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Anonymous

Re: What are Libertarian ideals/views? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1877143 - 09/03/03 10:56 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

libertarians aren't completely opposed to all tax... some are, sure, but not all.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What are Libertarian ideals/views? [Re: ]
    #1877149 - 09/03/03 11:02 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting. I thought it was part of libertarian ideology. Well, if they're reasonable to at least recognize the necessity of taxes to keep society functioning, then I suppose it's not so impractical. I personally would have no problem with the Georgist proposal.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: What are Libertarian ideals/views? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1877151 - 09/03/03 11:03 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

i like the georgist one too.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: What are Libertarian ideals/views? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1877156 - 09/03/03 11:05 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Sso you're operating under the (incorrect) assumption there would be no taxes? Don't you get tired of being wrong?

Tell you what, since you don't seem willing or able to look for yourself, here you go, straight from the web site of the libertarian party.

Next time, do your homework before making such a foolish statement.







Taxes Are the Issue

By Tonie Nathan
Political advisors often talk about the necessity for candidates to emphasize "bread and butter" issues. In layman's language, they mean they want their candidates to deal with issues that affect their constituents' pocketbooks and well-being -- those issues that affect voters personally. There is no issue that better fills that requirement than a tax issue.

We libertarians need to reach as many voters as possible. However, except under unusual circumstances, we are unlikely to capture voters' attention with discussions of special interest legislation such as women's rights, gun control, drug laws, etc. Only tax laws affect almost every special interest group sufficiently to capture its attention. From the minimum wage earner to the corporation president, from gay rights groups to gun lobbyists, taxes are a concern. For this reason, it is important for potential libertarian candidates to give careful and serious thought to how to handle tax issues.

I have campaigned four times. I think I have learned a lot, sometimes by trial and error, about being effective in stating my ideas. Campaigning nationally as the LP's first vice presidential candidate, then on a statewide level, then in a congressional district, and door-to-door in a county commissioner race, I honed my skills in discussing the issues. Increasingly I found that two principles stand out in guiding my approach to every question and have been the most helpful in dealing with any issue, including tax issues:


On any issue, start where they are and lead them to where you are.
Ask yourself how you can solve the problem presented without using government or public funds.
When discussing a tax measure, decide if the net effect of the measure will be to increase government revenue. If it is, we libertarians must oppose it, even though the proposed tax is for attractive and necessary programs such as economic development, new libraries, school improvements, roads, parks, etc.

Using my first principle, a candidate can usually agree that the program is necessary or worthwhile. ("Yes, I agree with you that our roads are in need of repair.") Then immediately point out that the proposed tax doesn't provide any additional revenue for road repair; the tax just changes the decision-making power. The person earning the money gives up his/her right to decide how or where his/her money will be spent and turns that power over to a bureaucrat.

In cannot overstress the above point. If you can persuade your listeners to recognize that taxes do not add to the wealth of the nation but instead deplete its wealth, you will be changing viewpoints in a very fundamental way. For some reason, most people act as if government has a separate source of money which only has to be doled out to the right people for the right things. We need to point out continually that all the nation's wealth is created in the private sector and that the more funds are removed from the private sector to the public sector, the less wealth is created for use by anyone -- including government. Most people know this, but don't like to admit it, possibly because they fear losing their place at the public trough.

The next question is sure to be, "But if this tax should be defeated, who will repair the road?" Or "who will pay for education?" Or "...?" Here is where you use the second principle.

I usually state the principle first by saying that we libertarians know, as most people do, that government is very inefficient and wasteful in providing any kind of service, so we like to find ways to solve social problems without resorting to taxing the public. I would then qualify my remarks by stating that, although we libertarians oppose all taxes in principle, being reasonable people, we don't expect government to privatize everything overnight. So we try to find ways of reducing taxes by providing alternative solutions.

At this point you must have some good examples of private road building, private planning, private education, on hand. (See "Fiscal Watchdog," 1018 Garden St., Santa Barbara, CA 93101, for many useful references.) But don't be afraid to come up with your own creative solutions. ("After all, people who use the road want it in good repair, don't they? Perhaps the property owners along the roadway could get together and hire a road repair crew. That's all the government does anyway; it solicits bids. The problem is that many times the repair contracts are awarded as political favors to contractors who satisfy only the bureaucrats, not us. Wouldn't taxpayers be better off making their own spending decisions?")

You'll notice I ask lots of rhetorical questions. It stimulates the questioner to consider my argument. Many times I am amazed at the affirmative responses I get in the form of stories about waste and inefficiency. I always pull out a notebook and take these down to use at subsequent meetings with the permission of the storyteller. It is flattering to the storyteller and useful to me.

Some tax issues are not tax increases, but rather tax switches. A sales tax is increased to reduce an income tax or property tax. Or a tax can be distributed or levied in new or different ways. Libertarians may differ on the approval or disapproval of such tax proposals, but if the net effect of such a proposal is more equitable and lessens the cost and extent of the tax, I believe it is possible to support it. However, one should be sure that a new bureaucracy is not being created and that the overall effect of the proposal is either less tax or less control. I must confess I have yet to find such a tax proposal (with the possible exception of a flat tax). All tax switch proposals I have encountered increase the power or the cost of government or lessen an individual's control over his/her income.

While most Libertarian Party candidates have their own approaches to tax issues, I think it is important to constantly reiterate the aforementioned argument that any increase in government revenue is produced by a transfer of money from the productive private sector into the non-productive public sector. No new money is being created, but the less money the private sector has, the less it can invest to produce goods, jobs, and services, and the more control the government has over all of us. Further, the cost involved in collecting and redistributing taxes reduces the amount of funding available for the particular program for which the tax was designed.

In short, taxes do not provide anything that cannot be provided better and less expensively, without coercion, in the private sector. The constant reiteration of this point avoids discussing the tax measure itself and there is no reason why it should be discussed. No matter what it proposes to do, or how it proposes to do it, any tax measure can be opposed by the above arguments alone.

It is tempting to take the position of tax resisters who remind us that the best way of doing away with government excesses is not to fund fund government. However, this is an argument for libertarians, and is not calculated to win votes from those who are still striving to pay their "fair share" for services they deem desirable and who regard tax resisters as "cheaters."

Put yourself on the side of those who sincerely desire better roads, schools, and health care and then show them how to obtain their goals without tax levies. Thanks to numerous libertarian writers, periodicals, and books, there is now an increasing acceptance of privatization as a way of supplanting new tax and bond proposals. Discussing such libertarian solutions to tax issues will enable our candidates to provide hope and encouragement to an overtaxed populace.

Tonie Nathan, former national LP candidate for Vice President of the United States, was the first woman to receive an electoral college vote. She is a freelance writer who is active in the politics of Lane County, OR.



http://www.lp.org/lpn/8602-tax.html


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: What are Libertarian ideals/views? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1877175 - 09/03/03 11:15 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Try reading this.

EDIT: Actually, here's a link to the issues page


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What are Libertarian ideals/views? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1877215 - 09/03/03 11:34 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

From that page:
Quote:

Instead of tending to the basics, government has grown into a bloated conglomerate of political services that gets larger every year -- with no end in sight.

For example, politicians spend millions of dollars to urge people not to smoke -- while spending more millions to subsidize tobacco farmers. They send billions overseas for foreign aid -- while the federal deficit swells. They spend millions to subsidize public art -- while working families struggle to pay their taxes.

Politicians also run trains, bail out savings and loans, construct houses, sell insurance, print books, and build basketball courts -- you name it! But the fact is, every service supplied by the government can be provided better and cheaper by private business.




I admit, many of those things they mention are things we could do without. But that last sentence is hyperbole. There are some things that are just not wise to leave in private hands.

For example, there was a time when there were private fire departments. People would sign up with a particular fire department like they would an insurance company, and would have an emblem they put on the side of the house to let the fire department know they were registered with them. The fire department would put out the fire in that house, but if neighboring houses caught fire, and weren't registered with them, they'd just let it burn to the ground.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: What are Libertarian ideals/views? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1877222 - 09/03/03 11:36 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I've never seen that sentence proven wrong. The feds could, and do, fuck up everything they get involved in.

Government should be so small as to be almost un-noticeable.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Anonymous

Re: What are Libertarian ideals/views? [Re: FileSoup]
    #1877225 - 09/03/03 11:38 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

libertarianism is a political philosophy based on a fairly simple concept. that concept is liberty, liberty being defined something like: the freedom to be free from coersion unless one first initiates coersion. basically, if you are a peaceful individual, and do not forcefully infringe upon others, you should be guaranteed the freedom to do whatever you wish and be free from force.

recognizing that government = force, libertarians favor extremely limited governmental intrusion into the lives of citizens... the only rightful place of government (force) is in defense from force.

this philosophy comes from the writings of john locke, and was a philosophy on many of the mens' minds who founded this nation. locke is actually referred to by name in some of their writings and correspondances.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What are Libertarian ideals/views? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1877229 - 09/03/03 11:39 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

But they should be at least big enough that you don't notice something missing(you don't want unpaved roads, unpayed police forces, etc.)


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: What are Libertarian ideals/views? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1877231 - 09/03/03 11:40 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

"The best type of government is one of whose existence the people are barely aware"

- Lao Tzu

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: What are Libertarian ideals/views? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1877248 - 09/03/03 11:45 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Where have you ever seen me say I don't want paved roads and no police?

Those are two of the legitimate functions of government. Add to those basics like defense, and maybe one or two more which escape me right now.... and that's it.

The Feds should not be involved in....
social security, welfare, medicare, schools
subsidies for farming, art, corporations, foreign aid
drugs laws, and more than I have the time or desire to list.

As small a government as possible.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What are Libertarian ideals/views? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1877262 - 09/03/03 11:49 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Feds should not be involved in....
social security, welfare, medicare, schools
subsidies for farming, art, corporations, foreign aid
drugs laws, and more than I have the time or desire to list.




Fine, as long as at least the State governments are involved in the first four things you mentioned--especially the fourth one. I don't trust private schools to handle every child in the U.S. I also think the government should get involved with corporations to the extent that they prevent monopolies and pollution.


--------------------


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Re: What are Libertarian ideals/views? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1877301 - 09/03/03 12:05 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

While my bitch is basically with the feds..... most of those are no place for the states either, except possibly schools.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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