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Smokey420



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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
#19027799 - 10/24/13 07:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Noam Chomsky was an interesting linguistic theorist. I have read him extensively for over 30 years. Outside of that field he is a blithering idiot.
why, because his politics differ from yours? I don't agree with everything he says; however, he's spot on in that video.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420] 1
#19027896 - 10/24/13 07:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Smokey420 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Noam Chomsky was an interesting linguistic theorist. I have read him extensively for over 30 years. Outside of that field he is a blithering idiot.
why, because his politics differ from yours? I don't agree with everything he says; however, he's spot on in that video.
Not because they differ from mine but because they are jejune and vacuous. I have seen better political arguments I disagree with put forth by Shroomerites.
I am not going to watch a video of Noam Chomsky. As I said I am extremely familiar with his writing and opinions.
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Smokey420



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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
#19028650 - 10/24/13 10:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Will, it's not like I'm going to convince you of anything Zappa. I suggest OP take a look at the video and see both sides before devoting yourself to the American Libertarian Party. I agree that the state is dangerous and oppressive; However, I am convinced that free market Capitalism, endorsed by American Libertarians, will lead to an even further damaged society. A society where profit is valued over all things, and the poor, the disabled, and the elderly will be even further neglected and left to starve. Without regulation, these corporate entities will mine, fish, and pollute until there is nothing left. Alternative forms of energy will never be developed, because corporations can't sell solar rays, and wind. Without regulations, the workplace in America will return to what it is in the third world: child labor, and unsafe working conditions will be the norm. Without the minimum wage, workers could make pennies a day for back breaking work.
Boycotting corporations that are supper shady is great in concept. But in reality, the majority of people are mindless sheep, they buy what they see on Tv, and matter how fucked up their practices are, they are never going out of business. There are better alternatives that oppose government oppression then libertarianism, which just replaces state oppression with corporate oppression.
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Edited by Smokey420 (10/24/13 10:16 PM)
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
#19028776 - 10/24/13 10:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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i do not devote myself to any political party. I agree with general libertarian ideals, small government, free market, etc.
alternative forms of energy absolutely would have been developed because theres a demand for it. People want solar panels so someone will provide solar panels, its as simple as that. And the minimum wage hurts poor and disadvantaged workers the most, it discriminates against low skilled workers.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
#19028899 - 10/24/13 11:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Smokey420 said: Alternative forms of energy will never be developed, because corporations can't sell solar rays, and wind. Without regulations, the workplace in America will return to what it is in the third world
yes, alternative forms of energy will be developed--just as soon as they are economically feasible. You don't think there are no big companies that are investing in research to develop clean energy sources? There are. And there are companies that are getting handouts from their buddies in Washington so they can pay their execs fat bonuses and then shutdown. Hmmm...who might that be (Solyandra? Fisker?)
And no one is saying zero regulations. You seem to think what the free-market people want is complete, lawless chaos--nothing could be further from the truth.
Ask yourself this: at what point are there enough regulations?
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Smokey420



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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
#19028908 - 10/24/13 11:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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The only reason solar energy has picked up is because of goverment subsidies. Without a minimum wage, poor and disadvantaged workers would be making what they make in the third world, dollars a day if they're lucky. If you knew a thing or two about labor history in this country, you would see minimum wage laws were won over by striking disadvantaged workers. Same as the weekend, child labor laws, work place safety, and the eight hour work day. But if you really want to work in factories like the ones in Bangladesh, where hundreds of people die every year from factory fires and building collapses, then keep pushing the good old American free market capitalism. Better yet, move to one of the third world counties that don't regulate business and see how you like it.
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starfire_xes
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
#19028945 - 10/24/13 11:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Smokey420 said: The only reason solar energy has picked up is because of goverment subsidies.
You mean all those solar companies that got government subsidies and then died out because they couldn't compete with China?
Amd who is advocating slave-labor sweat shops and sub-standard working conditions? You are making a huge leap from free-market to the idea that everyone wants slave labor.
Maybe everyone should wear grey suits and work at the collective factory, and then stand in line for loaves of bread. 
The only people that benefit from a central authoritarian, socialist government are the elitists who run the show. Everyone else is fucked.
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Smokey420



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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: starfire_xes]
#19028961 - 10/24/13 11:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Which is why i don't support, want, or endorse state communism or socialism. I'm not saying that you want slave labor; however, that is what free market capitalism evolves into. Profit over people.
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psyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
#19028987 - 10/24/13 11:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Smokey420 said: The only reason solar energy has picked up is because of goverment subsidies. Without a minimum wage, poor and disadvantaged workers would be making what they make in the third world, dollars a day if they're lucky. If you knew a thing or two about labor history in this country, you would see minimum wage laws were won over by striking disadvantaged workers. Same as the weekend, child labor laws, work place safety, and the eight hour work day. But if you really want to work in factories like the ones in Bangladesh, where hundreds of people die every year from factory fires and building collapses, then keep pushing the good old American free market capitalism. Better yet, move to one of the third world counties that don't regulate business and see how you like it.
you don't need the government to get any of the improvements your talking about (except minimum wage which shouldn't exist). You proved my point exactly, striking workers brought about change in the business place, if workers are valuable and go on strike then employers have an incentive to improve the conditions in order to get the valuable workers back. No government involvement needed.
The reason we shouldn't raise the minimum wage to $10 an hour is the same reason we shouldn't raise the minimum wage to $100 an hour.
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psyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
#19028992 - 10/24/13 11:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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and the reason people in third world countries work for pennies is because they are nearly worthless in a productivity sense. Wages arise out of productivity, not the other way around. A government mandate can't force everyone to put forth at least $10 an hour worth of productivity
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Smokey420



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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
#19029006 - 10/24/13 11:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Really? again you show your lacking knowledge of history. Those companies didn't want their workers back, they hired people who would do the job for half the price; and in the case of Blair Mountain, shoot and kill them, and their families.
http://www.pawv.org/news/blairhist.htm
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Smokey420



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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
#19029016 - 10/24/13 11:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said: and the reason people in third world countries work for pennies is because they are nearly worthless in a productivity sense. Wages arise out of productivity, not the other way around. A government mandate can't force everyone to put forth at least $10 an hour worth of productivity
Lack of productivity? I don't know if you know this but.. Almost everything that is sold in America is made in China with extremely cheap labor. They work for pennies because there is no laws against it.
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Edited by Smokey420 (10/24/13 11:44 PM)
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psyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
#19029024 - 10/24/13 11:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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are you really trying to argue that under libertarianism murder would be justified in retaliation to a strike
and if you read my post i said VALUABLE workers, if someone can do the job for half the price then the workers being replaced must not be very skilled right? Competition among companies is good so why is competition among the labor market not good?
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psyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
#19029028 - 10/24/13 11:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Smokey420 said:
Quote:
psyconaught said: and the reason people in third world countries work for pennies is because they are nearly worthless in a productivity sense. Wages arise out of productivity, not the other way around. A government mandate can't force everyone to put forth at least $10 an hour worth of productivity
Lack of productivity? I don't know if you know this but.. Almost everything that is sold in America is made in China with extremely cheap labor. They work for pennies because there is no laws against it.
and the reason so many things are made over there is because it takes the skill level of a monkey to create these things. A company is not getting $10 an hour worth of productivity by having someone pull a lever. Excessive government regulation hinders growth of the economy and innovation which makes us fall behind. Thus creating a situation where an impoverished chinese farmhand has the same level of skill as the average american
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Smokey420



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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
#19029029 - 10/24/13 11:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said: are you really trying to argue that under libertarianism murder would be justified in retaliation to a strike
and if you read my post i said VALUABLE workers, if someone can do the job for half the price then the workers being replaced must not be very skilled right? Competition among companies is good so why is competition among the labor market not good?
It has in the past, why not again? If we do not learn from history, we're doomed to have it repeat. Read about Blair Mountain, educate yourself.
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Smokey420



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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
#19029041 - 10/24/13 11:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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People who work for half the price, and become scabs do so because they're desperate. Most the time they're unskilled and the quality of work diminishes, not improves.
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psyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
#19029042 - 10/24/13 11:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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that situation had nothing to do with libertarianism so i'm not sure what your point is. In fact that situation arose out of corporate money buying politicians, something libertarianism is against
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psyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
#19029048 - 10/24/13 11:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Smokey420 said: People who work for half the price, and become scabs do so because they're desperate. Most the time they're unskilled and the quality of work diminishes, not improves.
and if the quality diminishes what happens? Either people move on to a company that produces better goods by hiring more skilled workers, or the company that produces shitty goods has to lower the price to stay competitive. Thus catering to a different market.
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Smokey420



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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
#19029067 - 10/25/13 12:02 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Not with libertarianism, but with free market capitalism. Back in that time, many minors would have considered themselves libertarians; however just like that word means something completely different in other countries, it meant something completely different back then too. Libertarianism is traditionally anti-capitalist. I would be willing to bet that there is not a single conservative who will believe it when I say the founding fathers were staunch anti-capitalists.
In fact, America was fundamentally opposed to capitalism, even republicans as late as Lincoln were opposed to what was known as wage slavery. They considered exchanging labor for wages a form of slavery. They saw little difference between buying people and renting them and felt the mill-workers should be the mill owners.
Capitalism shouldn't even be called an economy because it does the exact opposite of what an economy is supposed to do. Economize.
Capitalism is the most wasteful of all economic structures known to man. It requires cyclical consumption and continual expansion or it collapses It not only creates and rewards corruption and greed but stifles new ideas and technology while producing mass inequality. It forces us to concentrate on building wealth instead of a better society and leaves poverty and hunger in its wake.
It's not the fault of the banks, the corporations, Bush, Obama or the American people. It's the system that is at fault Exploitation is the core of capitalism and I think we can do better.
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psyconaught
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420]
#19029091 - 10/25/13 12:08 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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you are so completely out of tune and ill informed that i don't even know how to begin. How about this. Replace the word capitalism with communism/socialism in the post you just made and you'll be more accurate.
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