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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: silversoul7]
    #2791002 - 06/13/04 09:25 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Besides, children that young are too young to give informed consent on something like that.





so now you want to arbitrarily select and artificially enforce an age at which people's 'natural rights' are recognized? What makes you think that age is an accurate predictor of someone's cognitive ability? I know 12 year olds that are brilliant and 50 year olds that are dumb as a rock. So I think your criteria for ability to consent need to be adjusted.

Quote:

No it isn't. Deception and fraud are considered initiation of force.





so, most, if not all, of the advertising on television is an initiation of force? Including campaign ads? Is it an initiation of force for me to be talking to you right now? I could be effecting your opinion.

Quote:

Like what?




pragmatism. determining exactly what each individual capabilities are via objective assessment, and giving that individual just as much freedom as he is capable of handling, no more, no less. Effectively mobilizing our species will require the abilty to put the right people in the right positions. We cannot simply allow people to run amok, lord of the flies style. This will cause disaster. Which is why we have government in the first place. Its just too bad the primitive government we have now sucks so hard.
assessing

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2791008 - 06/13/04 09:27 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

-I voluntarily choose libertarianism, does that validate its entire ideological basis?





only to you and the people that agree with you. which is not many.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2791024 - 06/13/04 09:31 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Quote:

Besides, children that young are too young to give informed consent on something like that.





so now you want to arbitrarily select and artificially enforce an age at which people's 'natural rights' are recognized? What makes you think that age is an accurate predictor of someone's cognitive ability? I know 12 year olds that are brilliant and 50 year olds that are dumb as a rock. So I think your criteria for ability to consent need to be adjusted.



We've discussed this before. The age of consent for something is somewhat arbitrary, but the reason for doing so is not.

Quote:

Quote:

No it isn't. Deception and fraud are considered initiation of force.





so, most, if not all, of the advertising on television is an initiation of force? Including campaign ads? Is it an initiation of force for me to be talking to you right now? I could be effecting your opinion.



Perhaps I should rephrase that: Deception can be a means of inititiating force.

Quote:

Quote:

Like what?




pragmatism. determining exactly what each individual capabilities are via objective assessment, and giving that individual just as much freedom as he is capable of handling, no more, no less. Effectively mobilizing our species will require the abilty to put the right people in the right positions. We cannot simply allow people to run amok, lord of the flies style. This will cause disaster. Which is why we have government in the first place. Its just too bad the primitive government we have now sucks so hard.
assessing



And how would we determine who the "right people" are? Oh wait, let me guess--intelligence. Sounds a lot like the "philosopher kings" in Plato's Republic. Let me clue you in on something: One of the most intelligent presidents the U.S. ever had was Herbert Hoover, and I think we all know how that turned out.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: silversoul7]
    #2791052 - 06/13/04 09:40 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

not intelligence.

merit.

intelligence can contribute to merit, but it does not define it.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2791062 - 06/13/04 09:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

And how do you define merit? Here's how I define it: The desire to intervene in other people's lives as little as is necessary to keep the peace.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: silversoul7]
    #2791087 - 06/13/04 09:54 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I would define it as 'the capability of an individual to do things which facilitate the survival and prosperity of conscious life'

everyone has the capability to do something for the world. whether its digging ditches or designing rockets. the aim of government should be to put the right people in the right positions and allow them to sustain themselves via the positive things they do for humanity.

each person should be alloted only the rights he is capable of handling. Because some people are capable of responsibly handling more freedom than others. For example: some people cannot take LSD without freaking out and hurting themselves or others. But some people can take LSD and never dream of doing anything remotely negative. Obviously, the people who can't handle LSD shouldn't be allowed to ingest it. But the people who can handle LSD should not be penalized for others' lack of that ability.

we need to abandone these blanket laws and start assessing each individual's capability, and clearing certain people for certain things.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2791092 - 06/13/04 09:56 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Sounds awfully close to fascism to me.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: silversoul7]
    #2791107 - 06/13/04 10:00 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

meritocracy is a compromise between libertarianism and fascism.  To a libertarian it would seem fascist, and to a fascist, it would seem libertarian. 

nobody likes me :frown:
:lol:

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2791119 - 06/13/04 10:03 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Any way you slice it, it requires an awful lot of interference in people's lives. Way more than exists today in America, or even in socialist countries in Europe.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: silversoul7]
    #2791147 - 06/13/04 10:11 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

maybe interference. nut not necessarily negative.

would it be negative interference in your life if the government assessed your capabilities objectively on a regular basis and unlocked rights as you earned the capability to wield them responsibly?

would it be negative interference if that assessment allowed you to get employment that matched your abilities and desires as much as possible?

would it be negative interference if the government prevented others from infringing upon the rights that you have earned via capability?

would it be negative interference if the government disallowed people from doing things that they are not capable of doing without fucking shit up for themselves and others?

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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2791178 - 06/13/04 10:23 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
maybe interference. nut not necessarily negative.

would it be negative interference in your life if the government assessed your capabilities objectively on a regular basis and unlocked rights as you earned the capability to wield them responsibly?

would it be negative interference if that assessment allowed you to get employment that matched your abilities and desires as much as possible?

would it be negative interference if the government prevented others from infringing upon the rights that you have earned via capability?

would it be negative interference if the government disallowed people from doing things that they are not capable of doing without fucking shit up for themselves and others?



Yes on all counts. Do you really trust the government (meaning any government) to tell you what you are and are not capable of handling? If you do how exactly do they go about making those decisions without grinding our economy to a halt?


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2791184 - 06/13/04 10:24 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I take back my earlier statement. This sounds more like communism than fascism.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: z@z.com]
    #2791196 - 06/13/04 10:28 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Do you really trust the government (meaning any government) to tell you what you are and are not capable of handling?




not currently. but possibly sometime in the future. we are very close to being able to assess an individual's capabilities in most aspects of life quite accurately. The physical realm is easy because its just a matter of taking measurements. How fast can someone run, how much weight can someone lift. Physical capabilities are easy to assess. Mental capabilities are the toughie. But the problem is being worked on and the solution is emminent. Once we have objective, accurate means of classifying and measuring an individual's intellectual capabilities, I believe that a meritocracy will be possible and desirable.

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: silversoul7]
    #2791201 - 06/13/04 10:28 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

it contains elements of all isms. thats why ideological purists hate it.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2791230 - 06/13/04 10:33 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
it contains elements of all isms. thats why ideological purists hate it.



As well as realists. For someone who claims to be a pragmatist, your idea doesn't sound pragmatically feasible.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2791234 - 06/13/04 10:34 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I'm sure the power to control people will never be abused either. That could never happen because government is good and just wants what is best for all of us.

:lol:


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: silversoul7]
    #2791236 - 06/13/04 10:35 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

don't tell me about realism, Mr. 'Lets let everyone do whatever they want and everything will be just peachy'

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2791239 - 06/13/04 10:36 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
don't tell me about realism, Mr. 'Lets let everyone do whatever they want and everything will be just peachy'



I never said everything will be just peachy. It would be just, however, if people could make decisions of how to live their own lives(assuming it doesn't involve initiation of force against others), as opposed to some government asshole deciding what's best for them.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: z@z.com]
    #2791255 - 06/13/04 10:41 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

z@z.com said:
I'm sure the power to control people will never be abused either. That could never happen because government is good and just wants what is best for all of us.

:lol:




a government composed of the right people would want what was best for everyone.  Therefore, the process of building the best government is a process of putting the right people in the right positions.  How do you determine what is 'right'?  science, of course.  I think the scientific method would work a little better than the elective method.  Do you think the politicians which the people of this country have voluntarily elected are doing a good job?  :lol:  If you think they arent doing a good job, who's fault is that?  theirs, or the people who put them there? 

isolate 'the government' from yourself and blame it all you want.  it will accomplish nothing.  the government is run by and composed of individuals which have been voluntarily elected by the same individuals you claim are so good at making the right decisions.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2791259 - 06/13/04 10:43 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Read 1984 plz. kthxbye


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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