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Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious)
    #15819262 -

Israel's nuclear ambiguity policy is highly suspicious IMO. I am convinced that I don't need to explain in detail the Israel nuclear situation. Basically, Israel developed nuclear weapons in the 1960's secretly and this was publicly confirmed from the inside by Mordechai Vanunu, a former Israeli nuclear technician, who revealed details of the program to the British press in 1986.

Point 1. U.S. President John. F. Kennedy was publicly putting pressure on Israel to allow international inspection of their Dimona nuclear facility. He suspected that they were enriching uranium there to develop into weapons. Mordechai Vanunu, the Israeli nuclear bomb whistleblower, claimed there were "near-certain indications" that Kennedy was assassinated in response to "pressure he exerted on Israel’s then head of government, David Ben-Gurion, to shed light on Dimona’s nuclear reactor".

Point 2. This exact nuclear facility that Kennedy put pressure on was the facility that was discovered in 1986 to have been constructing nuclear weapons in the 1960's. (there's a motive for the assassination)

Point 3. We all know the strategic effect of a nuclear deterrent. Some countries like North Korea are currently trying their hardest to make everyone believe that they are armed with nuclear weapons, when in fact that have very few, if any, deployable weapons. This is because there is a strong deterrent against attacking a Nation if they have nuclear weapons. Consider the fact that around 15 years ago, Kim-Jong-Il in North Korea was attempting to develop nuclear weapons at the same time as Myanmar Guddafi in Libya. The U.S. stepped in and basically offered, "cease your nuclear proliferation attempts and we can be friends." .Ghaddafi basically said "oh, friends sounds good, I only really wanted them because of you guys, so if you are claiming to be friends, then fuck it, we don't need them. Friends it is." NK on the other hand said "ya right you fuckers. We remember the korean war. We know how you guys roll. Go suck a dick, we're developing our nukes." Now take a look at where both countries are at.

Point 4. So knowing that Israel definitely has nuclear weapons yet they vehemently refuse to admit this openly (sort of), we have to wonder why they are rejecting the strategic benefits of nuclear deterrence??? Here we have a nation that is supposedly surrounded by hostile lunatics who want to wipe the nation off the face of the planet, always preaching about how they are the only beacon of freedom in a land of irrationality, one would think that a nuclear deterrence would be an advantage, right? Wouldn't it benefit them to tell Iran, "listen Mahmoud, if you guys ever express any hostility towards the nation of Israel, we will turn Iran to green glass."? If you have an arsenal of 250+ nuclear weapons, there are only two things that these weapons can do: 1. Bomb the shit out of your enemies (or use them in false flag attacks to blame your enemies), or 2. Be used as a nuclear deterrent. Basically, if you aren't planning on using nuclear weapons, then you have no use building them other than to use them as a strategic deterrent. This is irrefutable....

Point 5. The Israel lobby in the U.S. is engaged in propaganda in the west trying to convince influential global leaders that Iran is going to attack the U.S. with nuclear weapons. This tactic is used in order to instill fear in the policy-makers so that they are hostile towards Iran. They are essentially trying to convince the leaders that Iran is a threat and might possibly nuke the U.S. Keep in mind that it is open-source intelligence that Iran has no nuclear weapons, nor is actively seeking nuclear weapons.( Note: you have to be going by IAEA documents (the actual agency doing the inspections) to gather this conclusion though, as some western media will try to convince you otherwise with no evidence.) So we know that Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapon and their leader profusely states that he is not, and never will be hostile to the U.S. Yet we have the Israeli lobby trying to convince us otherwise.



If a nuclear bomb were to go off in the U.S. and be blamed on Iran, we could almost be sure that it is in fact one of those secret nukes that Israel has hiding out undeclared. It at least is 100 times more likely than Iran obtaining one and detonating it in the U.S. considering the points I just listed. Why would Iran want to attack the U.S.? The story is, "cause them turrists hates our freedoms!" WHat would they gain by doing this? Killing a couple hundred thousand americans while effectively committing total political suicide. Why would Israel commit a false flag attack blaming Iran? To have an excuse to the U.N. (mainly China and Russia) to invade and conquer the last big chunk remaining in the middle east that isn't under zionist control (if you count Saudi and Pakistan as being under their control because of CIA/MOSSAD involvement with their governments).


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Edited by LightShedder (02/16/12 03:19 PM)

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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: LightShedder] * 1
    #15819285 -

WW3 is right around the corner. China has 5 times our military personal and are friends with Iran.

Another motive for the assassination of JFK was he started printing hard-money six months before he died.

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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: BobTheFreemason]
    #15819313 -

He started printing hard money, he put pressure on the Israe lnuclear program, he blocked Operation Northwoods, the man was a genius and the list goes on and on and on.... He gave em 100 reasons to do it.


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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: LightShedder]
    #15819319 -

Not to mention his "monolithic ruthless global conspiracy" warning...


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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: BobTheFreemason]
    #15819353 -

BobTheFreemason said:
WW3 is right around the corner. China has 5 times our military personal and are friends with Iran.

Another motive for the assassination of JFK was he started printing hard-money six months before he died.


lol China has enough women fit for military service to outnumber every single american citizen. They'll send their women over here through russia/canada, then they'll send their men, then they'll send all their children, including all of those unwanted females!!! THEN, they'll stick Russia, Iran, North Korea and friends on us.

To those who claim these days that "standing armies are useless in this age of nuclear proliferation", I say to you, then why the hell do people still have standing armies?? They are good for something, you'll see.


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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: LightShedder]
    #15819655 -

So, you're anticipating a nuclear attack on the US from Isreal, which they'll blame on Iran?  Or maybe you're saying Israel is blackmailing the US with such a scheme to support Israeli non-nuke hostilities?  Neither of those scenarios seem credible to me.  I do think you raise a good point though--why does Israel sit quietly on their nukes?  The simplest answer might be that that is sufficient to keep any state from taking direct military action against them, so what they have left to worry about is the secret & proxy stuff, ie state sponsored terrorism & guerilla war.


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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: LightShedder]
    #15819701 -

Quote:
Keep in mind that it is open-source intelligence that Iran has no nuclear weapons, nor is actively seeking nuclear weapons.


Source?
Quote:
So we know that Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapon and their leader profusely states that he is not, and never will be hostile to the U.S.


Kinda like how the DPRK claimed they weren't reprocessing fuel rods, weren't building nuclear weapons, and were only interested in satisfying domestic electric demands?  Dictatorial regimes, especially those awaiting the messiah and armageddon, aren't always the most honest, ya know?

Iran claims it would be nice to the US?  Should assurances from a messianic theocracy hell bent on the removal of one of our allies, a sponsor of terrorism, and treaty violater's word be taken on face value?

You can probably get a quote from a senior official that says just about whatever you want- they say quite a bit, not all of which is too comforting.

Quote:
Why would Iran want to attack the U.S.?


Beyond the straw man claims you pointlessly denounce, the answer is quite obvious: they don't like us, really hate the effect we're having on their economy, can't tolerate our support for a tiny democratic country called Israel, and apparently take their instructions from direct revelation from god.

Ignoring this, however; the biggest threat is not a direct attack on the US (barring possible use of some of their terrorist proxies), but the attack of our allies, destablization of the region, and the development of nuclear weapons that they might parcel out to their terrorist proxies in the same way they've done with conventional arms and resources.

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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: johnm214]
    #15819761 -

This is the major reason we are hated in the middle east.



I think people have a really ill idea what Iran is all about. I saw a video on youtube of iranian military all marching using 3 symbols. One was a sword, the other was a american flag with a swatiska where the stars should be, and another the Israel's star. The sword stood still as the other two symbols were "cut" by marching towards the sword. Defending ones country from hostile actions is an honorable act.

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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: BobTheFreemason]
    #15819774 -

Life in Iran. looks pretty nice to me.


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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: BobTheFreemason]
    #15820058 -

BobTheFreemason said:
This is the major reason we are hated in the middle east.





Can't say much about the middle east, but youtube is sure the reason I hate many of the posts on this forum.  If you want to discuss your going to need to make an argument- I'm not interested in searching through your source to try and guess whatever it was that you wanted to argue and whatever it was that you found convincing.  History has shown much of the people citing videos aren't very good at seperating emotional conviction/satisfaction from logical, relevant, argument.


Quote:
I think people have a really ill idea what Iran is all about. I saw a video on youtube of iranian military all marching using 3 symbols. One was a sword, the other was a american flag with a swatiska where the stars should be, and another the Israel's star. The sword stood still as the other two symbols were "cut" by marching towards the sword. Defending ones country from hostile actions is an honorable act.


So what?  I'm not worried about Iran because of their honorable actions.  This is such a silly point I question whether you really intended to make it.  Maybe Ahmadinejad is nice to his mother too- so what?

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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: johnm214]
    #15821353 -

johnm214 said:
Quote:
Keep in mind that it is open-source intelligence that Iran has no nuclear weapons, nor is actively seeking nuclear weapons.


Source?
Quote:
So we know that Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapon and their leader profusely states that he is not, and never will be hostile to the U.S.


Kinda like how the DPRK claimed they weren't reprocessing fuel rods, weren't building nuclear weapons, and were only interested in satisfying domestic electric demands?  Dictatorial regimes, especially those awaiting the messiah and armageddon, aren't always the most honest, ya know?

Iran claims it would be nice to the US?  Should assurances from a messianic theocracy hell bent on the removal of one of our allies, a sponsor of terrorism, and treaty violater's word be taken on face value?

You can probably get a quote from a senior official that says just about whatever you want- they say quite a bit, not all of which is too comforting.

Quote:
Why would Iran want to attack the U.S.?


Beyond the straw man claims you pointlessly denounce, the answer is quite obvious: they don't like us, really hate the effect we're having on their economy, can't tolerate our support for a tiny democratic country called Israel, and apparently take their instructions from direct revelation from god.

Ignoring this, however; the biggest threat is not a direct attack on the US (barring possible use of some of their terrorist proxies), but the attack of our allies, destablization of the region, and the development of nuclear weapons that they might parcel out to their terrorist proxies in the same way they've done with conventional arms and resources.


I guess we share different opinions on Iran and Ahmadinejad. I don't think he is a lunatic, in fact from listening to him a bunch and reading his transcripts I genuinely believe he is a smart and moral man. Sure, Iran has every reason to be pissed off that America is ruining their economy, is supporting Israel, and I'm sure their religious beliefs don't condone our actions. Does that mean that there is a strategic benefit for them in attacking us? You have failed to convince me of that. You also neglected to really assert my main point, and that is, why the hell does Israel have those bombs?


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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #15821670 -

Not Quite Social said:
So, you're anticipating a nuclear attack on the US from Isreal, which they'll blame on Iran?  Or maybe you're saying Israel is blackmailing the US with such a scheme to support Israeli non-nuke hostilities?  Neither of those scenarios seem credible to me.  I do think you raise a good point though--why does Israel sit quietly on their nukes?  The simplest answer might be that that is sufficient to keep any state from taking direct military action against them, so what they have left to worry about is the secret & proxy stuff, ie state sponsored terrorism & guerilla war.



The military strategist in me (that's supposed to be humorous) says that using the nuclear deterrent to the fullest would suppress a lot of Israel's supposed issues in the region. On the same note, if I were ever going to secretly use these bombs for a discreet purpose, I would not want any official confirmation that I have them so when the time comes, we can deny even the possibility that we were involved.

Think about it, hypothetically, from a Israeli military strategist hostile to Iran standpoint, would nuking Tehran, killing 500,000 innocent people, stirring up all kinds of mess globally in the open be strategically beneficial??? Or, if you were going to use those nukes, would it be more effective to make it look like it was Iran who used it? And imagine the reaction from the globe if word gets out that crazy old Iran nuked the U.S.? Don't tell me a zionist military strategist wouldn't cream his pants over the result of this....

I feel like it is irrefutable that Israel plans on using their nukes based on the suspicious nuclear ambiguity policy. The question is, what would be more beneficial? False flag attack on U.S. leading to all-out free-for-all in Iran, with the fingerprints of Israel not on the mass murder? Or Starting a big scene by attacking a hostile country, while half of the globe is opposed to you attacking them, and your fingerprints are all over the bomb?

I'll repeat myself again, Iran has absolutely no strategic interest in attacking the U.S., so I am just saying that I am a little weary about Israel's nuclear policy, that's all. More so than I am about Ahmadinejad obtaining and using one against us.


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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: LightShedder]
    #15821697 -

LightShedder said:
I guess we share different opinions on Iran and Ahmadinejad. I don't think he is a lunatic, in fact from listening to him a bunch and reading his transcripts I genuinely believe he is a smart and moral man.


He's building a boulevard to welcome the hidden imam upon his return and has regularly suggested he has some special link to him.  Beond the other fairy tales the regime is founded on, there's reason to believe he's personally invested in this apocalyptic nonsense.  Beyond that, he apparently feel destroying his country's economy and foreign relations is a worthwhile trade for getting to bomb civilians, attack various Israeli institutions, and develop nuclear technology outside of international oversight of the type other nuclear states have had no problem with (states, incidentally, who don't make an official foreign policy of overthrowing small democracies).

Quote:
Does that mean that there is a strategic benefit for them in attacking us? You have failed to convince me of that.


So what?  There's no strategic reason for them to fund terrorist groups, routinely piss off its neighbors with crazy threats/nuclear programs (unless they're lieing about their intended uses), and half the other crap they do.  The whole worry I have with Iran is percisely the irrational actions they undertake and might continue with.  They don't even have to do anything themselves- providing a bomb, fissile material, or technology to other rogue states is enough to constitute a serious problem, to say nothing of the chances of them arming the terrorist groups they've supported in the past.

Quote:
You also neglected to really assert my main point, and that is, why the hell does Israel have those bombs?



I didn't assert your main point because I don't agree with it, nor does it seem the above issue was actually the focus of your post.  I imagine Israel has nuclear weapons for deterance, like all the other nuclear states, more or less.  Is that really a difficult question?  They're not using them for coffee tables.

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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: LightShedder]
    #15821729 -

"So we know that Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapon and their leader profusely states that he is not, and never will be hostile to the U.S. Yet we have the Israeli lobby trying to convince us otherwise."

JohnM: "Dictatorial regimes, especially those awaiting the messiah and armageddon, aren't always the most honest, ya know?

Iran claims it would be nice to the US?  Should assurances from a messianic theocracy hell bent on the removal of one of our allies, a sponsor of terrorism, and treaty violater's word be taken on face value?"

So it looks like the israeli lobby has managed to convince you otherwise...

You want the source on the fact that Iran is not actively seeking nuclear weapons? First, read every IAEA report on Iran's nuclear facilities since 2003. If that is beyond your competency level, then just read it from the U.S. Defense secretary last month

http://www.david-morrison.org.uk/iran/iran-no-nuclear-programme.htm


I am aware, and have already stated, that the israeli lobby is highly influential in the public opinion of eager listeners like yourself, JohnM.


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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: LightShedder]
    #15821735 -

And please provide the sources which have led you to your suspiciously common conclusions...


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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: LightShedder]
    #15821757 -

Is it really that believable to you John? That the more religious one is, the less rational one is and therefore is more likely to want to commit mass murder for no reason other than irrational hatred?

If you're even slightly aware of the tactics and strategies used by our secular nations' military, then this starts to raise some questions, considering I don't see any occupying religious regime in our country destroying our infrastructure and killing our innocent civilians by the millions.

You want a source for that claim too?


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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: LightShedder]
    #15824067 -

> That the more religious one is, the less rational one is and therefore is more likely to want to commit mass murder for no reason other than irrational hatred?

Those damn Buddhists with their history of mass murder and irrational hatred... damn them!  :rolleyes:

Certainly, religion can be used to incite hatred, but so can skin color, culture, or many other traits.  Blaming religion is a simple way out.  The issue is much more complex.

> I don't see any occupying religious regime in our country destroying our infrastructure and killing our innocent civilians by the millions

By "our country" I assume you mean the US.  Look at Christianity for a good example.  In the early history of America, the Christians killed millions of native Indians, not for religion, but for land.  Even today, millions of people are adversely touched by Christian moral values through the legal system.  Look at the number of people that have died as a result of the War on Drugs.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: Seuss]
    #15824077 -

Do you know who else killed tons of Indians for land?  And slaves?  Other Indians.  True story, brah.  Fuck the Indians.  They were not particularly noble.  They just lost.


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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15824477 -

zappaisgod said:
Do you know who else killed tons of Indians for land?  And slaves?  Other Indians.  True story, brah.  Fuck the Indians.  They were not particularly noble.  They just lost.


I don't disagree with you.  I'm just pointing out that those who think Christians are a kind and gentle folk that have done no harm are in for a rude awakening should they take an honest look.  Going back to statements made by the previous poster, I think it is stupid to blame religion for being the crux of genocide (mass murder).  There have been cases where religion was the motivation behind genocide, and cases where race has been the motivation behind genocide, and cases where land has been the motivation behind genocide, and cases where culture has been the motivation behind genocide, and more.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Israels public refusal of nuclear detterence (suspicious) [Re: Seuss]
    #15824497 -

All I pay attention to is answering the age old question, "Who is the active asshole operating right fucking now?"  Every thing else is history and thus bunk.


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