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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #19580870 -

And here I was defending you.



Now, I am starting to suspect otherwise...


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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19580882 -

Defend whom?

:rofl2:

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: teknix]
    #19580889 -

After 5 years here I think you can determine to whom I was replying, but I might be giving too much credit...


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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19580890 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
And here I was defending you.



Now, I am starting to suspect otherwise...


i've never met your wife! i'm innocent, i swear. it wasn't me, you've got the wrong guy.

p.s. I think what you're getting at is right though with only small objections. The Bible can be referenced as evidence of Jesus's deeds and works. That's not really the issue. The issue is, despite that, it's really shoddy evidence. If that's the best evidence of those deeds we've got it's pretty "meh" and not going to convince this jury of 1. and it's wise to be skeptical of such an insignificant presentation of evidence.

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19580916 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
After 5 years here I think you can determine to whom I was replying, but I might be giving too much credit...


Buddhist humor.

Can you really ever defend yourself? Yourself being an oxymoron.

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19581065 -

If you tried to magically conjure an apple, and it happened, would you be inclined to believe that you made it happen? What if you couldn't do it again? Would you question your sanity?

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: teknix]
    #19583916 -

My long reply post from yesterday is gone.. god job internet. Lets give it one more shot here...
:seriousbusiness:


Quote:
Are you being deliberately obtuse? I can say that there is zero evidence that Jesus turned water into wine. See if you can twist that one more time.

Nothing quite like intellectual dishonesty.



No im not being deliberately obtuse. Its your belief system that register me that way, because its you preference.
So for this example.. you can say that there is zero evidence, that he didnt. But can you tell if there is zero evidence that he did?
Just your preference, nothing else.

Quote:
Here is what we know:

1. Fiction has been around since man first started telling/writing tales.

2. Exaggeration happens. People love to embellish.

3. People sometimes outright lie.


On the  contrary.
1.Rationality has also been here from since beginning of human.
2.People can also be truthful and modest.
3.They can be beyond lies.

If just one case in our whole history of millions of reports said the truth, thats good enough.

Quote:
And literary 'evidence' that Hobbits once walked the earth. So what?

Words on paper have no direct relationship to truth.


Here I agree with you.
Its just the matter of what is on the paper, and if you like it or not.

I dont know what you want here with part 5 of this subject.. maybe its just pure boredom, and you like to run in circles.
Because, it seems to me like you are in favor of skepticism trying to put down this believer group. But this quest wont get you far...
You haven't provided a single evidence to support your point even by your own standards..
But if you like to dance to this endless mind box games, carry on by all means and see where it gets you..


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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. - Nietzsche

I've never faked a sarcasm in my life. True story.

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19583994 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
What would it take for you to change your belief?

Skeptic: Solid evidence.

Believer: Nothing could sway me.

Hmmm, which group is the more open-minded?



The group that doesn't pigeon hole every belief and every peice of "solid evidence" assuming everything to reside under the same umbrella I expect....:wink:

An open minded person (or group) would analyse each exclusive case in depth based upon what the topic actually entails on its own merits from both sides.

Edited by Duncan Rowhl (02/18/14 06:35 AM)

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19584082 -

A believer should be a skeptic. A skeptic should be very open to believing under the right evidence or circumstance. Very simple. If you're not on the fringe of one you're not considering very many possibilities.


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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19584712 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Science also mostly points that we are the body, the brain and death is the end. Isn't it hard to live believing in it?


More accurately, science says that there is no reliable evidence pointing to life-after-death or that consciousness extends beyond the body.

Hard or easy - reality is what it is, not what we want it to be.


So skeptics believe in 'logic', so it seems to me anyway.
But I totally agree that reality is what it is. I would even say that reality is what is.

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19588506 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Kickle said:
Yes. Not proof but evidence.


No it is not. It is evidence that someone typed a sentence. It does not point towards your guilt or innocence in the slightest.


Nah, just use Occam's Razor and then you can arrest kickle :lol:

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #19590171 -

I didnt read this thread but I just wanted to point out that in the case of spiritual people vs skeptics, the skeptics are actually the "believers". They view reality through a set of beliefs, just like everyone else, only they place extra importance on their beliefs and take great care to be as certain as they can that what they believe is "true".

A spiritually mature individual has long since tired of that game. He instead seeks to be rather than to believe. Concepts and beliefs belong to the realm of the mind, thinking, where this is constant activity and revision, the ego is always on the move shuffling from one idea or concept to the next.

The spiritual person is no longer able to take his mind seriously. He realizes that it tends only to disturb him and it really matters very little whether or not his beliefs are "true" because in a sense no beliefs are true. Of course certain beliefs are more useful than others, certain ideas are wrong, but I mean beliefs, concepts, this "mind things" are just symbols that our brains employ to represent things so we can analyze and interpret them.

Now assuming that one's goal is peace and happiness, it is quite clear that having a "true" set of beliefs is no guarantee of happiness. Of course weeding out false beliefs can be helpful spirituality, but even then it is usually the more intangible beliefs (beliefs and assumptions about one's identity) that must be identified as untrue and removed rather than say, removing the false belief that the black speckled frog only mates in March (I just made that up).

Having true beliefs about phenomena often has little or nothing to do with happiness. Knowing when the black speckled frog mates may be interesting, but that is obviously not the way to happiness. accumulating knowledge does not necessarily help one accumulate happiness. One can never encounter reality through beliefs.

The spiritual man has discovered that the content of the mind really doesn't matter. He instead, shifts his attention from his mind, onto God, the ever present presence, the eternal light which serves as the backdrop for all experiences. Sensory experiences, feeling and emotions, and thoughts and beliefs are in constant flux, there is no permanence to them and thus no happiness to be found in clinging to them. But by fixing his mind in its source, man finds a sort of rock or solid ground from which to operate from, rather than attempting to build upon the ever shifting sands of the mind. In this way, the spiritual man has little need for beliefs. They may arise in the mind for him but he gives them no special significance.

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: Deviate]
    #19590742 -

:blah:


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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19590901 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
:blah:


"Hmmm, which group is the more open-minded?"

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #19590925 -

The skeptic group - of course!

Are you truly wondering why I failed to reply to Deviate's post with at least 10 flat assertions with zero backing?


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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19590998 -

I wouldn't even contemplate wondering about you, let alone commenting past this point until I have clear evidence of your official birth certificate and cross confirmation of your ID in the form of a bill or invoice with at least 4 referees residing in a present or past position of authority, otherwise I'd advise you not to ask questions you don't want to hear opinions to...

The wonderment you impress upon others however, in your call for discussion is entirely subjective. :wink:

Edited by Duncan Rowhl (02/19/14 05:51 PM)

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #19591028 -

I could fake the forms and the signatures, you know. :razz:


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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19591041 -

You faked being someone who wanted to initiate discussion for the stretch of 4 whole pages so I have every faith in you. :wink:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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