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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19029099 - 10/25/13 12:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Haha ok, I see we're done here. I don't really care what you think. Maybe you should take a history class tho.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19030238 - 10/25/13 09:43 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
and the reason people in third world countries work for pennies is because they are nearly worthless in a productivity sense. Wages arise out of productivity, not the other way around. A government mandate can't force everyone to put forth at least $10 an hour worth of productivity




Lack of productivity? I don't know if you know this but.. Almost everything that is sold in America is made in China with extremely cheap labor. They work for pennies because there is no laws against it.



and the reason so many things are made over there is because it takes the skill level of a monkey to create these things. A company is not getting $10 an hour worth of productivity by having someone pull a lever. Excessive government regulation hinders growth of the economy and innovation which makes us fall behind. Thus creating a situation where an impoverished chinese farmhand has the same level of skill as the average american




"it takes the skill level of a monkey to create these things"

This is very true, but now much higher skilled jobs are being exported overseas.

There are highly skilled and educated people in China that can do anything an American worker can do.

This has nothing to do with "excessive government regulation hinders growth of the economy", this is called mixing developed economies with third world economies, the end result is constant deterioration of the developed nations.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: qman] * 1
    #19030830 - 10/25/13 12:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19030886 - 10/25/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.




That's true, but is mostly comes down to labor costs.

Why should a US company pay skilled labor $60,000-$100,000 per year in the US, when they can hire the same skill set in India for $10,000-$15,000 per year? 

I don't care about what regulation hurdles there are in the US, we CAN'T compete with lower labor costs in third world economies.

The capitalists use every excuse in the world for why the US worker can't compete in the global workforce, and taxes and too many regulations are always the same excuse, why don't they ever mention labor costs?  Because the difference is so huge, that it's very embarrassing.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Registered: 03/01/12
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19030887 - 10/25/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.



Agreed easier it is to do business more jobs less poverty more education its a self sustaining cycle.


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19031636 - 10/25/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.



Agreed easier it is to do business more jobs less poverty more education its a self sustaining cycle.




More jobs don't equal less poverty, if those jobs don't pay a living wage.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19031649 - 10/25/13 03:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.



Agreed easier it is to do business more jobs less poverty more education its a self sustaining cycle.




More jobs don't equal less poverty, if those jobs don't pay a living wage.



not all jobs are supposed to be a living wage. thats what people don't understand. First jobs are meant to be able to build up your skill usually during teenage years while still in high school in order to better market yourself for a higher paying job once you graduate and need a living wage.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19031664 - 10/25/13 03:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.



Agreed easier it is to do business more jobs less poverty more education its a self sustaining cycle.




More jobs don't equal less poverty, if those jobs don't pay a living wage.




We could have more jobs in the US, the only problem is no one (especially the capitalists) want to say how we could do it.

Wages for low-skilled labor would most likely have to drop to the $2-3 per hour range, then it would be economically beneficial to manufacturer products in the homeland.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19031676 - 10/25/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.



Agreed easier it is to do business more jobs less poverty more education its a self sustaining cycle.




More jobs don't equal less poverty, if those jobs don't pay a living wage.




:facepalm:

Do you know what equals poverty?  Babies.  What is a living wage, by the way?


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19031677 - 10/25/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You should be able to survive working a full time job. You should be able to make rent, and feed your children. 44% of all homeless people are employed full time. If you think low wage jobs are only for teenagers, who do you think makes your fat burger during school hours?


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Offlineqman
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19031683 - 10/25/13 03:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.



Agreed easier it is to do business more jobs less poverty more education its a self sustaining cycle.




More jobs don't equal less poverty, if those jobs don't pay a living wage.



not all jobs are supposed to be a living wage. thats what people don't understand. First jobs are meant to be able to build up your skill usually during teenage years while still in high school in order to better market yourself for a higher paying job once you graduate and need a living wage.





You're thinking like the way it used to be in the US, but if we look at Wal-Mart and most low to medium skilled workers, it's a career.

No one chooses to work at fast food and retail for 10-15 years if there are better opportunities, it's become a economic reality.


Edited by qman (10/25/13 03:34 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: qman]
    #19031684 - 10/25/13 03:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.



Agreed easier it is to do business more jobs less poverty more education its a self sustaining cycle.




More jobs don't equal less poverty, if those jobs don't pay a living wage.




We could have more jobs in the US, the only problem is no one (especially the capitalists) want to say how we could do it.

Wages for low-skilled labor would most likely have to drop to the $2-3 per hour range, then it would be economically beneficial to manufacturer products in the homeland.





The low skilled illegal immigrant where I live gets $100 a day plus lunch plus transportation


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19031702 - 10/25/13 03:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.



Agreed easier it is to do business more jobs less poverty more education its a self sustaining cycle.




More jobs don't equal less poverty, if those jobs don't pay a living wage.




:facepalm:

Do you know what equals poverty?  Babies.  What is a living wage, by the way?




A living wage equals being able to pay rent and feed your family. When company's don't pay their workers a living wage, it costs tax payers money because those people rely on food stamps and welfare .


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Offlineqman
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19031707 - 10/25/13 03:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
You should be able to survive working a full time job. You should be able to make rent, and feed your children. 44% of all homeless people are employed full time. If you think low wage jobs are only for teenagers, who do you think makes your fat burger during school hours?




The sad reality is that most of the global workforce can't afford all of those things, what makes you think the US is so special?


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: qman]
    #19031711 - 10/25/13 03:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
You should be able to survive working a full time job. You should be able to make rent, and feed your children. 44% of all homeless people are employed full time. If you think low wage jobs are only for teenagers, who do you think makes your fat burger during school hours?




The sad reality is that most of the global workforce can't afford all of those things, what makes you think the US is so special?




Because the US is the most wealthy nation in the world.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19031723 - 10/25/13 03:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
You should be able to survive working a full time job. You should be able to make rent, and feed your children. 44% of all homeless people are employed full time. If you think low wage jobs are only for teenagers, who do you think makes your fat burger during school hours?




The sad reality is that most of the global workforce can't afford all of those things, what makes you think the US is so special?




Because the US is the most wealthy nation in the world.




The majority of the wealth is highly concentrated at the top, and they have chosen to use cheap labor overseas, it looks like the workers are shit out of luck in most circumstances.


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: qman]
    #19031734 - 10/25/13 03:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Which is why we need more regulation to keep company's from sending jobs overseas for cheap labor.


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19031747 - 10/25/13 03:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Minimum wage should also increase with inflation. $2-3 dollars an hour  in america would lead to a revolt. No one can survive on those wages here in America.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420] * 1
    #19031758 - 10/25/13 03:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:


Do you know what equals poverty?  Babies.  What is a living wage, by the way?




A living wage equals being able to pay rent and feed your family. When company's don't pay their workers a living wage, it costs tax payers money because those people rely on food stamps and welfare .




What the fuck does that mean?  Should some breeder be paid more for the same work as a single person or a couple with no leeches?  Should it be more in NYC than in Idaho?  Pay rent on what, exactly?  A 500 sq ft studio in Manhattan for 2,000 or a 2 bedroom house in Binghamton for 800?

When companies don't pay their workers enough they quit and go work for somebody else who will pay more.  If they can get it.  If they can't they don't.  O well.

Do you know how to save taxpayer money on welfare and food stamps?  Make the fuckers work on municipal projects.  This will have the added benefit of cutting the nuts off of union no skill workers getting paid way beyond what their skills would ever command in a real market.

You don't give two shits about saving taxpayer money except to the extent that you would like to see more of it sent your way.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19031800 - 10/25/13 03:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

how do you define a living wage? I make $15 dollars an hour. Is that a living wage in your opinion? I'd barely get by in san francisco yet i would thrive and have more than enough in some of the cheaper areas in the country. So i ask you, what is a living wage? How can you norm the entire country into one catch all number?

And instead of creating regulation and forcing people to keep jobs here wouldn't it be better to simply make is more appealing to do business here? That would have the benefit of keeping jobs here AND attracting oversee's jobs.

And what no one seems to mention about those oversees jobs where people make a lot less is that the cost of living is extraordinarily low in places like india and china. Sure they make a lot less but it costs $90 a month in india to rent an apartment on average.


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