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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Brave New World - geneticaly engineering humans [Re: Metasyn]
    #979633 - 10/21/02 12:55 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Ah, genetic engineering... the epitome of slippery slopes.


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OfflineViveka
refutation bias
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Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
Re: Brave New World - geneticaly engineering humans [Re: xganon]
    #980951 - 10/21/02 10:34 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"As soon as the technology is ready, genetic engineering must be made mandatory by fascist means for the good of not only the human race in it's entirety, but also each of it's individual members."

WONDERFUL!

"Stupidity is a genetic disease, like hemophilia."

Do you seriously believe a person's intelligence is dicatated entirely by their genetics??

"The bulk of this species has proven incapable of making it's own decisions. They appear to be breeding more than those who are capable. "

That's a nice general statement and all. But let's not forget the human race is comprised of INDIVIDUALS, wether some people act like cattle or not.

"If the government really was aimed towards the collective good of all, it would be spending the bulk of it's income on technology?"

This of course, leads to the question, What is your definition of "the collective good". Surely the collective could never agree on that.

Ever play Civilization (or any game of that nature)? Doesn't the culture who climbs the tech-tree the fastest win (along with all of it's members, which becomes all humanity)?

What happens after you WIN a video game?? That's it. Game over. No more game to play. I would prefer to play the game as nature has laid it out rather than race to some technological eutopia where people are actually deluded enough to believe that all of humanities problems could be erased by manipulating the human genome.

Why should we allow anyone to be born into a inferior body?

For one thing, because it is less intrusive into peoples lives them FORCING people to comply with a fascistly-implemented human engineering plan.
Aside from that, your question sounds like something Data from Star Trek would ask. I could give you a typical Captain Piccard type response: Something along the lines of "Well, Data, you wouldn't understand this because you're just a fucking robot, but human suffering and hardship are actually very powerful catalysts for human change, development, and progress." By the way, i dont watch Star Trek so if this doesn't sound right, well whatever.

Basically, what you are saying is that anyone alive at this very moment who is afflicted with a disease or deformity or malfunction is somehow less human or less valid than a non-afflicted, "perfectly healthy" person. Maybe you need a good disease or two to enhance your appreciation for this life that you are fortunate enough to live right now.
Look at Stephen Hawkins. Sure, he is severely disabled and cant even talk without the aid of his wheelchair, but he has pushed very far into his field and forced the scientific community to evaluate alot of theory. Sure, some of his stuff has been disproven, but so what. The point is, because of his "disability", Hawkins focused his energy on something other than going about his daily routine. Weelchair bound, he did alot for science. Now he is just one simple example.

Now if everyone was "perfect" and without any biological malfunction as you suggest, don't you think the majority of the population would become complacent? Thus becoming even bigger wastes. Do you think, after awhile, that anyone would really appreciate their "superior" status amongst a populous of fellow "superiors"? No, they'd take it for granted just like everyone eventually takes everything for granted. Nothing would be different, mankind would still have just as many problems, just different ones.

Furthermore, do you really think mankind's science is perfect enough to fool nature? On the most basic level, I foresee immense complications as the result of toying with a science that is not perfect and never will be. Besides that, there is a reason things become diseased, and on a macro-level, it is simply population control. Cancer and hemophilia and hepatitis and all the nasty diseases which afflict mankind and all other species of life is natures way of saying, "Alright, you done fucked up now, time for a purge." And do you a think a person who had their cancer gene removed but smoked 5 packs a day, ate nothing but red meat, and lived next to a nuclear waster site would still not develop cancer. Whatever dude. And if they didn't, it would be something equally nasty or worse like emphesema or liver failure or something.

Where do people get off thinking genes is all there is to the human experience?

Main point is, Nature rules, and there is nothing we can do about it.


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OfflineTraveller
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Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 309
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: Brave New World - geneticaly engineering humans [Re: Viveka]
    #981085 - 10/21/02 11:25 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I like this debate...it doesn't look like it can be resolved quickly but perhaps it's important that we think about it? by the sounds of it there will be small-scale genetic engineering of foetus's (foeti? is that how it works? which stage of developement gets "engineered" anyway? i suppose it'd be difficult trying to engineer individual sperm) around the time many of us are having children.

if as someone suggested this technology was forced on the entire human race - well basically that's not going to happen is it? not soon anyway, maybe in the distant future but the folks writing the articles are saying this stuff will be commonplace within a few decades!! meaning that people who can afford it will be able to "improve" their babies, giving them - among other things, but perhaps most significantly - longer life spans....


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Registered: 04/19/02
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Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Brave New World - geneticaly engineering humans [Re: xganon]
    #981277 - 10/22/02 12:08 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"As soon as the technology is ready, genetic engineering must be made mandatory by fascist means for the good of not only the human race in it's entirety, but also each of it's individual members."

WONDERFUL!
___________________________________________________________
aint it !
___________________________________________________________

"Stupidity is a genetic disease, like hemophilia."

Do you seriously believe a person's intelligence is dicatated entirely by their genetics??

___________________________________________________________
I do
___________________________________________________________


"The bulk of this species has proven incapable of making it's own decisions. They appear to be breeding more than those who are capable. "

That's a nice general statement and all. But let's not forget the human race is comprised of INDIVIDUALS, wether some people act like cattle or not.
___________________________________________________________
The human race is mostly comprised of inviduals right now, but imprinted, brainwashed inviduals, who rely on religion or politics to govern their lifes.
___________________________________________________________


"If the government really was aimed towards the collective good of all, it would be spending the bulk of it's income on technology?"

This of course, leads to the question, What is your definition of "the collective good". Surely the collective could never agree on that.

___________________________________________________________
I would say the collective good is what doesn't get in the way of nature, and technology, but learns how to use it to their benefit.
___________________________________________________________

Ever play Civilization (or any game of that nature)? Doesn't the culture who climbs the tech-tree the fastest win (along with all of it's members, which becomes all humanity)?

What happens after you WIN a video game?? That's it. Game over. No more game to play. I would prefer to play the game as nature has laid it out rather than race to some technological eutopia where people are actually deluded enough to believe that all of humanities problems could be erased by manipulating the human genome.

___________________________________________________________
Who defines nature! We do, and I say nature is whatever is possible!!! Nature made us, which has a brain that uses electricity to work! Nature is what is around us, just take a look, science is natural because it fits in the boundaries of what is possible.
___________________________________________________________


Why should we allow anyone to be born into a inferior body?

For one thing, because it is less intrusive into peoples lives them FORCING people to comply with a fascistly-implemented human engineering plan.
Aside from that, your question sounds like something Data from Star Trek would ask. I could give you a typical Captain Piccard type response: Something along the lines of "Well, Data, you wouldn't understand this because you're just a fucking robot, but human suffering and hardship are actually very powerful catalysts for human change, development, and progress." By the way, i dont watch Star Trek so if this doesn't sound right, well whatever.

___________________________________________________________
So you would rather be born with an inferior body?
___________________________________________________________

Basically, what you are saying is that anyone alive at this very moment who is afflicted with a disease or deformity or malfunction is somehow less human or less valid than a non-afflicted, "perfectly healthy" person. Maybe you need a good disease or two to enhance your appreciation for this life that you are fortunate enough to live right now.
Look at Stephen Hawkins. Sure, he is severely disabled and cant even talk without the aid of his wheelchair, but he has pushed very far into his field and forced the scientific community to evaluate alot of theory. Sure, some of his stuff has been disproven, but so what. The point is, because of his "disability", Hawkins focused his energy on something other than going about his daily routine. Weelchair bound, he did alot for science. Now he is just one simple example.

Now if everyone was "perfect" and without any biological malfunction as you suggest, don't you think the majority of the population would become complacent? Thus becoming even bigger wastes. Do you think, after awhile, that anyone would really appreciate their "superior" status amongst a populous of fellow "superiors"? No, they'd take it for granted just like everyone eventually takes everything for granted. Nothing would be different, mankind would still have just as many problems, just different ones.

___________________________________________________________
I beleive that future evolution, that contains these supiror humans, will be well past their invidual selfish desires that create problems like violence.
___________________________________________________________

Furthermore, do you really think mankind's science is perfect enough to fool nature? On the most basic level, I foresee immense complications as the result of toying with a science that is not perfect and never will be. Besides that, there is a reason things become diseased, and on a macro-level, it is simply population control. Cancer and hemophilia and hepatitis and all the nasty diseases which afflict mankind and all other species of life is natures way of saying, "Alright, you done fucked up now, time for a purge." And do you a think a person who had their cancer gene removed but smoked 5 packs a day, ate nothing but red meat, and lived next to a nuclear waster site would still not develop cancer. Whatever dude. And if they didn't, it would be something equally nasty or worse like emphesema or liver failure or something.

___________________________________________________________
Right now, are science isn't perfect enough to fool nature, maybe it will be sometime in the future.
___________________________________________________________


Where do people get off thinking genes is all there is to the human experience?
___________________________________________________________
From experimentation.
___________________________________________________________

Main point is, Nature rules, and there is nothing we can do about it.
___________________________________________________________
May I remind you, that we are part of nature. And There is plenty I can do with my life. I appreciate that nature has allowed man the luxuries of such things as devices to give us warmth.
___________________________________________________________


Edited by Earth_Droid (10/22/02 03:31 AM)


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InvisibleMetasyn
one

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 239
Loc: PNW
Re: Brave New World - geneticaly engineering humans [Re: Viveka]
    #981444 - 10/22/02 12:59 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"What happens after you WIN a video game?? That's it. Game over. No more game to play. I would prefer to play the game as nature has laid it out rather than race to some technological eutopia where people are actually deluded enough to believe that all of humanities problems could be erased by manipulating the human genome."

The game ends when you reach the pinnacle of technology because the designers couldn't imagine what comes next. If we didn't have to worry about annoying physical imperfections the imagination can't even begin to conceive of what is possible. Creative expression, exploration of the universe, love, elevation of human consciousness, etc.

I sort of agree with the merit of living in an imperfect world as a learning experience; the whole sweet wouldn't be as sweet without the sour argument. But progress is progress. We are always moving forward. What if ancient humans had decided "you know, I think agriculture would make life too easy. I'm going to stay in the forest and eat berries with all the danger and uncertainty it entails." We wouldn't have a lot of the amazing beauty that exists in the world today. True, genetic engineering (or technology in general) will never be a cure-all solution, but it will allow us to concentrate on things we deem more important, just as ancient humans gave up spending all day looking for food in favor of developing art, culture, science, and philsophy.


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Offlinejayson
earthling
Male
Registered: 08/07/02
Posts: 52
Loc: Vic Australia
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Brave New World - geneticaly engineering humans [Re: Metasyn]
    #981606 - 10/22/02 02:12 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

You've got some good points i must admit. But are the people in charge wise enough to use this type of technology in a beneficial manner. And not just for their own benefit ether.

But progress is progress. We are always moving forward. What if ancient humans had decided "you know, I think agriculture would make life too easy. I'm going to stay in the forest and eat berries with all the danger and uncertainty it entails." We wouldn't have a lot of the amazing beauty that exists in the world today. True, genetic engineering (or technology in general) will never be a cure-all solution, but it will allow us to concentrate on things we deem more important, just as ancient humans gave up spending all day looking for food in favor of developing art, culture, science, and philsophy.

This especially is a good point. I personally like most of the technology i have available to me. But are we better off. Who can say for sure.  :confused:
 


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Invisiblexganon
polydrug abuser
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 109
Loc: here
Re: Brave New World - geneticaly engineering humans [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #983503 - 10/22/02 05:17 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

> Do you seriously believe a person's intelligence is dicatated entirely by
> their genetics??

The nebulous concept which we refer to as "intelligence" does encompass many genetic traits.

> That's a nice general statement and all. But let's not forget the human race
> is comprised of INDIVIDUALS, wether some people act like cattle or not.

And these individuals are incapable of governing each other (AKA "governing themselves"). This is why democracy is a fascist lie, and why fascism is the only bridge to Utopia.

> The human race is mostly comprised of inviduals right now, but imprinted,
> brainwashed inviduals, who rely on religion or politics to govern their lifes.

Individuals who could really benefit from having some of the savant psychological abilities I was born with. I could benefit from being able to concentrate on one thing for more than 15 seconds too.

> This of course, leads to the question, What is your definition of "the
> collective good". Surely the collective could never agree on that.

Which is why I mentioned fascism. "The collective good" is whatever it is. Inject the Illuminati with ketamine before their next meeting and they should work it out pretty well.

> I would say the collective good is what doesn't get in the way of nature, and
> technology, but learns how to use it to their benefit.

The collective good is to make everything cool. No work, everyone's life devoted to relaxation. The only way to reach this is super-advanced technology which our feeble minds cannot comprehend. Our stupid brains can hack our DNA and make better brains which can make this cool stuff though. This is all speculation.

> What happens after you WIN a video game?? That's it. Game over. No more game
> to play. I would prefer to play the game as nature has laid it out rather
> than race to some technological eutopia where people are actually deluded
> enough to believe that all of humanities problems could be erased by
> manipulating the human genome.

Got a better solution?

> Who defines nature! We do, and I say nature is whatever is possible!!! Nature
> made us, which has a brain that uses electricity to work! Nature is what is
> around us, just take a look, science is natural because it fits in the
> boundaries of what is possible.

Groups of primates suck at science. Give me 100 bodies and a hivemind and I'll show you some science. Intellect is so pure and powerful, but when it gets caught up into language and interpersonal interaction it gets destroyed. Give me the resources to do everything myself (100 bodies/brains etc) and I'll stop by in a flying saucer in a thousand years while you're still in the stone age.

> For one thing, because it is less intrusive into peoples lives them FORCING
> people to comply with a fascistly-implemented human engineering plan.
> Aside from that, your question sounds like something Data from Star Trek
> would ask. I could give you a typical Captain Piccard type response:
> Something along the lines of "Well, Data, you wouldn't understand this
> because you're just a fucking robot, but human suffering and hardship are
> actually very powerful catalysts for human change, development, and
> progress." By the way, i dont watch Star Trek so if this doesn't sound right,
> well whatever.

The Borg certainly seem to be doing better than the Federation. Look at the contortions the writers have to go through to make sure the humans win.

> Basically, what you are saying is that anyone alive at this very moment who
> is afflicted with a disease or deformity or malfunction is somehow less human
> or less valid than a non-afflicted, "perfectly healthy" person. Maybe you
> need a good disease or two to enhance your appreciation for this life that
> you are fortunate enough to live right now.

I'm saying that these people with deformities would probably be happier without deformities, and that we should try to cure these dieases and make these people happier if they want.

> Look at Stephen Hawkins. Sure, he is severely disabled and cant even talk
> without the aid of his wheelchair, but he has pushed very far into his field
> and forced the scientific community to evaluate alot of theory. Sure, some of
> his stuff has been disproven, but so what. The point is, because of
> his "disability", Hawkins focused his energy on something other than going
> about his daily routine. Weelchair bound, he did alot for science. Now he is > just one simple example.

So if you could fix Stephen Hawking's body, wouldn't you?

> Now if everyone was "perfect" and without any biological malfunction as you
> suggest, don't you think the majority of the population would become
> complacent? Thus becoming even bigger wastes. Do you think, after awhile,
> that anyone would really appreciate their "superior" status amongst a
> populous of fellow "superiors"? No, they'd take it for granted just like
> everyone eventually takes everything for granted. Nothing would be different,
> mankind would still have just as many problems, just different ones.

You're underestimating just how cool making everyone a super-genius would be. Mankind wouldn't have as many problems. If we all have portable replicators which can make a 10-ton fish stick for about as much as it costs to type this paragraph, won't we all have more free time to ponder the nature of the Universe?

> I beleive that future evolution, that contains these supiror humans, will be
> well past their invidual selfish desires that create problems like violence.

Yeah.

> Furthermore, do you really think mankind's science is perfect enough to fool
> nature? On the most basic level, I foresee immense complications as the
> result of toying with a science that is not perfect and never will be.
> Besides that, there is a reason things become diseased, and on a macro-level,
> it is simply population control. Cancer and hemophilia and hepatitis and all
> the nasty diseases which afflict mankind and all other species of life is
> natures way of saying, "Alright, you done fucked up now, time for a purge."
> And do you a think a person who had their cancer gene removed but smoked 5
> packs a day, ate nothing but red meat, and lived next to a nuclear waster
> site would still not develop cancer. Whatever dude. And if they didn't, it
> would be something equally nasty or worse like emphesema or liver failure or
> something.

We can clone them new bodies then. Futurism is very cool especially when you're high on mushrooms and DXM like I am right now. Are we animals or are we Gods? If we're animals then complete anarchy and chaos is the solution, right? If we're Gods, then shouldn't we remake ourselves to best coexist with All?


Are you replying to a post I can't see or just talking to yourself? The latter is really cool. I am too high to respond to anything else.


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Invisiblexganon
polydrug abuser
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 109
Loc: here
Re: Brave New World - geneticaly engineering human [Re: Traveller]
    #993133 - 10/25/02 07:05 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

> are you kidding? do you really think we want THEM to be as smart as US?

In this scenario, we're members of the Illuminati, a hypothetical conspiracy which has complete control over all the world's governments.

We all want to be around intelligent people, because we're here instead of AOL. Making everyone intelligent means more smart people to talk to.

> i wonder if there's an honesty gene? or a greed gene...

I suspect I posess emotional-disorder genes, from my mother's side. I've learned to cope with them, however. Depression can go a couple different ways. If one's ego is strong enough, it turns into violent rage. I'm getting lost here.


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Invisiblexganon
polydrug abuser
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 109
Loc: here
Re: Brave New World - geneticaly engineering human [Re: Metasyn]
    #993141 - 10/25/02 07:11 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

> The game ends when you reach the pinnacle of technology because the designers couldn't
> imagine what comes next.

What if the 'game' is to acquire and learn how to operate a C++ compiler which allows us to write our own games?

> True, genetic engineering (or technology in general) will never be a cure-all solution, but
> it will allow us to concentrate on things we deem more important, just as ancient humans gave
> up spending all day looking for food in favor of developing art, culture, science, and philsophy.

Technology is the process of hacking reality. The more hooks we get in, the faster it goes. Nature has very cool technology. Seeing a tree as a tree is a trap. See a tree as a piece of machinery more complex than anything humanity has yet devised.


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OfflineThe President
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Registered: 10/25/02
Posts: 4
Loc: 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: Brave New World - geneticaly engineering human [Re: xganon]
    #993249 - 10/25/02 08:12 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Genetic engineering will become a part of our reality soon. I don't think it is possible to "undiscover" things so we must instead learn to deal with them. It would be foolish to say, "let's just leave things as they are and let nature take its course". How to we know that this is not the direction nature "intended" us to go. Now is the time to deal with these technologies, before they become available. There will always be problems that we have to deal with whether we are genically engineered super humans or not . One of our greatest atributes is our ability to solve problems. Genetic engineering is one thing that may allow us to tackle more difficult problems by elevating us to the next level.

One of the reasons for altering conciousness through the use of mushrooms is to gain a new perspective on things. Altering our genetics will also allow us to gain a new perspective by inceasing our mental capacity to understand and grow.


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OfflineHerbus
...

Registered: 10/19/04
Posts: 1,477
Loc: Reading the map...
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Brave New World - geneticaly engineering humans [Re: xganon]
    #5018539 - 12/05/05 05:49 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xganon said:
As soon as the technology is ready, genetic engineering must be made mandatory by fascist means for the good of not only the human race in it's entirety, but also each of it's individual members. Stupidity is a genetic disease, like hemophilia. The bulk of this species has proven incapable of making it's own decisions. They appear to be breeding more than those who are capable. Allowing inferior DNA to prevent people from reaching their fullest potential as human organisms must cease. If the government really was aimed towards the collective good of all, it would be spending the bulk of it's income on technology? Ever play Civilization (or any game of that nature)? Doesn't the culture who climbs the tech-tree the fastest win (along with all of it's members, which becomes all humanity)? Why should we allow anyone to be born into a inferior body?




Man what the fuck? Are you coked out or what? ...'Stupidity is a genetic disease.' Dude, fuck you. I was born 'stupid,' and I feel presented with the right circumstances, I was able to pull through. Stupidity as a consequence of heredity? I'm just not so convinced. I've seen brilliant individuals emerge from a house of idiots. There's a reason certain DNA which you might find undesirable exists. Consider if the DNA you've been bestowed with was not fit for a certain situation, well the stupid guy with 'inferior DNA' might just fit the niche a little better. And thus humans live.

Your remarks are reminiscent of my disposition when on amphetamines.
I hate amphetamines. Sorry, just the words of one with 'inferior DNA.'


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OfflineLifeIsSweet
Stranger
Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 71
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Brave New World - geneticaly engineering humans [Re: Herbus]
    #5043000 - 12/10/05 07:33 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

And who is going to hold BBC accountable for that remark when it does not come to be in 20 years?


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Invisiblepsyka
Praetorian
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
Re: Brave New World - geneticaly engineering human [Re: The President]
    #5043190 - 12/10/05 10:13 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Genetic engineering is already a part of our reality. Its a fairly simple process, we're now really starting to understand all the structures involved in genetic coding. Its pretty developed. Technology is advancing so rapidly its hard to keep up :frown:


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Offlinekotik
fuckingsuperhero
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Registered: 06/29/04
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Re: Brave New World - geneticaly engineering humans [Re: psyka]
    #5043864 - 12/10/05 01:58 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

>> Stupidity is a genetic disease
> I would much rather be stupid than cruel.

How is improving everybody's intelligence cruel? Not improving the collective intelligence of the human race when the means are available (and even banning others from doing so) would be cruel.




eugenics carries about as much water as racism. in fact, eugenics is really a precursor, or a politically correct form of racism. What about, say Einstein. Were his parents collectively smarter or as smart as him? What about other blood relatives? IQ is a fallacy by nature, because there are plenty of skills and creative ideas that cannot be tested. What was once accepted as great intelligence has been proven false, so then whoever was considered stupid at that time for not being able to "grasp" a theory, would in turn be smarter than those who so freely accepted it. Although this is a stretch, it would be reasonable to extrapolate this to any form of intelligence, whether it be artist, mathematical, physical or any other obervable action.

Quote:

If we could cure AIDS and instead we threw anyone who researched the cure in jail for 'ethical problems', wouldn't we be cruel? If we weren't all stupid, we would have cured AIDS by now.
Doesn't the culture who climbs the tech-tree the fastest win




so many horrible claims in such a small amount of space. If we could cure AIDS, don't you think a new dilemma would arise over how many people could afford the cure? And then who would be able to balance the supply so that everyone had an equal chance? And then what about the side effects? (aren't there always side effects?). AIDS is one problem among many, it just happens to have been ignored for so long that it has been getting out of control. Stupidity has nothing to do with it, it is quite arrogant to label the entire world of science and scientists as being stupid, because they have not figured out this one problem.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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