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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3432311 -

You are mistaken, the greed of the corporate directors is not the only thing stopping it. People are voting with their dollars that they support it. People are agreeing to work for low wages. I would say that this economic democracy in action and shows the will of the people, the leftist elites be damned. The companies would not be running their businesses the same way if masses of people weren't buying their products. The companies would not be paying low wages if workers wouldn't agree to work until they were compensated with higher wages.

Shouldn't you be railing against the consumers who support these companies? Shouldn't you be out trying to find jobs or creating employment for those who you think don't earn enough to meet your first world standards of income while living with third world expenses? Why don't you start a shoe company? With your vast and expert level business knowledge and years of experience, I'm sure that you could beat the snot out of the competition.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3432440 -

the quantity of goods and services we buy is determined by the law of diminishing utility. there is a reason that people buy 6 or 7 pairs of pants instead of 50. there is a reason that people buy 10 or so dinner plates instead of 100.

as we get more of something, additional amounts become less valuable to us. eventually we reach a point where continuing to buy something at its current price becomes irrational and we stop. if i don't have any pants, i'll gladly pay $30 for a pair of pants. if i've already got 8 pairs, i probably won't.

if the cost of something increases, this point is reached earlier and at lower quantities. you may not do this consciously, but everyone does it. in the business world, it's done intentionally as part of a reasoned plan. they don't pull hiring quotas out of a hat you know.

i'm not even going to argue over whether a company 'could' afford to pay its employees more because every business is different and it's really irrelevent. people are not in the business of giving out money. they are in the business of making a profit. the question is not "can they afford to pay employees more?" but "can we expect them to buy labor for more than it is worth to them, and see a reduced profit, so that they can employ more people at better wages?"

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3433127 -

the question is not "can they afford to pay employees more?"

Because they obviously can without laying anyone off.

"can we expect them to buy labor for more than it is worth to them, and see a reduced profit, so that they can employ more people at better wages?"

Putting it another way, can we expect immensely rich people not to award themselves stratospheric payrises while their workers struggle to feed their children.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3433129 -

Quote:
There are shoe companies in america turning profits and paying american workers 10-20 times as much as south east asian workers get paid.


who and where?


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3433247 -

Because they obviously can without laying anyone off.

yes, but the real question is, "will they?".

and the answer is, "no". they aren't going to hire workers they don't need, and suffer a loss in profits, so that they can provide employment at better wages for more people. it just ain't gonna happen, and i think you know this.

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3435728 -

they aren't going to hire workers they don't need

We're not talking about hiring workers they don't need, we're talking about paying the people you're making your fortune off a living wage.

it just ain't gonna happen, and i think you know this.

It's not gonna happen by choice of the directors that's for sure. It's going to happen how it happened in the west - unions, strikes, workers struggling and dying for freedom, their childrens rights to education and decent working conditions. 150 years ago you would have been saying "Western workers will never be paid a decent wage and I think you know this".

The only trouble is I'm sure the capitalists have learned from the mistakes they made in the west that led to people having decent working conditions and lives. It's not going to be easy for the third world worker I'll grant you that.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3436454 -

We're not talking about hiring workers they don't need

ok, to be more accurate, we are talking about purchasing labor for more than it is worth to them. it's still not gonna happen.

i'm not talking about right and wrong or should and shouldn't. i'm talking about how people will respond to a forced increase in the price of labor. they will purchase less of it.

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3436496 -

What happens if a company is at maximum efficiency with a set number of workers. For simplicities sake let's say Nike has 100 workers. Those 100 workers are paid $1/hour and produce 50,000 shoes. The market is saturated at 50,000 shoes so any increase or decrease in shoe production would lose Nike money. They can't increase the price of shoes because they have to stay competitive with Reebok. So in this hypothetical situtation Nike has 100 workers that they absolutely need to pull in maximum profit since they have to produce 50,000 shoes, no more no less, at at specific price that cannot be lowered.

In that situation if the government forced Nike to pay the workers $2/hour instead of $1/hour what can change? Nike still has to produce exactly 50,000 shoes. Nike still has to sell the shoes at a price equal to Reebok. Nike cannot produce more shoes from less employees because they are at peak efficiency. In that case the workers would have to work the same amount of time and thus make more money. The extra pay would have to come out of the companies earnings.

The same type of situation could happen at say a local Subway. The Subway has to have a certain number of people scheduled and that cannot drop. If it did drop they wouldn't be able to handle all the customers so they would lose money. In that case too if minimum wage was increased the workers would not lose hours and their pay would go up.

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: newuser1492]
    #3436579 -

What happens if a company is at maximum efficiency with a set number of workers. For simplicities sake let's say Nike has 100 workers. Those 100 workers are paid $1/hour and produce 50,000 shoes. The market is saturated at 50,000 shoes so any increase or decrease in shoe production would lose Nike money.

the law of diminishing marginal utility applies to nike's production of shoes as well. if they only made 1000 shoes, they could probably sell them to celebreties and sports stars for $1000 or more a peice. if they made 1,000,000,000,000 shoes, they'd have to give them away. as the market becomes saturated, it becomes less and less profitable for them to make shoes. they don't have to make 50,000, it's just that at the current price of all the inputs, that the most efficient number to make. if the price of inputs increase, they'll make less.

the subway doesn't have to have any people scheduled at all. it schedules people to work because they have paying customers and they need to hire people in order to do business. this is why they hire, and it is this that sets their demand for labor. why do they need a certain number of people?

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3436609 -

Hmm I guess it would depend on their market. If their shoe is marketed towards teenagers as an alternative to Reebok they need to compete with Reebok. If they produced less shoes they would lose sales because stores would run out of Nike and so people would buy an alternative brand. They could hire less people but they would lose business. Just as Subway could hire less people but they would lose customers.

Subway is a good example of a product whose price can change very little. Subway could make 10 sandwiches per day or as many as is required by the customers. It is doubtful that they could charge more money if they produced less sandwiches since the customers would simply shop elsewhere. In that situation the most profitable move is to produce as many sandwiches as are demanded by the customers. In that situation Subway has to hire enough people to fill the demand. If they require 10 employees to fill the demand then hiring less people would lose the company money. A raise of $1/hour would not result in less employees.

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3436613 -

i'm talking about how people will respond to a forced increase in the price of labor. they will purchase less of it.

That depends if they can find cheaper labour anywhere else. If they can't then they'll have to pay the higher rate. Instead of being worth 5.2 billion, Knight might only end up being worth 4.2 billion.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: ]
    #3440972 -

Quote:
executives do not set their own salaries and they sure as hell don't get to pocket company capital.



True, they don't set their own salary.. they just golf with the people that do.


And that's if there IS a board of directors. Those only exist in companies with stock that is primarily held by the public. If it's one person, they're just called the President of the company, and are basically god on earth.

And as I said there've been a fair number of companies I've been familiar with that have closed shop because they were bankrupted by excessive and constantly rising corporate salaries.
the one specific example I'm thinking of, the average worker took a paycut years ago to save the company, that after X years would bring them back to where they were supposed to be.. and long before those X years were up, the guys in the corner offices were patting themselves on the back so hard they decided they needed more money. Then, even despite rising profits, the company went belly-up. Too much of their money invested in paying the presidents.

and then there's the travesty of stock options for those driving the company. Nothing like turning things towards the shitter so it's easier to later double the stock price, after you've got your options locked in at a nice, super, shitty-low amount.


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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #16603228 -

There is a supposed lack of jobs to go around, which makes it harder for the unemployed to get back to work. However, it might also be that what jobs there are don’t pay much, as fully one-quarter of private sector workers are estimated to make less than 10 dollars per hour.

Raising the minimum wage is controversial. It is often asserted that forcing businesses to pay more in minimum wages will mean employers won’t be able to give workers enough hours and fewer jobs will be available to go around.

Edited by kens0105 (07/28/12 02:06 AM)

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: kens0105]
    #16604500 -

Nice. Your very first post here is to bump an 8 year old thread.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #16637558 -

Raising the minimum wage would just cause inflation because a 10 dollar bill would be more common... 8 dollar per hour now is the same value as 30 cents per hour 5 years ago or what ever the actual figures are.


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“If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on.”
― Terence McKenna

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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