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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19064859 -

Post deleted by EddYerb

Reason for deletion: Want to remove

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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19064939 -

EddYerb said:
I don't know mate that's why I'm asking you......

What are your views on this, are you advocating adoption of capitalist libertarianism in your country? If so then would the continuation of current foreign policy be continued as it is?


:facepalm:

Libertarianism has nothing to do with foreign policy.  Libertarian capitalism is 100% internal.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19064973 -

If libertatianism is a way of running and governing a country then it has everything to do with foreign policy. You want less regulation and less government control? Foreign policy is a necessary part of government requiring a large amount of government and regulation.
In a globalised economy you can't cut yourself off from the rest of the world without some serious implications to your country.

Maybe you should clarify what libertarianism is and the extent to which it would be administered.

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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19065055 -

EddYerb said:
If libertatianism is a way of running and governing a country then it has everything to do with foreign policy. You want less regulation and less government control? Foreign policy is a necessary part of government requiring a large amount of government and regulation.
In a globalised economy you can't cut yourself off from the rest of the world without some serious implications to your country.

Maybe you should clarify what libertarianism is and the extent to which it would be administered.


I don't see libertarianism as a cutting off from the rest of the world.  I expect the rest of the world to act in what it perceives to be its best interest and we should interact with them in whatever manner we deem to be in our best interests whatever form that may take.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19066736 -

Libertarianism is NOT associated with Isolationist policies.  It is associated with NON-Interventionist policies, i.e., staying the fuck out of other countries fights UNLESS they are directly threatening the US. 

Treaties and trade agreements will still be struck, but the country will protect itself from UNFAIR trade practices, i.e. dumping subsidized product on the US market at below cost to destroy the US industry and take control. 

This does not mean that tarriffs are placed on products just to protect certain workers--this drives the prices up of the particular product/commodity that is protected and invites retaliation from other countries.  US tried a protectionist/Isolationist type policy with the Smoot-Hawley tarriff act of 1930, which many economists consider one of the factors that deepened the US recession depression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley_Tariff_Act


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19071586 -

EddYerb said:
If libertatianism is a way of running and governing a country then it has everything to do with foreign policy. You want less regulation and less government control? Foreign policy is a necessary part of government requiring a large amount of government and regulation.
In a globalised economy you can't cut yourself off from the rest of the world without some serious implications to your country.

Maybe you should clarify what libertarianism is and the extent to which it would be administered.


Libertarians believe in free trade. That is the opposite of isolationist, at least concerning economic policy.

Personally, I am even more libertarian than Libertarians. I would love to see the state disappear altogether. It is immoral and impractical.


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"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.

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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19071653 -

MaxwellSmart said:
EddYerb said:
If libertatianism is a way of running and governing a country then it has everything to do with foreign policy. You want less regulation and less government control? Foreign policy is a necessary part of government requiring a large amount of government and regulation.
In a globalised economy you can't cut yourself off from the rest of the world without some serious implications to your country.

Maybe you should clarify what libertarianism is and the extent to which it would be administered.


Libertarians believe in free trade. That is the opposite of isolationist, at least concerning economic policy.

Personally, I am even more libertarian than Libertarians. I would love to see the state disappear altogether. It is immoral and impractical.


That is anarchist.  If you think the state is impractical wait until you become a slave of somebody like me if there's no government at all.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19071782 -

You could say I'm an anarchist. The term "libertarian" encompasses many different schools of thought. I do not belong to the Libertarian party, though I have respect for them and even voted Libertarian in the past. But if you are libertarian, why would you enslave me? Isn't that what we oppose?


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"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.

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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: MaxwellSmart] * 2
    #19071808 -

You said you would love to see the state disappear altogether.  That is kinda the definition of anarchist. 

Why would I enslave you in a stateless world?  I would have to just out of self preservation.  No state, no law, red in tooth and claw.  Somebody is going to do it and I would much prefer that it be me.  You'd probably be happier as my slave than as a slave of some of the other nastier freakshows.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19071863 -

That's an odd line of thinking. Why is somebody going to enslave me? Why wouldn't I defend myself? And still, why would you want to enslave a person. I guess we have different reasons for being libertarian.

My own view is not based primarily on practicality, but morality. Slavery is always wrong.

The reason I don't always claim anarchism is that some people, particularly Europeans, have told me that I do not fit their definition of an anarchist.


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"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.

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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19071901 -

MaxwellSmart said:
That's an odd line of thinking. Why is somebody going to enslave me? Why wouldn't I defend myself? And still, why would you want to enslave a person. I guess we have different reasons for being libertarian.


You aren't a libertarian.  You are an anarchist.  Do you think that you are organized and capable epough to resist an organized force?  And I can assure you that there will be many in an anarchy.
Quote:
My own view is not based primarily on practicality, but morality. Slavery is always wrong.


Yes, but it is only through a state that it is stopped.
Quote:
The reason I don't always claim anarchism is that some people, particularly Europeans, have told me that I do not fit their definition of an anarchist.


Why would you credit those morons?  If it wasn't for America they'd be Soviet slaves.  They have the luxury of smoking cigarettes in cafes while rough men from another country protect their right to be fatuous morons.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19072067 -

zappaisgod said:
You aren't a libertarian.  You are an anarchist.  Do you think that you are organized and capable epough to resist an organized force?  And I can assure you that there will be many in an anarchy.


I am not a Libertarian, but I am a libertarian. In Europe, "libertarians" are more like our "liberals", a term that used to mean in the U.S. what "libertarian" means to us today. So many people get hung up on labels. You can call me anarchist if you want.

I am against coercive monopolies but I am not against voluntary associations. I would like to live in a community of like minded libertarians who would not rob me and would help me if I needed it, as I would help them. I would also probably pay a protection or insurance firm to recover any losses. Anyone who commits an act of aggression would be dealt with by an arbitrating agency. That is, of course, if they did not die in the process of committing their crimes.

Quote:
Yes, but it is only through a state that it is stopped.


No. It is through the state that it is implemented.


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"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.

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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19072364 -

MaxwellSmart said:
Quote:
Yes, but it is only through a state that it is stopped.


No. It is through the state that it is implemented.



points for stefan moleneux! i love that guy


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19073171 -

Just a quick post here. One thing is that without the individual there is no community. Another is that the Agora (or open marketplace) is what brings this communism and libertarian (little 'L') viewpoints into congruence without exploiting any of the participants.

EddYerb said:
Can anyone explain to me what exactly this capitalist libertarian system will look like in the US (since this seems to be what you are all talking about) and how it will fit in with the larger world system.



Have you heard of the Free State Project? Or anarcho-capitalism? Think of anytime you were to buy chicken eggs from a friend or exchange some service you provide for those eggs. When most people make these sorts of transactions, they aren't reporting this as income to their respective governmental tax revenue agencies [read-IRS]. There was a CONSENTING exchange between two parties where BOTH parties benefit.

EddYerb said:
Will there still be law enforcement?

How will laws be decided?

How will disputes be settled?



The people are the law enforcement. There would be private companies that you can pay to offer protection. Just like vehicle insurance. It is in the best interest for Protection Company A to provide timely and humane protection, else risk losing customers.

As for how will laws be decided, and disputes settled, this and pretty much all of the points above are laid out in The New Libertarian Manifesto which is REALLY just a way how Agorism could work. Granted, I think there are a few points in this document that I could do without or amend.


EddYerb said:
What will happen to publicly ran national parks etc.?



According to many liberty-minded schools of thought, the idea is to give the land back to the original owners. This is one of the aspects I've fought with. Do you give it back to the original settlers? Do you give it back to the tribes that were once inhabiting the area? One argument is that whoever has 'improved' (that is, worked/maintained) the land are the 'rightful' owners. I'm still grappling with that.


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You can't kill what's stronger than death!

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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19073236 -

zappaisgod said:
You aren't a libertarian.  You are an anarchist.  Do you think that you are organized and capable epough to resist an organized force?  And I can assure you that there will be many in an anarchy.


Quote:
MaxwellSmart said:My own view is not based primarily on practicality, but morality. Slavery is always wrong.


Yes, but it is only through a state that it is stopped.




I disagree. With the abolishment of the State, don't you think companies like Northrup Grumman, Lockheed Martin, LRAD, and all of the countless others, there will be ample resources (technology) available for defense? Not too mention our underground groups making our own tech?


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You can't kill what's stronger than death!

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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: apok]
    #19074204 -

apok said:
zappaisgod said:
You aren't a libertarian.  You are an anarchist.  Do you think that you are organized and capable epough to resist an organized force?  And I can assure you that there will be many in an anarchy.


Quote:
MaxwellSmart said:My own view is not based primarily on practicality, but morality. Slavery is always wrong.


Yes, but it is only through a state that it is stopped.




I disagree. With the abolishment of the State, don't you think companies like Northrup Grumman, Lockheed Martin, LRAD, and all of the countless others, there will be ample resources (technology) available for defense? Not too mention our underground groups making our own tech?


:rofl:

Available to who and to what end?


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19074628 -

The point is that without State contracts these companies will rely on private sector to purchase their technologies. Any band or group of people hired to protect will be buying their techs. And you also underestimate the electronic-counter warfare the underground community posses.

That's how I'm seeing it.


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You can't kill what's stronger than death!

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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: apok]
    #19074665 -

Here's how I see it.  Some charismatic and organized strong man will come along and recruit a few hard men to his side promising them slaves and whores and that is what most people will become.  The tech nerds will be utterly fucked.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19074681 -

HAHA! That's great  :biggrin:  My particular group of 'tech nerds' will never be utterly fucked. WE GOTZ DRONEZ BEOTCH!  :nyan:


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You can't kill what's stronger than death!

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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: apok]
    #19074689 -

Sure you do.


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