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Offlinepsyconaught
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Registered: 11/04/10
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Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Libertarian discussions (both for and against)
    #19020301 - 10/23/13 04:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I thought it would be a cool idea to have a thread dedicated to discussion of the libertarian ideology! It will allow the libertarian community among the shroomery to come together and discuss the concepts and ideals as well as provide a forum for debate between both those within the movement and those who are oppose! My only request is that it remain civil.

I'll begin. Personally i am a libertarian (obviously), for a period of time however i believed in the nordic model of a social democracy. But once i began to delve deeper into economics and actual theory that quickly changed as i realized libertarian concepts are the only ones that can work in a long term sustainable manner. Personal freedom (both economic freedom and otherwise) are what ultimately leads to the greatest prosperity among all people.

Now i welcome questions, comments, opposing views, supporting views, or whatever! My hope is that this thread can become a civil debate where misconceptions about the libertarian movement can be cleared up and discussed, as there are A LOT of  misconceptions about it.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19020506 - 10/23/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yea I remember arguing with you all I can say is welcome to the libertarian ideology!


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19020535 - 10/23/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Thank you! yeah i openly admit i was naive and idealistic, I was arguing more out of emotion than actual models of fact and the real world. Im glad i've been able to reason my way out of it though


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught] * 1
    #19020620 - 10/23/13 05:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Congratulations.  You have escaped the clutches of the education/indoctrination complex.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19020626 - 10/23/13 05:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Thank you! yeah i openly admit i was naive and idealistic, I was arguing more out of emotion than actual models of fact and the real world. Im glad i've been able to reason my way out of it though



Well we need all the help we can get it seems that the majority of the youth want to be controlled and coddled by the State. As a junior in college the vast majority of my classmates look at me in horror when I talk about how the free market helps and uplifts every individual.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Registered: 11/04/10
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19020664 - 10/23/13 05:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Thank you! yeah i openly admit i was naive and idealistic, I was arguing more out of emotion than actual models of fact and the real world. Im glad i've been able to reason my way out of it though



Well we need all the help we can get it seems that the majority of the youth want to be controlled and coddled by the State. As a junior in college the vast majority of my classmates look at me in horror when I talk about how the free market helps and uplifts every individual.



yeah i get that as well. I have yet to meet someone my age who agrees with my point of view. I just graduated high school a few months ago.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19020668 - 10/23/13 05:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Congratulations.  You have escaped the clutches of the education/indoctrination complex.



glad to be free


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19020920 - 10/23/13 06:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Thank you! yeah i openly admit i was naive and idealistic, I was arguing more out of emotion than actual models of fact and the real world. Im glad i've been able to reason my way out of it though



Well we need all the help we can get it seems that the majority of the youth want to be controlled and coddled by the State. As a junior in college the vast majority of my classmates look at me in horror when I talk about how the free market helps and uplifts every individual.



yeah i get that as well. I have yet to meet someone my age who agrees with my point of view. I just graduated high school a few months ago.



This is a function of liberal jackasses from my generation, like the terrorist William Ayers, totally over-running the educational system and the rise of public sector unionism and the tenure system in K through 12.  What possible justification can there be for tenure for K-12 teachers.  They don't do research.


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19021582 - 10/23/13 08:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Libertarianism is not-misunderstood--it is misrepresented by the Media-Cocksuckers who blow the democrats and republicans.  It is hated by both parties because it seriously interferes with government control and derails the gravy train that the (R) and (D) have used for the last 100 years to gain power and keep it.

And now, before everyone starts sucking everyones dick about how great Libertarianism is--or can be--the challenge isn't convincing other libertarians  the challenge is convincing people like Sweeper and Mush that the government isn't their friend and that that big cherry red apple the democrats dangle before their eyes is really a shit-sandwich painted with lipstick.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19021650 - 10/23/13 08:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

well that was one of the points of this thread. I was hoping more people who are against it would comment so debates could be had.


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Offlinepsilynut
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19022122 - 10/23/13 09:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

So libertarians believe in freedom and a govt with little power and and no money .  Is that right ?  I've been to countrys like this in South America .  I've been to places where the government takes in such a small amount of taxes cops can't even enforce traffic rules . You can speed, run lights , go the wrong way on one way streets .  At first I thought , awesome no cops! But it not awesome, it's sucks , it's scary  , freedom isn't always a good thing .
    To me libertarians are just tea party republicans who are afraid to admit it because the Republican Party has become such tragic train wreck of ridiculousness .


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psilynut]
    #19022165 - 10/23/13 09:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
So libertarians believe in freedom and a govt with little power and and no money .  Is that right ?  I've been to countrys like this in South America .  I've been to places where the government takes in such a small amount of taxes cops can't even enforce traffic rules . You can speed, run lights , go the wrong way on one way streets .  At first I thought , awesome no cops! But it not awesome, it's sucks , it's scary  , freedom isn't always a good thing .
    To me libertarians are just tea party republicans who are afraid to admit it because the Republican Party has become such tragic train wreck of ridiculousness .





Not exactly.  Libertarians think is up to the states to run the police and to collect taxes and money for the support of the state.  And the people of the state have a much stronger vote at the local/state level because their vote isn't diluted by the votes of the other states.  so when a state has a policy you disagree with, if you are in a minority you move to a state where the laws/taxes are more to your liking, or you organize to change the policies in the states.  This prevents the people of say, Montana, to have their laws dictated by the people in the big states--California, Texas, etc.  and allows them autonomy.  that is how it is supposed to work in this republic.  Instead we have a big nanny federal government who decides for everyone and destroys the individual democracy of the states.

What hurts the country is the Federal Governments one size fits all bullshit.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19022178 - 10/23/13 09:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

psilynut said:
So libertarians believe in freedom and a govt with little power and and no money .  Is that right ?  I've been to countrys like this in South America .  I've been to places where the government takes in such a small amount of taxes cops can't even enforce traffic rules . You can speed, run lights , go the wrong way on one way streets .  At first I thought , awesome no cops! But it not awesome, it's sucks , it's scary  , freedom isn't always a good thing .
    To me libertarians are just tea party republicans who are afraid to admit it because the Republican Party has become such tragic train wreck of ridiculousness .





Not exactly.  Libertarians think is up to the states to run the police and to collect taxes and money for the support of the state.  And the people of the state have a much stronger vote at the local/state level because their vote isn't diluted by the votes of the other states.  so when a state has a policy you disagree with, if you are in a minority you move to a state where the laws/taxes are more to your liking, or you organize to change the policies in the states.  This prevents the people of say, Montana, to have their laws dictated by the people in the big states--California, Texas, etc.  and allows them autonomy.  that is how it is supposed to work in this republic.  Instead we have a big nanny federal government who decides for everyone and destroys the individual democracy of the states.

What hurts the country is the Federal Governments one size fits all bullshit.



cant really add anything else. He hit the nail on the head. And what the government should be funding is completely different from what it is funding. Libertarians believe that the government should absolutely be funded for specific functions. But beyond that little to no funding.


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OfflineTalesfromtheTrypt
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psilynut]
    #19022341 - 10/23/13 10:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I think libertarianism (real libertarianism, not Ron Paul's) can appeal to people across the current political spectrum, because it's fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Many people only vote Republican because they're fiscally conservative and either disagree with or are indifferent to the more socially conservative wing of the party. In contrast, many people vote Democrat because the social conservatism they see in the current Republican party scares them and they don't really feel strongly about fiscal policy or maybe are even fiscally conservative themselves. For them all it comes down to at election time is whether they feel more strongly on social issues or fiscal issues, because there's no real alternative to Democrats and Republicans to people who don't want to feel like they're throwing their vote away. Plus today's political environment has people voting against the party they don't like instead of for the party they do like. That's why libertarianism is particularly attractive today, if any party in the next few decades wins a single congressional seat, it will be the Libertarian Party. So take your pick, there's plenty of appeal and it would get plenty of votes if people actually viewed it as a viable 3rd party.


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19022423 - 10/23/13 10:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Libertarian socialism, yes.
Libertarian capitalism, no.
The idea of a libertarian capitalist is an American phenomenon. It is laughed at in most countries, and comes very close to fascism.



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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420] * 1
    #19022757 - 10/23/13 11:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Libertarian socialism, yes.
Libertarian capitalism, no.
The idea of a libertarian capitalist is an American phenomenon. It is laughed at in most countries, and comes very close to fascism.






What are you talking about?  libertarianism is the anti-thesis of facism.  LOL

fas·cism
noun \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\

: a way of organizing a society in which a government ruled by a dictator controls the lives of the people and in which people are not allowed to disagree with the government


That definition--from Merriam Webster--sounds like the Obama regime to me. :smirk:


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Offlinepsilynut
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19022858 - 10/23/13 11:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Libertarians think is up to the states to run the police and to collect taxes and money for the support of the state.




So what would happen to a state like Mississippi that receives  2.50 in federal aid for every dollar they pay in taxes? Whats worse than brokedick?
I know what would happen to my state since we pay 1 dollar and get 1 dollar. Im guessing in the other states that get more money than they pay taxes would have to be raised or just get used to things sucking more than they already do.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psilynut] * 1
    #19022889 - 10/23/13 11:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

states that are badly run would have people leave the state, opting for states that are run better. Much like how if a business is badly run it stops getting customers. If people want better education for their children they are going to go to a school with higher standards, or move to a state that has more emphasis on education. People will move to areas that better suit their wants and needs. If Mississippi does a shit job at running the state everyone will leave and they have an incentive to get their shit together.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psilynut]
    #19022917 - 10/23/13 11:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
Quote:

Libertarians think is up to the states to run the police and to collect taxes and money for the support of the state.




So what would happen to a state like Mississippi that receives  2.50 in federal aid for every dollar they pay in taxes? Whats worse than brokedick?
I know what would happen to my state since we pay 1 dollar and get 1 dollar. Im guessing in the other states that get more money than they pay taxes would have to be raised or just get used to things sucking more than they already do.



Many unnecessary regulations and programs would be cut as well so federal spending would drop dramatically. Mississippi would also have an incentive to be run more like a business and focus on profitability instead of federal dependence.


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19022953 - 10/24/13 12:01 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power” -Benito Mussolini

This quote exactly describes the philosophy of Capitalist Libertarianism.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19022982 - 10/24/13 12:06 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power” -Benito Mussolini

This quote exactly describes the philosophy of Capitalist Libertarianism.



The power of the state is severely curtailed in libertarian philosophy not sure why corporate and state power would merge. One of the main tenants of libertarian philosophy is limited or no state interference in the market.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19022986 - 10/24/13 12:07 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

no it doesnt. Not at all. Libertarianism seeks the complete opposite actually. By limiting the power of the government you limit the possibility for corporate influence, the less power that exists the less power there is available to take over


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Offlinepsilynut
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19023051 - 10/24/13 12:26 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

states that are badly run would have people leave the state,




California is already too crowded. Were talking about allot of states here. I want the Beverly hillbillies to stay where they are. Besides you can only have 10 bullets in your gun.


Quote:

state everyone will leave and they have an incentive to get their shit together.




First of all, poor people dont have money to leave.
If everyone leaves the people they elected wont have any tax revenue to run the state and get their shit together with.

Quote:

Mississippi would also have an incentive to be run more like a business and focus on profitability




Profitability out of poor people? Its the poorest state already. They dont have anything. How do you do that? Taking away federal aid might make it 3rd world.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psilynut]
    #19023088 - 10/24/13 12:41 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

not everyone wants to live in california.

and thats bull shit. People need to take responsibility for themselves. I'm poor (due to recently graduating high school) and i can move anywhere i want, theres a way to get where you need to be.

and if tax revenue is dropping due to people leaving they the states will have to *gasp* cut spending! A strange and foreign concept no doubt.

profitability as in running the state efficiently and stop pork spending on useless shit. which no doubt there is loads of


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19023110 - 10/24/13 12:48 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Not everyone is 19 and fancy-free. And government is not meant to be a a business.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Le_Canard]
    #19023135 - 10/24/13 12:59 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

and whatever situation a person is in they have no one to blame but themselves excluding extraneous circumstances. Which i promise in most cases, it is not.

no but governments should financially be run like a business


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19023155 - 10/24/13 01:09 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I think it's safe to say that I've seen a bit more of life than most folks here, and sometimes there are extenuating circumstances in life which can lead to unfortunate consequences. I find the incredible lack of empathy exhibited by most Libertarian rather appalling.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Le_Canard]
    #19023214 - 10/24/13 01:33 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

of course there should be some form of welfare. At least in my opinion. I believe in a milton friedman esq. negative income tax


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19023298 - 10/24/13 02:09 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

In this we are in agreement. We should take care of of disabled and elderly.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19024083 - 10/24/13 06:08 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

What I want to know is, what happens if we voted in the libertarian party, and then when the streets became full of sick, starving and diseased people we decided libertarianism sucked and was best suited for lizards and not human beings, could we go back to the way it is now (2013)?


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19024864 - 10/24/13 10:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power” -Benito Mussolini

This quote exactly describes the philosophy of Capitalist Libertarianism.



The power of the state is severely curtailed in libertarian philosophy not sure why corporate and state power would merge. One of the main tenants of libertarian philosophy is limited or no state interference in the market.




If there are no regulations on the market, then corporations would  become even more free to bribe or extort public officials. Essentially these corporations would have even more power then they do today. I'm sure this would also greatly increase the pollution of the planet, without regulation; history has shown us that corporations will disregard safety standards and pollute endlessly If it means an increase in profit. By de-regulating the private sector, you are essentially merging state and corporate power. Free Market Capitalism is Fascism no matter what costume you put on it.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19025032 - 10/24/13 11:14 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power” -Benito Mussolini

This quote exactly describes the philosophy of Capitalist Libertarianism.



The power of the state is severely curtailed in libertarian philosophy not sure why corporate and state power would merge. One of the main tenants of libertarian philosophy is limited or no state interference in the market.




If there are no regulations on the market, then corporations would  become even more free to bribe or extort public officials. Essentially these corporations would have even more power then they do today. I'm sure this would also greatly increase the pollution of the planet, without regulation; history has shown us that corporations will disregard safety standards and pollute endlessly If it means an increase in profit. By de-regulating the private sector, you are essentially merging state and corporate power. Free Market Capitalism is Fascism no matter what costume you put on it.



Again capitalism is not fascism, fascism is the coercion of free individuals to the state. Capitalism is voluntary transactions that no one is forced to participate in. Increase pollution hardly corporations have an incentive to make money and stay profitable destroying the planet is not profitable. Even logging companies plant trees cause guess what if they cut down all the trees they go out of business! If you do not like what a particular corporation is doing boycott them and tell others that is the essence of libertarian thinking. The government on the other hand has a monopoly on violence and theft aka taxes they are far more dangerous than businesses.


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19026490 - 10/24/13 03:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power” -Benito Mussolini

This quote exactly describes the philosophy of Capitalist Libertarianism.



The power of the state is severely curtailed in libertarian philosophy not sure why corporate and state power would merge. One of the main tenants of libertarian philosophy is limited or no state interference in the market.




If there are no regulations on the market, then corporations would  become even more free to bribe or extort public officials. Essentially these corporations would have even more power then they do today. I'm sure this would also greatly increase the pollution of the planet, without regulation; history has shown us that corporations will disregard safety standards and pollute endlessly If it means an increase in profit. By de-regulating the private sector, you are essentially merging state and corporate power. Free Market Capitalism is Fascism no matter what costume you put on it.



Again capitalism is not fascism, fascism is the coercion of free individuals to the state. Capitalism is voluntary transactions that no one is forced to participate in. Increase pollution hardly corporations have an incentive to make money and stay profitable destroying the planet is not profitable. Even logging companies plant trees cause guess what if they cut down all the trees they go out of business! If you do not like what a particular corporation is doing boycott them and tell others that is the essence of libertarian thinking. The government on the other hand has a monopoly on violence and theft aka taxes they are far more dangerous than businesses.





While I'll agree that our taxes in America can be considred theft. The idea of taxation is not. Everyone in society should contribute to that society, it's called doing your part. And seriously, you think corporations have an incentive to not pollute? Have you been living under a rock? Exxon Valdez, Fukushima, The BP oil spill, clear cuting  in the rain forest, murder of indigenous tribes at the hand of shell. Corporations are destroying this planet as we speak, and they will continue to do so it means there is an increase in their profits. Because that's all corporations care about, profits. They will kill,
Pollute, and destroy people's lives in that pursuit. Profit is their only incentive, and money is their god.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19026641 - 10/24/13 04:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Smokey I agree some corporations are shady hence why I do not support them. I live in Portland oregon and get around by bicycle or on foot so I do not support these companies. I buy local because I care about the local economy. These entities only have as much power as we give them once there bottom line is hurt enough they will change. The state on the other seizes my wealth through taxation and redistributes it quite wastefully they are the real problem.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19026966 - 10/24/13 05:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The problem with that is most people won't stop buying a company's products due to environmental concerns, which leaves them open to doing whatever they want to maximize profitability. Remember the Cuyahoga River fire in '69? That's why the EPA was created, and due to their policies our rivers don't ignite any more. We obviously need some form of regulation to at least prevent companies from doing things like dumping whatever they want into our rivers. Once we accept that, the argument can then focus on the scope of regulations, or whether they should be handled by federal or state governments, and so forth. There are after all some things that we do need our representatives to do for us that are in our best interests. Just because we can't boycott a company into bankruptcy for polluting our water doesn't mean we should have to drink it.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19026972 - 10/24/13 05:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Libertarian socialism, yes.
Libertarian capitalism, no.
The idea of a libertarian capitalist is an American phenomenon. It is laughed at in most countries, and comes very close to fascism.





Please tell me why I should give a fuck what some stupid losers think.  Noam Chomsky is a freakshow whackjob cunt who should have kept to his speciality.  Do you know who is laughed at?  Noam Chomsky


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psilynut]
    #19026982 - 10/24/13 05:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
Quote:

Libertarians think is up to the states to run the police and to collect taxes and money for the support of the state.




So what would happen to a state like Mississippi that receives  2.50 in federal aid for every dollar they pay in taxes? Whats worse than brokedick?
I know what would happen to my state since we pay 1 dollar and get 1 dollar. Im guessing in the other states that get more money than they pay taxes would have to be raised or just get used to things sucking more than they already do.




Or maybe they could be free to adjust their policies to succeed and their bums could all move to California.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Le_Canard] * 1
    #19026996 - 10/24/13 05:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
Not everyone is 19 and fancy-free. And government is not meant to be a a business.



Then why do the liberals keep stuffing it into business?


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19027690 - 10/24/13 07:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Libertarian socialism, yes.
Libertarian capitalism, no.
The idea of a libertarian capitalist is an American phenomenon. It is laughed at in most countries, and comes very close to fascism.





Please tell me why I should give a fuck what some stupid losers think.  Noam Chomsky is a freakshow whackjob cunt who should have kept to his speciality.  Do you know who is laughed at?  Noam Chomsky



Noam Chomsky is allot smarter then both you, and myself. Did you even listen to what he had to say? I doubt you did.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420] * 1
    #19027744 - 10/24/13 07:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Noam Chomsky was an interesting linguistic theorist.  I have read him extensively for over 30 years.  Outside of that field he is a blithering idiot.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19027799 - 10/24/13 07:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Noam Chomsky was an interesting linguistic theorist.  I have read him extensively for over 30 years.  Outside of that field he is a blithering idiot.



why, because his politics differ from yours? I don't agree with everything he says; however, he's spot on in that video.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420] * 1
    #19027896 - 10/24/13 07:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Noam Chomsky was an interesting linguistic theorist.  I have read him extensively for over 30 years.  Outside of that field he is a blithering idiot.



why, because his politics differ from yours? I don't agree with everything he says; however, he's spot on in that video.




Not because they differ from mine but because they are jejune and vacuous.  I have seen better political arguments I disagree with put forth by Shroomerites.

I am not going to watch a video of Noam Chomsky.  As I said I am extremely familiar with his writing and opinions.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19028650 - 10/24/13 10:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Will, it's not like I'm going to convince you of anything Zappa.  I suggest OP take a look at the video and see both sides before devoting yourself to the American Libertarian Party.
I agree that the state is dangerous and oppressive; However, I am convinced that free market Capitalism, endorsed by American Libertarians, will lead to an even further damaged society. A society where profit is valued over all things, and the poor, the disabled, and the elderly will be even further neglected and left to starve.  Without regulation, these corporate entities will mine, fish, and pollute until there is nothing left. Alternative forms of energy will never be developed, because corporations can't sell solar rays, and wind.  Without regulations, the workplace in America will return to what it is in the third world: child labor, and unsafe working conditions will be the norm. Without the minimum wage, workers  could make pennies a day for back breaking work.

Boycotting corporations that are supper shady is great in concept. But in reality, the majority of people are mindless sheep, they buy what they see on Tv, and matter how fucked up their practices are, they are never going out of business. There are better alternatives that oppose government oppression then libertarianism, which just replaces state oppression with corporate oppression.


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Edited by Smokey420 (10/24/13 10:16 PM)


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19028776 - 10/24/13 10:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

i do not devote myself to any political party. I agree with general libertarian ideals, small government, free market, etc.

alternative forms of energy absolutely would have been developed because theres a demand for it. People want solar panels so someone will provide solar panels, its as simple as that. And the minimum wage hurts poor and disadvantaged workers the most, it discriminates against low skilled workers.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19028899 - 10/24/13 11:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Alternative forms of energy will never be developed, because corporations can't sell solar rays, and wind.  Without regulations, the workplace in America will return to what it is in the third world





yes, alternative forms of energy will be developed--just as soon as they are economically feasible.  You don't think there are no big companies that are investing in research to develop clean energy sources?  There are.  And there are companies that are getting handouts from their buddies in Washington so they can pay their execs fat bonuses and then shutdown.  Hmmm...who might that be (Solyandra?  Fisker?)

And no one is saying zero regulations.  You seem to think what the free-market people want is complete, lawless chaos--nothing could be further from the truth. 

Ask yourself this:  at what point are there enough regulations?


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19028908 - 10/24/13 11:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The only reason solar energy has picked up is because of goverment subsidies. Without a minimum wage, poor and disadvantaged workers would be making what they make in the third world, dollars a day if they're lucky. If you knew a thing or two about labor history in this country, you would see minimum wage laws were won over by striking disadvantaged workers. Same as the weekend, child labor laws, work place safety, and the eight hour work day.

But if you really want to work in factories like the ones in Bangladesh, where hundreds of people die every year from factory fires and building collapses, then keep pushing the good old American free market capitalism. Better yet, move to one of the third world counties that don't regulate business and see how you like it.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19028945 - 10/24/13 11:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
The only reason solar energy has picked up is because of goverment subsidies.





You mean all those solar companies that got government subsidies and then died out because they couldn't compete with China?

Amd who is advocating slave-labor sweat shops and sub-standard working conditions?  You are making a huge leap from free-market to the idea that everyone wants slave labor. 

Maybe everyone should wear grey suits and work at the collective factory, and then stand in line for loaves of bread.  :smirk:

The only people that benefit from a central authoritarian, socialist government are the elitists who run the show.  Everyone else is fucked.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19028961 - 10/24/13 11:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Which is why i don't support, want, or endorse state communism or socialism. 
I'm not saying that you want slave labor; however, that is what free market capitalism evolves into. Profit over people.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19028987 - 10/24/13 11:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
The only reason solar energy has picked up is because of goverment subsidies. Without a minimum wage, poor and disadvantaged workers would be making what they make in the third world, dollars a day if they're lucky. If you knew a thing or two about labor history in this country, you would see minimum wage laws were won over by striking disadvantaged workers. Same as the weekend, child labor laws, work place safety, and the eight hour work day.

But if you really want to work in factories like the ones in Bangladesh, where hundreds of people die every year from factory fires and building collapses, then keep pushing the good old American free market capitalism. Better yet, move to one of the third world counties that don't regulate business and see how you like it.



you don't need the government to get any of the improvements your talking about (except minimum wage which shouldn't exist). You proved my point exactly, striking workers brought about change in the business place, if workers are valuable and go on strike then employers have an incentive to improve the conditions in order to get the valuable workers back. No government involvement needed.

The reason we shouldn't raise the minimum wage to $10 an hour is the same reason we shouldn't raise the minimum wage to $100 an hour.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19028992 - 10/24/13 11:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

and the reason people in third world countries work for pennies is because they are nearly worthless in a productivity sense. Wages arise out of productivity, not the other way around. A government mandate can't force everyone to put forth at least $10 an hour worth of productivity


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19029006 - 10/24/13 11:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Really? again you show your lacking knowledge of history. Those companies didn't want their workers back, they hired people who would do the job for half the price; and in the case of Blair Mountain, shoot and kill them, and their families.

http://www.pawv.org/news/blairhist.htm


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19029016 - 10/24/13 11:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
and the reason people in third world countries work for pennies is because they are nearly worthless in a productivity sense. Wages arise out of productivity, not the other way around. A government mandate can't force everyone to put forth at least $10 an hour worth of productivity




Lack of productivity? I don't know if you know this but.. Almost everything that is sold in America is made in China with extremely cheap labor. They work for pennies because there is no laws against it.


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Edited by Smokey420 (10/24/13 11:44 PM)


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19029024 - 10/24/13 11:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

are you really trying to argue that under libertarianism murder would be justified in retaliation to a strike  :thisfuckinguy:

and if you read my post i said VALUABLE workers, if someone can do the job for half the price then the workers being replaced must not be very skilled right? Competition among companies is good so why is competition among the labor market not good?


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19029028 - 10/24/13 11:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
and the reason people in third world countries work for pennies is because they are nearly worthless in a productivity sense. Wages arise out of productivity, not the other way around. A government mandate can't force everyone to put forth at least $10 an hour worth of productivity




Lack of productivity? I don't know if you know this but.. Almost everything that is sold in America is made in China with extremely cheap labor. They work for pennies because there is no laws against it.



and the reason so many things are made over there is because it takes the skill level of a monkey to create these things. A company is not getting $10 an hour worth of productivity by having someone pull a lever. Excessive government regulation hinders growth of the economy and innovation which makes us fall behind. Thus creating a situation where an impoverished chinese farmhand has the same level of skill as the average american


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19029029 - 10/24/13 11:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
are you really trying to argue that under libertarianism murder would be justified in retaliation to a strike  :thisfuckinguy:

and if you read my post i said VALUABLE workers, if someone can do the job for half the price then the workers being replaced must not be very skilled right? Competition among companies is good so why is competition among the labor market not good?




It has in the past, why not again? If we do not learn from history, we're doomed to have it repeat. Read about Blair Mountain, educate yourself.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19029041 - 10/24/13 11:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

People who work for half the price, and become scabs do so because they're desperate. Most the time they're unskilled and the quality of work diminishes, not improves.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19029042 - 10/24/13 11:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

that situation had nothing to do with libertarianism so i'm not sure what your point is. In fact that situation arose out of corporate money buying politicians, something libertarianism is against


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19029048 - 10/24/13 11:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
People who work for half the price, and become scabs do so because they're desperate. Most the time they're unskilled and the quality of work diminishes, not improves.



and if the quality diminishes what happens? Either people move on to a company that produces better goods by hiring more skilled workers, or the company that produces shitty goods has to lower the price to stay competitive. Thus catering to a different market.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19029067 - 10/25/13 12:02 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Not with libertarianism, but with free market capitalism. Back in that time, many minors would have considered themselves libertarians; however just like that word means something completely different in other countries, it meant something completely different back then too. Libertarianism is traditionally anti-capitalist.
  I would be willing to bet that there is not a single conservative who will believe it when I say the founding fathers were staunch anti-capitalists.

In fact, America was fundamentally opposed to capitalism, even republicans as late as Lincoln were opposed to what was known as wage slavery.
They considered exchanging labor for wages a form of slavery. They saw little difference between buying people and renting them and felt the mill-workers should be the mill owners.

Capitalism shouldn't even be called an economy because it does the exact opposite of what an economy is supposed to do. Economize.

Capitalism is the most wasteful of all economic structures known to man. It requires cyclical consumption and continual expansion or it collapses
It not only creates and rewards corruption and greed but stifles new ideas and technology while producing mass inequality.
It forces us to concentrate on building wealth instead of a better society and leaves poverty and hunger in its wake.

It's not the fault of the banks, the corporations, Bush, Obama or the American people. It's the system that is at fault
Exploitation is the core of capitalism and I think we can do better.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19029091 - 10/25/13 12:08 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

you are so completely out of tune and ill informed that i don't even know how to begin. How about this. Replace the word capitalism with communism/socialism in the post you just made and you'll be more accurate.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19029099 - 10/25/13 12:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Haha ok, I see we're done here. I don't really care what you think. Maybe you should take a history class tho.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19030238 - 10/25/13 09:43 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
and the reason people in third world countries work for pennies is because they are nearly worthless in a productivity sense. Wages arise out of productivity, not the other way around. A government mandate can't force everyone to put forth at least $10 an hour worth of productivity




Lack of productivity? I don't know if you know this but.. Almost everything that is sold in America is made in China with extremely cheap labor. They work for pennies because there is no laws against it.



and the reason so many things are made over there is because it takes the skill level of a monkey to create these things. A company is not getting $10 an hour worth of productivity by having someone pull a lever. Excessive government regulation hinders growth of the economy and innovation which makes us fall behind. Thus creating a situation where an impoverished chinese farmhand has the same level of skill as the average american




"it takes the skill level of a monkey to create these things"

This is very true, but now much higher skilled jobs are being exported overseas.

There are highly skilled and educated people in China that can do anything an American worker can do.

This has nothing to do with "excessive government regulation hinders growth of the economy", this is called mixing developed economies with third world economies, the end result is constant deterioration of the developed nations.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: qman] * 1
    #19030830 - 10/25/13 12:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19030886 - 10/25/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.




That's true, but is mostly comes down to labor costs.

Why should a US company pay skilled labor $60,000-$100,000 per year in the US, when they can hire the same skill set in India for $10,000-$15,000 per year? 

I don't care about what regulation hurdles there are in the US, we CAN'T compete with lower labor costs in third world economies.

The capitalists use every excuse in the world for why the US worker can't compete in the global workforce, and taxes and too many regulations are always the same excuse, why don't they ever mention labor costs?  Because the difference is so huge, that it's very embarrassing.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Registered: 03/01/12
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19030887 - 10/25/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.



Agreed easier it is to do business more jobs less poverty more education its a self sustaining cycle.


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19031636 - 10/25/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.



Agreed easier it is to do business more jobs less poverty more education its a self sustaining cycle.




More jobs don't equal less poverty, if those jobs don't pay a living wage.


--------------------
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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19031649 - 10/25/13 03:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.



Agreed easier it is to do business more jobs less poverty more education its a self sustaining cycle.




More jobs don't equal less poverty, if those jobs don't pay a living wage.



not all jobs are supposed to be a living wage. thats what people don't understand. First jobs are meant to be able to build up your skill usually during teenage years while still in high school in order to better market yourself for a higher paying job once you graduate and need a living wage.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19031664 - 10/25/13 03:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.



Agreed easier it is to do business more jobs less poverty more education its a self sustaining cycle.




More jobs don't equal less poverty, if those jobs don't pay a living wage.




We could have more jobs in the US, the only problem is no one (especially the capitalists) want to say how we could do it.

Wages for low-skilled labor would most likely have to drop to the $2-3 per hour range, then it would be economically beneficial to manufacturer products in the homeland.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19031676 - 10/25/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.



Agreed easier it is to do business more jobs less poverty more education its a self sustaining cycle.




More jobs don't equal less poverty, if those jobs don't pay a living wage.




:facepalm:

Do you know what equals poverty?  Babies.  What is a living wage, by the way?


--------------------


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19031677 - 10/25/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You should be able to survive working a full time job. You should be able to make rent, and feed your children. 44% of all homeless people are employed full time. If you think low wage jobs are only for teenagers, who do you think makes your fat burger during school hours?


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Offlineqman
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19031683 - 10/25/13 03:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.



Agreed easier it is to do business more jobs less poverty more education its a self sustaining cycle.




More jobs don't equal less poverty, if those jobs don't pay a living wage.



not all jobs are supposed to be a living wage. thats what people don't understand. First jobs are meant to be able to build up your skill usually during teenage years while still in high school in order to better market yourself for a higher paying job once you graduate and need a living wage.





You're thinking like the way it used to be in the US, but if we look at Wal-Mart and most low to medium skilled workers, it's a career.

No one chooses to work at fast food and retail for 10-15 years if there are better opportunities, it's become a economic reality.


Edited by qman (10/25/13 03:34 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: qman]
    #19031684 - 10/25/13 03:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.



Agreed easier it is to do business more jobs less poverty more education its a self sustaining cycle.




More jobs don't equal less poverty, if those jobs don't pay a living wage.




We could have more jobs in the US, the only problem is no one (especially the capitalists) want to say how we could do it.

Wages for low-skilled labor would most likely have to drop to the $2-3 per hour range, then it would be economically beneficial to manufacturer products in the homeland.





The low skilled illegal immigrant where I live gets $100 a day plus lunch plus transportation


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19031702 - 10/25/13 03:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
the reason so many skilled jobs are starting to go oversees is because of how many barriers to entry now exist here in america, its extremely difficult to start and run a business with all of the regulations, taxes, permitting, etc. Its just easier to shit jobs oversees than deal with all that. We need to make it easier to do business here.



Agreed easier it is to do business more jobs less poverty more education its a self sustaining cycle.




More jobs don't equal less poverty, if those jobs don't pay a living wage.




:facepalm:

Do you know what equals poverty?  Babies.  What is a living wage, by the way?




A living wage equals being able to pay rent and feed your family. When company's don't pay their workers a living wage, it costs tax payers money because those people rely on food stamps and welfare .


--------------------
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Offlineqman
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19031707 - 10/25/13 03:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
You should be able to survive working a full time job. You should be able to make rent, and feed your children. 44% of all homeless people are employed full time. If you think low wage jobs are only for teenagers, who do you think makes your fat burger during school hours?




The sad reality is that most of the global workforce can't afford all of those things, what makes you think the US is so special?


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: qman]
    #19031711 - 10/25/13 03:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
You should be able to survive working a full time job. You should be able to make rent, and feed your children. 44% of all homeless people are employed full time. If you think low wage jobs are only for teenagers, who do you think makes your fat burger during school hours?




The sad reality is that most of the global workforce can't afford all of those things, what makes you think the US is so special?




Because the US is the most wealthy nation in the world.


--------------------
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Offlineqman
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19031723 - 10/25/13 03:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
You should be able to survive working a full time job. You should be able to make rent, and feed your children. 44% of all homeless people are employed full time. If you think low wage jobs are only for teenagers, who do you think makes your fat burger during school hours?




The sad reality is that most of the global workforce can't afford all of those things, what makes you think the US is so special?




Because the US is the most wealthy nation in the world.




The majority of the wealth is highly concentrated at the top, and they have chosen to use cheap labor overseas, it looks like the workers are shit out of luck in most circumstances.


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: qman]
    #19031734 - 10/25/13 03:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Which is why we need more regulation to keep company's from sending jobs overseas for cheap labor.


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19031747 - 10/25/13 03:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Minimum wage should also increase with inflation. $2-3 dollars an hour  in america would lead to a revolt. No one can survive on those wages here in America.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420] * 1
    #19031758 - 10/25/13 03:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:


Do you know what equals poverty?  Babies.  What is a living wage, by the way?




A living wage equals being able to pay rent and feed your family. When company's don't pay their workers a living wage, it costs tax payers money because those people rely on food stamps and welfare .




What the fuck does that mean?  Should some breeder be paid more for the same work as a single person or a couple with no leeches?  Should it be more in NYC than in Idaho?  Pay rent on what, exactly?  A 500 sq ft studio in Manhattan for 2,000 or a 2 bedroom house in Binghamton for 800?

When companies don't pay their workers enough they quit and go work for somebody else who will pay more.  If they can get it.  If they can't they don't.  O well.

Do you know how to save taxpayer money on welfare and food stamps?  Make the fuckers work on municipal projects.  This will have the added benefit of cutting the nuts off of union no skill workers getting paid way beyond what their skills would ever command in a real market.

You don't give two shits about saving taxpayer money except to the extent that you would like to see more of it sent your way.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19031800 - 10/25/13 03:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

how do you define a living wage? I make $15 dollars an hour. Is that a living wage in your opinion? I'd barely get by in san francisco yet i would thrive and have more than enough in some of the cheaper areas in the country. So i ask you, what is a living wage? How can you norm the entire country into one catch all number?

And instead of creating regulation and forcing people to keep jobs here wouldn't it be better to simply make is more appealing to do business here? That would have the benefit of keeping jobs here AND attracting oversee's jobs.

And what no one seems to mention about those oversees jobs where people make a lot less is that the cost of living is extraordinarily low in places like india and china. Sure they make a lot less but it costs $90 a month in india to rent an apartment on average.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19031817 - 10/25/13 03:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Which is why we need more regulation to keep company's from sending jobs overseas for cheap labor.




Never going to happen, the profits are too high. I'm in favor of tariffs, but the R and D machine never even allows for debate on this subject.

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Minimum wage should also increase with inflation. $2-3 dollars an hour  in america would lead to a revolt. No one can survive on those wages here in America.




That is the economic reality, do you think working in China for .50 to $1.00 per hour is fun?  They do it, they have no choice.


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19031822 - 10/25/13 03:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I've never received  government assistance in my life. I bet you think that because I'm black.
It's just a simple truth that if your not being paid enough from your job to support your family, the only way for you to survive is to receive government assistance.  You can call those people all kinds of nasty things, but it is  beyond shameful to mock those less fortunate then yourself.  Only fools blame the poor for the worlds problems.


--------------------
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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19031829 - 10/25/13 03:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Alot of workers overseas actually make alot more than would if they had stayed on the small farms many of them left to get a better life in the city. Sure the wages our low for our standards but things also cost less overseas many of the workers are happy to provide for their family and become part the growing global middle class.


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: qman]
    #19031831 - 10/25/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Of corse they don't enjoy it. Why do you think they installed suicide nets on those Foxconn factories?
The cost of living in china however is allot less then in America.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420] * 1
    #19031903 - 10/25/13 04:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
I've never received  government assistance in my life. I bet you think that because I'm black.




You seem to be asking for it.
I had no idea that you were a Negro.  Don't really give a shit, either.  Panhandling bums are panhandling bums no matter what color they are
Quote:


It's just a simple truth that if your not being paid enough from your job to support your family, the only way for you to survive is to receive government assistance.  You can call those people all kinds of nasty things, but it is  beyond shameful to mock those less fortunate then yourself.  Only fools blame the poor for the worlds problems.




Are you intellectually incapable of answering the questions posed?.

In what way do you think I am "fortunate"?  Because I didn't have a shit load of babies?

Should the living wage be determined by how many children you have?


--------------------


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19031969 - 10/25/13 04:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
I've never received  government assistance in my life. I bet you think that because I'm black.




You seem to be asking for it.
I had no idea that you were a Negro.  Don't really give a shit, either.  Panhandling bums are panhandling bums no matter what color they are
Quote:


It's just a simple truth that if your not being paid enough from your job to support your family, the only way for you to survive is to receive government assistance.  You can call those people all kinds of nasty things, but it is  beyond shameful to mock those less fortunate then yourself.  Only fools blame the poor for the worlds problems.




Are you intellectually incapable of answering the questions posed?.

In what way do you think I am "fortunate"?  Because I didn't have a shit load of babies?

Should the living wage be determined by how many children you have?




I don't give serious answers to racist old men who think families should starve on the street.


--------------------
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Edited by Smokey420 (10/25/13 04:35 PM)


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19032007 - 10/25/13 04:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Of corse they don't enjoy it. Why do you think they installed suicide nets on those Foxconn factories?
The cost of living in china however is allot less then in America.



Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
I've never received  government assistance in my life. I bet you think that because I'm black.




You seem to be asking for it.
I had no idea that you were a Negro.  Don't really give a shit, either.  Panhandling bums are panhandling bums no matter what color they are
Quote:


It's just a simple truth that if your not being paid enough from your job to support your family, the only way for you to survive is to receive government assistance.  You can call those people all kinds of nasty things, but it is  beyond shameful to mock those less fortunate then yourself.  Only fools blame the poor for the worlds problems.




Are you intellectually incapable of answering the questions posed?.

In what way do you think I am "fortunate"?  Because I didn't have a shit load of babies?

Should the living wage be determined by how many children you have?




I don't give serious answers to racist old men who think families should starve on the street.



Do you agree that the national association of colored people is racist?


--------------------


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19032044 - 10/25/13 04:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'd rather not get into a race discussion with a bunch of white folks.  But I will answer your question . No. I do think BET is incredibly racist tho.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19032068 - 10/25/13 04:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
I'd rather not get into a race discussion with a bunch of white folks.  But I will answer your question . No. I do think BET is incredibly racist tho.



I agree that BET is pretty bad.


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19032081 - 10/25/13 04:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I will say that the NACP is far from perfect, and needs reform.


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OfflineTalesfromtheTrypt
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19032100 - 10/25/13 05:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
how do you define a living wage? I make $15 dollars an hour. Is that a living wage in your opinion? I'd barely get by in san francisco yet i would thrive and have more than enough in some of the cheaper areas in the country. So i ask you, what is a living wage? How can you norm the entire country into one catch all number?

And instead of creating regulation and forcing people to keep jobs here wouldn't it be better to simply make is more appealing to do business here? That would have the benefit of keeping jobs here AND attracting oversee's jobs.

And what no one seems to mention about those oversees jobs where people make a lot less is that the cost of living is extraordinarily low in places like india and china. Sure they make a lot less but it costs $90 a month in india to rent an apartment on average.




Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Alot of workers overseas actually make alot more than would if they had stayed on the small farms many of them left to get a better life in the city. Sure the wages our low for our standards but things also cost less overseas many of the workers are happy to provide for their family and become part the growing global middle class.




All this implies is that since a) companies will hire whoever they can pay the least, b) the ones who will accept the least pay have much lower standards of living than the developed world, then c) the only way to incentivize companies to stop hiring overseas workers is to incentivize American workers to accept the same pay rate as workers in India and China, therefore d) we must make the standard of living in the US as low as it is in India or China.

Oooor we can just at least regulate businesses from hiring overseas workers.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: TalesfromtheTrypt] * 1
    #19032555 - 10/25/13 06:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

OR we can achieve higher standards of living AND bring jobs back. There was a time in america where we paid the highest wages in the world yet were still a net exporter.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19032791 - 10/25/13 07:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
OR we can achieve higher standards of living AND bring jobs back. There was a time in america where we paid the highest wages in the world yet were still a net exporter.




Yes that is true, but large corporations also had smaller profit margins as a result.

The distribution of wealth has continued to accelerate to the top 1/10 of 1%, even more so since the financial collapse of 2008.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: qman]
    #19032844 - 10/25/13 07:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

interesting how throughout time the more government regulation we see the more income inequality we see...


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19032862 - 10/25/13 07:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
I've never received  government assistance in my life. I bet you think that because I'm black.




You seem to be asking for it.
I had no idea that you were a Negro.  Don't really give a shit, either.  Panhandling bums are panhandling bums no matter what color they are
Quote:


It's just a simple truth that if your not being paid enough from your job to support your family, the only way for you to survive is to receive government assistance.  You can call those people all kinds of nasty things, but it is  beyond shameful to mock those less fortunate then yourself.  Only fools blame the poor for the worlds problems.




Are you intellectually incapable of answering the questions posed?.

In what way do you think I am "fortunate"?  Because I didn't have a shit load of babies?

Should the living wage be determined by how many children you have?




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Offlineviktor
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19033170 - 10/25/13 09:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
interesting how throughout time the more government regulation we see the more income inequality we see...




So do you want income inequality or not?


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: viktor] * 1
    #19033310 - 10/25/13 09:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
interesting how throughout time the more government regulation we see the more income inequality we see...




So do you want income inequality or not?



i believe that a free market and less government intrusion will mean that prosperity will increase for everyone.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19033431 - 10/25/13 10:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

'Highley skilled jobs are leaving the country....they can do anything the US can"

I remember about 1990, they said the Japanese would spell an end to the US semiconductor industry, specifically computer/microprocessor innovation, by about 2010.

Hmmm....when I was in graduate school, 2 years past, in VLSI design, it was stated that Intel Corporation in the US was about 20~30 years ahead of any foreign competitor in semiconductor technology. 

Of course one reason is--that people in the US don't know--is that there are now high-tech resources and technologies that the US government forbids to be moved out, and the companies don't want to move them out either.

One example is wafer fabrication, the small gate-width processes aren't allowed to leave the US because the foreign countries will steal the tech.  Any technology that is shipped out of the country is near obsolete.

Its ridiculously easy to get a job if you have the right skill set.  It took me a month to find my current job.

I make some bank too.  Now, if you want to go ahead and work putting bolts on wheels, or sweeping floors--I'm NOT saying that all work is not dignified, because I respect someone who works hard at labor--don't expect your job to be safe, and don't expect to make money like a design engineer. 

Expect a salary that is commensurate with the demand for your skill set.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: viktor]
    #19036431 - 10/26/13 04:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
interesting how throughout time the more government regulation we see the more income inequality we see...




So do you want income inequality or not?



I want to stop gearing about it.  It's fucking stupid.  If Jamie Dimon makes less money you will not make more.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: viktor]
    #19038836 - 10/27/13 12:02 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
interesting how throughout time the more government regulation we see the more income inequality we see...




So do you want income inequality or not?





Name me one system that has had 'income equality'  That is a buzzword for a redistribution system where the only ones left rich are the elitists who run the show.

Where does 'income equality' end?  If they preach 'income equality' well fine.  I want a fucking jet plane like Obama, and be able to fly around to exotic golf course, take vacations when I want, and have movie stars and bands over to the house to jam while I party down.

If we have income equality, why can't I have the same thing that Obama has?  :smirk:


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19041594 - 10/27/13 04:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
interesting how throughout time the more government regulation we see the more income inequality we see...




So do you want income inequality or not?





Name me one system that has had 'income equality'  That is a buzzword for a redistribution system where the only ones left rich are the elitists who run the show.

Where does 'income equality' end?  If they preach 'income equality' well fine.  I want a fucking jet plane like Obama, and be able to fly around to exotic golf course, take vacations when I want, and have movie stars and bands over to the house to jam while I party down.

If we have income equality, why can't I have the same thing that Obama has?  :smirk:




You seem to be under the illusion that Obama is some kind of socialist that wants to redistribute the wealth... I really wish you were right, I might have actually voted for him. Your mind has become so dominated by right-wing propaganda that you honestly think that some liberal moderate backed by major banking, is a socialist. It's just ridiculous.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19041759 - 10/27/13 05:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Where were you when he said he wanted to spread the wealth around?  Your dishonesty is awesome.  Do you work for Jay Carney?


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19041792 - 10/27/13 05:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Where were you when he said he wanted to spread the wealth around?  Your dishonesty is awesome.  Do you work for Jay Carney?




What Obama says, and what he actually does in office are two completely different things. Just like the majority of every politician ever.
Not that i doubt he ever said "spread around the wealth" but more then likely you herd it taken of of context on some conservative talk show propaganda machine.
  Honestly all you have to do is look what the Socialist party of America has to say about him. They hate him, like every other socialist or communist should. He's a strong state capitalist that voted to bail out corporate America, and is a strong supporter of the military industrial complex, and Wall-street. His administration is stocked with chairmen of Goldman Sachs and Fannie Mae.  He's a huge capitalist, ask any socialist.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19041852 - 10/27/13 05:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The term state capitalist is an oxymoron.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Shins]
    #19041861 - 10/27/13 05:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)



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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420] * 1
    #19041890 - 10/27/13 06:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

he's a crony capitalist. Crony capitalism and free market capitalism are nearly the opposites of each other.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19041897 - 10/27/13 06:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
False.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/state+capitalism



it doesn't matter if it has a definition its still an oxymoron in a technical sense.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19041976 - 10/27/13 06:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Crony capitalism and state capitalism are basically the same thing. All capitalist societies evolve into state or crony capitalism; So I fail to see how it's an oxymoron.  Maybe when you refer to socialism, do you think you can be more precise too? Whenever you say socialism, I think you really mean Stalinism, or maybe any other bolshevik bullshit.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19041995 - 10/27/13 06:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

so·cial·ism
ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/Submit
noun
1.
a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19042057 - 10/27/13 06:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)



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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19042081 - 10/27/13 06:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

what is it about economic freedom and personal liberty that you despise so much? Thats a legitimate question by the way.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19042597 - 10/27/13 08:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Define freedom for me first. I think you have freedom confused with freedom to exploit others.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19042720 - 10/27/13 08:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'd just like to point this out again. When you don't pay someone enough to make ends meet doing their full-time job, their only option is welfare; costing Americans tax dollars. If you don't think people should receive welfare, the only two options are:
A) for that person to starve, or turn to crime.
B) for the company to take responsibility for paying their employees enough money to survive in the city they live in.

McDonald's tells employes to sign up for food stamps. 
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/10/24/mcdonald-s-employeehelplineadvisesfoodstampsnotwageincrease.html


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19042940 - 10/27/13 09:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

no one is forced to work anywhere. Besides as i've said before, not every single job is meant to provide a living wage, and why should they be forced to provide a living wage for jobs that don't deserve it? economic freedom, the ability to do what you want without government interference as long as you are not harming another individual. And no paying someone a small amount of money for a no skill job is not harming or exploiting them.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19043067 - 10/27/13 10:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The majority of people ARE FORCED to sell their souls to shitty minimum wage jobs. For hundreds of thousands of people, specifically those with a criminal record, a shitty minimum wage job is the only place that will hire you. That person is FORCED to work there, or be evicted from their home, and starve on the street. There is nothing voluntary about about that.
  the working class is forced to sell themselves into corporate slavery in order to survive and feed their family. The working class has zero "economic freedom" they are only as free as their class is permitted to be with their wages.  You're telling me that just because some job is easy, or mundane; that person who devotes all of their time to this job, does not deserve to make their rent. They do not deserve the ability to afford food. They do not deserve the right to have children. Said person is below you. You call that liberty? More like wage slavery.


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Edited by Smokey420 (10/27/13 10:19 PM)


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19043092 - 10/27/13 10:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

please show me where i said that they do not deserve to make rent or buy food?


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19043102 - 10/27/13 10:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Not all corporations are bad and some people choose to work at them and even make good wages.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19043109 - 10/27/13 10:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

When you said they deserve less then $7.25 an hour. Which is barley enough to scrap by.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19043125 - 10/27/13 10:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

some jobs aren't worth 7.25 an hour. Sorry thats just the truth of it. Tell me this, if there are two identical jobs, lets say pumping gas for customers at a gas station. And one of these jobs is held by a teenager still in high school. The other by a father with two kids. Assuming they are working identical hours, should they be paid the same amount? or should the parent get more money?


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19043134 - 10/27/13 10:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

People deserve whatever other people are willing to pay them no matter how low or high.  If you think you deserve a better wage sell yourself to other companies for more.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Shins]
    #19043141 - 10/27/13 10:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

or what if you start your own business and when you do the math it comes out to you making the equivalent of minimum wage. Is society exploiting you? I imagine this line of thinking is what leads to belief in entitlements and victimization


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19043173 - 10/27/13 10:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Where do you honestly think a CEO paying their employees minimum wage, is making minimum wage themselves?


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420] * 2
    #19043186 - 10/27/13 10:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

you seem to think all businesses are large multinational corporations. Most people in this country are employed by small business's where the owners do not make very much money.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19043222 - 10/27/13 10:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I know for a fact that the majority of people in this country are employed by major multinational corporations. Free market capitalism is exactly what makes it difficult for small company's to survive; because it puts less regulation on the company's that are huge multinational corporations. They are free to buy these smaller company's out and create a monopoly.  In a libertarian society, what keeps a company from creating a monopoly? While we're at it, what keeps a company from clear cutting the forest, or slacking on their oil rig safety?


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420] * 1
    #19043321 - 10/27/13 11:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I know for a fact that the majority of people in this country are employed by major multinational corporations


you should really stop lying

Small businesses employ 57% of the country's private workforce

http://www.businessinsider.com/facts-about-small-businesses-in-america-2011-8#small-businesses-employ-57-of-the-countrys-private-workforce-3
(its fact number 3)

and if a business owner decides to sell to another company thats none of your business. Monopolies are created through government intervention constructing barriers to entry. Natural monopolies just couldn't exist, there will always be competition.

Quote:

In a libertarian society, what keeps a company from creating a monopoly? While we're at it, what keeps a company from clear cutting the forest, or slacking on their oil rig safety?



what exactly do you think libertarianism is? It doesn't mean no regulation it just means a lot less of it. Certain environmental regulations would be one of the few.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19043380 - 10/27/13 11:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

There is Hadley enough regulation now, and you want less. More BP oil spills to come I guess. Fuck all those small business owners who rely on fish from the gulf for their lively hood.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420] * 3
    #19043398 - 10/27/13 11:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

are you fucking kidding me? we have incredible amounts of regulation in this country. I can't fucking drive down the road with lumber in the back of my truck without getting a permit first. And you are aware that the oil spill was due to a lack of enforcement on regulation right? We have plenty of regulation, the regulators are just all bought and paid for.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught] * 3
    #19043412 - 10/27/13 11:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

im gonna go out on a limb here and say that you don't have a whole lot of first hand business experience. When children can't operate a lemonade stand without getting permits and licensing, you have too much regulation


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19043456 - 10/27/13 11:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
are you fucking kidding me? we have incredible amounts of regulation in this country. I can't fucking drive down the road with lumber in the back of my truck without getting a permit first. And you are aware that the oil spill was due to a lack of enforcement on regulation right? We have plenty of regulation, the regulators are just all bought and paid for.




This first little rant has nothing to do with Environmental protection.
Your right about the second part, the inspectors are all bought out to stay  silent and write a good report. Same with most health inspectors to restaurants. I've worked for over 10 fast food chains and service restaurants in my day, and they're all disguising. Somehow always managed to get a 98-99% on their health grade. How do you suppose regulating less is going to fix any of this, it will just make it worse.    When it comes to carbon admissions and energy companies; we need MUCH more regulation. Did you forget that its scientifically proven that humans are changing the climate of the planet at a alarming rate?


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Edited by Smokey420 (10/28/13 12:42 AM)


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420] * 3
    #19043484 - 10/27/13 11:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

so excessive regulation isn't working. Therefore we should throw more regulation at it. what is it they say about insanity? And thats real mature of you, i hold a different opinion so you try to paint me as a climate change denier hahaha in case your reading comprehension skills aren't up to snuff i already said that we environmental regulation was one of the areas i did agree with.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19043528 - 10/28/13 12:04 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I've never herd a Libertarian say they wanted more environmental regulations. If you're the first that's great, but you're certainly the minority.
I don't necessarily think there should be more number of regulations. I Think there needs to be different regulations that more effectively deal with the corruption with in any given industry. I Think we need regulations that prevent CEOs from making ungodly amounts of cash, while their workers can hardly afford to pay their rent.  I also think we need laws which prevent these corporations from lobbying the goverment and getting laws passed in their favor.


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Edited by Smokey420 (10/28/13 12:06 AM)


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420] * 1
    #19043582 - 10/28/13 12:15 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

theres plenty of libertarians that think the environment is one of the few areas government should be a part of. CEO's should be able to make as much money as their company allows them to. And as far as lobbying a agree theres a problem. But my solution is just shrink the government, the less power there is the less power available for purchase.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420] * 1
    #19043590 - 10/28/13 12:16 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Its in a companies best interest to care about the environment the leftist scare tactics that they want a barren earth is simply false.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19043675 - 10/28/13 12:35 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Its in a companies best interest to care about the environment the leftist scare tactics that they want a barren earth is simply false.



If that's true, then why do we keep getting environmental disasters because of a company's negligence? Why do logging companies continue to clear cut the rain forest? Why do nuclear power company's build their plants close to fault lines? The list goes on here.. Profits come before everything in a free market.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420] * 1
    #19043694 - 10/28/13 12:41 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
I'd just like to point this out again. When you don't pay someone enough to make ends meet doing their full-time job, their only option is welfare




No, it isn't.  How about their option of going to school and learning a skill that pays more?  Or how about for young people, join the military?  Don't tell me 'people have no money for school' because their are all kinds of grants and loans, and a lot of people work doing shit jobs SO THEY CAN GO TO SCHOOL rather than give up and say the government/company owes them a living.

Quote:

Smokey420 said:

For the company to take responsibility for paying their employees enough money to survive in the city they live in.






The company doesn't have to even HIRE anyone, much less pay them enough to survive on.  Whose money is it?  THe companies.  Maybe its a small company, and the owner put all his own money into it.  What right does anyone have to say he shouldn't make too much money?  He took the risk with his money.  If you force companies to pay a lot they leave. 

Now, if you want to play that 'income equality game' OK.  Tell me why I shouldn't have all the perks and priviledges, as well as the salary, of the President?  After all, it isn't fair, he makes a lot more than me.  C'mon, tell me why I can't have what he has?


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19043776 - 10/28/13 01:04 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If everyone in the world could magically afford to go to college, and magically they all created their own business; who would work for them?
A capitalist society demands that there is someone for those mundane jobs.

Not everyone in poverty can afford to go to school, and the majority of them wind up in debt the rest of their life.  If they can't make enough money from their job, and they're denied welfare, they end up homeless . 44% of all homeless people are still employed, but they're forced to live under the highway, or in a tent. Hundreds of homeless die every winter in my city when the shelter cant fit anymore.  Maybe its too radical an idea for you squares to believe, but I think having  a job should be an escape from poverty.  I believe that it doesn't matter where you put in your 40 hours. You deserve to be treated like a human being. You deserve medicine when you're sick, because there are stockpiles of it in a warehouse. Just because some ass hole wants to make a profit on your sickness; You deserve to to be healthy. I believe in the wealthiest country in the world, it's a crime to let any child go hungry.

Shelter- Human Right.
Food and Water- Human Right.
Health Care- Human Right.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19043832 - 10/28/13 01:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"
i imagine you very much agree with a saying like this correct?


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19043847 - 10/28/13 01:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yes I do.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420] * 1
    #19043865 - 10/28/13 01:30 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

congratulations your a communist


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19043906 - 10/28/13 01:40 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Not really, technically I'm a Libertarian Syndicalist.
Did you really think i haven't read Marx tho, you going to trick me? lol.


If you're interested in what that means:


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19043948 - 10/28/13 01:56 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

you have no consistency in your argument. First you denounce libertarianism as absurd, then rally for more intense regulation, THEN claim to be part of a libertarian movement that rejects government entirely.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19043964 - 10/28/13 02:00 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
you have no consistency in your argument. First you denounce libertarianism as absurd, then rally for more intense regulation, THEN claim to be part of a libertarian movement that rejects government entirely.




False. I denounced capitalism as absurd. Also I never claimed regulations would be necessary in my ideal society, I was claiming it's importance with in a capitalist society.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19044098 - 10/28/13 02:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Smokey mate can you tell us more about libertarian syndicalism? I've never heard of it but what you're saying on this thread makes a lot of sense to me.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19044774 - 10/28/13 09:05 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
you have no consistency in your argument. First you denounce libertarianism as absurd, then rally for more intense regulation, THEN claim to be part of a libertarian movement that rejects government entirely.




False. I denounced capitalism as absurd. Also I never claimed regulations would be necessary in my ideal society, I was claiming it's importance with in a capitalist society.



The nature of capitalism is synonymous with freedom the more you limit a mans economic potential the more totalitarian your society will be.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19044810 - 10/28/13 09:18 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
If everyone in the world could magically afford to go to college, and magically they all created their own business; who would work for them?
A capitalist society demands that there is someone for those mundane jobs.

Not everyone in poverty can afford to go to school, and the majority of them wind up in debt the rest of their life.  If they can't make enough money from their job, and they're denied welfare, they end up homeless . 44% of all homeless people are still employed, but they're forced to live under the highway, or in a tent. Hundreds of homeless die every winter in my city when the shelter cant fit anymore.  Maybe its too radical an idea for you squares to believe, but I think having  a job should be an escape from poverty.  I believe that it doesn't matter where you put in your 40 hours. You deserve to be treated like a human being. You deserve medicine when you're sick, because there are stockpiles of it in a warehouse. Just because some ass hole wants to make a profit on your sickness; You deserve to to be healthy. I believe in the wealthiest country in the world, it's a crime to let any child go hungry.

Shelter- Human Right.
Food and Water- Human Right.
Health Care- Human Right.




You are mistaking 2 basic needs for rights.  And health care is neither a right nor basic human need.  It would be nice if everyone had it.

Who paid for the drugs in that warehouse?  You know a drug I am getting ready to take cost 11 Billion dollars to develop.  that's money up front by that company to pay for it, whether or not the ever make money on it.  Their risk, their loss.  And as far as I know, just about every drug available is available through special programs from the drug companies or foundations IF the drug is really needed.

But back to my previous question:  OK, not everyone has an opportunity to go to college so we need income equality.  OK, I didn't have money to go to harvard, and I couldn't get Equal Opportunity, so it isn't fair that the president makes more money than I.  Why shouldn't I get the same thing he does?  I think the answer is obvious.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19044827 - 10/28/13 09:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Where were you when he said he wanted to spread the wealth around?  Your dishonesty is awesome.  Do you work for Jay Carney?




What Obama says, and what he actually does in office are two completely different things. Just like the majority of every politician ever.
Not that i doubt he ever said "spread around the wealth" but more then likely you herd it taken of of context on some conservative talk show propaganda machine.
  Honestly all you have to do is look what the Socialist party of America has to say about him. They hate him, like every other socialist or communist should. He's a strong state capitalist that voted to bail out corporate America, and is a strong supporter of the military industrial complex, and Wall-street. His administration is stocked with chairmen of Goldman Sachs and Fannie Mae.  He's a huge capitalist, ask any socialist.




I agree, Obama might be a "socialist" in his true spirit, but he governs like a corporate capitalist.

True liberals really do despise Obama, how does the top 1/10 of !% increase their wealth by 20% and the bottom 99% lose a portion of their wealth during his tenure if he governs like a socialist?  He's bought and paid for, his true ideology is meaningless at the end of the day.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: qman]
    #19046617 - 10/28/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Where were you when he said he wanted to spread the wealth around?  Your dishonesty is awesome.  Do you work for Jay Carney?




What Obama says, and what he actually does in office are two completely different things. Just like the majority of every politician ever.
Not that i doubt he ever said "spread around the wealth" but more then likely you herd it taken of of context on some conservative talk show propaganda machine.
  Honestly all you have to do is look what the Socialist party of America has to say about him. They hate him, like every other socialist or communist should. He's a strong state capitalist that voted to bail out corporate America, and is a strong supporter of the military industrial complex, and Wall-street. His administration is stocked with chairmen of Goldman Sachs and Fannie Mae.  He's a huge capitalist, ask any socialist.




I agree, Obama might be a "socialist" in his true spirit, but he governs like a corporate capitalist.




Somewhat but he is also heavily socialist.  See ObamaCare. 
Quote:



True liberals really do despise Obama, how does the top 1/10 of !% increase their wealth by 20% and the bottom 99% lose a portion of their wealth during his tenure if he governs like a socialist?  He's bought and paid for, his true ideology is meaningless at the end of the day.




I don't want to break your heart but the top 1/10th of 1% is always going to win.  Whether they are capitalist Wall Streeters or communist apparatchiks.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19047817 - 10/28/13 06:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by EddYerb

Reason for deletion: Want to remove


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb] * 1
    #19047949 - 10/28/13 06:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EddYerb said:
It's crazy for me to read about political discussions by Americans. There's no where near the passion for politics in England, it's cool to see.

This is my two cents.. It seems to me that you guys are basically arguing about individualism vs communism.




Individual liberty versus the interests of the Kollektif, yes
Quote:



You're never going to agree unless you change your values you place on individual freedoms or social freedoms.




There is no such thing as social freedoms in opposition to individual freedoms.  The Kollektif only eliminates freedom.
Quote:



My personal view is communist. I believe that we are social animals and that community wealth and social mobility is more important than individual wealth, this community spreading to the entirety of humanity.




This has worked real well everywhere it has been implemented:facepalm:
Quote:


I believe that our current system is not the best that will ever exist, given a long time frame, and that it's idiotic to think otherwise.




What do you mean by "we" Kemosabe?  It is certainly better than what you want.  Not for nothing but I won't work at all unless I can keep a certain level of the fruits of my labor.  At some point you are going to have to march me to the fields at the point of a gun.  Like in N. Korea, etc.
Quote:


I believe a new system will arise once we either, realise that we have to have a circular economy in order to carry on producing goods, reach the technological ability to no longer have need for an underclass or survive an horrific and all encompassing World War. A complete social mindset revolution, without one of those external influences, will be an insanely long process, its effectively just a slow shift in attitudes, generation by generation. Until then I believe we will probably have to have our current system.

Our current system, like smokey has said, will ultimately result in widening wealth gaps, large scale pollution and degradation of valuable resources. It may take some time but that is clearly the direction it is currently headed.


  There is intrinsically nothing wrong with a wealth gap.  You will not get one nickel more if Jamie Dimon makes 10 million less.
Quote:



There effectively is nothing much to stop the richer getting richer - however - there is still government.




The government is a gun.  They are thugs.  They just take.
Quote:

[Theoretically; neutral, made up of a large number of community and politically interested citizens and chosen by the population they represent to stop injustices such as large scale unemployment, or starving populations as a work of unemployment or environmental catastrophes caused by drilling or mining companies.




Interference with capitalism is causing an inflation of unemployment numbers and deflation of workforce participation.  There  is no starvation in America and drilling and mining is the source of all human prosperity.  I do not wish to live like the Cree hunting buffalo.
Quote:



With the proposed libertarian capitalist system, this final barrier of resistance to injustices, incurred through profit making, is removed. Companies would be free to run amok. And where, in a capitalist system, money is effectively quantified power, corporations could gain huge influence over every aspect of our lives with little to no resistance.




In the capitalist system, if there is an injustice, you have access to the courts to sue for redress if you are wronged.  If you just suck you get nothing.  The simple fact that I make a shit ton more money than you does not constitute an injustice
Quote:




It also seems that you are arguing about it taking place just in America. I'm not entirely familiar with the semantics of  libertarian capitalism, but a military would be a necessity under the current world system. If America didn't have a big enough military it would almost certainly be attacked or invaded at some point.




There is no almost.  The US military protects a lot more than just the US.
Quote:



One final point is that I'm not 100% sure you know this basic fact of modern life:

Currently we can only live the way we do in the developed world as a result of exploitation. We must necessarily pay a large portion of world citizens tenfold less than is the value for their labour.

By arguing for libertarian capitalism you are also arguing for an underclass.




Not at all.  Capitalism does not require an underclass at all.  People who suck, suck.  Under capitalism those who suck receive the rewards commensurate to their contributions.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19048509 - 10/28/13 08:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The argument that there will be no regulation and that the companies will destroy everything is false.  If you notice, the housing bubble, Enron, The BP Oil Spill, Bernie Maddoff, indeed, almost every crisis we have had in the last 40 years is the result of 1) Government meddling and over-regulation and 2) Government regulators NOT doing their job. 

Like in the BP Oil spill the government regulators where jerking off to porn videos on the internet and pencil whipping the inspections.

The governments answer to everything is more government, more spending, and more regulations.  It ain't makin' it. 

No one is saying the needy shouldn't get assistance.  But when you have a huge percentage of the populace sucking on the Teat--no end in site--and the middle-upper middle class paying for it all, there is a problem.

the government people don't give a fuck they have their golden parachutes. 

The basic idea of libertarianism is Federalism--a small central government that has limited power, with the strength being at the state level.  this way people in the states have MUCH MORE SAY in how they are governed, and what benefits they get, without having 20 million poor people who believe the liberal class envy poop deciding laws for everyone else. 


A perfect example is drug law--some states would have legal drugs, some would not--without Federal government interference.  Or abortion.  Or gay marriage, the list goes on.  And the problem is the establishment on both sides have wiped their asses on the constitution to keep themselves in power and ram their polittical ideology up the asses of people in every state.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19050130 - 10/29/13 02:11 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by EddYerb

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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb] * 2
    #19050149 - 10/29/13 02:21 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Capitalism serves communities better than socialism ever possibly could.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: Shins]
    #19050213 - 10/29/13 02:59 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19050238 - 10/29/13 03:20 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

sure in a capitalist system some will end up being a wealthy elite. But the same happens in ALL SYSTEMS. At least with capitalism everyone is given an equal chance and equal opportunity, do know how many self made millionaires and billionaires there are? And with capitalism most people are better off and more wealthy. Capitalism is what made america the richest country on earth. Please show me one example of a wealth distribution system that has actually worked


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: psyconaught]
    #19050276 - 10/29/13 03:39 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19050344 - 10/29/13 04:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

What a classic, addled Utopian Pipe Dream!  The problem with what you say is that it does not take into account human nature, indeed, it doesn't take into account basic animal nature and survival of the fittest.

There will always be someone stronger, someone with more will, courage, ability, brains, who will find a way to take more no matter what system it is.  The law of the jungle applies to modern society. 

In a communistic based society it breaks down when the lazy begin to take advantage of it.  A perfect example is the 60's communes in the hippy era.  They worked for a while....then came the moochers and the criminals to fuck the young girls, use free dope and freeload off the communities.  Humans always have and always will behave this way and starry eyed visions of utopia aren't going to change human nature.  It is not going to happen.

You want a fair system that is based on community? Try how the plains indians of the US lived before they were destroyed by european culture. 

You know, I've been to 22 countries, and I've lived 12 years outside of the US, 4 years in Europe, 8 in Asia, and I'm not ready to leave the US for any of them.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19050353 - 10/29/13 04:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Fair enough, you're always going to have ties to your homeland.

I know that it's survival of the fittest at the moment, don't believe it always will be and I don't believe that it is human nature.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19051397 - 10/29/13 10:42 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EddYerb said:
Fair enough, you're always going to have ties to your homeland.

I know that it's survival of the fittest at the moment, don't believe it always will be and I don't believe that it is human nature.



Survival of the fittest is in our biology you can not change that. Capitalism is the only system that recognizes that humans are inherently selfish and utilizes that greed for a greater purpose. Your dreams of communism will fail when lazy scum get paid to do nothing your ideal society is a pipe dream.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19051424 - 10/29/13 10:51 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Where were you when he said he wanted to spread the wealth around?  Your dishonesty is awesome.  Do you work for Jay Carney?




What Obama says, and what he actually does in office are two completely different things. Just like the majority of every politician ever.
Not that i doubt he ever said "spread around the wealth" but more then likely you herd it taken of of context on some conservative talk show propaganda machine.
  Honestly all you have to do is look what the Socialist party of America has to say about him. They hate him, like every other socialist or communist should. He's a strong state capitalist that voted to bail out corporate America, and is a strong supporter of the military industrial complex, and Wall-street. His administration is stocked with chairmen of Goldman Sachs and Fannie Mae.  He's a huge capitalist, ask any socialist.




I agree, Obama might be a "socialist" in his true spirit, but he governs like a corporate capitalist.




Somewhat but he is also heavily socialist.  See ObamaCare. 
Quote:



True liberals really do despise Obama, how does the top 1/10 of !% increase their wealth by 20% and the bottom 99% lose a portion of their wealth during his tenure if he governs like a socialist?  He's bought and paid for, his true ideology is meaningless at the end of the day.




I don't want to break your heart but the top 1/10th of 1% is always going to win.  Whether they are capitalist Wall Streeters or communist apparatchiks.




"he is also heavily socialist. See Obamacare."

How is Obama care a socialist program?  The President is on TV begging people to BUY health insurance from "for profit" companies. 

"the top 1/10th of 1% is always going to win"

True, but the wealth gap has accelerated at a historic rate under this Presidents tenure, this is not common in recent US economic history.  During the 1940-70's, the reverse was happening, I would assume you would agree that era was one of the best in US economic history.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19051650 - 10/29/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by EddYerb

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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19051764 - 10/29/13 12:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Will there still be law enforcement?

How will laws be decided?

How will disputes be settled?

What will happen to publicly ran national parks etc.?





this is exactly why i started this thread. Dear god so many fucking misconceptions. I'll answer those questions simply and in order....

yes

by the government

courts

I still believe in public/national parks but they should by privately managed as they do a better job. There are a lot of parks in california and other places that have publicly owner parks with private companies managing them. And they are doing great.


Libertarianism IS NOT ANARCHY. There will still be law enforcement, courts, laws, parks, etc. It just means a smaller centralized government. Power would be given back to the local levels. Just like you were advocating for in your communist system.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19051784 - 10/29/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yea the range of the governments power would severely curtailed. The main idea is to leave people alone and let them pursue happiness without government restrictions impeding there progress.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19051882 - 10/29/13 12:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by EddYerb

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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19051896 - 10/29/13 01:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EddYerb said:
Well then we agree on some level, however I still don't see how decreased regulations of the market won't result in concentrations of power in the hands of a small few at the detriment to the majority.



The majority will have a higher standard of living and the ability to make something of themselves. Social mobility will be high both up and down making for a more flexible and efficient society.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb] * 1
    #19051909 - 10/29/13 01:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

let me ask you something. Isn't that whats happening now? Isn't power and wealth getting concentrated at the top? This has been accelerating as more government power/regulations/mandates get put into place. So what makes you think continuing doing the exact same thing will change anything at all? The bank bailouts gave government sponsorship to the baking elites, ObamaCare is giving government sponsorship to the insurance companies, they're making a killing out of this bill. Can you imagine how enraged people would be if a government mandate came out requiring everyone to shop at walmart? Or Ford? Capitalism gives more freedom of choice, allowing individuals to better serve themselves by having the ability to make money and vote with their dollars about what companies to support. And when individuals flourish the communities flourish


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OfflineEddYerb
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: psyconaught]
    #19051975 - 10/29/13 01:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by EddYerb

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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb] * 2
    #19052003 - 10/29/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I do not trust the market



This statement i think is the crux of your argument. in which case i will respond with a quote.

“A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.”
― Milton Friedman


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19052013 - 10/29/13 01:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

oh and i feel i should respond to this statement you made
Quote:

I don't know whether survival of the fittest is ingrained in our DNA or not, it is certainly how we came about, but there has always had to be a level of cooperation.




not only is survival of the fittest ingrained in our DNA but it is ingrained in the DNA of every single living organism. Its called evolution


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19052500 - 10/29/13 03:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

I do not trust the market



This statement i think is the crux of your argument. in which case i will respond with a quote.

“A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.”
― Milton Friedman



:kaneclap: Check and mate Eddyerb


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: qman] * 2
    #19052615 - 10/29/13 04:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:


What Obama says, and what he actually does in office are two completely different things. Just like the majority of every politician ever.
Not that i doubt he ever said "spread around the wealth" but more then likely you herd it taken of of context on some conservative talk show propaganda machine.
  Honestly all you have to do is look what the Socialist party of America has to say about him. They hate him, like every other socialist or communist should. He's a strong state capitalist that voted to bail out corporate America, and is a strong supporter of the military industrial complex, and Wall-street. His administration is stocked with chairmen of Goldman Sachs and Fannie Mae.  He's a huge capitalist, ask any socialist.




I agree, Obama might be a "socialist" in his true spirit, but he governs like a corporate capitalist.




Somewhat but he is also heavily socialist.  See ObamaCare. 
Quote:



True liberals really do despise Obama, how does the top 1/10 of !% increase their wealth by 20% and the bottom 99% lose a portion of their wealth during his tenure if he governs like a socialist?  He's bought and paid for, his true ideology is meaningless at the end of the day.




I don't want to break your heart but the top 1/10th of 1% is always going to win.  Whether they are capitalist Wall Streeters or communist apparatchiks.




"he is also heavily socialist. See Obamacare."

How is Obama care a socialist program?  The President is on TV begging people to BUY health insurance from "for profit" companies.



For profit companies whose profit he is restricting and so heavily regulating to such an extent that they are dropping individual plans all over country.  It has been estimated that over 80% of people on individual plans will be dropped and forced into government run plans.  This is my plight as of 12/31.  Heavily subsidized for losers.  Most of the people who are signing up are signing up for MedicAid and not the private insurance.  Large employers and unions (i.e. Kollektifs) have been granted waivers and delays.  His goal is total government control.
Quote:



"the top 1/10th of 1% is always going to win"

True, but the wealth gap has accelerated at a historic rate under this Presidents tenure, this is not common in recent US economic history.  During the 1940-70's, the reverse was happening, I would assume you would agree that era was one of the best in US economic history.




The US worker did great in the post war years because there was no competition.  Japan and Europe were devastated by war.  Russia and China similarly with the added burden of communism.  India was a total backwater shithole.  Still mostly is, as are Russia and China.  The American worker had no global competition due to factors entirely unrelated to his abilities.  Further there was the flooding of the workforce, beginning in the seventies, by millions and millions of women who had previously stayed home.  I am not saying that is a bad thing but it is nonetheless and increase in labor supply totally unrelated to demand.  Earnings for those not in the top 1/10th of 1% have not declined, they have been stagnant when adjusted for inflation.  Further, your buck buys more ease now than ever before.  When I was a kid air-conditioning was rare, dishwashers were almost non-existent, entertainment was limited and telephone service was expensive and limited to a wire in the wall.

There is not one shred of evidence that if Jamie Dimon makes less money anybody else will make more.  Further these people do not go out and buy a Cadillac the first chance they get nor do they have children they can't support or screw themselves into an alcohol or drug fog.  They don't go to jail for slugging somebody in a bar.  Losers are going to lose.  Mediocrities are going to be mediocre and stars are going to shine.  Get over it.  The earnings of the stars does not cost you a dime and they make me money and everybody I hire because they like to use elite trades.  I leave the construction of tract houses to others with no skill.  They bore me.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19052626 - 10/29/13 04:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EddYerb said:
Like I have said though,  America is the realisation of capitalism and it is significantly behind other socialist European states on many levels (healthcare, education, quality of life, happiness, social mobility). I think that our system at the moment is primitive, exploitative and inherently flawed, but believe that the regulation, when properly implemented, can help alleviate some of these problems and the problems stemming from the system.

I do not trust the market, there are very clear market failures (environmental damage, stifling of new technologies). I agree with your vision of the world but do not believe it will be realised how you anticipate it.

Is not modern America in fact the product of libertarian capitalistic ideals? It may start off functioning properly but eventually will be hijacked by certain powerful groups with the influence and power (read: money) to distort and contort the general public in a way that will benefit them.

It seems to me that libertarianism is not at all a bad idea. It is capital libertarianism that seems inherently flawed, and more so than our current system, the ideals I agree with, but I just cannot see how it would pan out practically.




America has not been truly capitalist for a hundred years.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: psyconaught]
    #19056620 - 10/30/13 08:59 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by EddYerb

Reason for deletion: Want to remove


Edited by EddYerb (10/30/13 12:00 PM)


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb] * 1
    #19056760 - 10/30/13 09:55 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

But it does not get to the bottom of why they desire these so much




Quote:

"gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want"




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Offlineqman
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19057656 - 10/30/13 01:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:


What Obama says, and what he actually does in office are two completely different things. Just like the majority of every politician ever.
Not that i doubt he ever said "spread around the wealth" but more then likely you herd it taken of of context on some conservative talk show propaganda machine.
  Honestly all you have to do is look what the Socialist party of America has to say about him. They hate him, like every other socialist or communist should. He's a strong state capitalist that voted to bail out corporate America, and is a strong supporter of the military industrial complex, and Wall-street. His administration is stocked with chairmen of Goldman Sachs and Fannie Mae.  He's a huge capitalist, ask any socialist.




I agree, Obama might be a "socialist" in his true spirit, but he governs like a corporate capitalist.




Somewhat but he is also heavily socialist.  See ObamaCare. 
Quote:



True liberals really do despise Obama, how does the top 1/10 of !% increase their wealth by 20% and the bottom 99% lose a portion of their wealth during his tenure if he governs like a socialist?  He's bought and paid for, his true ideology is meaningless at the end of the day.




I don't want to break your heart but the top 1/10th of 1% is always going to win.  Whether they are capitalist Wall Streeters or communist apparatchiks.




"he is also heavily socialist. See Obamacare."

How is Obama care a socialist program?  The President is on TV begging people to BUY health insurance from "for profit" companies.



For profit companies whose profit he is restricting and so heavily regulating to such an extent that they are dropping individual plans all over country.  It has been estimated that over 80% of people on individual plans will be dropped and forced into government run plans.  This is my plight as of 12/31.  Heavily subsidized for losers.  Most of the people who are signing up are signing up for MedicAid and not the private insurance.  Large employers and unions (i.e. Kollektifs) have been granted waivers and delays.  His goal is total government control.
Quote:



"the top 1/10th of 1% is always going to win"

True, but the wealth gap has accelerated at a historic rate under this Presidents tenure, this is not common in recent US economic history.  During the 1940-70's, the reverse was happening, I would assume you would agree that era was one of the best in US economic history.




The US worker did great in the post war years because there was no competition.  Japan and Europe were devastated by war.  Russia and China similarly with the added burden of communism.  India was a total backwater shithole.  Still mostly is, as are Russia and China.  The American worker had no global competition due to factors entirely unrelated to his abilities.  Further there was the flooding of the workforce, beginning in the seventies, by millions and millions of women who had previously stayed home.  I am not saying that is a bad thing but it is nonetheless and increase in labor supply totally unrelated to demand.  Earnings for those not in the top 1/10th of 1% have not declined, they have been stagnant when adjusted for inflation.  Further, your buck buys more ease now than ever before.  When I was a kid air-conditioning was rare, dishwashers were almost non-existent, entertainment was limited and telephone service was expensive and limited to a wire in the wall.

There is not one shred of evidence that if Jamie Dimon makes less money anybody else will make more.  Further these people do not go out and buy a Cadillac the first chance they get nor do they have children they can't support or screw themselves into an alcohol or drug fog.  They don't go to jail for slugging somebody in a bar.  Losers are going to lose.  Mediocrities are going to be mediocre and stars are going to shine.  Get over it.  The earnings of the stars does not cost you a dime and they make me money and everybody I hire because they like to use elite trades.  I leave the construction of tract houses to others with no skill.  They bore me.





"Earnings for those not in the top 1/10th of 1% have not declined, they have been stagnant when adjusted for inflation."

I disagree, if we eliminate the top 5%, real wages have declined and have really accelerated to the downside since 2000. http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/median-household-income-has-fallen-for-five-years-in-a-row

Higher rates of unemployment are proof of this fact, why pay more when you have a excess pool of unskilled and skilled workers?



Edited by qman (10/30/13 02:01 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: qman]
    #19058643 - 10/30/13 04:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Higher rates of unemployment right now (do not forget they were incredibly and deleteriously low in the early aughts) are pretty much a direct function of Obama policies after nearly 5 years of recovery.  It has nothing to do with Jamie Dimon's level of compensation.


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OfflineEddYerb
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19063148 - 10/31/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19063412 - 10/31/13 01:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EddYerb said:
Psychonaut, can you respond to my edited post at some point?

I've also got a few more questions.

How would a libertarian America work within the international system? Would protectionist subsidies be abolished (I assume so) and would all barriers to foreign trade be removed?

Would this then lead to a removal of labour barriers, effectively an opening of borders, or would the same immigration laws be upheld?

Would foreign imports be free of tariffs? If this is the case then what would happen to US agriculture (the current government seems to believe that a removal of these barriers would result in an end to a lot of US agriculture (e.g strawberries)?

What would happen to the thousands of jobless or homeless in your country? Would the state provide welfare?



i'll make sure to respond later. Very busy today so i don't have time. I will address the points thought I'm not trying to flake out of the argument.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19063990 - 10/31/13 03:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Libertarianism inasmuch as I follow has exactly zero impact on foreign policy.  Foreign policy is give no quarter, look out for yourself.  Libertarianism is not involved. It is a strictly domestic doctrine.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19064762 - 10/31/13 05:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19064820 - 10/31/13 05:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EddYerb said:
What do you mean? Give no quarter look out for yourself?




Yes.  Why should I give a fuck about the French?  They suck.
Quote:



I'm talking about US foreign policy, which is pretty extensive really. I.E. Trade tariffs, developmental aid, involvement with international organisations, security of resources etc.




Yeah, so?  What does that have to do with libertarianism?
Quote:



The international order is kind of 'give no quarter, look out for yourself' but at the same time it isn't at all. Aid mechanisms are pretty extensive, the EU plans on having 0.7% of GDP as designated foreign aid, and the US gave around $50 Billion in 2011. Also there are  alliances, both formal and informal, and an insane amount of international laws and treaties, which the US is quite often part of.




Yeah, so?  What does that have to do with libertarianism?
Quote:



The most important foreign policy issues would be related to tariffs on foreign goods. I would assume that a capitalist libertarian system would abolish tariffs and barriers to trade creating truly free trade between other countries. If this were to be the case though it would cause serious problems for certain US industries.




Only if they all do.  Absent that unicorn I will repeat;


"Yeah, so?  What does that have to do with libertarianism?"


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19064859 - 10/31/13 05:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19064939 - 10/31/13 05:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EddYerb said:
I don't know mate that's why I'm asking you......

What are your views on this, are you advocating adoption of capitalist libertarianism in your country? If so then would the continuation of current foreign policy be continued as it is?



:facepalm:

Libertarianism has nothing to do with foreign policy.  Libertarian capitalism is 100% internal.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19064973 - 10/31/13 06:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If libertatianism is a way of running and governing a country then it has everything to do with foreign policy. You want less regulation and less government control? Foreign policy is a necessary part of government requiring a large amount of government and regulation.
In a globalised economy you can't cut yourself off from the rest of the world without some serious implications to your country.

Maybe you should clarify what libertarianism is and the extent to which it would be administered.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19065055 - 10/31/13 06:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EddYerb said:
If libertatianism is a way of running and governing a country then it has everything to do with foreign policy. You want less regulation and less government control? Foreign policy is a necessary part of government requiring a large amount of government and regulation.
In a globalised economy you can't cut yourself off from the rest of the world without some serious implications to your country.

Maybe you should clarify what libertarianism is and the extent to which it would be administered.




I don't see libertarianism as a cutting off from the rest of the world.  I expect the rest of the world to act in what it perceives to be its best interest and we should interact with them in whatever manner we deem to be in our best interests whatever form that may take.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19066736 - 10/31/13 10:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Libertarianism is NOT associated with Isolationist policies.  It is associated with NON-Interventionist policies, i.e., staying the fuck out of other countries fights UNLESS they are directly threatening the US. 

Treaties and trade agreements will still be struck, but the country will protect itself from UNFAIR trade practices, i.e. dumping subsidized product on the US market at below cost to destroy the US industry and take control. 

This does not mean that tarriffs are placed on products just to protect certain workers--this drives the prices up of the particular product/commodity that is protected and invites retaliation from other countries.  US tried a protectionist/Isolationist type policy with the Smoot-Hawley tarriff act of 1930, which many economists consider one of the factors that deepened the US recession depression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley_Tariff_Act


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19071586 - 11/01/13 07:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EddYerb said:
If libertatianism is a way of running and governing a country then it has everything to do with foreign policy. You want less regulation and less government control? Foreign policy is a necessary part of government requiring a large amount of government and regulation.
In a globalised economy you can't cut yourself off from the rest of the world without some serious implications to your country.

Maybe you should clarify what libertarianism is and the extent to which it would be administered.



Libertarians believe in free trade. That is the opposite of isolationist, at least concerning economic policy.

Personally, I am even more libertarian than Libertarians. I would love to see the state disappear altogether. It is immoral and impractical.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19071653 - 11/01/13 07:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
Quote:

EddYerb said:
If libertatianism is a way of running and governing a country then it has everything to do with foreign policy. You want less regulation and less government control? Foreign policy is a necessary part of government requiring a large amount of government and regulation.
In a globalised economy you can't cut yourself off from the rest of the world without some serious implications to your country.

Maybe you should clarify what libertarianism is and the extent to which it would be administered.



Libertarians believe in free trade. That is the opposite of isolationist, at least concerning economic policy.

Personally, I am even more libertarian than Libertarians. I would love to see the state disappear altogether. It is immoral and impractical.



That is anarchist.  If you think the state is impractical wait until you become a slave of somebody like me if there's no government at all.


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19071782 - 11/01/13 07:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You could say I'm an anarchist. The term "libertarian" encompasses many different schools of thought. I do not belong to the Libertarian party, though I have respect for them and even voted Libertarian in the past. But if you are libertarian, why would you enslave me? Isn't that what we oppose?


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: MaxwellSmart] * 2
    #19071808 - 11/01/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You said you would love to see the state disappear altogether.  That is kinda the definition of anarchist. 

Why would I enslave you in a stateless world?  I would have to just out of self preservation.  No state, no law, red in tooth and claw.  Somebody is going to do it and I would much prefer that it be me.  You'd probably be happier as my slave than as a slave of some of the other nastier freakshows.


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19071863 - 11/01/13 07:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That's an odd line of thinking. Why is somebody going to enslave me? Why wouldn't I defend myself? And still, why would you want to enslave a person. I guess we have different reasons for being libertarian.

My own view is not based primarily on practicality, but morality. Slavery is always wrong.

The reason I don't always claim anarchism is that some people, particularly Europeans, have told me that I do not fit their definition of an anarchist.


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19071901 - 11/01/13 08:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
That's an odd line of thinking. Why is somebody going to enslave me? Why wouldn't I defend myself? And still, why would you want to enslave a person. I guess we have different reasons for being libertarian.




You aren't a libertarian.  You are an anarchist.  Do you think that you are organized and capable epough to resist an organized force?  And I can assure you that there will be many in an anarchy.
Quote:



My own view is not based primarily on practicality, but morality. Slavery is always wrong.




Yes, but it is only through a state that it is stopped.
Quote:



The reason I don't always claim anarchism is that some people, particularly Europeans, have told me that I do not fit their definition of an anarchist.




Why would you credit those morons?  If it wasn't for America they'd be Soviet slaves.  They have the luxury of smoking cigarettes in cafes while rough men from another country protect their right to be fatuous morons.


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State

Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19072067 - 11/01/13 08:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

You aren't a libertarian.  You are an anarchist.  Do you think that you are organized and capable epough to resist an organized force?  And I can assure you that there will be many in an anarchy.




I am not a Libertarian, but I am a libertarian. In Europe, "libertarians" are more like our "liberals", a term that used to mean in the U.S. what "libertarian" means to us today. So many people get hung up on labels. You can call me anarchist if you want.

I am against coercive monopolies but I am not against voluntary associations. I would like to live in a community of like minded libertarians who would not rob me and would help me if I needed it, as I would help them. I would also probably pay a protection or insurance firm to recover any losses. Anyone who commits an act of aggression would be dealt with by an arbitrating agency. That is, of course, if they did not die in the process of committing their crimes.

Quote:

Yes, but it is only through a state that it is stopped.



No. It is through the state that it is implemented.


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"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19072364 - 11/01/13 09:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:


Quote:

Yes, but it is only through a state that it is stopped.



No. It is through the state that it is implemented.




points for stefan moleneux! i love that guy


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Offlineapok
Electron wrangler


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 7
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19073171 - 11/02/13 12:56 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Just a quick post here. One thing is that without the individual there is no community. Another is that the Agora (or open marketplace) is what brings this communism and libertarian (little 'L') viewpoints into congruence without exploiting any of the participants.

Quote:

EddYerb said:
Can anyone explain to me what exactly this capitalist libertarian system will look like in the US (since this seems to be what you are all talking about) and how it will fit in with the larger world system.




Have you heard of the Free State Project? Or anarcho-capitalism? Think of anytime you were to buy chicken eggs from a friend or exchange some service you provide for those eggs. When most people make these sorts of transactions, they aren't reporting this as income to their respective governmental tax revenue agencies [read-IRS]. There was a CONSENTING exchange between two parties where BOTH parties benefit.

Quote:

EddYerb said:
Will there still be law enforcement?

How will laws be decided?

How will disputes be settled?





The people are the law enforcement. There would be private companies that you can pay to offer protection. Just like vehicle insurance. It is in the best interest for Protection Company A to provide timely and humane protection, else risk losing customers.

As for how will laws be decided, and disputes settled, this and pretty much all of the points above are laid out in The New Libertarian Manifesto which is REALLY just a way how Agorism could work. Granted, I think there are a few points in this document that I could do without or amend.


Quote:

EddYerb said:
What will happen to publicly ran national parks etc.?




According to many liberty-minded schools of thought, the idea is to give the land back to the original owners. This is one of the aspects I've fought with. Do you give it back to the original settlers? Do you give it back to the tribes that were once inhabiting the area? One argument is that whoever has 'improved' (that is, worked/maintained) the land are the 'rightful' owners. I'm still grappling with that.


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You can't kill what's stronger than death!


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Offlineapok
Electron wrangler


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 7
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19073236 - 11/02/13 01:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You aren't a libertarian.  You are an anarchist.  Do you think that you are organized and capable epough to resist an organized force?  And I can assure you that there will be many in an anarchy.




Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:My own view is not based primarily on practicality, but morality. Slavery is always wrong.




Yes, but it is only through a state that it is stopped.






I disagree. With the abolishment of the State, don't you think companies like Northrup Grumman, Lockheed Martin, LRAD, and all of the countless others, there will be ample resources (technology) available for defense? Not too mention our underground groups making our own tech?


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: apok]
    #19074204 - 11/02/13 09:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

apok said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You aren't a libertarian.  You are an anarchist.  Do you think that you are organized and capable epough to resist an organized force?  And I can assure you that there will be many in an anarchy.




Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:My own view is not based primarily on practicality, but morality. Slavery is always wrong.




Yes, but it is only through a state that it is stopped.






I disagree. With the abolishment of the State, don't you think companies like Northrup Grumman, Lockheed Martin, LRAD, and all of the countless others, there will be ample resources (technology) available for defense? Not too mention our underground groups making our own tech?



:rofl:

Available to who and to what end?


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Offlineapok
Electron wrangler


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 7
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19074628 - 11/02/13 11:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The point is that without State contracts these companies will rely on private sector to purchase their technologies. Any band or group of people hired to protect will be buying their techs. And you also underestimate the electronic-counter warfare the underground community posses.

That's how I'm seeing it.


--------------------
You can't kill what's stronger than death!


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: apok]
    #19074665 - 11/02/13 11:21 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Here's how I see it.  Some charismatic and organized strong man will come along and recruit a few hard men to his side promising them slaves and whores and that is what most people will become.  The tech nerds will be utterly fucked.


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Offlineapok
Electron wrangler


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 7
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19074681 - 11/02/13 11:25 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

HAHA! That's great  :biggrin:  My particular group of 'tech nerds' will never be utterly fucked. WE GOTZ DRONEZ BEOTCH!  :nyan:


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: apok]
    #19074689 - 11/02/13 11:28 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Sure you do.


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State

Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: apok] * 1
    #19074848 - 11/02/13 12:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

apok said:
The point is that without State contracts these companies will rely on private sector to purchase their technologies. Any band or group of people hired to protect will be buying their techs. And you also underestimate the electronic-counter warfare the underground community posses.

That's how I'm seeing it.



Right. And without state theft and war mongering, the need for these industries would be greatly reduced. War is a wealth destroying process. Not very profitable for private firms. Fraught with war, the last century has directly coincided with the existence of the currency creating Federal Reserve. A free society would focus on real defense only.


--------------------
"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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