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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1010176 - 10/31/02 12:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The only ones who had any "real" knowledge were the Phalangists who actually carried out the killings.

Nonsense. Sharon himself resigned in 1983 after being found "personally responsible" for the massacres. The phalangists were under Sharon's direct control and indeed he observed and directed proceedings from an overlooking viewpoint near the towns.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #1010196 - 10/31/02 01:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

your ignorance knows no bounds...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1010197 - 10/31/02 01:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Here's the BBC again:

The 1982 massacres of Palestinians at Sabra and Shatila refugee camps claimed the lives of at least 800 civilians, murdered by Lebanese Christian militiamen allied to Israel during its brief occupation of the Lebanese capital, Beirut.
The killings are considered the worst atrocity of Lebanon's 15-year civil war and perhaps during the entire Middle East conflict.

The victims had been left defenceless after Israel drove the Syrian army and fighters belonging to Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO) from the Lebanese capital.

Mr Sharon declared that "2,000 terrorists" remained in Palestinian refugee camps around Beirut. Sabra and Shatila were surrounded by Israeli tanks and soldiers, with checkpoints to monitor the entry or exit of any person.

But on the afternoon of 16 September about 150 LF fighters moved into the camps.

Mrs Nasser is one of 23 survivors who have lodged a legal case against Mr Sharon in Belgium, where the law allows him to be tried for alleged crimes committed abroad.

Her testimony, along with others is included on a newly-launched internet site about the massacres, Justice for the Victims of Sabra and Shatila.

Israeli inquiry

Mr Sharon resigned his post after an Israeli commission of inquiry established that he bore indirect responsibility for the deaths for "having disregarded the danger of acts of vengeance" by the militias when he allowed them into the camps.

Outside Israel, human rights groups have long argued that Mr Sharon and the Lebanese Christian perpetrators should be tried for war crimes.

The Belgian court is still deciding whether to pursue charges of crimes against humanity against Mr Sharon.



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Anonymous

Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1010860 - 10/31/02 04:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What I am stating is ISRAEL has a more powerful army then all the ARAB nations combined. They have this because CITIZENS of the UNITED STATES lobby their government to make it so.

I am also stating that CITIZENS of the UNITED STATES must now lobby their GOVERNMENT to put pressure on ISRAEL, reduced AIDE, to achieve a desired goal that is in it's our best interest. Force Israel to go back to the original Partition borders, and negotiate for WATER RIGHTS for Israel in exchange for returning the occupied territories.

Motivation is, CITIZENS of the USA support ISRAEL. Money is the means of support!!! Don't confuse the means with the REASON. The USA is a government of the people and for the people. People make the government go in the direction they want it to go.

The ISRAELI LOBBY in the USA is a system of citizens that work together to acheive a goal. Those citizens spend there money and time guarenteeing that ISRAEL gets the money it needs and wants. It is the American way.

If you want to limit the money that Israel recieves, i.e lobby for reduced Aide to Israel, you are free to do so, and it would probably be a good thing. Using Aide as blackmail is the only way to acheive the desired outcome, wihout going to war. Israel unlike Iraq, actually does like it's own citizens, and this type of economic pressure can work against Israel. Unlike Saddam, who can personally dodge the bullet of economic pressure, by dealing with Other countries out the back door, all the time allowing his citizens to suffer, and blame the USA for forcing the UN to live up to it's own mandates, that ALL members agreed to.

Iraq, unlike Israel, has other countries that are willing to deal with them on the down low. Israel has few friends in the GLOBAL picture. The only country that can persuade Israel to do anything, is the USA. We finance their survival.

Agree or disagree, it's just my opinion on what needs to be done.



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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #1011239 - 10/31/02 07:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

To be honest, probably not. I mistakenly took you at your word. You are lying.

Actually, my little cherub, I am not. Once again your inability to comprehend your native tongue has led you to a false conclusion. Hard as it may be for you to comprehend, televison news programs and print media existed before you took an interest in them. It is quite clear from my very first post to this thread that I was referring to the media coverage of the event AS IT WAS REPORTED AT THE TIME:

"These events were well-covered by the Canadian (and international) press at that time. Everything I saw on the nightly news from CTV and CBC, everything I read in the Ottawa Citizen and Ottawa Journal, all the articles in Time and Newsweek and MacLean's magazine, everything I heard from my Lebanese friends..."

Note the use of the past tense and the phrase "at that time".

Here's some more:

"I don't know how old you were at the time these events were actually ocurring, so I do not assume you were following the events on a day-to-day basis as they were reported. I was."

"In 1982 I was unable to receive BBC or French or Spanish or Swedish news reports on my television."

Starting to get the picture, sweetie?

If you can find any mainstream media sources that consider Israel blameless for Sabra and Chatila please provide them.

I did, in my first post in the thread. To the best of my knowledge, CBC and CTV don't archive twenty year old news broadcasts on the Web, nor do the Ottawa Citizen and the Ottawa Journal (which is now defunct anyway) archive twenty-year old news stories online. The newspaper stories could be researched on microfiche if someone took the time. I doubt I could get in touch with my old Lebanese buddies easily, but I suppose it might be possible. The thing is, I don't need to refresh my memory on what I saw, discussed, and read.

Okay. On to your next claim:

"A BBC documentary discussing whether Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon could be charged with war crimes has made front page news in Israel

Israel's media summarised the contents of the documentary, broadcast in Britain on Sunday, concluding that most of the programme's interviewees favoured indicting Mr Sharon.

The programme has stirred emotions, and 80% of participants in an online poll by the Israeli daily Maariv have voted that Israel should boycott the BBC following the broadcasting of the documentary."


The dateline on that story was June 18, 2001, not June 18, 1983. What was the BBC saying at the time I was watching the reports I mentioned in Canada? What were the London newspapers reporting at the time I was reading the newspaper articles I mentioned in Canada? My guess is they were saying pretty much the same thing as what I was watching and reading AT THE TIME.

Here's the BBC again:

"The 1982 massacres of Palestinians at Sabra and Shatila refugee camps claimed the lives of at least 800 civilians, murdered by Lebanese Christian militiamen allied to Israel during its brief occupation of the Lebanese capital, Beirut.
The killings are considered the worst atrocity of Lebanon's 15-year civil war..."


The dateline on that story was January 24, 2002, not January 24, 2003. How are either of these recent news stories representative of the news coverage being issued during the period of which I wrote?

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1011398 - 10/31/02 08:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

there's no use arguing with him...he makes no sense....product of inbreeding


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1011425 - 10/31/02 08:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Sadly, I am beginning to think you are right. I dunno about the inbreeding part though. Whaddya figger... should I mebbe make a poll to see if it would be a popular move for me to stop responding to his posts? Sorta like the way nugsarenice got frozen out of this forum?

How do I make a poll, anyway? Must research this option....*mumble, mutter*

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1011875 - 10/31/02 11:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

How are either of these recent news stories representative of the news coverage being issued during the period of which I wrote?

So you have no evidence, just some vague general impression you got that Israel were the good guys. With you being so far right anyway are you sure it wasn't simply a case of wish fullfillment? I have great doubts about your ability to interpret evidence.

Once again, find me a major news media that considers Israel totally innocent about Sabra.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1011936 - 10/31/02 11:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Sadly, I am beginning to think you are right

Surprise surprise. The two right-wingers agree with each other. Inny hadn't heard of the Sabra massacre until two days ago now he's a world expert on it. You can certainly pick your sources of information pink. See, that's kinda why I doubt your interpretation of information - you consider inny a world authority on sabra.

should I mebbe make a poll to see if it would be a popular move for me to stop responding to his posts?

That would be GREAT! Save me time responding to you. To be honest what else is there left for you to do? Every argument you've tried to make has been comprehensivly demolished. I think one last childish gesture at this stage is your best option. Why not just stop replying? The less bandwidth wasted on posts supporting Bush, the NRA and anti-abortion groups the better. I'm sure you could find many NRA far-right fundamentalist sites who would agree with your every word.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #1012177 - 11/01/02 02:24 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Firstly i wont be lobbying anyone as im not as citizen of your fine country. I think your faith in your system of government is admirable if a little naive. How you can say in all seriousness that anyone could succesfully lobby for a change in your governments policy on the middle east is beyond me. It aint gonna happen. There is far too much at stake. The people dont even get to be governend by who they voted for anymore, thats the 50% who do vote anyway. You can lobby all you like but at the end of the day as both your parties are bankrolled by big business it doesnt really matter who gets into power. Dont buy into the illusion of democracy, it is a sham.


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Always Smi2le


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #1012300 - 11/01/02 03:56 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

Every argument you've tried to make has been comprehensivly demolished.



Of all the nonsense that you've spewed here, that's the funniest yet. Everyone here who has tried has shown you for the bufoon you are.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1012383 - 11/01/02 05:13 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

he reminds me of nugsarenice sooooooo much....i could say 2+2=4 and he'd say bush and america want to change it to 5...sheeesh


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (11/01/02 05:13 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1012400 - 11/01/02 05:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

im not being funny but do you ever say anything not related to another poster i.e something on subject and intelligent?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1012410 - 11/01/02 05:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****i.e something on subject and intelligent? ****

yes.............do you ever answer questions asked of you?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (11/01/02 05:53 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1012440 - 11/01/02 06:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If Tony Blair let an army march through london and told them not to hurt anyone and then they slaughtered half of south london - do you think tony would be held accountable?


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Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1012444 - 11/01/02 06:26 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ask away.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1012466 - 11/01/02 06:43 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

you see my posts...read away


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1012605 - 11/01/02 08:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I refer you to my last post on some other thread. Party on dude!

PEACE


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1012625 - 11/01/02 08:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

if you don't want to answer just say so..sheesh


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1012785 - 11/01/02 09:41 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

if you wanna ask me a question ask away. Im at work and havent got time to trawl thru your posts to see what i should be answering - reading them once is enough cheers! and hey lighten up its the weekend! whats your plans?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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