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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #999414 - 10/28/02 07:59 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ivertigo - could i direct you to this site which gives some very revealing facts about the israeli - palestinian conflict. I hope your mind is open enough to not dismiss it out of hand. http://pilger.carlton.com/


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #999483 - 10/28/02 08:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

***I think you'll find far more palestininan children have died in the last couple of years actually. ***

how?...just saying it doesn't make it so. Can you tell me a time when isreal purposly killed children.....i'll save you some time, you can't..however, cowardly homocide bombing palastinians have killed innocent people including children while at the same time shielding themselves with innocent people to avoid retaliation..cowards


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #999496 - 10/28/02 08:57 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****Ivertigo - could i direct you to this site which gives some very revealing facts about the israeli ****

Sure, if you're willing to look, with an open mind, to the facts that are presented to you in other sites that say the complete opposite...or are those sites not applicable?

direct me to a specific article on that site, i'm not going to study it because someone i've never heard of is telling me to do so...if you do then i will.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (10/28/02 12:50 PM)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1000875 - 10/28/02 06:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I believe you need to get off that high horse of yours.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Zahid]
    #1001024 - 10/28/02 07:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

or what?...you'll bomb me?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1001058 - 10/28/02 07:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

or what?...you'll bomb me?

Now that hurts...


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Zahid]
    #1001073 - 10/28/02 07:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

:smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1002721 - 10/29/02 08:44 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

point me to some sites, im not going to point you to a specific point on a site for gods sake!


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1002775 - 10/29/02 09:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

you haven't shown me the article yet...which one is it? you brought it up not me...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (10/29/02 09:12 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1005403 - 10/30/02 07:43 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

its the section related to palestine funnily enough.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1005458 - 10/30/02 08:14 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I Guess you're not getting the point...give me a direct link and i'll read it. I'm not going to read the whole site because you don't know where your source is.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Zahid]
    #1008441 - 10/30/02 11:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Your the one that brought religion into the discussion.  I just refuse to accept the answer to the Israel/Palestine conflict lies in religion.  I think it is going to be solved by Compromise, something that doesn't exist under any Religious System. 

Zahid states:  "I don't give a damn what you believe in; what I'm concerned about is the society-and the general well-being of a community as a whole; and how the political and religous games are played within each government."

This proves my point.  This is what seperates the WEST from the MUSLIM world. You don't include the individual in the system.  You view the whole system without viewing it's parts.  You choose to exclude me from the system in hopes that it somehow fits closer to YOUR IDEAL of what is RIGHT and WRONG.

Your vision of Government is terrifying to me.  A government run by a singular viewpoint at the expense of those who do not share the viewpoint.  I can see the mass exterminations now, in the name of ALLAH. Burn the Kaffir, or a little less extreme, Don't buy from or don't sell to.

Without respecting the individual, the system will be flawed.  What you view as an abomination(individual freedom) I view as a salvation.  America would not be as succesful as it is, if it refused to acknowledge the minority(constitutional rights) for the sake of the system. 

America understands that you have to respect EACH PART of the system, before you can even see it as a sytem. 

Only from Mechanistic thinking can you embrace holistic thinking.  You have to respect each part, then you have to respect how each part interacts with other parts of the system.  Then you can RESPECT the system as a whole.

Ain't gonna be no peace until there is EQUAL RIGHTS and JUSTICE.  You can still love god, and work for EQUALITY.  Unfortunately I have seen no religion that can keep it's cultural views from tainting the belief in GOD.  It is always about exclusion of the individual, and strict adherence to Religous LAWS that aren't consistent from one Religion to another, one people to another. 

Personally I choose to respect GOD, not the religion.  This helps me to respect the rights of men to CHOOSE for themselves.  I can love FREEDOM, and still love GOD.


" I don't give a damn what you think", "what I'm concerned about is the society" 

Genius, I am a part of the society.  You are stating you want to ignore my voice, go with yours, and do it in the name of society.  That's why I believe in the CONSTITUTION of the USA.  It protects me from you.
:tongue:

 


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009022 - 10/31/02 02:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)



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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #1009064 - 10/31/02 03:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Can you please explain how this:

"Israel cannot be destroyed. All the Arab countries know this. they have tried to make peace with Israel. Israel refuses. It is the responsibility of the West to Force Israel to comply, and return the occupied territories."

Fits with:

"#15 answers why we support Israel and why we are opposed to IRAQ.
(15. What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the US. according to a recent Fortune magazine survery of Washington insiders?
Israel)"

You are confirming that your countries motives are primarily
ruled by money as opposed to any real consideration of what is really right. I think this is why you have so alienated the muslim world in recent years. You can spin it around all you like but that is what it boils down to. America pursuing greed over humanity.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009368 - 10/31/02 05:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

you wasted my time on this article?..i'm disappoointed (but am happy you actually found an article concerning this) it's an editorial ie: (opinion piece)

some highlights from the article:

Some have committed desperate acts of terror, like suicide bombing. But for Palestinians, the overriding, routine terror, day after day, has been the ruthless control of almost every aspect of their lives, as if they live in an open prison.

oh now it's desporate acts of terror....i like to just call a spade a spade you know aristotilian(sp) Law A is A: HOMOCIDE BOMBING COWARDS

what your article is convieniently missing is WHY the palastinians are where they are. Why did all those countries invade Isreal? Have you heard of the phrase "Spoils of War"? If the results was different and the Arabs/palastinians won do you think they would of given their land back?

Your articlae says:

1982 Israel invades Lebanon under the command of Ariel Sharon with the aim of destroying the PLO. Thousands of civilians are killed during the operation and the PLO flees Lebanon, spreading across the Arab world.

another article says:

The Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia was responsible for the massacres that occurred at the two Beirut-area refugee camps on September 16?17, 1982. Israeli troops allowed the Phalangists to enter Sabra and Shatila to root out terrorist cells believed located there. It had been estimated that there may have been up to 200 armed men in the camps working out of the countless bunkers built by the PLO over the years, and stocked with generous reserves of ammunition.

When Israeli soldiers ordered the Phalangists out, they found hundreds dead (estimates range from 460 according to the Lebanese police, to 700-800 calculated by Israeli intelligence). The dead, according to the Lebanese account, included 35 women and children. The rest were men: Palestinians, Lebanese, Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians and Algerians. The killings came on top of an estimated 95,000 deaths that had occurred during the civil war in Lebanon from 1975-1982.


source: sabra and chatila
hmmmm interesting...who's right?..who's biased...whose article is an opinion?

i find it interesting that the amount of homocide bombings isn't listed..apparantly the palastinians, along with the PLO are innocent of any wrong doing.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (10/31/02 05:48 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009436 - 10/31/02 06:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think the point is Sharon ordered this, Fact - not opinion. I was already aware of the suspected involvement of the Lebanese, as was Sharon aware of the methods employed by these people. Just because it may not have been exclusively Israelis involved in this incident, the orders came from the Israelis. Serious question: if one side was to take a posistion of non-violence whatever the provocation. How long would it be before world opinion swung hugely in their favour? I know this is unlikely but do you think Sharon is so stupid that he doesnt see the connection between bulldozing innocent peoples houses and fanatics strapping bombs to themselves? I seriously doubt it. He may be many things but he is not stupid. I suppose at the end of the day there are fanatics on both sides, just as their are people seeking peace on both sides. There are thousands of Israelis who are appalled at the way their government treat the palestinians just as there are palestinians who weep for the innocent israeli victims of the suicide bombers. People like Sharon and Bush are consumed with their own self interest, but they are fully aware of what they do.

Just one last point - My source is a world respected, independent journalist. Your source is an organisation who are bound to support israel. Im not saying they would twist facts to suit themselves because of course that never happens does it bud? :smirk: 


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009442 - 10/31/02 06:23 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"oh now it's desporate acts of terror....i like to just call a spade a spade you know aristotilian(sp) Law A is A: HOMOCIDE BOMBING COWARDS"

How many innocent afghanistanis were bombed by american bombs? does your straight talking stretch to US HOMOCIDE BOMBING COWARDS?

Or is it ok becuase....ummm i cant even think how you will justify it.

Remember you call a spade a spade.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009473 - 10/31/02 06:37 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****I think the point is Sharon ordered this, Fact - not opinion. ****

what about the invasion of isreal?

****Sharon is so stupid that he doesnt see the connection between bulldozing innocent peoples houses and fanatics strapping bombs to themselves? I seriously doubt it. ****

so you're justifying the homocide bombings?

****There are thousands of Israelis who are appalled at the way their government treat the palestinians just as there are palestinians who weep for the innocent israeli victims of the suicide bombers. ****

true....i'll give ya that

****People like Sharon and Bush are consumed with their own self interest, but they are fully aware of what they do.****

name a person on this earth that doesn't have their self interest in mind?

****My source is a world respected, independent journalist. ****

so independant that he left out how the hostilities began...independant is a funny word, unfortunatly it is extremely biased and an editorial to boot(probably more than my article is)(if you look on another thread, i mentioned this to alex123)

****Your source is an organisation who are bound to support israel. *****

are you saying that your article wasn't written by a supporter?..that's funny

****Im not saying they would twist facts to suit themselves because of course that never happens does it bud?****

on the contrary, however the more i'm inundated with palastinian sympathisor articles i will respond with the opposite..


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009478 - 10/31/02 06:39 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****How many innocent afghanistanis were bombed by american bombs? ****

I'll say this again because i've said it a million times....US and Isreal DO NOT bomb civilians as their primary target..and there is a difference. However the arabs and palastinians can't say the same

****does your straight talking stretch to US HOMOCIDE BOMBING COWARDS?****

see above

****Or is it ok becuase....ummm i cant even think how you will justify it.****

see above

****Remember you call a spade a spade.****

see above


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009497 - 10/31/02 06:51 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Its ok because we didnt mean it? is that what your saying. If you cant hit the target dont drop bombs. And at the end of the day, The military know they are going to kill civillians on certain missions because of the civillian's proximity to whatever the target maybe. So with that prior knowledge they are knowingly killing civillians. Whats the difference? If they cant bomb without killing innocent people they shouldnt bomb. It is still murder. If i chuck a petrol bomb through a mcdonalds window which is closed, and i am only targetting the property not any people, but there is somebody say a cleaner working late who I inadvertenly kill, I will be tried for murder. It is the same thing.


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Edited by GazzBut (10/31/02 06:56 AM)


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