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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Even more time travel.
    #1887470 - 09/06/03 03:14 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I?m having a sudden thought about time travel. Really its about the different timelines that get, I dunno, created?, as a byproduct of time travel. Uh, think of it as pollution. Take back to the future for example. Marty goes back in time, albeit accidentaly, and while there alters the timeline first by pushing his dad out of the way of a car accident. The same car accident that we learned earlier had introduced Marty?s father to his mother and her family. Marty?s being there results in a series of changes in the new timeline that, at the end of the movie when Marty goes Back to the Future, he discovers he has caused. And to his families great superfluity.

By having Marty return to a different timeline than whence he left, the writer has circumvented the problem of paradox introduced with the conception of time travel. If it had happened another way, if Marty had gone back in time, messed things up enough so that it would have later been impossible for him to have gone back in time in the first place - ahh you see the problem then. But the writer is clever. He has writen of a universe where multiple timelines can and, apparently, do exist. Here we don?t have to worry about any nasty paradox eidolons because when Marty goes back in time, he created a new timeline and when traveling into the future, left from the new one he created. If he had wanted to return to the same timeline, or reality, where ever it was that he left a dead Doc behind, I suppose there is a way. By going farther into the past than whence he arrived to change his future, then forwards (a return anyway) to the year 1985, he would have returned to a time where past had come to pass as if he had never left. (hereby refered to as Time Manuver One)

For the last sentence to be true, we must suppose two things. Firstly, we must accept the idea of fate, or predestination perhaps, any ideal really that supposes time must unfold in a certain way and there is no chance that things could go one way or the other. We must believe that when a die is rolled it will always turn up 3 dots, no matter how many times we go back in time inside a Delorian and watch it happen again. How hard we throw that die is a choice, but if free will is around it creates some problems when we want to have Marty come back to the exact same reality in 1985. To some, the tenents of their belief system deny them enjoying a great movie. An alternative to this ideal is the Chaos theory that I heard about first from watching Jurassic Park. The Chaotician Ian Malcolm suggest that there are so many variables to the way things interact that there is no telling how things will end up. I guess for him chemical reactions would be orgies of random interactions. Right now I?m thinking the Laws of nature force matter and energy to behave under set rules that are exact and apply uniformly, the universe is going to progress along natural law. Physics is going to tell that die how to bounce up and down until gravity pulls it to a stop at 3. So to me it is between predestination and freewill. For the sake of this writing I?m considering time to pass as it would, every time it is observed sans disturbance and interruption.

That isn?t to say that sending a Delorian into the past won?t create a new timeline if nothing is changed. Even the presence of a Delorian in 1955 is going to disturb the grass of the field he pops into. This evidence of life and mineral being disturbed and interrupted is enough to warrant the existance of a new timeline, IMHO. But if Marty does use Time Manuver One it is unlikely that the events the timeline he jumped forward from will have affected his parents so severely for any noticable difference for him when he returns.

The second thing we must concede is that we are condemning the world we have left behind, for we haven?t lost the old timeline. Out there somewhere, there are two Libyans wondering where the hell their target went. If everytime we travel into the past we are creating a branch off the timeline then the reality we leave must be allowed to continue. And it will, forever without Marty Mcfly. A bit of a Pandora?s Box. When we build this Delorian time machine we get the ability to travel into the past, but at least the first time you go back you know you are saying goodbye to a set of people who are your friends and family, who will continue on a timeline where Marty has left it for a branch in the past. This is of coarse supposing that new realities are created everytime we travel into the past. And unfortunately travelling forwards might even have the same problem.

Going forward Marty?s body leaves this timeline, arrives later to another timeline where he has been missing for however long he jumped forward. Question is, is he creating a new timeline at that point in the future? Is there also created a timeline where he intended to travel into the future, but where he never arrives? Since I can?t see any good reason for this happening if his time machine works properly, there is no need to concern ourselves with The Lonely Family Effect when travelling forwards. The flux capacitor will either work and Marty will (seamingly to him) reapear in the same timeline later, or it wont and no one will ever see him again. There IS a way to test it. Okay, Marty travels ten minutes into the future, then eleven minutes into the past, then waits twelve minutes to see if his car arrives in the future. If Marty keeps doing this, going to the past to watch himself go forwards then waiting to see if he returns, over and over 3 possibilities ensue: he never returns, he always returns, he sometimes returns. If he never returns we must accept that new timelines are created everytime he goes into the future and he is leaving one behind everytime he goes. If he always returns we know that either, no other timelines are created, or, if they are, we will never have contact with them and the same possibility of a Lonely Family Effect exists. If he sometimes returns, well, then it depends on the ratio , but if its 50/50 we can suppose that both are created and we have a chance to hit either each time we go forwards. But if for some reason a timeline is left to continue where Marty does not return even when his flux capacity works properly, whether you go forwards or backwards in time, the universe you leave behind would never have proof your time machine worked. If this is the case we quickly get a number of realities continueing merrily along, cluttering our thougths and the universe they all exist in as a kind of pollution. Back to the Future never answered these questions, or at least they only answered them insofar as Marty wasn?t concerned with possibly leaving countless timelines without himself. But because we believe in predestination, and because we like to see Marty happy instead of sad, let it be known that he always returns.



I dont know if i have any other thougths on this. I just started watching BTTF and I decided I had to write down my thoughts, it's still paused upstairs and I'm goign to go finish watching it and maybe I'll have more...

btw, Wouldn?t it be crazy if that ratio was pi? That would really say something about the ?shape? of time.


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We have to answer our own prayers


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Even more time travel. [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1887757 - 09/06/03 05:38 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I remember Mckenna's comment about time-travel on Art Bell in 1997 - he said something like "If its even possible, you can only go as far back in time as the first occurance of time-travel, because before then there WAS no time travel! And suddenly then at the first occurance there would be a surge of time-travellers coming back from the future to witness the first time-travel, and everything would change instantly!"

heh that guy kicked ass :wink:

Interesting shit, recalcitrant


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (09/06/03 05:39 AM)


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
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Re: Even more time travel. [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1888061 - 09/06/03 10:49 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Here's my take on the subject:

Imagine, if you will, that since the proverbial 'dawn of time' there has existed an infinate number of universes, or concurrent realities, or whatever else you want to calm em. Now - every single 'universe' has it's own precise (and absolutely unique) chain of events. Universe 1 and Universe 2 might be exact perfect copies of eachother with only one little teeny tiny difference between the two of them (like a person's foot landing 0.0001872965 micometers to the left) ...OR... there could be a massive difference between the two - depending on what sort of change is originally made, and how that change effects all other events in that universe's chain of events. (example: if Universe A is 'our' existance, and in Universe B fish never made their way out of the ocean...then by the time Universe B reached the same point in time we're at now things would obviously be very different for our planet)

In this aspect - time travelers wouldn't actually create new existances as they cruised around throughout time, but rather they'd be skipping back and forth between ones that have always been there...coexisting right alongside the one they're familiar with (e.g. it's more of a shift in consciousness then an actual physical change in existence)


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
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Re: Even more time travel. [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #1888982 - 09/06/03 06:58 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

yeah, i get what you mean about that infinite universe thing. i really do. but infinity is one of those can of worms that anybody can say anything about, really. If everything is infinite, anything we say is the truth. Lies are true in some universe, infinity is crazy big.

as to what mckenna said, sounds like he is denying the possibility of mulitple timelines. I was going to talk about how if the writers of BTTF were smart they would have made it so that the 1985 we see in the beggining of the movie is the same one Marty returns to at the end, and that we learned how he influenced it by going into the past. This writing strategy would have required more skill, it would have forced the writer to make a bunch of set ups in the beggining that get explained as we see Marty interact with the past. It would have been much more challenging to write. It would also have supposed that there is only one timeline and that due to the paradox idea, Marty's influence on the past would have happend the "first time" around. but if the "first time" 1955 came along, marty had yet to influence his past, and that how much of an influence he had would be dependant on the choices he made, then HOW, HOW, HOW could his influence have made for a different future. Its all very complicated.


--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers


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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Registered: 04/20/02
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Re: Even more time travel. [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #1889023 - 09/06/03 07:26 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mystical_Craven said:
(e.g. it's more of a shift in consciousness then an actual physical change in existence)




If that is true, and when I take a psychedelic i am "shifting my consciousness" then it is presumable that I may NOT have returned to the reality I left prior to those 6 grams. But my physical body didn't shift concurrent realities, so that "shift" or "phase" (whatever) could not possibly have "shifted" me to a universe where events occured diffently prior to the shift.

AND THAT!!! is hella good news because I would hate to dose 8 grams and come out of it to find myself in universe b, where fish never started walking on land 500 million years ago.


--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers


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Offlinetitan_shroomer
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Re: Even more time travel. [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1889296 - 09/06/03 09:25 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

yeah just what u said recalcitrant


--------------------
fuk the police
-NWA

im not an anarcist im a FREEDOM fighter
-Me

God damn it i dont like this brain i want a new one.
-Me

nothing happens till it moves
-Eistien


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Registered: 06/16/02
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Re: Even more time travel. [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1891415 - 09/07/03 04:47 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

lol recalcitrant...that's not quite what I meant.

Universe A & B (as mentioned in an earlier post) would have only been intertwined to some extent up to the point that the aforementioned major change took place (e.g. aquatic life converting into amphibious life) at which point, both 'universes' would sorta branch off from eachother and begin heading off in completely different directions...all the while becoming more and more intertwined with other existences that followed a similiar path, sorta in the same way that a maze works - while transversing a maze you are inevitably going to eventually reach some sort of fork where you'll have to choose one direction or the other (such is the very nature of mazes) and depending on which path you choose to follow, different final destinations will become availible to you. So if you head left, for example, then you'll likely continue down a completely unrelated path then you would have had you originally chose to go right. ....... Obviously this isn't the best analogy, but hopefully it still made sense.

Now as far as the whole 'shift in consciousness' in the way you're using the term - again, that's not quite what I meant (perhaps I need to start thinking these things through a little more...or up my vocab or something) That sort of 'shift in consciousness' would actually be a part of the events that occured in any given timeline (e.g. part of 'universe 34967' might be a psychedelic experience you have where you 'travel' to some bizzarro world where the grass is blue and the sky is green, and in 'universe 34968' you instead experience a different bizzarro world where things like unicorns and faeries are commonplace...with absolutely everything else between the two existences being completely identical) So, what I was refferring to as 'shift in consciousness' was actually more like someone changing their clothes (again, another pretty weak analogy) But it's the idea of switching between any number of different realities based on the choices we make throughout our lives...following the 'path' we chose through the great maze of existence. Par exampla: I might one day make a completely spontaneous and irrational choice to sell everything I have and become a drifter...this would take me away from the timeline I'm in right now (as well as whatever final destination I'm currently heading towards) and place me in a differnent reality where I wind up living out the rest of my days walking the Earth Kung Fu style. So in essence - I switch from one timeline to another based entirely on how I chose to experience reality.


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Even more time travel. [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1891421 - 09/07/03 04:49 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Time is not linear. That much I know.


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InvisibleSHiZNO
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Registered: 03/14/03
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Re: Even more time travel. [Re: Shroomism]
    #1914687 - 09/14/03 05:48 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

John Titor - Time traveler from 2036? Or genius hoax?
For those of you who don't know who John Titor is/was, he first appeared in November of 2000 on a small time travel BBS, claiming to be a soldier on an unclassified mission from the year 2036.

As you can expect, there was much skepticism at first. However, over a period of a few months, Titor produced photographic evidence of his time machine and extensively detailed operating manuals. As well, he made several, very specific predictions about the future (some of which are now in the past and have come to pass). Among other things, he correctly stated the occurrence of these events, well before their time:

The 9-11 tragedy
The Colombia disaster
The war in Iraq
New breakthroughs in physics, which have just recently occurred
The Patriot Act

Also, Titor made several statements about his "past," which are likely to become our future:

A civil war in the U.S. concerning civil liberties (unlawful search and seizures, no due process in holding, etc.) will slowly begin mounting late next year and into 2005. Our own government will be the main enemy.

Gradually, other world governments get involved. Slowly, the events culminate into what is akin to WWIII. Though very brief, 3 billion+ are killed. This leads to a drastic change in community values and daily life.

The existence and validity of the multi-verse theory will be proven.

Titor's tale is fascinating, whether you believe it or not. Many physicists have agreed that the story is very plausible given Titor's description of how his unit's machine functioned and what physics it relied upon.

For more information and pictures concerning John Titor, check out http://www.johntitor.com . It is quite interesting.

Any thoughts or comments?



--------------------
...


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Offlinedaba
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Re: Even more time travel. [Re: SHiZNO]
    #1914730 - 09/14/03 06:21 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I think it's a hoax.


--------------------
Fold for The Shroomery!


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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
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Re: Even more time travel. [Re: daba]
    #1925585 - 09/17/03 05:16 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

any htoughts or comments? plenty!

but i'll save them until 2006 :smile:


also, do ANY of you understand this:
http://www.astro.ku.dk/%7Ecramer/RelViz/text/geom_web/node1.html
???


--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Even more time travel. [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1925986 - 09/17/03 07:09 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I think it's a hoax written by a fundamentalist chauvinist Jew living in Nebraska, with no real sci-fi writing quality.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineBhairabas
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Registered: 07/21/03
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Re: Even more time travel. [Re: Alan Stone]
    #1926375 - 09/17/03 09:23 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah I heard about his guy.. Imagine if he was real..


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Even more time travel. [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1929494 - 09/18/03 05:13 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

We're actually travelling through time right now you know... and now.... and now... still going... weird isn't it? we're time-travellers!

We time-travel every day, too at varying speeds and in varying directions and with varying destinations - like if I'm in my car on the way to work or something, and I'm running late, I'll be sitting there in my car but in my mind I travel through time to when I arrive late at work when my boss is going "dude what the hell... you're fuckin late.." - I'm still in my car, but I'm also visiting the future.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Even more time travel. [Re: Strumpling]
    #1932038 - 09/19/03 12:17 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Strumpling said:
We're actually travelling through time right now you know... and now.... and now... still going... weird isn't it? we're time-travellers!

We time-travel every day, too at varying speeds and in varying directions and with varying destinations - like if I'm in my car on the way to work or something, and I'm running late, I'll be sitting there in my car but in my mind I travel through time to when I arrive late at work when my boss is going "dude what the hell... you're fuckin late.." - I'm still in my car, but I'm also visiting the future. 




Dude, that is insightful as hell! Never would have even thought of that myself!

We are traveling time, most definitely, and it must be noted that the passing of time is completely relative... "Oh god, the clock is going really slow today"... "Really? You mean it has been two fucking hours now?!"

:grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Even more time travel. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1932165 - 09/19/03 01:30 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

> travel through time to when I arrive late at work

How can you tell the difference between when you travel through time and when time travels through you?


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Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Even more time travel. [Re: Seuss]
    #1932338 - 09/19/03 02:31 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

either way man..... its not like we really know :wink:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Amazon Shop: Terrence McKenna

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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