey sci-fi movies? Even conjecture MUST have some launching pad.




I don't have to give any reasons or evidence ... this is the 'Spirituality and Philosophy' forum, not the 'Science & Physics' forum. I am merely putting forth ideas and theorys for discussion.

If you're bent on the science and physics of it all, or merely trying to establish how clever you are ... then YOU prove me wrong ... smart guy. Use all the physics and science you want ... you still won't be able to do it. I beat you at your own silly game.

I'm not out to bash or ridicule you Swami, but if you're going to come on strong fronting me with weak science and physics rhetoric ... then you better back it up. I'm calling you on it. Prove me wrong.



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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2090949 - 11/10/03 11:07 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

You cant exlude science from spirituality, or philosophy, nor them from science. By their very definitions they must include one another. Or in the very least based on what many people believe those things to be, they must include atleast some of the others. Saying science has nothing to do with or say about god, is as nieve as saying that philosophy and/or spirituality are the only things that have anything to say about god.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2091095 - 11/11/03 12:23 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Using guitarmon-style "logic", why not believe in the possibility of interstellar travel from cutting your toenails or eating a bowl of Cap'N Crunch? The same "arguments" that you have supplied apply equally to any random activity.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineNoviseer
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: nubious]
    #2091124 - 11/11/03 12:32 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

nubious said:
where can I do some reading on the holographic theory?







--------------------
_______________________________________________________________
namaste said:
no flamz in da ODD, if you got nothing to contribute then keep yo lips zipped
_________________________________________________________________


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Noviseer]
    #2091148 - 11/11/03 12:42 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Off-Topic: your avatar

Dude, that is one hellacious wipe-out. I shudder just looking at it. Where did you get the pic? Ever been to The Wedge in Newport Beach, CA?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2091269 - 11/11/03 01:40 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

guitarmon: I don't have to give any reasons or evidence... this is the 'Spirituality and Philosophy' forum, not the 'Science & Physics' forum. I am merely putting forth ideas and theorys for discussion.

If you're bent on the science and physics of it all, or merely trying to establish how clever you are ... then YOU prove me wrong ... smart guy. Use all the physics and science you want ... you still won't be able to do it. I beat you at your own silly game.

I'm not out to bash or ridicule you Swami, but if you're going to come on strong fronting me with weak science and physics rhetoric ... then you better back it up. I'm calling you on it. Prove me wrong.


Um... just go here, bro: Burden of Proof


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2091280 - 11/11/03 01:47 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I consider the psychedelic/entheogenic experience to be a form of exploration of the collective unconscience; an expedition of the landscapes and tunnels and fields and deep seas of the mind-network that connects all sentient and dreaming creatures. The dream internet, if you will.

I have no emperical proof, nor do I know of any way to obtain anything of the kind in regards to these experiences. In my mind, evidence is irrevelent or nonexistent in this area. I suppose I am more interested in pragmatic models; the model of a mind-network that can be accessed via entheogens or meditation or extreme physical states has a positive effect in my life (and could also be positive for others). I peacefully follow that model despite the limitations of logic and science.


--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Xochitl]
    #2091288 - 11/11/03 01:51 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Xochitl: In my mind, evidence is irrevelent in this area. I suppose I am more interested in pragmatic models

What better evidence is there than the practical application?
Maybe you meant to say something else.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Xochitl]
    #2091297 - 11/11/03 01:58 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I have no emperical proof, nor do I know of any way to obtain anything of the kind in regards to these experiences. In my mind, evidence is irrevelent in this area.

Sorry for bringing to forefront the same line as sclorch, but...

Why is it on the forum, when one can give no apparent reason for a certain belief, that apathy ALWAYS accompanies this chasm-jump? Is this a weak attempt to preclude any discussion thereof?

"Bro, it doesn't matter how you respond. Didn't you read the line where I said "I don't care if..."

That would be fine is this were the "State Undisputed and Unsubstantiated Opinions Forum", but alas, it is not!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2091344 - 11/11/03 02:45 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


What better evidence is there than the practical application?
Maybe you meant to say something else




I suppose what I meant by emperical evidence is long-term case studies, EEG brain topography data, and other repeatable involvments of the scientific method. What I see is a peaceful worldview that helps me deal with the mystery of the universe; I do not have such data, nor am I particularly interested.


--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2091346 - 11/11/03 02:48 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


Why is it on the forum, when one can give no apparent reason for a certain belief, that apathy ALWAYS accompanies this chasm-jump? Is this a weak attempt to preclude any discussion thereof?

"Bro, it doesn't matter how you respond. Didn't you read the line where I said "I don't care if..."

That would be fine is this were the "State Undisputed and Unsubstantiated Opinions Forum", but alas, it is not!




Was this directed towards me? I do not fully grasp at what you are saying, nor do I think I engage in such apathy, from what I gather you are trying to say.


--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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Offlinenubious
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Xochitl]
    #2091442 - 11/11/03 03:35 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: nubious]
    #2091500 - 11/11/03 04:11 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

thats the lamest website ive ever seen. If I wanna see a bunch of crazy shit, I'll walk on down the road to Mr. Schubacher's house. He is trying to build a perpetual-motion machine out of scrap metal and spare parts from old bicycles.


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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2091780 - 11/11/03 08:48 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Swami - LOL Where's all your scientic evidence to prove me wrong? Nothing yet? Right, I thought so. Perhaps you're *cough* argument *cough* is not as strong as you thought. If you want to believe in toenails and Cap'n'Crunch, so be it. It matters not to me. My 'theory' remains 'innocent' until proven 'guilty'. I rest my case. LOL


ZenGekco - Wrong. For example, If you watched the Nova series 'The Elegant Universe' where they talked about 'string theory' ... there was some skepticism among some scientists. They thought that since there was no verifiable proof that 'strings' actually existed ... that the whole theory was more 'philosophy' than 'science'. Get it?


Sclorch - Thats your opinion ... but I have real precedent ... in our own judicial system (flawed as it is). Burden of proof rests on the prosecution. Like I said ... prove me wrong.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2091914 - 11/11/03 10:09 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

guitarmon said:
My 'theory' remains 'innocent' until proven 'guilty'. I rest my case. LOL




Well, actually, from what I understand of science, a theory isn't innocent until proven guilty.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineNoviseer
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2091975 - 11/11/03 10:30 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

The pic in my avatar was taken at the wedge, well actually at cylinders, which is the right just south of the tower. I bodyboard there a lot in the summer, it doesn't break in the wintertime, needs south swells. It is an amazing place.


--------------------
_______________________________________________________________
namaste said:
no flamz in da ODD, if you got nothing to contribute then keep yo lips zipped
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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2091979 - 11/11/03 10:31 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

guitarmon said:
My 'theory' remains 'innocent' until proven 'guilty'. I rest my case. LOL




Well, actually, from what I understand of science, a theory isn't innocent until proven guilty.
Peace.




Perhaps ... but like I said ... this is the 'Spirituality and Philosophy' forum, not the 'Science and Physics' forum. I wasn't the one to bring 'Science and Physics' into this discussion. But if you think you can use science and physics to help prove your point ... then by all means do it.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2091990 - 11/11/03 10:38 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

guitarmon said:
Perhaps ...  but like I said ... this is the 'Spirituality and Philosophy' forum, not the 'Science and Physics' forum. I wasn't the one to bring 'Science and Physics' into this discussion. But if you think you can use science and physics to help prove your point ... then by all means do it. 




Well, this might be Spirituality and Philsophy, however, this topic at hand has some very tightly knotted ties to the world of science and physics. I mean, space travel?

By the way, I don't remember having a point to prove. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2092044 - 11/11/03 10:53 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


By the way, I don't remember having a point to prove. :grin:
Peace. 




Let me refresh your memory then, look up at your previous post then. *shrug* Whats the point indeed? :wink: 

As you can tell, I like to debate. But things might get out of hand if I have to debate 3 or 4 dudes at once. LOL :wink:

Hey your a musician from Norway? Ever heard of Opeth? They're from Sweden I think, probably the best metal band gigging today. 


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2092047 - 11/11/03 10:54 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

When I had a level 5 trip, I didn't need to travel across the universe. I WAS the universe. However, I try not to confuse my insights from tripping with the trip itself. I know that I was not literally seeing the universe in its entirety. I only felt a sense of oneness with it. I simply take it for what it is: a new perspective, not the absolute undeniable truth.

In the same respect, I experienced God during that trip, but that doesn't mean I'm 100% convinced that there is a God(tho I personally feel that there is, and we are one with Him/Her/It), just that I have new ideas and a new perspective about the nature of God. As much as I talk about God, parallel dimensions, and being one with the universe, that doesn't mean I accept these as irrefutable facts. It's only my personal perspective based on my insights from tripping, which is why I try not to be too dogmatic about it.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2092074 - 11/11/03 11:01 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

guitarmon said:
Let me refresh your memory then, look up at your previous post then. *shrug* Whats the point indeed? :wink:




Well, I did have a point, but not one directly related to the main subject being discussed. Just that when one is talking about something that involves science or something related, that science does have room in the debate.

Myself, I have never done any interstellar or interdimensional travel on any substance. However, I think that it may indeed be possible to do on certain substances.

Quote:


Hey your a musician from Norway? Ever heard of Opeth? They're from Sweden I think, probably the best metal band gigging today. 




Yeah, Opeth kicks major ass. My favourite is IN FLAMES, though. I mean, Opeth is a fucking music monster, but there is just something about IN FLAMES that resonates with something inside me..

I'm not from Norway, but I'm enjoying my stay here rather nicely. :grin: I do miss not having my band to play with, though...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Xochitl]
    #2092259 - 11/11/03 11:55 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I do not fully grasp at what you are saying,
Not my fault.

nor do I think I engage in such apathy
You certainly do as you followed up with:

I do not have such data, nor am I particularly interested.
Apathy personified. You make my case for me.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Noviseer]
    #2092267 - 11/11/03 11:56 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

The pic in my avatar was taken at the wedge...

See? Swami knows all. Who else could look at a 70X70 pixel image of the ocean (out of a near infinite number of locations) and determine where the picture was taken ?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2092297 - 11/11/03 12:04 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Swami - LOL Where's all your scientic evidence to prove me wrong? Nothing yet? Right, I thought so. Perhaps you're *cough* argument *cough* is not as strong as you thought. If you want to believe in toenails and Cap'n'Crunch, so be it. It matters not to me. My 'theory' remains 'innocent' until proven 'guilty'. I rest my case. LOL

You have failed to answer a single question nor have you made even the weakest of cases for shroom journeying and the possibility of interstellar travel nor do you understand the basics of logical discussion.

I prefer to spend my time on worthy opponents. I don't practice martial arts on small children and frail senior citizens

Swami out.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2092317 - 11/11/03 12:10 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Sure. Definitely. You could be right now, sober, without really being aware of it.


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Namaste


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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #2092428 - 11/11/03 12:41 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

SilverSoul7 - thanks for having an open mind and sharing your insights, very interesting.

Fireworks_God - right on, In Flames rocks ... heavy, yet very melodic.

Swami - Your arrogance has blinded you to this simple fact: I merely asked the questions "Is it possible? What are your experiences?" Go back and re-read my very first post in this thread.

I have nothing to prove. You entered the thread with arrogant skepticism stating that its all impossible, and demanding proof. I merely turned your questions 'of proof' back on you ... and you balk. Whatever, I will allow you to retreat from the debate you instigated with whats left of your pride. You are dismissed.


RedNukleus - Sure, thats entirely within the realm of possibility.


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2092701 - 11/11/03 01:38 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Apathy personified. You make my case for me.




The tribes of Papua New Guinea are one of the few primative cultures left and they hold beliefs that are irrational to the western mind. There is no scientific proof that their ancenstors exist after material death to affect their lives, but yet they maintain their beliefs and are not interested in providing scientific proof to outsiders. Are they apathetic as well?

The Buddhists and Hindu see the universe as an infinite and creative force that connects all sentient beings in a cycle of karma. The dedicated practioners often arrive at their beliefs through direct experience via methods of meditation and extreme physical states. They never appeal to the western notions of scientific proof. Are they apathy personified as well?

My experiences with entheogens has been so intense and so clear that they have shaped how I view the universe; appealing to western methods of proof to validate my experiences seems to be activity for others to partake in.


--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Xochitl]
    #2092921 - 11/11/03 02:32 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

apathy = activity for others to partake in


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2092957 - 11/11/03 02:45 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Here are some tests to see if psychedelic "travel" is real:

- Build an enclosed room with a note, and ask the traveller to read the note from far away.
- Have one traveller communicate a message to another traveller.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2093052 - 11/11/03 03:22 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

can you answer my two other questions please?


--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Xochitl]
    #2093356 - 11/11/03 04:32 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Xochitl said:
Quote:

Apathy personified. You make my case for me.




The tribes of Papua New Guinea are one of the few primative cultures left and they hold beliefs that are irrational to the western mind. There is no scientific proof that their ancenstors exist after material death to affect their lives, but yet they maintain their beliefs and are not interested in providing scientific proof to outsiders. Are they apathetic as well?



Are they really holding on to their beliefs in the face of Western culture, or have they simply had minimal exposure to it? Most tribes that have been exposed to Western culture tend to adopt their religion(either Christianity or Islam).

Quote:

The Buddhists and Hindu see the universe as an infinite and creative force that connects all sentient beings in a cycle of karma. The dedicated practioners often arrive at their beliefs through direct experience via methods of meditation and extreme physical states. They never appeal to the western notions of scientific proof. Are they apathy personified as well?



Ridiculous analogy. One of the Buddha's foremost teachings is to question everything. They don't dismiss science. They simply understand that there are certain things which are not scientifically verifiable, and which can't be explained through logic. Interstellar travel via psychedelics, if it were possible, would be easily verifiable by having the the subject report back details which they did not previously know of, but which are scientifically established.

Quote:

My experiences with entheogens has been so intense and so clear that they have shaped how I view the universe; appealing to western methods of proof to validate my experiences seems to be activity for others to partake in.



My view of the universe has also been radically shaped by intense experiences with entheogens. However, I don't make the fallacy of assuming that psychedelics give one such radical powers as interstellar travel. I am sick of people thinking that just because Western science and philosophy are flawed and incomplete that that somehow makes them useless.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2093407 - 11/11/03 04:48 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

They simply understand that there are certain things which are not scientifically verifiable, and which can't be explained through logic.




My point exactly. I never said science is useless, either.

Quote:

Interstellar travel via psychedelics, if it were possible, would be easily verifiable by having the the subject report back details which they did not previously know of, but which are scientifically established.




I never argued in favor of intersteller travel via psychedelics. Re-read my posts.


--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: pattern]
    #2093447 - 11/11/03 05:03 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pattern said:
Here are some tests to see if psychedelic "travel" is real:

- Build an enclosed room with a note, and ask the traveller to read the note from far away.
- Have one traveller communicate a message to another traveller.




That would be a logical test, sure. But ... you are making the assumption that when someone takes psychedelics ... they will be able to 'control' where 'it' takes them.

Maybe some people have the mental disipline and 'control' to guide themselves to 'EXACTLY where they wish to go via psychedelics ... and 'mold' their trip into exactly what they wish. But not everyone.

In my experience (the only one I can speak for) ... I don't have that type of control. The 'shroom trip' takes me where IT wants to go ... and shows me what IT wants me to see.

Kind of like going to an airport blindfolded ... and hopping on a plane at random. You don't know where you will end up. Kind of hard to 'test the theory' if you don't where you're going to end up.


But ... if thru meditation and mental disipline, you were somehow able to focus and 'guide' your trip to exactly where you wanted to go ... could it be possible?

Why? or Why not?


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2093570 - 11/11/03 05:43 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

To Swami and Sclorch, How the hell ya been?
back on track...the "Pragmatic worldview" is highly effective at delineating most observable phenomena but by it's own cause and effect limitation is similar to comparing Newtonian physics with Quantum physics.At what level of reality does one lose the pragmatic? Is it the Quantum level? there are certainly many conundrums there,but what if there are "higher" levels than even the "Quantum"
What if consciousness is a deeper fundament of creation than even Quantum physics.At what point is the pragmatic lost as we delve deeper into the fundament of reality both scientificly and psychologicaly?
WR:rasta:


--------------------
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InvisibleSwami
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2093717 - 11/11/03 06:37 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

If I could "somehow" hold my breath long enough and "somehow" jump high enough I could touch the moon.

But ... if thru meditation and mental disipline, you were somehow able to focus and 'guide' your trip to exactly where you wanted to go ... could it be possible?

No. Because psilocybin merely replaces one neurotransmitter with a substitute. Tripping does not violate the laws of physics nor biology nor does it give one special powers.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2093938 - 11/11/03 07:35 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
If I could "somehow" hold my breath long enough and "somehow" jump high enough I could touch the moon.

But ... if thru meditation and mental disipline, you were somehow able to focus and 'guide' your trip to exactly where you wanted to go ... could it be possible?

No. Because psilocybin merely replaces one neurotransmitter with a substitute. Tripping does not violate the laws of physics nor biology nor does it give one special powers.





Science currently fails to explain all the mysteries of the multiverse.

What about telekinesis, psychokinesis, clairvoyance, etc. ? Do you claim to know everything about the mind, the universe ... what can and can't be done?

Open your mind ... use your imagination.

I'm not saying that psilocybin will give you super or magic powers ... but who knows ... it could help to unlock 'abilities' that we might already have, but are simply unaware of.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2093970 - 11/11/03 07:44 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

guitarmon said:
Quote:

pattern said:
Here are some tests to see if psychedelic "travel" is real:

- Build an enclosed room with a note, and ask the traveller to read the note from far away.
- Have one traveller communicate a message to another traveller. 




That would be a logical test, sure. But ... you are making the assumption that when someone takes psychedelics ...  they will be able to 'control' where 'it' takes them.

Maybe some people have the mental disipline and 'control' to guide themselves to 'EXACTLY where they wish to go via psychedelics ... and 'mold' their trip into exactly what they wish. But not everyone.

In my experience (the only one I can speak for) ... I don't have that type of control. The 'shroom trip' takes me where IT wants to go ... and shows me what IT wants me to see.

Kind of like going to an airport blindfolded ... and hopping on a plane at random. You don't know where you will end up. Kind of hard to 'test the theory' if you don't where you're going to end up.


But ... if thru meditation and mental disipline, you were somehow able to focus and 'guide' your trip to exactly where you wanted to go ... could it be possible?

Why? or Why not?   




I'm only proposing some scenarios on how your theory could be verified.  If your theory is true then there is probably a way to prove it.

>Have one traveller communicate a message to another traveller.

I think this test would be easier to carry out.  For example two people take DMT at the same time, one of them has a keyword to give to the other person.  They meet in the "DMT-verse" and the other person comes back with the word. 

It would be interesting if such a test was successful and could be repeated.  Anyone wanna do DMT with me?  :grin:

As for how this would be scientifically possible, I dunno.  There are many crazy scientific theories about multiple dimensions, holographic realities, time travel, etc.  Personally I don't believe it would work, but I keep an open mind that the possibility exists, from my own unusual experiences tripping with other people. 


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2094422 - 11/11/03 09:37 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Note: what the following have to do with interstellar travel, I cannot fathom. Why not bring in the chupacabra as well?

What about telekinesis,
Has never been demonstrated before impartial observers.

psychokinesis,
Has never been demonstrated before impartial observers.

clairvoyance,
Has never been demonstrated before impartial observers.

Do you claim to know everything about the mind, the universe ... what can and can't be done?
No, I only know that EVERY SINGLE person that I have encountered who makes any claims of paranormal powers either backs down when challenged or fails to produce any positive results.

When they fail, the response is ALWAYS the same:

A. I cannot perform in front of a skeptic.

B. Why should I "waste" my powers just to convince you?


... use your imagination.
What makes you think that I don't? My art, music and writing all flows from imagination.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2094608 - 11/11/03 10:23 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with a lot of the points guitarmon has made about the fact that this is a spirituality board and not a hard science board.

I respect skeptics but it gets really hard to respect them when they disrespect other people and become downright childish and petty in their refutations.

I don't mind skeptics if or religious fanatics as long as they adhere to one principle: express your opinion, then walk away!! Let it go!! Give the other person the freedom to believe whaty he wants without having to endure the ridicule of his peers. If you are afraid of some psycho misleading others, then make your refutations to his claims known, then walk the fuck away!!! Let the reader decide. Repeatedly picking apart people's posts like some internet nerd doesn't help convince anybody. People aren't supposed to attack the person, as opposed to the arguement, but they do anyway. Coming off like a prick skeptic does nothing to help the popularity of your ideas. The same is true of dogma pushers. Say what you gotta say, and walk away. If someone uses fallacies to make you look like an idiot or disprove your shit, then dont worry about it, because anyone of reasonable intelligence will be able to see that without you calling them on it.

I know I myself have been guilty of the pick apart post reponse, but mainly in defense of myself and others, and sometimes just for plain ol devil's advocacy, just to explore facets of a topic. There is a differencve between doing this constructively and doing it maliciously.

Spirituality, Philosophy, and Religion are all touchy issues and everyone should watch the tone of what they say, no matter how ridiculous the claim they are refuting is.

Skeptics should explain why they believe (or dont)what they belive instead of attacking others' beliefs. I have always seen this as a place of expression rather than a place of bland rhetorical debate

People with dogmatic beliefs and new theories should explain why they believe and what drove them to it without trying to convince and convert people.

I think if these two groups simply obeyed these rules, there would be a lot more peace and free expression in this forum.


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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2094656 - 11/11/03 10:38 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Pattern - I hear ya ... its just about entertaining the possibility.  Whats DMT? :smile:


Swami - Its all good. Thanks for your insight and commentary, I respect your opinions.

I have different views, I guess just more curious and open towards other possibilies ... thats why I asked these questions. Interesting stuff, I love it.


You an artist? post links to some of your stuff if you like. I do my own music recordings, thats my thing.

Peace


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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2094700 - 11/11/03 10:52 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

DoctorJ - No worries ... im not a crusader for intergallactic mushroom travels. I'm just posing the question for discussion ... viewpoints, and debate. 

My ego is not involved in this. I just have a wild imagination and curiosity ... but I confess I've have had some fun debating and entertaining the possibility. :wink: lol

I'd like to hear more viewpoints ... there is more than one angle to all this I think ... lol


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2094790 - 11/11/03 11:15 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Guitarmon said..."ZenGekco - Wrong. For example, If you watched the Nova series 'The Elegant Universe' where they talked about 'string theory' ... there was some skepticism among some scientists. They thought that since there was no verifiable proof that 'strings' actually existed ... that the whole theory was more 'philosophy' than 'science'. Get it?"
I am aware of the debate surrounding string theory and the similar debate surrounding the holographic theory. I was not saying that science is the only thing that has anything to say about the nature of reality and/or being, or that spirituality and/or philosophy do. I'm saying that if you want any hope of getting as close to the truth as possible you need all 3. And actually philosophy has alot in common with science in that it is deeply rooted in logic, if not mathmatical logic then verbal logic, which actually is not all that different from math really. but the point is, Science has alot to say about reality, so does spirituality, so does philosophy. if you ignore one then the exploration of the others can't help but be incomplete. The debate surrounding string theory centers on the difficulty of testing it, but it was good experimental science that led to the theory in the first place. The theory itself may be considered more philosophy then science, but with out the science you wouldn't have gotten the philosophy of string theory. So science was useful in building the philosophy, now maybe the philosophy will be useful in decerning spiritual truth, and the spiritual truth may give us meaning. The real point is that all 3 have the same basic purpose, to find truth, if such a thing exists, they are just 3 different ways of going about it, but all have their merits and all have arguebly contributed greatly in our search for truth. They need each other. Philosophy helps pin down the question, and may suggest answers, science asks the questions and often provides the "how" of it, and often suggests other questions or answers, but often these are outside the bounds of science, and the "why" is left to spirituality, or even philosophy once again, possibly. There is a reason why most philosophers through the ages have been scientists and/or theologians.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2094908 - 11/11/03 11:44 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

It is really important for a poster to carry forward some real or imagined slight from many months ago and to keep reliving it in thread after thread. This is the essence of spirituality.

I agree with a lot of the points guitarmon has made about the fact that this is a spirituality board and not a hard science board.
Interplanetary exploration has nothing to do with science?

I respect skeptics but it gets really hard to respect them....
Which is it? Is this some zen paradox?

I don't mind skeptics if or religious fanatics as long as they adhere to one principle: express your opinion, then walk away!! Let it go!!
Will DoktorJ live up to his own principle? (We already know the answer to that one.)

Give the other person the freedom...
Freedom as long as we follow your guiding principles.

to believe whaty he wants without having to endure the ridicule of his peers.
Guitarmon does NOT need a champion. He is perfectly capable of responding.

If you are afraid of some psycho misleading others, then make your refutations to his claims known, then walk the fuck away!!!
You already said that. I thought you were going to express your opinion then walk away. Wait, that is for others only.

Let the reader decide.
The reader ALWAYS decides.

People aren't supposed to attack the person, as opposed to the arguement, but they do anyway.
Soundz good, let's see how The Doktor does:

...like some internet nerd

Coming off like a prick skeptic


Very complimentary and NOT AT ALL personal.

Say what you gotta say, and walk away.
Third time is a charm I guess.

If someone uses fallacies to make you look like an idiot or disprove your shit, then dont worry about it, because anyone of reasonable intelligence will be able to see that without you calling them on it.
Therefore debate and discussion is totally unecessary because we are all people of reasonable intelligence? Perspective is just as important as intelligence.

I know I myself have been guilty of the pick apart post reponse,
Like this one where you do NOT challenge one single point that I made.

but mainly in defense of myself and others,
How noble! Ah, once again, The People's Champion.

There is a differencve between doing this constructively and doing it maliciously.
How do you call someone a prick (something that I have NEVER done on this board) constructively, oh great and wise master?

Spirituality, Philosophy, and Religion are all touchy issues
Only to tender, touchy, ego-based people with no real faith.

...and everyone should watch the tone of what they say, no matter how ridiculous the claim they are refuting is.
The more ridiculous the claim, the more it "should" be shredded.

Skeptics should explain why they believe (or dont)what they belive instead of attacking others' beliefs.
Should - yes, we all should all follow your sterling example and post according to your rules even though you tramp all over your own tenets.

I have always seen this as a place of expression rather than a place of bland rhetorical debate
There should be no debate on a debate board?

People with dogmatic beliefs and new theories should explain why they believe and what drove them to it without trying to convince and convert people.
Get the majority to agree to your guidelines, then I will follow them. Until then mi amigo...



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2095199 - 11/12/03 12:46 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I still believe its all within the realm of possibility.

There are many angles to this discussion.  How about this angle then?

A scientist takes some shrooms, has a revelation ... which leads him to discover how to invent a device that will allow interdimensional travel.

Never underestimate the power of the mind on shrooms.

LOL :smile:


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2095242 - 11/12/03 12:58 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

A scientist takes some shrooms, has a revelation ... which leads him to discover how to invent a device that will allow interdimensional travel.

Uh, well, that was pretty much (LSD instead of shrooms) how Kary Mullis realized the Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR).  However, he was working with DNA in reality NOT "Interdimensional Travel" in your fantasies. :wink: 


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2096300 - 11/12/03 08:14 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
A scientist takes some shrooms, has a revelation ... which leads him to discover how to invent a device that will allow interdimensional travel.

Uh, well, that was pretty much (LSD instead of shrooms) how Kary Mullis realized the Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR).  However, he was working with DNA in reality NOT "Interdimensional Travel" in your fantasies. :wink: 




Exactly! Thanks for the example. It is not inconceivable then, nor without precedence. Which, among all my questions ... is one of my points ... 'It is not outside the realm of possibillities'. :smile:

LOL 


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2096565 - 11/12/03 09:46 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Exactly! Thanks for the example. It is not inconceivable then, nor without precedence.

Well, actually it is without precedence. The scientist in question, Kary Mullis, had a PhD in chemistry and had been working on the problem for years.

Not ONE scientist has a degree in interdimensional travel; nor is a youngster who takes shrooms after a Matrix movie going to come up with some physics breakthrough.

Technological advances come about through study, understanding and discipline.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2096617 - 11/12/03 09:58 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

guitarmon and swami:

I wasn't directing any comments in my previous post towards either of you, or anyone else in particular. Just general observations. If something I said offended either of you personally, you should deal with that issue by yourself, because I was not commenting on anyone in particular.

that is all.


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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2096635 - 11/12/03 10:05 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Swami,

LOL :wink:  Splitt hairs and harangue all you want ... your point is irrelevant.

The fact remains: A scientist (or anybody) still COULD gain insight via psychedelics. That fact is incontrovertible. That is my point.

Computer Science or Quantum Mechanics didn't exist 200 years ago in any University.  It is not inconceivable that 'Interdimensional Sciece' won't be taught in Univercites 200 years from now.

I've simply posed the questions ...

You say its impossible ... and ask for proof, fine.

Yet, you can't provide any scientific evidence to the contrary either. I understand your frustration. :wink: LOL





Edited by guitarmon (11/12/03 10:07 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2096668 - 11/12/03 10:16 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

The fact remains: A scientist (or anybody) still COULD gain insight via psychedelics. That fact is incontrovertible. That is my point.
The fact remains: A scientist (or anybody) still COULD gain insight via clipping their toenails. That fact is incontrovertible. That is my point.

You don't make a single argument to back up your proposition that psychedelics could be useful in leading to new technology.

How many new technologies came from M.I.T. or BellLabs or Stanford as compared to Woodstock, Greatful Dead concerts or Burning Man?

Yet, you can't provide any scientific evidence to the contrary either.
Please read up on logic and the disproving of a negative. Repeating this fallacy only makes you look uneducated.





--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2096707 - 11/12/03 10:35 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


A scientist (or anybody) still COULD gain insight via clipping their toenails.





True, but your facisnation with toenails is irrelevant to this discussion. Stay on topic.


Quote:


You don't make a single argument to back up your proposition that psychedelics could be useful in leading to new technology.





I didn't, but Sclorch gave a good example a few posts above. Thanks again Sclorch.

Quote:


Please read up on logic and the disproving of a negative. Repeating this fallacy only makes you look uneducated.






Are you running out of ideas already, and resorting to personal attacks? What a shame.

Your inability to acknowledge even the slight possibility that it 'could' happen, might lead people to believe you have no imagination.

YOU asked for proof and evidence, yet you can't provide any to back up your views. Ironic.








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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2096743 - 11/12/03 10:44 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

You don't make a single argument to back up your proposition that psychedelics could be useful in leading to new technology.

How many new technologies came from M.I.T. or BellLabs or Stanford as compared to Woodstock, Greatful Dead concerts or Burning Man?





not to be a bitch or anything, but isn't it fallacious to compare such extreme examples?

What about a compromise between MIT and Woodstock? Like, oh I dunno, the combination of College and Weekly Psychedlic Sessions? I think that would be a beneficial lifestyle to any thought process (assuming mental health, of course). Balance is the key here, not extremes.

just my .02


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2096770 - 11/12/03 10:52 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

How many new technologies came from M.I.T. or BellLabs or Stanford as compared to Woodstock, Greatful Dead concerts or Burning Man?




Technophilia is an evolutionary dead end. When BellLabs and burning man have reconciled each as valid then some interesting paradigms of reality will become apparent.
WR:rasta: 


--------------------
To old for this place


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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2096937 - 11/12/03 11:43 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
How many new technologies came from M.I.T. or BellLabs or Stanford as compared to Woodstock, Greatful Dead concerts or Burning Man?

 
 




Perhaps its just a tad naive to assume that psychedelics were not consumed at M.I.T, BellLabs, and Stanford. But I could be mistaken. :wink: LOL   


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2099831 - 11/13/03 12:40 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Actually, guitarmon... my point was that psychedelics, by themselves, cannot lead one to anything. Dr. Mullis wasn't some jerkoff looking for a good time. He had YEARS of knowledge and experience... his LSD experience (apparently the realization took hold while he was driving down some winding mountain road) only helped him defragment and put the pieces to the puzzle together. That's all. There was no new information... just a different perspective.

Okay, now that that's out of the way... want to tell me just how you got your PhD in Intersteller Transportation?

The launching pad is just as critical as the rocket fuel.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2099861 - 11/13/03 12:52 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Perhaps its just a tad naive to assume that psychedelics were not consumed at M.I.T, BellLabs, and Stanford. But I could be mistaken.

And you are! It is truly naive to "read" statements that were never made and assume facts not in evidence.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2099891 - 11/13/03 01:08 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Swami... isn't it a tad naive to assume that Dubya isn't actually helping to make the world a better place under the illusion of "war" and his NeoCon "ulterior motives"?
I mean, come on. [/Jimmy from South Park]

*shovel shovel*
Man, this shit is heavy!
*shovel shovel*


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2101065 - 11/13/03 09:58 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Sclorch - Exactly! Its all about getting new perspectives!

Education is wonderful, but don't give too much importance to PHD titles and the Academic 'establishment'.  Einstein worked as a Patent Clerk when he came up with his theory of relativity. He wasn't embraced by the 'academic establishment' until afterwards.


Swami - LOL :wink: Don't be sore because your arguments got ripped to shreds. No matter how clever you are (or think you are), there will alway be someone just a little bit sharper just around the corner.

Consider me your source of 'digital shrooms' ... I can diminish your overinflated ego for you.  *POP*  There you go, your welcome.

LOL  :wink:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2101144 - 11/13/03 10:20 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Education is wonderful, but don't give too much importance to PHD titles and the Academic 'establishment'. Einstein worked as a Patent Clerk when he came up with his theory of relativity. He wasn't embraced by the 'academic establishment' until afterwards.

Swami - LOL Don't be sore because your arguments got ripped to shreds.

How can I be sore when you have publicly exposed your ignorance of logic in one post after another? Here you give the anecdote ( a logical fallacy) of Einstein (a sample size of one) as some sort of a case against formal education. Sorry, but I do not have the time or space to list the millions of people who were able to contribute enormously to society because of their advanced degrees.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2101191 - 11/13/03 10:32 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Swami,

Sorry, I can't help it if you 'don't get it'. Thats your problem. But alas, your lack of imagination and bloated ego have become tiresome.

Do us all a favor and fade into the background for a bit ... let some other folks express their viewpoints and feeling for a change. Its not all about you, you, you. Take some shrooms and diminish that ego of yours.


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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2128009 - 11/21/03 05:43 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Here is a little write up about 'altered states & parallel universes' that I stumbled upon recently.

This is not any kind of 'proof' obviously, just another viewpoint that I find interesting. Anyways ... give it a look ...

http://www.zoe7.com/Zalteredstates.htm


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Offlinejiva
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2128181 - 11/21/03 06:55 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Here is another related subject...

http://www.deoxy.org/inc2.htm


--------------------
i am another you


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Offlineguitarmon
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Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: jiva]
    #2128995 - 11/22/03 10:53 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

thanks for the link jiva, facisnating.

LOL :wink:


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Anonymous

Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: guitarmon]
    #2129004 - 11/22/03 11:09 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Swami - LOL Where's all your scientic evidence to prove me wrong? Nothing yet? Right, I thought so. Perhaps you're *cough* argument *cough* is not as strong as you thought. If you want to believe in toenails and Cap'n'Crunch, so be it. It matters not to me. My 'theory' remains 'innocent' until proven 'guilty'. I rest my case. LOL

you aren't familiar with the idea of burden of proof, are you? if you make a claim, it is up to you to support it, not others to prove it as false. this is exactly the point of swami's capncrunch example... you simply cannot just make an outrageous claim and say that it's "innocent until proven guilty"... you must prove it.

philosophical or logical theorems, scientific theories, and rational ideas are not "innocent until proven guilty". that's ridiculous.

people have been using psychedelics for thousands of thousands of years. not once has anything about the cosmos been discovered as a result. we have learned a great deal about the universe and our own solar system from telescopes, space probes, and by applying the laws of physics in the science we call astronomy.

never has anything of the sort been reported from space travel on psychedelics, despite literally millions of trips.

there are a great many things one can learn from the entheogens. undiscovered data on distant planetary systems or stars is not one of them. if it were possible to travel the universe by tripping, it would be.


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Offlineguitarmon
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Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 62
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: ]
    #2129182 - 11/22/03 01:28 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

You're barking up the wrong tree. Look back and read the very first post in this thread ... I simply asked these questions:

"Do you think its possible to travel and/or visit other dimensions and/or places via the use/help of shrooms/acid or whatever drugs? Traveling using the mind/consciousness?"

Some folks think it is possible, other don't ... thats fine.

I happen to think it IS in the realm of possibility. I can't prove it though, its just a thought ... an idea ... a theory.

Funny thing is, those who think that its NOT possible ... can't prove it either. So there you have it.



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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: ]
    #2129221 - 11/22/03 01:58 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

DUDE:

type 2 errors are just as bad as type 1 errors!

decreasing alpha (the probablity of making a type 1 error) only increases beta (the probability of making a type 2 error)

For those of you that don't know statistics, Type 1 error is when you falsely conclude that a proposition is true. Type 2 error is when you falsely conclude that a proposition is false.

"Burden of Proof" I think was mainly invented for jury trial and hard science. But in a hypothetical debate, I think that it facilitates the commission of type 2 errors.


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Anonymous

Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2129361 - 11/22/03 04:22 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

we are not dealing with statistics.

this has nothing to do with confidence intervals, P-values, and what have you.


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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: ]
    #2129557 - 11/22/03 07:22 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I know. But it is a metaphor worthy of consideration. If your standards are too stringent, you run the risk of "disproving" something that is actually true, or something that can't be proven true or false. And that, my friend, would be just as bad as believing something to be true when it isn't.


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Anonymous

Re: interdimensional/interstellar travel via psychedelics? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2129668 - 11/22/03 08:57 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

i don't think it would. i'd rather be unaware of something which is actually true than believe something which is false.

i'd rather believe only few things, most of which are true, than many things, most of which are not.


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