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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Why I'm not a libertarian * 1
    #2790601 - 06/13/04 08:24 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

submitted for your evaluation:

The libertarian party's primary ideological assumption is that individuals are the ones best equipped to make decisions. 

And yet the vast majority of individuals do not vote libertarian!

Now I'm not the type of person to say that what is popular is what is right, but I think in this case we have a clear example of ideology directly conflicting with reality.  Libertarianism's unpopularity is a testament to its own invalidity. 

If libertarianism is the best choice, then why aren't most people making it?  According to the ideological assumptions of libertarianism, they should be.  After all, the individual is the most capable of making the best decision, right?  And if the best decision is libertarianism than the majority of individuals should be voting libertarian, right?  And yet they aren't. 

If people won't voluntarily choose libertarianism, doesn't that invalidate its entire ideological basis?  What should we do?  Force libertarianism on people? :lol:  that would be kind of a contradiction, now wouldn't it?  But isn't the government enforcement of libertarian ideals on an unwilling populace the whole basis of the concept of a Republic, as opposed to a Democracy?

gee, this is all so confusing.  Maybe one of the smarter members here could explain it to me :lol:


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,208
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2790617 - 06/13/04 08:30 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The libertarian party's primary ideological assumption is that individuals are the ones best equipped to make decisions.

And yet the vast majority of individuals do not vote libertarian!




There is no corelation between the two. Substitute any party in your first sentence and the question remains the same.

Most people (IMO) never consider voting for any party other than what they were raised as.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2790630 - 06/13/04 08:38 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

There is no corelation between the two.




'corelation'?  do you even know what that word means?  :lol:  I wasn't implying a corelation, dude.  I was pointing out that observational data conflicted directly with libertarian ideological assumptions. 

Quote:

Substitute any party in your first sentence and the question remains the same.





not all parties are based in the assumption that individuals are the best equipped to make decisions, so your statement is incorrect. 

Quote:

Most people (IMO) never consider voting for any party other than what they were raised as.




are these the people you feel are best qualified to make decisions for themselves?


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2790631 - 06/13/04 08:39 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Your argument is very, very weak seeying as there are so many other factors at work. How about you refute some of the Libertarian platform and we'll work from there.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2790632 - 06/13/04 08:39 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Libertarians tend to be practical people. To the extent that each individual vote is barely a fart in the wind, that no Libertarian party candidate can win a major (House or Governor, that level) election, that outside of this community most people don't know the difference between a Libertarian and a libertine, I ask you, "Why waste a vote?" Pick the closest candidate who can win (i.e. make a difference). Anything else is masturbation, which is great fun but not, essentially, productive.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2790634 - 06/13/04 08:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

why not explain specifically why my arguement is weak, enumerating these 'factors' of which you speak, instead of expecting me to take it on faith that I am wrong and you are right?


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2790659 - 06/13/04 08:56 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

To the extent that each individual vote is barely a fart in the wind, that no Libertarian party candidate can win a major (House or Governor, that level) election, that outside of this community most people don't know the difference between a Libertarian and a libertine, I ask you, "Why waste a vote?" Pick the closest candidate who can win (i.e. make a difference). Anything else is masturbation, which is great fun but not, essentially, productive.




The wasted vote/lesser of two evils argument isn't viable if you believe that the Libertarian direction is the right one for America. Michael Badnarik, the Libertarian Presidential Nominee addressed that argument with this, "If you are on death row and you have a 50% chance of Lethal Injection, a 45% chance of the Electric Chair, and a 5% chance of escape, which do you take? If you vote for the lesser of two evils, you still wind up with evil."(Paraphrased) Libertarians aren't expecting to be embraced overnight, it is a very gradual process that revolves on getting the name and message out.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,208
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2790660 - 06/13/04 08:57 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I was pointing out that observational data conflicted directly with libertarian ideological assumptions.



Yet even if you didn't like my answer... you're still wrong. Just because Libertarians believe it is the individual who can decide what is best for themselves, that doesn't mean that all must agree with, understand or even realize there is a Libertarian party. I know of no Libertarian that would assume that everyone should automatically agree our philosophy is best. It, of course, is. Frankly, most people are idiots who wish to either have their dicks held while they piss, or wish to force others to hold the aforementioned dicks.


Quote:

not all parties are based in the assumption that individuals are the best equipped to make decisions, so your statement is incorrect.



Poor response on my part. I should have written that using your logic, that a philosophy held by one group should somehow be the philosophy held by all.


Quote:

are these the people you feel are best qualified to make decisions for themselves?



No. They are the sheep who make up the majority of the two major parties. They are the majority who should probably not vote at all.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2790672 - 06/13/04 09:03 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

libertarianism states that a particular individual is the only person capable or justified in choosing how he or she shall act. it does not state, but actually denies, that a person is capable or justified in determining how others shall act. the fact that most people, when given the opportunity, choose policies which infringe upon the rights of other people, does not invalidate this principle, but confirms it.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2790687 - 06/13/04 09:13 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Just because Libertarians believe it is the individual who can decide what is best for themselves, that doesn't mean that all must agree with, understand or even realize there is a Libertarian party.




but why do people voluntarily vote for fascists, communists and socialists if they are given a choice including libertarians? Is this not evidence that individuals tend to make poor decisions?

Quote:

No. They are the sheep who make up the majority of the two major parties. They are the majority who should probably not vote at all.





ummmm.... are you sure you're a libertarian? you're starting to sound like a fascist there.


--------------------
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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2790688 - 06/13/04 09:14 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
The libertarian party's primary ideological assumption is that individuals are the ones best equipped to make decisions.

And yet the vast majority of individuals do not vote libertarian!



Libertarians do not assume that individuals will automatically make the right decision. They ony assume that it is their right to make the right or wrong decision, and that it is their responsibility to face the consequences of that decision.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: ]
    #2790730 - 06/13/04 09:36 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

the fact that most people, when given the opportunity, choose policies which infringe upon the rights of other people, does not invalidate this principle, but confirms it




what about the people who, when given the opportunity, choose policies which infringe upon their own rights?

not to mention that most laws effect all people, and not just certain groups of people. There are no longer any laws that say that those of african american descent cannot vote, for example. But there are laws, popularly supported, that say that no one can choose to ingest marijuana into their own body.


--------------------
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Anonymous

Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2790812 - 06/13/04 10:13 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

what about the people who, when given the opportunity, choose policies which infringe upon their own rights?

you can't voluntarily have your rights infringed.

i don't think you understand the libertarian idea that individuals make the 'right' decision. they do, but what constitutes the 'right' decision is a subjective matter so long as the decision is not forced upon any person except the one making it.

when making decisions which will not be forced upon other people, individuals do make the right decision. when the outcome of their decision has the potential to be forced on other people, they might not.

people make all kinds of decisions. i think it's a bad decision to get a tattoo. others think it's a good one. there's no objective 'right' or 'wrong' about the decision though. it's a personal decision and everyone really makes the 'right' decision as far as tattooing goes.

the same cannot be said for decisions that are forced on others. everyone does not make the 'right' decision when it comes to ones that will be forced on others. somepeople make the wrong decision when it comes to stuff like: murder or don't murder? steal or don't steal? vote socialist or don't vote socialist?


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Anonymous

Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: ]
    #2790818 - 06/13/04 10:15 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

man i wish i were a better writer. hehe. i hope that's readable. goodnight.  :mushroom2:


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: silversoul7]
    #2790844 - 06/13/04 10:26 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Libertarians do not assume that individuals will automatically make the right decision.




well, first of all many libertarians on this board do seem to be of that opinion. What boggles my mind is that many of these same libertarians consider anyone who isn't a libertarian to be either stupid or ignorant... which would make most of the population stupid or ignorant... which would invalidate the assumption that most individuals are capable of making their own decisions, since stupid and ignorant people don't tend to be very good decision makers.

second all I wasn't trying to imply that most libertarians thought that the individual 'automatically makes the right decision'. I was implying that libertarians believe that the individual is more qualified vis a vis capability to make decisions than a selected group of individuals is qualified to make his decisions for him. And in many cases, though not all, they are wrong.

Quote:

They ony assume that it is their right to make the right or wrong decision, and that it is their responsibility to face the consequences of that decision.




their right? are these the same 'natural rights' which don't exist in nature, and have to be enforced by a deliberately established organization in order to be recognized?

as much as I would like to believe in rights, I must admit that they only exist in our minds. In a realistic, objective sense, there are no such things as rights, there are only capabilities.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: silversoul7]
    #2790871 - 06/13/04 10:36 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Libertarians do not assume that individuals will automatically make the right decision. They ony assume that it is their right to make the right or wrong decision, and that it is their responsibility to face the consequences of that decision.




Sounds like the human race there, we all have decisions to make and we must face the consequences for those decisions, isnt that the way things just work?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2790902 - 06/13/04 10:46 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Quote:

Libertarians do not assume that individuals will automatically make the right decision.




well, first of all many libertarians on this board do seem to be of that opinion. What boggles my mind is that many of these same libertarians consider anyone who isn't a libertarian to be either stupid or ignorant... which would make most of the population stupid or ignorant... which would invalidate the assumption that most individuals are capable of making their own decisions, since stupid and ignorant people don't tend to be very good decision makers.



What members are you talking about? I haven't seen any of this.

Quote:

second all I wasn't trying to imply that most libertarians thought that the individual 'automatically makes the right decision'. I was implying that libertarians believe that the individual is more qualified vis a vis capability to make decisions than a selected group of individuals is qualified to make his decisions for him. And in many cases, though not all, they are wrong.



They are more qualified to make the decisions that affect their own life. The fact that they may make bad decisions is irrelevant. They own themselves, therefore they have sovereignty over themselves. Any bad decisions they make with their lives are theirs to make and no one else's.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: silversoul7]
    #2790932 - 06/13/04 11:01 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

They are more qualified to make the decisions that affect their own life.




are they? What if I were to convince a 6 year old to eat a large quantity of LSD? I could tell him it was candy. According to your logic, that would be moral, because the kid made his own decision. He might have made his decision based on my deceptive advice, but hey thats his responsibility. He shouldn't have been so easily decieved.

Deception is the factor which fucks up libertarian logic. Because there can be a mutual exchange that isn't mutually amicable if deception is involved. Most people, both children and adults, are easily deceived. Does this not invalidate their decision-making ability?

Quote:

The fact that they may make bad decisions is irrelevant.




It is highly relevant to the survival and prosperity of our species, and possibly the survival of earth itself.

you can have your ideals and moral principles, I will stick to what works.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2790945 - 06/13/04 11:06 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Quote:

They are more qualified to make the decisions that affect their own life.




are they? What if I were to convince a 6 year old to eat a large quantity of LSD? I could tell him it was candy. According to your logic, that would be moral, because the kid made his own decision. He might have made his decision based on my deceptive advice, but hey thats his responsibility. He shouldn't have been so easily decieved.



Does convincing the kid to take the LSD affect only your life? Didn't think so. Besides, children that young are too young to give informed consent on something like that.

Quote:

Deception is the factor which fucks up libertarian logic.



No it isn't. Deception and fraud are considered initiation of force.

Quote:

Quote:

The fact that they may make bad decisions is irrelevant.




It is highly relevant to the survival and prosperity of our species, and possibly the survival of earth itself.

you can have your ideals and moral principles, I will stick to what works.



Like what?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2790949 - 06/13/04 11:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

>If people won't voluntarily choose libertarianism, doesn't that invalidate its entire ideological basis?
-I voluntarily choose libertarianism, does that validate its entire ideological basis?
Oh, and by the way... there is a big difference between equal and fair. I think people choose different politcal groups based on different interests.


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