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InvisibleGilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19022982 - 10/24/13 12:06 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power” -Benito Mussolini

This quote exactly describes the philosophy of Capitalist Libertarianism.



The power of the state is severely curtailed in libertarian philosophy not sure why corporate and state power would merge. One of the main tenants of libertarian philosophy is limited or no state interference in the market.


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19022986 - 10/24/13 12:07 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

no it doesnt. Not at all. Libertarianism seeks the complete opposite actually. By limiting the power of the government you limit the possibility for corporate influence, the less power that exists the less power there is available to take over


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Think for yourself, question authority


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Offlinepsilynut
aka Patchraper

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 1,244
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19023051 - 10/24/13 12:26 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

states that are badly run would have people leave the state,




California is already too crowded. Were talking about allot of states here. I want the Beverly hillbillies to stay where they are. Besides you can only have 10 bullets in your gun.


Quote:

state everyone will leave and they have an incentive to get their shit together.




First of all, poor people dont have money to leave.
If everyone leaves the people they elected wont have any tax revenue to run the state and get their shit together with.

Quote:

Mississippi would also have an incentive to be run more like a business and focus on profitability




Profitability out of poor people? Its the poorest state already. They dont have anything. How do you do that? Taking away federal aid might make it 3rd world.


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psilynut]
    #19023088 - 10/24/13 12:41 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

not everyone wants to live in california.

and thats bull shit. People need to take responsibility for themselves. I'm poor (due to recently graduating high school) and i can move anywhere i want, theres a way to get where you need to be.

and if tax revenue is dropping due to people leaving they the states will have to *gasp* cut spending! A strange and foreign concept no doubt.

profitability as in running the state efficiently and stop pork spending on useless shit. which no doubt there is loads of


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Think for yourself, question authority


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InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides


Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19023110 - 10/24/13 12:48 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Not everyone is 19 and fancy-free. And government is not meant to be a a business.


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Le_Canard]
    #19023135 - 10/24/13 12:59 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

and whatever situation a person is in they have no one to blame but themselves excluding extraneous circumstances. Which i promise in most cases, it is not.

no but governments should financially be run like a business


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InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides


Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19023155 - 10/24/13 01:09 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I think it's safe to say that I've seen a bit more of life than most folks here, and sometimes there are extenuating circumstances in life which can lead to unfortunate consequences. I find the incredible lack of empathy exhibited by most Libertarian rather appalling.


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Le_Canard]
    #19023214 - 10/24/13 01:33 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

of course there should be some form of welfare. At least in my opinion. I believe in a milton friedman esq. negative income tax


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InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides


Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19023298 - 10/24/13 02:09 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

In this we are in agreement. We should take care of of disabled and elderly.


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Offlineviktor
psychotechnician
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19024083 - 10/24/13 06:08 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

What I want to know is, what happens if we voted in the libertarian party, and then when the streets became full of sick, starving and diseased people we decided libertarianism sucked and was best suited for lizards and not human beings, could we go back to the way it is now (2013)?


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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OfflineSmokey420
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 1,057
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19024864 - 10/24/13 10:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power” -Benito Mussolini

This quote exactly describes the philosophy of Capitalist Libertarianism.



The power of the state is severely curtailed in libertarian philosophy not sure why corporate and state power would merge. One of the main tenants of libertarian philosophy is limited or no state interference in the market.




If there are no regulations on the market, then corporations would  become even more free to bribe or extort public officials. Essentially these corporations would have even more power then they do today. I'm sure this would also greatly increase the pollution of the planet, without regulation; history has shown us that corporations will disregard safety standards and pollute endlessly If it means an increase in profit. By de-regulating the private sector, you are essentially merging state and corporate power. Free Market Capitalism is Fascism no matter what costume you put on it.


--------------------
Workers of Shroomery Unite!

Warning: Everything I say is possibly a work of fiction.
Fuck you NSA


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19025032 - 10/24/13 11:14 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power” -Benito Mussolini

This quote exactly describes the philosophy of Capitalist Libertarianism.



The power of the state is severely curtailed in libertarian philosophy not sure why corporate and state power would merge. One of the main tenants of libertarian philosophy is limited or no state interference in the market.




If there are no regulations on the market, then corporations would  become even more free to bribe or extort public officials. Essentially these corporations would have even more power then they do today. I'm sure this would also greatly increase the pollution of the planet, without regulation; history has shown us that corporations will disregard safety standards and pollute endlessly If it means an increase in profit. By de-regulating the private sector, you are essentially merging state and corporate power. Free Market Capitalism is Fascism no matter what costume you put on it.



Again capitalism is not fascism, fascism is the coercion of free individuals to the state. Capitalism is voluntary transactions that no one is forced to participate in. Increase pollution hardly corporations have an incentive to make money and stay profitable destroying the planet is not profitable. Even logging companies plant trees cause guess what if they cut down all the trees they go out of business! If you do not like what a particular corporation is doing boycott them and tell others that is the essence of libertarian thinking. The government on the other hand has a monopoly on violence and theft aka taxes they are far more dangerous than businesses.


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OfflineSmokey420
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 1,057
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19026490 - 10/24/13 03:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power” -Benito Mussolini

This quote exactly describes the philosophy of Capitalist Libertarianism.



The power of the state is severely curtailed in libertarian philosophy not sure why corporate and state power would merge. One of the main tenants of libertarian philosophy is limited or no state interference in the market.




If there are no regulations on the market, then corporations would  become even more free to bribe or extort public officials. Essentially these corporations would have even more power then they do today. I'm sure this would also greatly increase the pollution of the planet, without regulation; history has shown us that corporations will disregard safety standards and pollute endlessly If it means an increase in profit. By de-regulating the private sector, you are essentially merging state and corporate power. Free Market Capitalism is Fascism no matter what costume you put on it.



Again capitalism is not fascism, fascism is the coercion of free individuals to the state. Capitalism is voluntary transactions that no one is forced to participate in. Increase pollution hardly corporations have an incentive to make money and stay profitable destroying the planet is not profitable. Even logging companies plant trees cause guess what if they cut down all the trees they go out of business! If you do not like what a particular corporation is doing boycott them and tell others that is the essence of libertarian thinking. The government on the other hand has a monopoly on violence and theft aka taxes they are far more dangerous than businesses.





While I'll agree that our taxes in America can be considred theft. The idea of taxation is not. Everyone in society should contribute to that society, it's called doing your part. And seriously, you think corporations have an incentive to not pollute? Have you been living under a rock? Exxon Valdez, Fukushima, The BP oil spill, clear cuting  in the rain forest, murder of indigenous tribes at the hand of shell. Corporations are destroying this planet as we speak, and they will continue to do so it means there is an increase in their profits. Because that's all corporations care about, profits. They will kill,
Pollute, and destroy people's lives in that pursuit. Profit is their only incentive, and money is their god.


--------------------
Workers of Shroomery Unite!

Warning: Everything I say is possibly a work of fiction.
Fuck you NSA


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19026641 - 10/24/13 04:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Smokey I agree some corporations are shady hence why I do not support them. I live in Portland oregon and get around by bicycle or on foot so I do not support these companies. I buy local because I care about the local economy. These entities only have as much power as we give them once there bottom line is hurt enough they will change. The state on the other seizes my wealth through taxation and redistributes it quite wastefully they are the real problem.


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OfflineTalesfromtheTrypt
The Tryptkeeper


Registered: 05/11/13
Posts: 284
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19026966 - 10/24/13 05:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The problem with that is most people won't stop buying a company's products due to environmental concerns, which leaves them open to doing whatever they want to maximize profitability. Remember the Cuyahoga River fire in '69? That's why the EPA was created, and due to their policies our rivers don't ignite any more. We obviously need some form of regulation to at least prevent companies from doing things like dumping whatever they want into our rivers. Once we accept that, the argument can then focus on the scope of regulations, or whether they should be handled by federal or state governments, and so forth. There are after all some things that we do need our representatives to do for us that are in our best interests. Just because we can't boycott a company into bankruptcy for polluting our water doesn't mean we should have to drink it.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
    #19026972 - 10/24/13 05:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Libertarian socialism, yes.
Libertarian capitalism, no.
The idea of a libertarian capitalist is an American phenomenon. It is laughed at in most countries, and comes very close to fascism.





Please tell me why I should give a fuck what some stupid losers think.  Noam Chomsky is a freakshow whackjob cunt who should have kept to his speciality.  Do you know who is laughed at?  Noam Chomsky


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psilynut]
    #19026982 - 10/24/13 05:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
Quote:

Libertarians think is up to the states to run the police and to collect taxes and money for the support of the state.




So what would happen to a state like Mississippi that receives  2.50 in federal aid for every dollar they pay in taxes? Whats worse than brokedick?
I know what would happen to my state since we pay 1 dollar and get 1 dollar. Im guessing in the other states that get more money than they pay taxes would have to be raised or just get used to things sucking more than they already do.




Or maybe they could be free to adjust their policies to succeed and their bums could all move to California.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Le_Canard] * 1
    #19026996 - 10/24/13 05:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
Not everyone is 19 and fancy-free. And government is not meant to be a a business.



Then why do the liberals keep stuffing it into business?


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OfflineSmokey420
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 1,057
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19027690 - 10/24/13 07:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Libertarian socialism, yes.
Libertarian capitalism, no.
The idea of a libertarian capitalist is an American phenomenon. It is laughed at in most countries, and comes very close to fascism.





Please tell me why I should give a fuck what some stupid losers think.  Noam Chomsky is a freakshow whackjob cunt who should have kept to his speciality.  Do you know who is laughed at?  Noam Chomsky



Noam Chomsky is allot smarter then both you, and myself. Did you even listen to what he had to say? I doubt you did.


--------------------
Workers of Shroomery Unite!

Warning: Everything I say is possibly a work of fiction.
Fuck you NSA


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420] * 1
    #19027744 - 10/24/13 07:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Noam Chomsky was an interesting linguistic theorist.  I have read him extensively for over 30 years.  Outside of that field he is a blithering idiot.


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