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InvisiblePapaverS
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2811241 - 06/20/04 01:10 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Driving an SUV is an initiation of force against anyone else not driving an SUV.

There I said it.

No really, it is.

SUV's are very unsafe for other people who don't have them. Driving an SUV increases other people's risk of bodily harm without their consent.




I actually think there is a lot of merit to that statement. In my own humble personal opinion, for most people, driving an SUV is an act of social rudeness. It seems to amount to a self-centered ignorance of the those around you. In the delicate dance of social interaction, it is the equivalent of stepping on a lot of toes.

Although, modern automobile transportation, in general, is like that. I drove into town the other day, and I am always amazed out how rude and inattentive people are. Driving is a huge social interaction -- it's like a great dance -- it's really a time to look, listen, and be thoughtful, and it's amazing how many people simply shut themselves off to the experience, in their cars with their radios blaring, and proceed to act like selfish, clumsy, lummoxes...

I dunno... I just get out there with other drivers, and I sometimes become really depressed about the human condition and our future... :wink:

But, I digress from the original point of this thread, or maybe not -- maybe there is a point buried in there about the chaos potential of the unregulated individual. However, too much regulation, of the wrong kind, is very bad too, so it's sort of a wash. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't...


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2811257 - 06/20/04 01:18 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I drive a Mazda Miata. Anyone driving a car bigger than this is increasing the risk of me being dealt bodily harm. Government MUST intervene!

This form of logic really doesn't work. If you're referring to the mere size factor why are you not complaining about trucks, busses, etc. If you're referring to some other safety concern(rollovers) please link some studies. If you're referring to polution created by an SUV or the oil being wasted by those driving SUVS, my first question would be if every SUV was replaced with a slightly smaller car today, would the decrease in polution output and the increase in oil availability(and therefore decrease in prices) be THAT astronomical. Please don't bring up ethanol, hydrogen, electric, hybrid, etc. cars...that's a whole different topic.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Papaver]
    #2811260 - 06/20/04 01:18 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

http://www.ibrattleboro.com/article.php?story=20040519093141362&mode=print


So, I saw an ad yesterday that really bothered me. It was an ad for a Hummer H2, and it had quotes from customers. One was a woman saying "I like knowing that if I hit anything, I win". Now this is true if an SUV hits a smaller vehicle, or a lighter vehicle like a mini-van. But if it hits an SUV of equal or greater size, or a stationary solid object, it of course has no advantage.

Also, the accident figures quite clearly show that you are more *likely* to get into an accident in an SUV than a smaller vehicle. They are high centered and roll-over easily, and more difficult to manuver quickly and have poor visibility. In an SUV vs. compact car accident, the SUV is far more likely to have been the cause of the accident.

So if they hit a small car, the ''If I hit anything, I win" argument is true. They likely mangle or kill the occupents of the smaller car, and they might well walk away from the accident themselves. So, they are more likely to cause the accident. But then more likely to kill the other folks and be ok themselves. And the "If I hit anything I win" mentality shows that many of them buy these vehicles with exactly this scenario in mind!

Well ok. So how about if an option on compact cars was say - a bunch of breakaway titanium rods mounted to the top of the car. So that if they hit another compact car - either the force of the collision would not be enough to even dislodge them, or they would sail harmlessly overhead. But if an SUV hit it - they would break loose and penetrate the SUV. Just like our nuclear deterrent strategy - MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction). They could be painted bright red. SUV drivers would know they need to give the same respect to that little car as they do to other SUV's and Semi's.

I'm not arguing against SUV's. Certainly there are some people who have true need for 4WD and massive seating and cargo capacity. But not many. But its America, so they should have the right to drive them. Just as I as an American should have the right to drive my Subaru with a bunch of titanium rods attached to my roof!




--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2811271 - 06/20/04 01:23 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I didn't say anything about the government, I was just pointing out the fact that driving an SUV is an initiation of force against those who do not.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2811273 - 06/20/04 01:25 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

It is the role of government to respond to the initiation of force. I happen to believe owning and operating an SUV is not one.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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InvisiblePapaverS
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2811298 - 06/20/04 01:40 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

My basic argument against them, and it's a personal one -- I'm not calling for regulation in this area -- is that driving an SUV is often indicative of a personality-type that I simply don't like and don't want to be around.

If they didn't have SUVs, then many of these people would simply find other ways to act selfish and insensitively in their social interactions, so I am merely pointing out that often, owning an SUV is emblematic of social inattentiveness on several levels...

It's generally a personal level of disgust with me. That is all...

There are things you should regulate, and things you shouldn't. I'm not sure that this one qualifies. I would rather, that people just woke up a little bit, but this could be said of many aspects of society today...

Just because I feel that many (not all) SUV owners are a little too into themselves, and too into materialistic fads, regardless of the greater social cost, doesn't mean that I think we should regulate SUV ownership, any more than I think we should castrate the owners to remove the bad anti-social genes... :wink:

I kid... No offense to our fellow shroomerites who own SUVs... :wink:

Whenever you have a society, you have a certain need for laws and regulation. However, I would rather see these types of issues work themselves out without government interaction. As optimistic as this sounds, I do have faith in the inherent goodness of people. They just need to become aware, and start thinking outside of themselves and their own needs. This is a function of education, public opinion, and style (to some extent) -- it needs to become fashionable for people to start contemplating the greater good. I shall not hold my breath on this one. I'll only hold out my hope. :smile:


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2811306 - 06/20/04 01:48 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Driving an SUV increases your safety at the expense of someone elses.

If I have 5 apples and you have 3 and I increase the number of apples that I have by decreasing the number of apples that you have without your consent, would that be initiation of force?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Anonymous

Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2811335 - 06/20/04 02:08 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

even if there are no SUV's, there will still be tractor-trailers, tow trucks, concrete trucks, dump trucks, garbage trucks, RV's, etc.

the idea that SUV owners potentially endanger other people for their own safety is a valid one, but i don't think that preventing people from buying them is a good idea. there would still be a lot of heavy vehicles on the road. it wouldn't make people that much safer, and it would prevent those who wanted the protection of an SUV from having one.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2812060 - 06/20/04 08:52 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Gentlemen, gentlemen! I thought the recommendation here was to get this thread back on topic. The whole SUV tangent was a very minor digression from whether Libertarianism is an invalid philosophy because no one has yet elected a Libertarian president -- or whether a totalitarian meritocracy makes sense because people are too dumb to behave "efficiently" without government forcing them to hire only people who have passed scientific tests.

Get with the program, dammit!

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2812069 - 06/20/04 08:55 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Baby_Hitler writes:

I didn't say anything about the government, I was just pointing out the fact that driving an SUV is an initiation of force against those who do not.

No it isn't. It is no more an initiation of force than driving a Yugo is an initiation of force against those who ride bicycles. Now, if your SUV driver goes around deliberately ramming other vehicles, then yes, that is an initiation of force. But this holds true no matter what vehicle the rammer drives.

pinky


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InvisiblePapaverS
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Phred]
    #2812084 - 06/20/04 09:01 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

If you noticed, my SUV threads were all centered in an overall framework of personal liberty and its resulting responsibility to society vs. the need for externally applied social architecture and regulation. Albeit, from a highly personal viewpoint, but it was there. I quoted no SUV facts, figures, or statistics... :wink:

*No SUV Owners were harmed in the making of this post.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2812153 - 06/20/04 09:20 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Driving an SUV increases your safety at the expense of someone elses.



You are pseudo-correct... I am driving along in my Ford Excursion and some fool in a drunken stupor riding a Honda Civic Del Sol crosses the highway bridge and hits me head on. His car gets absolutely TOTALED while I now need a new bumper. This man's safety is of no concern to me as he has initiated force, force that might have been lethal would I been driving a compact car. However, say I am driving my excursion in a drunken stupor, I cross over the bridge and nail Del Sol guy head on. The same result occurs, I am hardly damaged his car is beyond recognition and he is quite dead. This is where personal responsibility comes into effect. I will now be charged with, among the drunk driving counts, vehicular homicide as opposed to a much lesser crime. In the event of a collision, an SUV does increase my safety at the expense of the other party involved, but the real issue is who broke the law(see:initiated the force). As PinkSharkMark eloquently illustrated, this line of thinking results in quite the slippery slope that if followed to it's logical conclusion would result in every car being the exact same size.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2812213 - 06/20/04 09:34 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

So then is driving under the influence not "initiating force" against anyone unless you hit somebody?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2812286 - 06/20/04 09:54 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Baby_Hitler writes:

So then is driving under the influence not "initiating force" against anyone unless you hit somebody?

Correct. It is not initiating force unless you hit someone (or someone's property). However, we are getting further and further afield from the topic of the thread DoctorJ started. I will start a new thread and invite those interested in pursuing this tangent to post in it, instead. The title will be --

"The Libertarian implications of traffic laws"

See you there.

pinky


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InvisiblePapaverS
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2812364 - 06/20/04 10:11 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
So then is driving under the influence not "initiating force" against anyone unless you hit somebody?




No, that would be an "accident". The statistical result of new probabilities set into effect by (in this case) thoughtless and reckless behavior. If such an act could be termed as the "initiation of force," then any action which produces a result, known or unknown, is then an initiation of force (any cause which produces and effect), and the phrase would become rather meaningless. Not that, I'm altogether sure it already hasn't... :wink:

You guys are getting into a lot of semantics and linguistic hair-splitting here. Sometimes when you tunnel down further and further into the minutiae of a debate or concept, the forest gets lost for the trees...

Just be sure to leave a trail of bread crumbs, in case it get dark. I'll leave a light on outside The Pub! :laugh:


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