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OfflineGoBlue!
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Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos
    #1130789 - 12/11/02 01:10 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos

http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2002-12-10-stanford-cloning_x.htm

Sounds exciting to me!  :grin: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1130802 - 12/11/02 01:19 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

wouldnt a clone be nothing more than a twin, not exactly the same but really close? is it immoral to have twins?


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: 1stimer]
    #1130805 - 12/11/02 01:22 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Hell, I don't know why cloning is considered immoral. I'm hoping someone takes the position that it is and explains why.


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OfflineRemy
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1130837 - 12/11/02 01:42 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I believe the main argument against cloning is that a clone would have no soul.


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: Remy]
    #1130841 - 12/11/02 01:46 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I believe the main argument against cloning is that a clone would have no soul.

How can anyone know?  How can anyone even know that the soul exists in the first place?  :confused: 


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OfflineComponent
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos *DELETED* [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1130845 - 12/11/02 01:51 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by Component

Reason for deletion: ...



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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: Component]
    #1130870 - 12/11/02 02:07 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Actually, cloning isn't in our biology because if we were to make exact copies of ourselves, we couldn't evolve quickly enough.  Very few animals have survived with only one sex in their speicies, because they effectively clone themselves through virgin births, and are unable to adapt (evolve) quickly to changing environments.  That's why two sexes is predominant - it's possible to combine the best features of each sex.

While we're asking rhetorical questions, I've got one:

If God didn't want us to clone ourselves, then why did he make it possible? (rhetorical becuase I don't believe in God)  :blush: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (12/11/02 02:20 AM)


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryo [Re: Component]
    #1131371 - 12/11/02 11:08 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

fucking with shit is what we're best at, so I say let them clone!


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: Remy]
    #1131413 - 12/11/02 11:35 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I believe the main argument against cloning is that a clone would have no soul.

Well if you go with (and I can't remember his name right now) the guy who wrote "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" 's theory about the pineal gland, you see that it's developed at 49 days after conception in a human fetus - the same time a pre-born's sex is determined. Rick Strassman (it just clicked) suggested that maybe this is when the soul enters the body - if that is the case, then by cloning embryos you would technically just be giving the collective souls waiting for bodies another door they could open.

Just a thought.


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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Offlineribbit
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryo [Re: Dogomush]
    #1131417 - 12/11/02 11:37 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

funny, i just done a paper on stem cell research and cloning.

the actual debate is not the soul, but 'is it morally right to prevent life'

prevent life: extracting the stem cells from the embryo, destroying its possiblity of becoming human.

i believe that cloning is the science way of trying to acknowledge that taking a fertilzed somewhat natural embryo does make you speculate.

some feel that cloning an embryo does not put it within the guidlines of being human, because it is so unnatural.

i am for cloning and all aspects of stem cell research. i think that protestors are kind of ignorant. 'speaking of americans' because we sacraficed to many to count native americans so that they can have the life they live. i bet they would change their mind real quick if they became terminally ill, in which this research could save them.

with this technology and research we are mearly doing what every living organism does. strive for life.


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: nubious]
    #1131469 - 12/11/02 12:00 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"Well if you go with (and I can't remember his name right now) the guy who wrote "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" 's theory about the pineal gland, you see that it's developed at 49 days after conception in a human fetus - the same time a pre-born's sex is determined. Rick Strassman (it just clicked) suggested that maybe this is when the soul enters the body - if that is the case, then by cloning embryos you would technically just be giving the collective souls waiting for bodies another door they could open."

I agree. also, god has nothing to do with this or scientific advancement. science cant be restrained by religious rhetoric.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

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Offlinenubious
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: 1stimer]
    #1131544 - 12/11/02 12:26 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Just keep in mind that god is just dog spelled backwards... :wink: 


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: nubious]
    #1131546 - 12/11/02 12:26 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

after posting I looked at my avatar.. heh... son of a bitch!


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1131742 - 12/11/02 08:06 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

If God didn't want us to clone ourselves, then why did he make it possible? (rhetorical becuase I don't believe in God)    :blush:

Hey Blue! i imagine a believer would say so that we have an opportunity(yet again) to test our own free will  :grin: 


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1131836 - 12/11/02 09:08 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Good point Freak, but how am I supposed to know cloning is wrong if it's not mentioned in the bible?  Should I just assume it's wrong based on.... er....um....
Hey, why do religiuos people assume it's wrong again???  :wink: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: Component]
    #1131867 - 12/11/02 09:26 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"Some Italian dude already cloned a human and it is due to be born in January or sometime soon."

Are you yankin' my chain? Do you have link to somthing about this? I must find out more.


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focusing
Flow
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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1131879 - 12/11/02 09:34 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

but how am I supposed to know cloning is wrong if it's not mentioned in the bible?

i think by that criteria it would probably be considered to be in the same category as  Masturbation  :grin: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1131884 - 12/11/02 09:37 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Haha, good call!  :laugh: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: David_Scape]
    #1131889 - 12/11/02 09:41 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I found a ton of links. Here's one from CNN (very reliable source):

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/04/06/human.clone/index.html

Kind of interesting. The article says this doctor also "succeeded in helping a 62-year-old woman give birth to a boy"

Edit: Here's an even newer link:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/11/27/italy.cloning/


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (12/11/02 09:48 AM)


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1131895 - 12/11/02 09:44 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

as soon a you can clone a human being, then you will be able to change certain traits of the baby, ie intelligence, muscle strength, etc. This will OF COURSE be only available to the elite rich who will make their generations of families superior to other human beings, and so they will become superhumans and will tend to call themselves Gods. Anyway, human cloning is another way to divide humans from each other, causing more conflict between us. There will be people who are for cloning, other against it. It's kinda like religion, and nationalities, all these things divide human from being one. that's why we have wars, and cloning will just be adding to the fire.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1132159 - 12/11/02 11:37 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I say go for it. It will give us answers, and then new questions, and maybe in the process we will come to a better understanding about the nature of human life.

If the cloned baby will be born in January or February, maybe it'll be an Aquarius... How fitting.  :wink: 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Offlineribbit
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: Adamist]
    #1132247 - 12/11/02 12:10 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

heres your one stop shop link for all information in this matter. it is updated regulary with the latest news and info. its great


stem cell research news


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1132364 - 12/11/02 12:52 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Reproductive cloning is wrong because it is child abuse.Clones are notoriously unhealthy.

Theraputic cloning good, reproductive cloning bad.


--------------------
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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1132418 - 12/11/02 01:10 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Reproductive cloning is wrong because it is child abuse.Clones are notoriously unhealthy.

Just because past experiments have turned out that way doesn't mean that the problems can't be fixed and clones could be born just as healthy as anyone else...

I think it's going to be done, regardless of any laws, ethical or political.  :crazy: 


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Anonymous

Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1132475 - 12/11/02 01:30 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I agree with you but then I read the article. I wonder how many took the time to read it.

"Contacted by telephone on Saturday, Antinori told Reuters "I am not talking to journalists."

Here we see that it may not even be true.

Dr Ehab Kelada, clinical director at the London Fertility Centre, said Antinori must clarify the report immediately.

"The scientific community will be very alarmed," he told Reuters.

"If this report is true, it is shocking. We don't know how safe cloning is for humans nd it is dangerous to embark on this path without proper regulations or guidelines."


No regulations or guidelines? I think, and I am just spitballing here, we probably need some kind of guidelines since we are dealing with human life.

Rudolf Jaenisch, professor of biology and a leading cloning scientist based at the Whitehead Institute at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said: "It is totally outrageous and irresponsible to attempt cloning of humans when we know there is a very high probability of severe abnormalities, even if the baby survived to birth, which is extremely doubtful.

Are you guys saying that you don't care if a human is born with severe abnormalities?

"In fact, death before birth would be the best outcome."

Antinori has previously pledged to attempt to clone a baby by the end of 2001.

Richard Nicholson, editor of the UK-based Bulletin of Medical Ethics, said he was sceptical of the claim, but said if it was true the baby's future was grim.

"I don't believe Dr Antinori has in any way considered the welfare of the offspring," Nicholson told the Press Association.

"I think he is trying to achieve personal notoriety. I don't believe he is truly trying to advance science for the benefit of mankind.


I agree. "Dr." Antinori is nothing more than a shock jock in a lab coat as far as I'm concerned. He has the morals of a lab rat. I wonder if he has Dr. Mengele as a partner?

"With the sort of publicity-seeking Antinori goes in for, any resulting child clone is likely to become little more than a freak show.

"Given the accelerated ageing seen in cloned animals, this child is not going to have a particularly happy or normal childhood."


Biologists in general have some pretty disturbing factoids surrounding them. Eugenics is but one.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryo [Re: ribbit]
    #1132499 - 12/11/02 01:41 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I like this topic so far. However, I believe that most cloning will be just  organs  and not whole humans!

Most people against cloning really don't know the facts.

Stem cells are not human beings! We should use them dammit!  :mad:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



Edited by Murex (12/11/02 01:42 PM)


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: ]
    #1132509 - 12/11/02 01:45 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Leave it to YOU Mr Shrooms to ruin a good story with FACTS! :mad:



:grin: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1132794 - 12/11/02 03:47 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I don't support cloning whole human beings. I find it rather pointless, as chodamunky said it will just be an aesthetic thing for the rich. I hardly think they will create "superior" humans (though they may perceive them to be). Hair color, eye color, height, etc..., will just become fads like baggy pants or tie dye shirts.

I do however fully support stem cell research. I think the benefit to mankind will far outweigh the cost ex: almost any organ (except a whole brain) replaced, with little or no chance of rejection, brain cells for those suffering with alzheimers and other neurological disorders. I can't even begin to list all of the possibilites.



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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


Edited by 3eyedgod (12/11/02 03:49 PM)


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1132890 - 12/11/02 04:22 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Hair color, eye color, height, etc..., will just become fads like baggy pants or tie dye shirts.

Don't we have colored contect lenses, liposuction and plastic surgery? Why aren't these things causing contraversy?

:confused: :confused: :confused: 


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: Murex]
    #1132955 - 12/11/02 04:48 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Did you say  contraversey?  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


^ ^ v v < > < > B A [start]


--------------------
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OfflineRemy
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1133183 - 12/11/02 06:13 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

In reply to:

How can anyone know? How can anyone even know that the soul exists in the first place?




How can anyone know that matter really exists? Nobody has ever seen matter in its singular form.


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: ]
    #1134927 - 12/12/02 10:43 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Ya, I noticed that a human clone in January is an uncertainty. Though I have no objection to cloning in general, I would agree that this Italian dude is pretty irresponsible if he's not yet sure he can get a healthy human out of the process.


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: Remy]
    #1135014 - 12/12/02 11:18 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

How can anyone know that matter really exists? Nobody has ever seen matter in its singular form.

Who cares if matter is seen in its singular form?  It's observed countless other ways.  It's easy to observe matter as a solid, liquid, or gas.  But how does one observe a soul?  How can you determine whether or not a clone has a soul?  I can tell you with absolute certainty that a clone has matter.  :tongue: 


--------------------
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OfflineViveka
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: 1stimer]
    #1135020 - 12/12/02 11:21 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"wouldnt a clone be nothing more than a twin, not exactly the same but really close?"

Not hardly. Although twins may be damn near physical replicas of each other, they are still created by the combination of TWO parent's genes.

Of course a clone is not the same thing as a twin because a twin is the natural offspring of TWO parents. Now if some scientist made twins by cloning, then those twins would both be replicas of ONE parent and you would have one original and two copies of the same person on the planet.

A clone is a REPLICA of one person.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1135434 - 12/12/02 01:24 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I have no objection to cloning in general
wait until you learn the truth about your dad


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