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OfflineBuddha1
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Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness
    #2678579 - 05/14/04 04:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

My father is buddhist and told me once that the Dalai Lama was hearing a lot about drugs and was curious. He gave LSD to one of his senior monks and the monk explaind the trip: The drug brings you to a higher level of conciousness without any effort. The monk also noted that normally he could go to much higher levels of consciousness, yet on LSD he could not go higher, he was stuck at that level.

For those of us that have done LSD, this seems believable and maybe logical. Yet it is still just a story I heard from my dad. I was wondering if anyone else had any information, links, or resources regarding monks using drugs.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Buddha1]
    #2678628 - 05/14/04 04:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I do not have any information on this particular instance, but many Buddhists have pointed out the similarities between an LSD or mushroom trip and the Satori(temporary) enlightenment that can sometimes be achieved through meditation.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblebert
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Buddha1]
    #2678672 - 05/14/04 05:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Most of us aren't willing to give our normal lives up to become monks and go to meditate in the temple for the rest of our lives. Although, if my parents weren't still alive I would consider it. But for most the lifestyle change is too drastic. Psychedelics allow the average person a glimpse at what is possible while allowing us to maintain constant contact with the rest of society.

I think there are many of us here who practice meditation in some form, others fast or pray or do tribal drumming or whatever.. We are alive now, so I think striving for ultimate transcendence while on earth is neither possible nor practical. The psychedelic experience is so varied and deep enough that I don't think I will ever get that far through it during this lifetime.

Edit: I think it is interesting that there is a much higher ratio of people on the shroomery interested in buddhism than in the rest of society.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: bert]
    #2678712 - 05/14/04 05:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

buddhism is 'the way', psychadelics flow with, 'the way'.. it makes sense.


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OfflinePhishgrrl
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Buddha1]
    #2678922 - 05/14/04 05:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I just want to recommend this awesome book on the topic. The link is to the book at amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/det...nce&s=books
I can't afford it right now but read a bunch of it at City Lights in SF. I lOVE that bookstore! This book is really good and has a bunch of different essays on the subject from different Buddhist practitioners, monks, nuns, scholars and the like. They have different opinions on the subject.

I tend to share Terence McKenna's view though...

http://www.citylights.com/CLorder.html

Here is city lights ordering page, it is better to order from them but they don't have the info for the book on their website...


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Once in awhile you can get shown the light

In the strangest of places if you look at it right...



Edited by Phishgrrl (05/14/04 06:04 PM)


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Buddha1]
    #2678940 - 05/14/04 06:04 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well, of course, it's hearsay, so I'll have to be skeptical towards the souce. I'm open to the idea though. Interesting conclusion.

I suppose it's true that while psychedelics allow you to reach a higher level of consciousness without effort, they also limit you from reaching any higher levels. I suppose that limitation would be the result of - among other things - the visuals and the magnification of emotions.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Offlinespacegates
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Buddha1]
    #2679294 - 05/14/04 07:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)



This was the beginning of Alpert's devotion to Maharaj-ji and the point of departure for his transformation into Ram Dass. It provoked a catharsis in which Alpert's rational, thinking mind (his primary defensive tool) was temporarily paralyzed, flooding him with the kinds of buried feelings that signal a return of going on being. But it was not the end of Maharaj-ji's teachings. Still preoccupied with his experiences with LSD, Ram Dass resolved one evening to speak to his guru about this drug. The next morning Maharaj-ji called for him and immediately demanded the "medicine." At first unsure of what Maharaj-ji might mean (he was unused to thinking of the drug as medicine, even though he was carrying it in pill form), Ram Dass soon realized what was being asked of him and he ran to his car to fetch the drug. Maharaj-ji held out his hand, demanded 3 of the pills, popped them in his mouth, and continued on with his day. Nothing seemed to happen to him.

Ram Dass was amazed. Nothing had happened. For Ram Dass at the time, this was the ultimate demonstration of some kind of spiritual attainment. He knew firsthand how powerful the drug could be, and yet here was someone who was totally untouched by it, someone more powerful than LSD. Ram Dass's attachment to the drug was loosened. He came back to America and began to tell his story, but still, somewhere in the back of his mind, he harbored doubts about what he had seen. "Perhaps he hadn't really swallowed them," he thought to himself. "Maybe he just threw them over his shoulder." On his next trip to India, Maharaj-ji called to him again, asking, as if he couldn't quite remember, "Say did you give me any medicine last time you were in India? Did I take it?"

Ram Dass answered some what equivocal, "Well I think so."
"Oh did it have any effect on me?"
"No, I don't think so."
"Oh go away," Maharaj-ji said. The next morning he called to him again, "You got any more of that medicine?" he asked.
"Bring it."

Ram Dass gave him the equivalent of five pills this time. Very slowly, Maharaj-ji took each pill and placed it into his mouth, making sure that he could be seen swallowing each one. Then he began to act agitated. He called for water, questioning Ram Dass about how long the drug would take to act, called for a wristwatch, and then, asked, "Will it make me crazy?"

"Probably," said Ram Dass, and Maharaj-ji at that point went down underneath his blanket and came up making all kinds of strange faces. But the joke was on Ram Dass. Maharaj-ji was just playing with him. At the end of the hour he asked him, "You got anything stronger?" Again, nothing out of the ordinary happened. Ram Dass stayed with Maharaj-ji all day and nothing happened. At one point Maharaj-ji told him that drugs like this were known in India long ago but that knowledge about them was now lost. "It's useful, it's useful, not the true Samadhi, but it's useful," he said, using a Sanskrit work for the meditative attainment to hake his point. Later he told the young westerners who were starting to gather around him in India, "If you're in a cool place and you're quiet and you're feeling much peace and your mind is turned toward God, it's useful." You have a visit with a holy man in that place, he said. But, he added, you can't stay there, it doesn't last. That's why it?s better to become the saint rather than just visit him. Ram Dass was amazed at this display of psychic power. He knew from firsthand experience how the ego could be decimated by LSD. But here was a man who was unfazed by it. Maharaj-ji's ego was so flexible, so transparent, that the drug did not seem to touch him.

Taken from: "Going on Being: Buddhism and the way of change" By Mark Epstein, M.D.


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Invisiblebert
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: spacegates]
    #2679434 - 05/14/04 08:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Hmm, if that is a true story then it is very fascinating. I'm guessing the 'ancient lost drug' of india is psychedelic mushrooms. The correlation between sacred cows (in hinduism) and magic mushrooms growing on cow dung is too strong to ignore, if you ask me.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Buddha1]
    #2679638 - 05/14/04 09:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Spacegates recounted one of my favorite stories about Neem Karolie Baba, via Ram Dass. I also can add a story. My Doctoral dissertation was based on the work of Lama Anagarika Govinda's 'Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism.' I was in written communication with Lama Govinda (he has a preface in Leary-Alpert-Metner's 'The Psychedelic Experience'). Even though the training in visualization for a Lama-in-training (Govinda was a Kagyu or Kargyutpa - Red Hat Sect) sometimes required 10 hours of sitting meditation a day, he reported that he didn't really understand until he took LSD. Then, those inner magnificent kaleidoscopic mandalas and cathedrals of light showed him the realities that he had been studying, visualizing, realizing all of his years in training. Of course, those inner fireworks were accompanied by degrees of ecstasy and bliss that the good Lama could categorize and know. He did not proseletize the use of psychedelics, but neither did he voice a subtle aversion (as the Dalai Lama's suggestion that it is another attachment or place to get stuck). Wherever one is spiritually, psychedelics can illuminate and show the next horizon to pursue. Neem Karolie Baba had other things to say about the "medicine" that gives "siddhis." He said that if one is in a cool place, and one's mind is turned to GOD, then it lets one have the darshan [teaching] of Christ. He was very specific to Ram Dass about it being Christ. He also said that it would be better to become Christ, than to simple have His visit. That then is the task of one's lifetime.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinejono
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Buddha1]
    #2681180 - 05/15/04 04:32 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Being interested in eastern philosophy and Buddhism, Ive had a fair bit of contact with the Theravadan Buddhist community in the areas near where I live in Australia.

I asked one of the Theravadan Monks (who used to be a rock musician, but is now abbott of a forest monestary about 2 1/2 hours out of Sydney), about the correlation between psychedelic experience and buddhist teachings. He told me that the majority of the western sangha (western community of monks) that he had contact with, had become interested in buddhism, and became monks, due to their experiences with LSD. He also told me that it can give you some insight, but that it can also cause you to be confused, and that having experienced both himself, that the path of buddhism was preferrable. (but as was pointed out earlier, to fully pursue that path involves a dramatic lifestyle change that most are unwillinging to undertake)

Jono.


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Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton


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Offlineshroominsmurf
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: silversoul7]
    #2681244 - 05/15/04 05:03 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Got Sources?
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I do not have any information on this particular instance, but many Buddhists have pointed out the similarities between an LSD or mushroom trip and the Satori(temporary) enlightenment that can sometimes be achieved through meditation.




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OfflineTinTree
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: shroominsmurf]
    #2681257 - 05/15/04 05:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I am a Buddhist.  Allow me to point out the similarities between an LSD or mushroom trip and samadhi, the tranquil, one-pointed state of concentration and awareness achieved through meditation.

There's one source. :wink:


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"I'm afraid of losing my obscurity. Genuineness only thrives in the dark. Like celery."
- Aldous Huxley


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Buddha1]
    #2681379 - 05/15/04 07:22 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

not simmilar
being able to meditate i.e. samatha vipassana implies an ability that you might be able to use when entheogenized to great benefit.
the entheogenized state is not equal to anything from meditation but resembles a sustained absorption.
LSD is really a treat to a meditator in a way that a poetry reading is a treat to student of language.
It brings up resonant mind states to observe, entheogen likes that reflective attention.
salvia is also a good assistant/challenge to a buddhist meditator.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Buddha1]
    #2681673 - 05/15/04 11:12 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

www.tricycle.com
fall 1996 issue is themed: buddhism & psychedelics
check it out...


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: TinTree]
    #2685629 - 05/16/04 06:05 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

---I am a Buddhist. Allow me to point out the similarities between an LSD or mushroom trip and samadhi, the tranquil, one-pointed state of concentration and awareness achieved through meditation.

oooooh. That almost means as much as the statement "I am a Christian"

Drugs and Buddhism dont mix, this should be apparent through the reading of any of the Buddhists texts. Sensory/mental hedonism is not permitted.

The initial post seems like a complete falcity, Id have to see that in print, written by the lama before I believe it.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Positronius]
    #2685930 - 05/16/04 11:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Positronius said:
{snip}

Drugs and Buddhism dont mix, this should be apparent through the reading of any of the Buddhists texts. Sensory/mental hedonism is not permitted.





all too true, one should not attempt to bring down anyone's house while trying to further our own understanding.

I do find, however, that when the ride is getting rough, the background in meditation practice helps a lot {this would apply to all life experiences including entheogen} also when nature reveals herself strong parallel insights with buddhism and taoism and other isms is encouraging.

if you study abhidhamma and examine the self as a sequence of citta type mind moments, you will have quite a head start at accepting the kind of phenomena exposed by entheogens. After avoiding much of the shock, it is easier to take the opportunity to feed on experiencing where some pleasure is afforded.

note: in buddhism, feelings of pleasure and craving are connected - the unawakened mind can be compelled *to attraction* by pleasure seeking.
in buddhism, hatred and feelings of pain are connected - the unawakened mind can be compelled *to avoidance* by recoiling.

both unawakened responses are *to be known* and transcended, but the pleasure need not be converted to pain (a false minded short cut), that is unnecessary and not enlightened either.

anyway - I don't think that buddhism is under attack in this line of thinking. Buddhism does explicitly state that Right Livelihood does not include the manufacture and distribution of intoxicants. Still, I have had several wonderful moments with bikkhus under the influence at the end of some hard work - good memories indeed.

I suppose making these things must be kept a hobby to keep on the right side of livelihood.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3766194 - 02/11/05 12:41 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I want to add my own personal experiance.

I started looking into buddhism at age 13. I was fascinated and quickly adopted many buddhist beliefs (some of which I had already figured out on my own) and interpreted my life through them.

When I started tripping on mushrooms I was looking for an "ANSWER" to be presented clear as day. It did not happen. I became confused and twisted. As I continued tripping I eventually understood that the answer really has been in front of me the whole time. It was presented to me clear as day before I ever took mushrooms. But it took shrooms to make me see that. I was so stuck in my reality of ideas that it had to be shattered and morphed for me to see past them.

I continued eating mushrooms, eventually to abuse them, eating them every weekend. Through my indulgence I learned not to indulge. The shrooms kicked my ass! I haven't eaten shrooms for a few months now (which is QUITE a long time for me!) but still hold them sacred and plan only a few trips or less per year for spiritual exploration.

The secret to enlightenment is tuning into the signals that are always present, but are normally beyond our perception. We are like a radio, and our brain/mind is the tuning dial. Psychedelics are an antennae, allowing us to tune into signals that we never could before, as is meditaion and prayer. But for some this is not good enough. It may be that our true spiritual goal is to transform into a satalite dish capable of recieving even smaller and more distant signals and even to project those signals ourselves. And when we die, we will no longer be a machine sending and recieving signals, but we will become the signals themselves. We will become God!

I still smoke pot and drink, but don't let those urges control me. Now I don't care that much if I can get high or not, I will not go on perilous journeys for a bag anymore. But I still like to get high! LOL! Eventually I will give it all up. I just know I will. But I am young and in college, so... what else? This is fine for now. I first must understand what signals I can tune into now. When I am done I will move onto the next frequencies. I must realize that everything is always perfect. It must be this way so that it can lead to the next way that things will be. Although I hurt myself by abusing drugs I learn. I see how attachment to sensations and thoughts prevents me from maturing spiritually. The mushrooms can show you the way, but they are not the way itself. Your life is the way. You can walk it however you like, but to get to where you want to go, you've got to walk it right and enjoy every step and mistake.

Be ready to compromise everything you beleive in. How else will you perfect the paradigm of truth!?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: spacegates]
    #3766216 - 02/11/05 12:49 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Give me up to 7 hits of LSD and I guarantee that I can continue seeming normal for the rest of the day and claim it had no effect. It just takes attention to detail. The higher state of conciousness acheived through meditation is a different state than one reached with hallucinogens.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: dr0mni]
    #3766243 - 02/11/05 12:56 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

You mean:
enlightenment is a way of adjusting your tuner?
one must perfect truthful paradigm?
one must eventually give up their beloved mushrooms?


apart form those cloudy concepts, you are right, I think, in that life itself is the path.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3766259 - 02/11/05 12:59 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

True enlightenment does not exist.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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