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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
#19043948 - 10/28/13 01:56 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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you have no consistency in your argument. First you denounce libertarianism as absurd, then rally for more intense regulation, THEN claim to be part of a libertarian movement that rejects government entirely.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Smokey420



Registered: 10/29/10
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
#19043964 - 10/28/13 02:00 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said: you have no consistency in your argument. First you denounce libertarianism as absurd, then rally for more intense regulation, THEN claim to be part of a libertarian movement that rejects government entirely.
False. I denounced capitalism as absurd. Also I never claimed regulations would be necessary in my ideal society, I was claiming it's importance with in a capitalist society.
-------------------- Workers of Shroomery Unite!
Warning: Everything I say is possibly a work of fiction. Fuck you NSA
Edited by Smokey420 (10/28/13 02:03 AM)
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
#19044098 - 10/28/13 02:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Smokey mate can you tell us more about libertarian syndicalism? I've never heard of it but what you're saying on this thread makes a lot of sense to me.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Gilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
#19044774 - 10/28/13 09:05 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Smokey420 said:
Quote:
psyconaught said: you have no consistency in your argument. First you denounce libertarianism as absurd, then rally for more intense regulation, THEN claim to be part of a libertarian movement that rejects government entirely.
False. I denounced capitalism as absurd. Also I never claimed regulations would be necessary in my ideal society, I was claiming it's importance with in a capitalist society.
The nature of capitalism is synonymous with freedom the more you limit a mans economic potential the more totalitarian your society will be.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
#19044810 - 10/28/13 09:18 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Smokey420 said: If everyone in the world could magically afford to go to college, and magically they all created their own business; who would work for them? A capitalist society demands that there is someone for those mundane jobs.
Not everyone in poverty can afford to go to school, and the majority of them wind up in debt the rest of their life. If they can't make enough money from their job, and they're denied welfare, they end up homeless . 44% of all homeless people are still employed, but they're forced to live under the highway, or in a tent. Hundreds of homeless die every winter in my city when the shelter cant fit anymore. Maybe its too radical an idea for you squares to believe, but I think having a job should be an escape from poverty. I believe that it doesn't matter where you put in your 40 hours. You deserve to be treated like a human being. You deserve medicine when you're sick, because there are stockpiles of it in a warehouse. Just because some ass hole wants to make a profit on your sickness; You deserve to to be healthy. I believe in the wealthiest country in the world, it's a crime to let any child go hungry.
Shelter- Human Right. Food and Water- Human Right. Health Care- Human Right.
You are mistaking 2 basic needs for rights. And health care is neither a right nor basic human need. It would be nice if everyone had it.
Who paid for the drugs in that warehouse? You know a drug I am getting ready to take cost 11 Billion dollars to develop. that's money up front by that company to pay for it, whether or not the ever make money on it. Their risk, their loss. And as far as I know, just about every drug available is available through special programs from the drug companies or foundations IF the drug is really needed.
But back to my previous question: OK, not everyone has an opportunity to go to college so we need income equality. OK, I didn't have money to go to harvard, and I couldn't get Equal Opportunity, so it isn't fair that the president makes more money than I. Why shouldn't I get the same thing he does? I think the answer is obvious.
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qman
Stranger

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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
#19044827 - 10/28/13 09:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Smokey420 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Where were you when he said he wanted to spread the wealth around? Your dishonesty is awesome. Do you work for Jay Carney?
What Obama says, and what he actually does in office are two completely different things. Just like the majority of every politician ever. Not that i doubt he ever said "spread around the wealth" but more then likely you herd it taken of of context on some conservative talk show propaganda machine. Honestly all you have to do is look what the Socialist party of America has to say about him. They hate him, like every other socialist or communist should. He's a strong state capitalist that voted to bail out corporate America, and is a strong supporter of the military industrial complex, and Wall-street. His administration is stocked with chairmen of Goldman Sachs and Fannie Mae. He's a huge capitalist, ask any socialist.
I agree, Obama might be a "socialist" in his true spirit, but he governs like a corporate capitalist.
True liberals really do despise Obama, how does the top 1/10 of !% increase their wealth by 20% and the bottom 99% lose a portion of their wealth during his tenure if he governs like a socialist? He's bought and paid for, his true ideology is meaningless at the end of the day.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: qman]
#19046617 - 10/28/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Smokey420 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Where were you when he said he wanted to spread the wealth around? Your dishonesty is awesome. Do you work for Jay Carney?
What Obama says, and what he actually does in office are two completely different things. Just like the majority of every politician ever. Not that i doubt he ever said "spread around the wealth" but more then likely you herd it taken of of context on some conservative talk show propaganda machine. Honestly all you have to do is look what the Socialist party of America has to say about him. They hate him, like every other socialist or communist should. He's a strong state capitalist that voted to bail out corporate America, and is a strong supporter of the military industrial complex, and Wall-street. His administration is stocked with chairmen of Goldman Sachs and Fannie Mae. He's a huge capitalist, ask any socialist.
I agree, Obama might be a "socialist" in his true spirit, but he governs like a corporate capitalist.
Somewhat but he is also heavily socialist. See ObamaCare. Quote:
True liberals really do despise Obama, how does the top 1/10 of !% increase their wealth by 20% and the bottom 99% lose a portion of their wealth during his tenure if he governs like a socialist? He's bought and paid for, his true ideology is meaningless at the end of the day.
I don't want to break your heart but the top 1/10th of 1% is always going to win. Whether they are capitalist Wall Streeters or communist apparatchiks.
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EddYerb
Stranger
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: zappaisgod]
#19047817 - 10/28/13 06:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by EddYerb
Reason for deletion: Want to remove
Edited by EddYerb (10/28/13 06:39 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb] 1
#19047949 - 10/28/13 06:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
EddYerb said: It's crazy for me to read about political discussions by Americans. There's no where near the passion for politics in England, it's cool to see.
This is my two cents.. It seems to me that you guys are basically arguing about individualism vs communism.
Individual liberty versus the interests of the Kollektif, yesQuote:
You're never going to agree unless you change your values you place on individual freedoms or social freedoms.
There is no such thing as social freedoms in opposition to individual freedoms. The Kollektif only eliminates freedom.Quote:
My personal view is communist. I believe that we are social animals and that community wealth and social mobility is more important than individual wealth, this community spreading to the entirety of humanity.
This has worked real well everywhere it has been implemented Quote:
I believe that our current system is not the best that will ever exist, given a long time frame, and that it's idiotic to think otherwise.
What do you mean by "we" Kemosabe? It is certainly better than what you want. Not for nothing but I won't work at all unless I can keep a certain level of the fruits of my labor. At some point you are going to have to march me to the fields at the point of a gun. Like in N. Korea, etc.Quote:
I believe a new system will arise once we either, realise that we have to have a circular economy in order to carry on producing goods, reach the technological ability to no longer have need for an underclass or survive an horrific and all encompassing World War. A complete social mindset revolution, without one of those external influences, will be an insanely long process, its effectively just a slow shift in attitudes, generation by generation. Until then I believe we will probably have to have our current system. Our current system, like smokey has said, will ultimately result in widening wealth gaps, large scale pollution and degradation of valuable resources. It may take some time but that is clearly the direction it is currently headed.
There is intrinsically nothing wrong with a wealth gap. You will not get one nickel more if Jamie Dimon makes 10 million less.Quote:
There effectively is nothing much to stop the richer getting richer - however - there is still government.
The government is a gun. They are thugs. They just take.Quote:
[Theoretically; neutral, made up of a large number of community and politically interested citizens and chosen by the population they represent to stop injustices such as large scale unemployment, or starving populations as a work of unemployment or environmental catastrophes caused by drilling or mining companies.
Interference with capitalism is causing an inflation of unemployment numbers and deflation of workforce participation. There is no starvation in America and drilling and mining is the source of all human prosperity. I do not wish to live like the Cree hunting buffalo.Quote:
With the proposed libertarian capitalist system, this final barrier of resistance to injustices, incurred through profit making, is removed. Companies would be free to run amok. And where, in a capitalist system, money is effectively quantified power, corporations could gain huge influence over every aspect of our lives with little to no resistance.
In the capitalist system, if there is an injustice, you have access to the courts to sue for redress if you are wronged. If you just suck you get nothing. The simple fact that I make a shit ton more money than you does not constitute an injusticeQuote:
It also seems that you are arguing about it taking place just in America. I'm not entirely familiar with the semantics of libertarian capitalism, but a military would be a necessity under the current world system. If America didn't have a big enough military it would almost certainly be attacked or invaded at some point.
There is no almost. The US military protects a lot more than just the US.Quote:
One final point is that I'm not 100% sure you know this basic fact of modern life:
Currently we can only live the way we do in the developed world as a result of exploitation. We must necessarily pay a large portion of world citizens tenfold less than is the value for their labour.
By arguing for libertarian capitalism you are also arguing for an underclass.
Not at all. Capitalism does not require an underclass at all. People who suck, suck. Under capitalism those who suck receive the rewards commensurate to their contributions.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 26 days
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
#19048509 - 10/28/13 08:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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The argument that there will be no regulation and that the companies will destroy everything is false. If you notice, the housing bubble, Enron, The BP Oil Spill, Bernie Maddoff, indeed, almost every crisis we have had in the last 40 years is the result of 1) Government meddling and over-regulation and 2) Government regulators NOT doing their job.
Like in the BP Oil spill the government regulators where jerking off to porn videos on the internet and pencil whipping the inspections.
The governments answer to everything is more government, more spending, and more regulations. It ain't makin' it.
No one is saying the needy shouldn't get assistance. But when you have a huge percentage of the populace sucking on the Teat--no end in site--and the middle-upper middle class paying for it all, there is a problem.
the government people don't give a fuck they have their golden parachutes.
The basic idea of libertarianism is Federalism--a small central government that has limited power, with the strength being at the state level. this way people in the states have MUCH MORE SAY in how they are governed, and what benefits they get, without having 20 million poor people who believe the liberal class envy poop deciding laws for everyone else.
A perfect example is drug law--some states would have legal drugs, some would not--without Federal government interference. Or abortion. Or gay marriage, the list goes on. And the problem is the establishment on both sides have wiped their asses on the constitution to keep themselves in power and ram their polittical ideology up the asses of people in every state.
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EddYerb
Stranger
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: starfire_xes]
#19050130 - 10/29/13 02:11 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by EddYerb
Reason for deletion: Want to remove
Edited by EddYerb (10/29/13 12:07 PM)
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb] 2
#19050149 - 10/29/13 02:21 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Capitalism serves communities better than socialism ever possibly could.
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EddYerb
Stranger
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: Shins]
#19050213 - 10/29/13 02:59 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by EddYerb
Reason for deletion: Want to remove
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
#19050238 - 10/29/13 03:20 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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sure in a capitalist system some will end up being a wealthy elite. But the same happens in ALL SYSTEMS. At least with capitalism everyone is given an equal chance and equal opportunity, do know how many self made millionaires and billionaires there are? And with capitalism most people are better off and more wealthy. Capitalism is what made america the richest country on earth. Please show me one example of a wealth distribution system that has actually worked
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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EddYerb
Stranger
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: psyconaught]
#19050276 - 10/29/13 03:39 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by EddYerb
Reason for deletion: Want to remove
Edited by EddYerb (10/29/13 03:45 AM)
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
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Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 26 days
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
#19050344 - 10/29/13 04:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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What a classic, addled Utopian Pipe Dream! The problem with what you say is that it does not take into account human nature, indeed, it doesn't take into account basic animal nature and survival of the fittest.
There will always be someone stronger, someone with more will, courage, ability, brains, who will find a way to take more no matter what system it is. The law of the jungle applies to modern society.
In a communistic based society it breaks down when the lazy begin to take advantage of it. A perfect example is the 60's communes in the hippy era. They worked for a while....then came the moochers and the criminals to fuck the young girls, use free dope and freeload off the communities. Humans always have and always will behave this way and starry eyed visions of utopia aren't going to change human nature. It is not going to happen.
You want a fair system that is based on community? Try how the plains indians of the US lived before they were destroyed by european culture.
You know, I've been to 22 countries, and I've lived 12 years outside of the US, 4 years in Europe, 8 in Asia, and I'm not ready to leave the US for any of them.
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EddYerb
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: starfire_xes]
#19050353 - 10/29/13 04:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Fair enough, you're always going to have ties to your homeland.
I know that it's survival of the fittest at the moment, don't believe it always will be and I don't believe that it is human nature.
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Gilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
#19051397 - 10/29/13 10:42 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
EddYerb said: Fair enough, you're always going to have ties to your homeland.
I know that it's survival of the fittest at the moment, don't believe it always will be and I don't believe that it is human nature.
Survival of the fittest is in our biology you can not change that. Capitalism is the only system that recognizes that humans are inherently selfish and utilizes that greed for a greater purpose. Your dreams of communism will fail when lazy scum get paid to do nothing your ideal society is a pipe dream.
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qman
Stranger

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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
#19051424 - 10/29/13 10:51 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Smokey420 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Where were you when he said he wanted to spread the wealth around? Your dishonesty is awesome. Do you work for Jay Carney?
What Obama says, and what he actually does in office are two completely different things. Just like the majority of every politician ever. Not that i doubt he ever said "spread around the wealth" but more then likely you herd it taken of of context on some conservative talk show propaganda machine. Honestly all you have to do is look what the Socialist party of America has to say about him. They hate him, like every other socialist or communist should. He's a strong state capitalist that voted to bail out corporate America, and is a strong supporter of the military industrial complex, and Wall-street. His administration is stocked with chairmen of Goldman Sachs and Fannie Mae. He's a huge capitalist, ask any socialist.
I agree, Obama might be a "socialist" in his true spirit, but he governs like a corporate capitalist.
Somewhat but he is also heavily socialist. See ObamaCare. Quote:
True liberals really do despise Obama, how does the top 1/10 of !% increase their wealth by 20% and the bottom 99% lose a portion of their wealth during his tenure if he governs like a socialist? He's bought and paid for, his true ideology is meaningless at the end of the day.
I don't want to break your heart but the top 1/10th of 1% is always going to win. Whether they are capitalist Wall Streeters or communist apparatchiks.
"he is also heavily socialist. See Obamacare."
How is Obama care a socialist program? The President is on TV begging people to BUY health insurance from "for profit" companies.
"the top 1/10th of 1% is always going to win"
True, but the wealth gap has accelerated at a historic rate under this Presidents tenure, this is not common in recent US economic history. During the 1940-70's, the reverse was happening, I would assume you would agree that era was one of the best in US economic history.
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EddYerb
Stranger
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: Gilgamesh18]
#19051650 - 10/29/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by EddYerb
Reason for deletion: Want to remove
Edited by EddYerb (10/29/13 12:50 PM)
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