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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting
    #966974 - 10/16/02 07:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I got this email from a friend in Belgium. Like the heading suggested this is biased but pretty interesting nontheless.
Questions and Answers:
1.Which country in the Middle East alone has nuclear weapons?
Israel
2.Which country in the ME refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections?
Israel
3.Which country in the ME seized sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations Security Council Resolutioins?
Israel
4.Which country in the ME routinely violates the borders of another sovereign state with warplanes, artillery and naval gunfire?
Israel
5.What American ally in teh ME has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (sometimes referred to exporting terrorism)?
Israel
6.In which country in the ME have high-ranking military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed?
Israel
7.What country in the ME refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war?
Israel.
8.Big One! What country in the ME created 762,000 refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms and businesses?
Israel
9.What country in the ME refuses to pay compensation to people whose land, bank accounts and businesses it confiscated from 1948-present?
Israel
10. In waht country in the ME was a high-ranking UN diplomat assassinated?
Israel
11In what country inthe ME did the man who ordered the assassination of a high-ranking UN diplomat become prime minister?
Israel
12.What country in the ME blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a US ship in international waters, killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors?
Israel
13.What country int he ME employed a spy Jonathan Pollard, to steal classified documents and then gave some of them to the USSR?
Israel
14 What country at first denied any official connection to Pollard, then voted to make him a citizen and has continuously demanded that the American president grant Pollard full pardon?
Israel
15. What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the US. according to a recent Fortune magazine survery of Washington insiders?
Israel
16.What coutnry in the ME is in defiance of 69 UN security council resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by US vetoes?
Israel
17.What country is the US threatening to bomb and occupy because "UN Security Council resolutions must be obeyed?"
Iraq


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Buddha5254]
    #966979 - 10/16/02 07:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Some of these I cant back up with personal knowledge, but many I can. Hope you guys like this one! Ill be back at 10:30 or so.


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Buddha5254]
    #967077 - 10/16/02 07:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

but but! israel is a "free" country, iraq is not!

free countries can do as they choose.

they occupy the "moral highground", so all of this irrelevant


--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


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Offlinefoghorn
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Lallafa]
    #967089 - 10/16/02 07:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

you anti-semite!

(joking)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Buddha5254]
    #967224 - 10/16/02 08:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I liked #17 the best...nice list :grin:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #967270 - 10/16/02 08:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Hey thanks, feel free to copy it and send it to your friends. Later I will post the stories of my Palestinian friend and the shit his grandparents went through in 1948.


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Anonymous

Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Buddha5254]
    #968098 - 10/17/02 03:00 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Israel atrocities do not negate Iraq's non compliance. Both countries are in violation with the UN.

#15 answers why we support Israel and why we are opposed to IRAQ.

Guess what, you live in a free country. You have the power to LOBBY. DO SO!!!

America is simple. EARN MONEY, SPEND MONEY. Do these two things and you can invade Canada if you want.Of course you have to have the intelligence to WORK within the system, instead of Bitching about the system. Apparently the ZIONISTS figured this out, long ago. Maybe the palestinians will figure it out as well, I got my fingers crossed for them. Oh yah, the majority of the ARAB countries that are in a position to financially assist them in LOBBYING are more interested in paying them to blow themselves up, and using them as pawns in their own litlle power struggles.

Don't hate the JEWS for being smart, After all it is American Tax dollars that support the occupation, I think they(JEWS) have made a GREAT RETURN(US FOREIGN AIDE to ISRAEL)on their investment(LOBBY MONEY)
Israels success is based on a simple thing. THEY ONLY HAVE TO LOBBY FOR ONE THING, THE CONTINUATION OF ISRAEL.

The ARAB countries are many different people who TEND NOT TO AGREE ON ANYTHING accept the END OF ISRAEL.

Since ISRAEL can never be ENDED(Military, Nuclear capabilities) the ARAB COUNTRIES better start agreeing on applying FINANCIAL PRESSURE within THE US to at least get ISRAEL out of the occupied territories. Their answer has been Terrorism on Western Interests.
Ofcourse, Terrorism does not HELP the cause. Instead of enabling money to be funneled into AMERICA, and increasing the Populace of AMERICA with ARAB blood, it will only result in the FREEZING of any ARAB money, or ARAB immigration.

For a people who history proves to be BRILLIANT, their inability to keep the MORE extreme minority(ACTUAL TEORRORISTS) from dictating agenda is quit telling of their present state of Organization(Disorganization)
For hating the WEST as much as they do, they really should understand how it works(POLITICAL SYSTEM).

Investment in terrorism results in a loss of power. Investment in Politicians results in more power. Only from a position of POWER can terrorism LEAD to more POWER. Cases in Point, ISRAEL against Palastinians, and The Iraqi government against it's own people.

If you want to Stop ISRAEL, you are gonna have to spend some money within the USA political system. If you wanna stop the USA from demanding IRAQ to Disarm, you have to do so by spending money in the USA political system, or in RUSSIA, CHINA, or FRANCE.

This is AMERICA. MONEY IS POWER. TALK is for the POOR and UNORGANIZED.

LEARN IT LIVE IT OR SIT BY AND WATCH IT.

EVERY COUNTRY ACTS OUt OF SELF INTEREST, USA is not alone in this practice. Israel is not alone. Iraq is not alone. EVERY COUNTRY DOES IT!!!

This is what it is. You can dream about a better world, I do. But When you wake up in the morning, you better start looking out for your own BEST interests. Whatever that may be. Because no one will be looking out for yours too!!!

If you are a citizen of IRAQ, you must kiss the ass of a DICTATOR and PRAY for the day when SOME EVIL SELF SERVING COUNTRY BOMBS THE LIVING SHIT OUT OF YOUR COUNTRY, and some form of FREEDOM is a side effect of their self serving mission. USA gets oil, and IRAQIs get another chance at freedom. It sucks that this is how it works, but it does work like this.

There other option is to Pray for RUSSIA,CHINA,FRANCE to maintain control of the UN, and suffer the Sanctions imposed by the world against their DICTATOR who refuses to DISARM his offensive capabilities., while he DEALS out the back door with Russia,China,France to maintain his own lifestyle at the expense of his people!!!

People talk about Lobby Power like it is some untangible thing. Something only the rich can do. That is bullshit. If the Drug Legalization Lobby was organized and every Drug user contributed, Drugs would be Legal tommorow.

You have to WORK within the system!!!




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Invisiblebivalve
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #968149 - 10/17/02 03:39 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't like how you capitalize words
like that.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Buddha5254]
    #968188 - 10/17/02 04:24 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i've got an idea...do one that lists how the palastinians purposley kill children..that would be a hoot.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (10/17/02 10:11 AM)


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #968335 - 10/17/02 07:03 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You mean how Palestinian terrorists puposely kill children? Ok do it. Its sad but true that money rules everything


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Buddha5254]
    #968631 - 10/17/02 10:13 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

do you know how long that list would be?..wow....and that's just the innocent people that palastinians kill this year.....

money has nothing to do with it...where'd you get that from?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (10/17/02 10:14 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: bivalve]
    #969278 - 10/17/02 01:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I know THAT'S why I do it.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #970931 - 10/17/02 10:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

America, Britain, Israel and their allies are at war with Islam.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Zahid]
    #971696 - 10/18/02 06:18 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That's an incredibly ignorant way to look at it. I know that's how it looks to a lot of the muslims living in the middle east, but if you're living in the west, you should be intelligent enough to realize that for the western countries, this has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with money.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #971700 - 10/18/02 06:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'd have to look it up, but I don't think that the Palestinians have kill more people than the Israelis have. The Israeli army has killed a LOT of innocent people, they just haven't used suicide bombers.

They have even been known to pick off kids in refugee camps for sniper practice.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #971974 - 10/18/02 10:00 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

USA gets oil, and IRAQIs get another chance at freedom.

You mean America gets to install another fucking lunatic like Saddam? Installing Saddam was know by the CIA as "Our favourite coup". In the 80's Saddam was Reagan and Bush's best friend. America couldn't give a fuck about freedom. They just want to install another savage maniac in power who will obey their commands.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #972021 - 10/18/02 10:35 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Good observation Phluck, the deaths are very lobsided.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phluck]
    #972169 - 10/18/02 12:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****The Israeli army has killed a LOT of innocent people****

Innocent people? I am not naive enough to think that they have never done killed innocent people but they don't target those innocent people as their primary objective. I would bet that a majority (just my opinion) of those innocent people were housing terrorists...ie: guilty by association

****they just haven't used suicide bombers****

lets call it what it is...homocide bombings...yes they die but their objective is not to just kill himself, if so then i'd be all for it.

**** They have even been known to pick off kids in refugee camps for sniper practice. ***

who? isreal?....oh lord you don't actually believe that do you?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Buddha5254]
    #972177 - 10/18/02 12:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****the deaths are very lobsided. ****

how? and would it be better if they killed equal amounts of people.....Isreal is a superior power..

I think Colan Powel said it best "I don't want a fair fight"


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #972191 - 10/18/02 12:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think Colan Powel said it best "I don't want a fair fight"

Coming from an apologist for My Lai you can will believe him.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #972255 - 10/18/02 12:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

eh?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #973038 - 10/18/02 06:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Invertigo is watching way too much fox news


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phluck]
    #973463 - 10/18/02 10:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That's an incredibly ignorant way to look at it. I know that's how it looks to a lot of the muslims living in the middle east, but if you're living in the west, you should be intelligent enough to realize that for the western countries, this has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with money.

Yes, the motivation is oil and money. However, it is a transgression against Islam.


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Anonymous

Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Zahid]
    #973707 - 10/19/02 12:05 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I am not ignorant of the past, I am optimistic about the future.



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Anonymous

Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Zahid]
    #973773 - 10/19/02 12:40 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I choose to keep my government seperate from my Religion. It is the only way to have equality and freedom.

I am quite certain that EVERY AMERICAN MUSLIM will agree with my above statement. If they don't, you may want to check their Immigration status.


America did not Partition the Muslim world. We have simply supported which ever side we needed to at any given time to serve our own interests. Ultimately it is the responsibility of Each and every country in the world to CHOOSE whose money you will take.

If Islam is at war with the countries you mentioned, then all Muslim citizens living with in their borders are Enemies of the STATE they live in. Since I know this to be untrue, your statment MUST be FALSE.

It is easy to blame the west, but it is only scapegoating. The arab world has been at eachothers throats, just like the rest of the world. NO DIFFERENCE.

Muslims kill Muslims. Jews Kill Jews. Christians kill christians. non believers kill non believers.

the only solution to all the madness is Self determination without limiting others Self determination.(Civil Rights for individual citizens and the right to self determination for NAtions)

People have to be free first. Then they can choose to enslave themselves in any doctrine they want!!!
I



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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #974124 - 10/19/02 03:19 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

** clap, clap, clap **


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Buddha5254]
    #974915 - 10/19/02 02:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

and you rely on your ignorance....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #975060 - 10/19/02 03:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Most Muslims believe government should not be seperated from state, otherwise you get a society like the west in return. Most Muslims also know that a state ran under pure Islamic Law is a pipe dream because of colonization. This is the clash of civilizations, the Christian West, and the Muslim East (unbelievers in both lands are excluded). One handful of people believe in freedom and deomocracy, the other handful believe in God's Law as the law of the land. In no way is the U.S. and Israel transgressing against Islam for no reason other than that we are all Muslim - the transgression is done not out of loathing for Islam, but greed for the oil in our lands. The Prophet Muhammad (saws) predicted that the Muslim world would be exploited and taken advantage of in the future - right down to the prediction that non-Arabs would stop food from entering Iraq, that the custodians of the Kaa'ba would be corrupt, etc. While traditionally what Bush is doing is viewed nothing more that an "assertive pre-emptiveness against terror", Muslims, from California to Jakarta see it nothing more but a western attempt to have stable control of oil in Muslim lands. Long before the September 11th attacks Bush wanted to do a regime change in Afghanistan - and hence, another puppet regime who bows down to the West. If Bush gets his way with Iraq, there will be another puppet regime in Iraq. The situation gets all the more complicated when infidel troops are stationed on the Peninsula of the Mosque of Ahmad (another name for Prophet Muhammad), and the Mosque of Allah - along with America's unconditional, one-sided, overwhelmingly biased support for the illegal state of Israel. The U.S. has also made a puppet of the Muslim world's only military/nuclear power, Pakistan. And as many Muslims view it, there is an indirect alliance between western nations that ultimately excludes and/or exploits Islam, and Islamic values & interests for oil fields (along with other arrogant agendas) in predominately Islamic lands.

While you may see it differently, the United States, and Israel has transgressed against Islam. That is all I am implying.


--------------------


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #976039 - 10/20/02 01:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It is easy to blame the west, but it is only scapegoating. The arab world has been at eachothers throats, just like the rest of the world. NO DIFFERENCE.

Well I think the US supporting Israel for the last 30 years and blocking every UN resolution saying they should get out of Palestine has a little to do with it. They wouldn't be fighting if Israel gave the Palestinians back some of their land.

It's not a problem that "just happened" - people created it. It can be uncreated.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Zahid]
    #976340 - 10/20/02 03:43 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Go back to the history books. At the PEAK of the Arab(muslim) empire, they had a seperation of church and state. You could worship whatever religion you wanted too!!!

Don't compare an oppressed Muslim to a FREE ONE. Islam only suffers a negative image.

I go to work with muslims. They do not share your view of Islam. Your view sounds more like a anti Muslim view.

Arabs are angry about occupation. They should be!!! It really has nothing to do with Religous freedom, because when they were free last, Jews lived peacefully within their borders. There culture was a collage of many cultures.

Your version of ISLAM is a direct response to a lack of Self determination within a nation with a population that is majority Muslim. It is an OCCUPIED expression of Religion, not a free one!!

Israel cannot be destroyed. All the Arab countries know this. they have tried to make peace with Israel. Israel refuses. It is the responsibility of the West to Force Israel to comply, and return the occupied territories.

Modern day wars are fought over resources and Land, not Religion. Religion is how you motivate troops to go into a war without sufficient power to win.

If it was a holy war buddy, there would be no ISLAM.








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OfflineZahid
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #978185 - 10/20/02 09:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

According to the Law of God, other religions are permitted to exist - Islamic Law forbids the destruction of any Church, Temple, etc. Living under Sharia'h Law is not oppression at all for a Muslim - while a state ran under pure Islamic Law does not exist today, most Muslim regimes are highly conservative (and unfortunately, corrupt). There are many different interpretations of Islam; however I find it premature of you to make any judgement or assumption about any particular Islamic interpretation considering the fact you are a kaffir and an outsider to Islam - alien to the inner workings of the culture and politics of the Islamic faith. Many Western Muslims disagree with Sharia'h Law (even though it is the Law of God) for a number a reasons that conflict with their liberal views. Myself, I am moderate in some areas, conservative in others - to say my interpretation is "anti-Muslim" is highly absurd and offensive. Fortunately, the vast majority of Muslims believe this world is about worshipping God, and creating a just society - not a society that permits what Allah has forbidden in the name of "freedom".


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #978871 - 10/21/02 04:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****They wouldn't be fighting if Israel gave the Palestinians back some of their land.****

ha ha..that's funny :grin:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Zahid]
    #985489 - 10/23/02 12:53 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Offended?

Why should anything I say offend you?

My god is the GOD of choice. Its only LAW is FREE WILL. I choose to worship it's only LAW.

I would say probably everyday I do something that would offend YOUR GOD. Luckily for me, my GOD gave me choice. I do things because I want to. I do things because my GOD lets me.

I choose what offends me, and I tend to avoid it!! I have choice. I have free will.

I live in the west, because I choose to. I like it here, because I choose to.

You adhere to a law that was given to you though a MAN. I adhere to the LAW that was given to me DIRECTLY BY GOD. My GODS LAW demands that I ignore your GODS LAW. My GOD wants to experience the world THROUGH ME. My GOD loves DIVERSITY. My GOD has a great sense of humor.

My god made monkeys that have sex with there own children. My god made porpoise that use GANG RAPE to express there dominance over territory. My god made fish that change sex when they reach a certain size. My god made mosquitoes and flies. My god made fungus that eat other organisms, and other fungus that make me forget how to tell time. My god made alcohol and Marijuana. My god made the clitoris. My god made breasts. My god made everything you can see, smell, touch, hear, and feel. My god made everything under the sun, moon and stars. My god made the sun, moon, and stars. My god made you.

My god gave you the ability to THINK that he gave you rules that you should follow. He did give you rules, but the ones he gave you, you HAVE TO OBEY. You don't have a choice!!!

So take all your religions and worship them. You have that choice, that GOD gave you. But always remember this. GOD gave everyone CHOICE. THIS is the only thing GOD gave to everyone. You even get to choose wether you live or die, right up to the point when you DIE.

May you wind up one day stuck in a CAGE, the only thing left to eat some nice PORK. When this time comes may you realize, that the only thing GOD has really given you is CHOICE. Will you choose to obey the Laws that GOD gave you THROUGH a MAN, or will you obey the LAW that god gave you as a MAN. FREE WILL. I hope you choose to follow those laws that GOD gave you through MAN. There will be one less wacko to overpopulate the world.

Don't confuse Self interest with Self importance. The belief in Religion is the ultimate FUCK YOU to GOD. I wouldn't dare to even GUESS what GOD expected of me. I certainly would not listen to any MAN that told me what GOD expected of ME.

I am to busy living the WAY GOD DESIGNED ME to LIVE. FREE WILL. The RULES are BUILT INTO the DESIGN.

Well moses said GOD said this. Well Jesus said GOD said that. Well the big M said god said this............. and so on and so on and so on and so on. So when is the next Prophet of GOD to come, and what will the new rules be?

GOD is the creator. You are the design. Your interpretation of GOD implies FLAW in it's design. I see no FLAw. I see an infinite number of interconnected pieces making up the pie. That PIE is GOD. My GOD is unexplicable, unreducable, and WAY beyond our one piece of the PIE.

If you need some RULE book to act decently to your fellow pieces, then PLEASE use it. I don't. I don't need you to tell me I am an infidel for respecting the other pieces to the pie.

You call me a Kaffir.

This is your own self importance speaking. You assume I must follow YOUR GODS RULES to believe in GOD, LOVE GOD, WORSHIP GOD. You are the KAFFIR!!

I don't need your gods rules to love my GOD. I love my god in MY way. I love GOD by using the LIFE it granted me, and the FREE WILL it DESIGNED ME TO USE.

This is why I choose AMERICA, the WEST, FREEDOM. Every person is an individual, working interconnectedly with other individuals. WE all see, feel, interpret, and rejoice in GOD in our own ways.

You may need the ROAD MAP to be in AWE of GOD. I don't. GOD built the road map into ME, it was part of IT's DESIGN.

I would say I am more MUSLIM then you could ever be. I KNOW GOD. I LOVE GOD. I express my love for god through my actions.

You express your love for him by following rules, you BEILIEVE to be MANDATED by GOD.

YOU are the KAFFIR. YOU are the unbeilever. You need GOD expressed in terms of MAN. You cannot experience GOD, without experiencing man first. You need GOD spoon fed to you. I DON'T.

All Men are borne PURE, and DIE PURE. It is your necessity to percieve things as good or evil, with god or against god.

Some of the most Devout GOD worshippers are Aetheists. In your BOX, you live in , you could never understand that. They worship the DESIGN, which is in essense, the CREATOR. They worship it with absolute belief.

I don't need to abstain from eating pork to be pure. I don't need to not have sex before marriage to be pure. I am pure now and will be pure when I die.

GOD DOESN"T MAKE MISTAKES. People trying to Categorize GOD, make the mistakes.

Your GOD is just a piece of MINE!!!










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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #986365 - 10/23/02 11:13 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Wow... I like that.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #994769 - 10/26/02 01:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i don't normally read very long posts (a time thing) but yours was worth it...I like it a lot and has described the exact way i feel towards religions in general. I've been trying to justify my escape recently from the catholic religion (like i need explaining) and have always thought the worst thing that has happened to christianity (or any belief in God) is the introduction of religion. Baptist are told not to dance, Catholics are told not to use birthcontrol or eat meat on fridays during lent, Muslims have a certain with us or against us attitude, aethist believe that if you have beliefs you're a fool, and seven day advents(sp) feel the need to go to church on Sat.(don't know much about them).

I'm curious why your post hasn't been responded by the one you replied to?...consider this post a bump


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #997014 - 10/27/02 02:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

My God, a religious debate in the political forum! I'm not going to nit-pick at your pantheist/spiritualist/whatever belief of God you have, but nowhere are you (an unbeliever) qualified to make any assumptions of any particular interpretation of a religious text, since--as an unbeliever, you do not have any particular interpretation because you disbelieve. Don't get prissy because a Muslim calls you a kaffir, it's just a word from another language that means "unbeliever". You, are an unbeliever of Islam. So sue me.

Can we stay on topic here? I don't give a damn what you believe in; what I'm concerned about is the society - and the general well-being of a community as a whole; and how the political and religious games are played within each government.


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Edited by Zahid (10/27/02 02:07 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Zahid]
    #997848 - 10/27/02 07:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I BELIEVE you are extremely closed minded......but that's just what this kaffir BELIEVES...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #998786 - 10/27/02 11:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I BELIEVE you are extremely closed minded

Talk about the pot and the kettle...


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #999254 - 10/28/02 05:14 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

you're a libbie...i don't think i need to say more


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #999408 - 10/28/02 07:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i've got an idea...do one that lists how the palastinians purposley kill children..that would be a hoot.....

I think you'll find far more palestininan children have died in the last couple of years actually.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #999414 - 10/28/02 07:59 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ivertigo - could i direct you to this site which gives some very revealing facts about the israeli - palestinian conflict. I hope your mind is open enough to not dismiss it out of hand. http://pilger.carlton.com/


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #999483 - 10/28/02 08:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

***I think you'll find far more palestininan children have died in the last couple of years actually. ***

how?...just saying it doesn't make it so. Can you tell me a time when isreal purposly killed children.....i'll save you some time, you can't..however, cowardly homocide bombing palastinians have killed innocent people including children while at the same time shielding themselves with innocent people to avoid retaliation..cowards


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #999496 - 10/28/02 08:57 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****Ivertigo - could i direct you to this site which gives some very revealing facts about the israeli ****

Sure, if you're willing to look, with an open mind, to the facts that are presented to you in other sites that say the complete opposite...or are those sites not applicable?

direct me to a specific article on that site, i'm not going to study it because someone i've never heard of is telling me to do so...if you do then i will.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (10/28/02 12:50 PM)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1000875 - 10/28/02 06:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I believe you need to get off that high horse of yours.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Zahid]
    #1001024 - 10/28/02 07:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

or what?...you'll bomb me?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1001058 - 10/28/02 07:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

or what?...you'll bomb me?

Now that hurts...


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Zahid]
    #1001073 - 10/28/02 07:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

:smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1002721 - 10/29/02 08:44 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

point me to some sites, im not going to point you to a specific point on a site for gods sake!


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1002775 - 10/29/02 09:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

you haven't shown me the article yet...which one is it? you brought it up not me...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (10/29/02 09:12 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1005403 - 10/30/02 07:43 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

its the section related to palestine funnily enough.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1005458 - 10/30/02 08:14 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I Guess you're not getting the point...give me a direct link and i'll read it. I'm not going to read the whole site because you don't know where your source is.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Zahid]
    #1008441 - 10/30/02 11:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Your the one that brought religion into the discussion.  I just refuse to accept the answer to the Israel/Palestine conflict lies in religion.  I think it is going to be solved by Compromise, something that doesn't exist under any Religious System. 

Zahid states:  "I don't give a damn what you believe in; what I'm concerned about is the society-and the general well-being of a community as a whole; and how the political and religous games are played within each government."

This proves my point.  This is what seperates the WEST from the MUSLIM world. You don't include the individual in the system.  You view the whole system without viewing it's parts.  You choose to exclude me from the system in hopes that it somehow fits closer to YOUR IDEAL of what is RIGHT and WRONG.

Your vision of Government is terrifying to me.  A government run by a singular viewpoint at the expense of those who do not share the viewpoint.  I can see the mass exterminations now, in the name of ALLAH. Burn the Kaffir, or a little less extreme, Don't buy from or don't sell to.

Without respecting the individual, the system will be flawed.  What you view as an abomination(individual freedom) I view as a salvation.  America would not be as succesful as it is, if it refused to acknowledge the minority(constitutional rights) for the sake of the system. 

America understands that you have to respect EACH PART of the system, before you can even see it as a sytem. 

Only from Mechanistic thinking can you embrace holistic thinking.  You have to respect each part, then you have to respect how each part interacts with other parts of the system.  Then you can RESPECT the system as a whole.

Ain't gonna be no peace until there is EQUAL RIGHTS and JUSTICE.  You can still love god, and work for EQUALITY.  Unfortunately I have seen no religion that can keep it's cultural views from tainting the belief in GOD.  It is always about exclusion of the individual, and strict adherence to Religous LAWS that aren't consistent from one Religion to another, one people to another. 

Personally I choose to respect GOD, not the religion.  This helps me to respect the rights of men to CHOOSE for themselves.  I can love FREEDOM, and still love GOD.


" I don't give a damn what you think", "what I'm concerned about is the society" 

Genius, I am a part of the society.  You are stating you want to ignore my voice, go with yours, and do it in the name of society.  That's why I believe in the CONSTITUTION of the USA.  It protects me from you.
:tongue:

 


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009022 - 10/31/02 02:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)



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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #1009064 - 10/31/02 03:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Can you please explain how this:

"Israel cannot be destroyed. All the Arab countries know this. they have tried to make peace with Israel. Israel refuses. It is the responsibility of the West to Force Israel to comply, and return the occupied territories."

Fits with:

"#15 answers why we support Israel and why we are opposed to IRAQ.
(15. What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the US. according to a recent Fortune magazine survery of Washington insiders?
Israel)"

You are confirming that your countries motives are primarily
ruled by money as opposed to any real consideration of what is really right. I think this is why you have so alienated the muslim world in recent years. You can spin it around all you like but that is what it boils down to. America pursuing greed over humanity.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009368 - 10/31/02 05:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

you wasted my time on this article?..i'm disappoointed (but am happy you actually found an article concerning this) it's an editorial ie: (opinion piece)

some highlights from the article:

Some have committed desperate acts of terror, like suicide bombing. But for Palestinians, the overriding, routine terror, day after day, has been the ruthless control of almost every aspect of their lives, as if they live in an open prison.

oh now it's desporate acts of terror....i like to just call a spade a spade you know aristotilian(sp) Law A is A: HOMOCIDE BOMBING COWARDS

what your article is convieniently missing is WHY the palastinians are where they are. Why did all those countries invade Isreal? Have you heard of the phrase "Spoils of War"? If the results was different and the Arabs/palastinians won do you think they would of given their land back?

Your articlae says:

1982 Israel invades Lebanon under the command of Ariel Sharon with the aim of destroying the PLO. Thousands of civilians are killed during the operation and the PLO flees Lebanon, spreading across the Arab world.

another article says:

The Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia was responsible for the massacres that occurred at the two Beirut-area refugee camps on September 16?17, 1982. Israeli troops allowed the Phalangists to enter Sabra and Shatila to root out terrorist cells believed located there. It had been estimated that there may have been up to 200 armed men in the camps working out of the countless bunkers built by the PLO over the years, and stocked with generous reserves of ammunition.

When Israeli soldiers ordered the Phalangists out, they found hundreds dead (estimates range from 460 according to the Lebanese police, to 700-800 calculated by Israeli intelligence). The dead, according to the Lebanese account, included 35 women and children. The rest were men: Palestinians, Lebanese, Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians and Algerians. The killings came on top of an estimated 95,000 deaths that had occurred during the civil war in Lebanon from 1975-1982.


source: sabra and chatila
hmmmm interesting...who's right?..who's biased...whose article is an opinion?

i find it interesting that the amount of homocide bombings isn't listed..apparantly the palastinians, along with the PLO are innocent of any wrong doing.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (10/31/02 05:48 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009436 - 10/31/02 06:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think the point is Sharon ordered this, Fact - not opinion. I was already aware of the suspected involvement of the Lebanese, as was Sharon aware of the methods employed by these people. Just because it may not have been exclusively Israelis involved in this incident, the orders came from the Israelis. Serious question: if one side was to take a posistion of non-violence whatever the provocation. How long would it be before world opinion swung hugely in their favour? I know this is unlikely but do you think Sharon is so stupid that he doesnt see the connection between bulldozing innocent peoples houses and fanatics strapping bombs to themselves? I seriously doubt it. He may be many things but he is not stupid. I suppose at the end of the day there are fanatics on both sides, just as their are people seeking peace on both sides. There are thousands of Israelis who are appalled at the way their government treat the palestinians just as there are palestinians who weep for the innocent israeli victims of the suicide bombers. People like Sharon and Bush are consumed with their own self interest, but they are fully aware of what they do.

Just one last point - My source is a world respected, independent journalist. Your source is an organisation who are bound to support israel. Im not saying they would twist facts to suit themselves because of course that never happens does it bud? :smirk: 


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009442 - 10/31/02 06:23 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"oh now it's desporate acts of terror....i like to just call a spade a spade you know aristotilian(sp) Law A is A: HOMOCIDE BOMBING COWARDS"

How many innocent afghanistanis were bombed by american bombs? does your straight talking stretch to US HOMOCIDE BOMBING COWARDS?

Or is it ok becuase....ummm i cant even think how you will justify it.

Remember you call a spade a spade.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009473 - 10/31/02 06:37 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****I think the point is Sharon ordered this, Fact - not opinion. ****

what about the invasion of isreal?

****Sharon is so stupid that he doesnt see the connection between bulldozing innocent peoples houses and fanatics strapping bombs to themselves? I seriously doubt it. ****

so you're justifying the homocide bombings?

****There are thousands of Israelis who are appalled at the way their government treat the palestinians just as there are palestinians who weep for the innocent israeli victims of the suicide bombers. ****

true....i'll give ya that

****People like Sharon and Bush are consumed with their own self interest, but they are fully aware of what they do.****

name a person on this earth that doesn't have their self interest in mind?

****My source is a world respected, independent journalist. ****

so independant that he left out how the hostilities began...independant is a funny word, unfortunatly it is extremely biased and an editorial to boot(probably more than my article is)(if you look on another thread, i mentioned this to alex123)

****Your source is an organisation who are bound to support israel. *****

are you saying that your article wasn't written by a supporter?..that's funny

****Im not saying they would twist facts to suit themselves because of course that never happens does it bud?****

on the contrary, however the more i'm inundated with palastinian sympathisor articles i will respond with the opposite..


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009478 - 10/31/02 06:39 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****How many innocent afghanistanis were bombed by american bombs? ****

I'll say this again because i've said it a million times....US and Isreal DO NOT bomb civilians as their primary target..and there is a difference. However the arabs and palastinians can't say the same

****does your straight talking stretch to US HOMOCIDE BOMBING COWARDS?****

see above

****Or is it ok becuase....ummm i cant even think how you will justify it.****

see above

****Remember you call a spade a spade.****

see above


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009497 - 10/31/02 06:51 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Its ok because we didnt mean it? is that what your saying. If you cant hit the target dont drop bombs. And at the end of the day, The military know they are going to kill civillians on certain missions because of the civillian's proximity to whatever the target maybe. So with that prior knowledge they are knowingly killing civillians. Whats the difference? If they cant bomb without killing innocent people they shouldnt bomb. It is still murder. If i chuck a petrol bomb through a mcdonalds window which is closed, and i am only targetting the property not any people, but there is somebody say a cleaner working late who I inadvertenly kill, I will be tried for murder. It is the same thing.


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Edited by GazzBut (10/31/02 06:56 AM)


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009504 - 10/31/02 06:55 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"name a person on this earth that doesn't have their self interest in mind?
"

Not everyone puts their self interest so far above that of others that people have to suffer.



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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009518 - 10/31/02 07:04 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I normally stay out of the Israel - PLO threads.

However, in this case I must confirm that Innvertigo's source is reporting things correctly. I remember following the reports on the Lebanese situation quite closely at the time it was occurring, because I was living in Ottawa, Canada at the time. Ottawa has quite a large Lebanese population, and I had several Lebanese friends. It was impossible to avoid listening to them -- they were understandably quite passionate about the situation in their "homeland".

Sharon's only involvement in those massacres was to let the Phalangists pass through Israeli lines. An Israeli commission of inquiry ruled that he should have anticipated the possibility of violence by the Phalangists and refused to let them enter the area. He was relieved of his command as punishment.

These events were well-covered by the Canadian (and international) press at that time. Everything I saw on the nightly news from CTV and CBC, everything I read in the Ottawa Citizen and Ottawa Journal, all the articles in Time and Newsweek and MacLean's magazine, everything I heard from my Lebanese friends, fits exactly with what Innvertigo's source reports. The killing was done by Lebanese, not by Israelis. My Lebanese friends were quite proud of it -- they all hated the PLO, and considered Palestinians to be beneath contempt, an attitude virtually universal throughout the Arab world, by the way. This is why there was no protest in the rest of the Arab world -- "What's the problem? It was just a few hundred Palestinian dogs."

I doubt it is possible to access through the web newspaper reports from that long ago, but certainly your local newspapers and libraries have their back issues on micro-fiche. If you really want to expend the effort, you could verify the facts through that method.

Ariel Sharon in my opinion is as much a fanatic as some of the PLO, and I disagree with many of his actions both as a soldier and as a politician, but in the specific case of Sabra and Chatila he (and Israel) was a bit player. The Lebanese were the bad guys, and they have never apologized for their actions. From my personal experience with Lebanese, they never will.

pinky


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009530 - 10/31/02 07:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****Not everyone puts their self interest so far above that of others that people have to suffer.****

not everyone has the opportunity....


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1009532 - 10/31/02 07:19 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Tthats pretty much what I said. He gave the orders and should have anticipated the violence.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009533 - 10/31/02 07:19 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

sharon,bush,heads of multinational companies do though dont they. Or does the devil make them do it??


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009535 - 10/31/02 07:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think the point is Sharon ordered this, Fact - not opinion.

So sorry, but that is not a fact. Sharon did NOT order it. According to one report I read (Ottawa Citizen, maybe? Can't remember now) he originally refused to let the Lebanese through the lines. Eventually, however, he did let them pass. Anyone who knows anything about the Israeli involvement in the Lebanese nightmare is aware that there was constant friction between the Lebanese factions and the Israeli military presence. It is laughable to think that any Lebanese group would take orders from any Israeli officer.

It is possible that a different Israeli general than Sharon would have held firm and refused to let them through. I personally believe it is quite possible that Sharon suspected the Phalangists would go apeshit and had no problem with that scenario -- but the Phalangists were NOT under his command. No Lebanese troops were EVER under Israeli command at any time.

pinky


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1009666 - 10/31/02 08:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"Eventually, however, he did let them pass." - he gave an order, did he not?


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009672 - 10/31/02 09:02 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

***sharon,bush,*****

you'll always hate them no matter what i or anybody eles says (like i said to Rono once. Bush could tell the truth, have all the evidence in the world and you'd still not believe him...

****heads of multinational companies do though dont they. Or does the devil make them do it?? ***

examples would be nice. We all know how bad Enron was because there were criminal acts...what examples do you have?

just because it's a multinational companie doesn't make it evil..or are companies like the red-cross, amnesty intl, etc. bad companies....you sound like you're bitter when people are successful..am i wrong?


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009675 - 10/31/02 09:05 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****he gave an order, did he not?****

you're basing your whole stance on that?...weak my man..weak

i like how the libbies ignore what actually started all this hostility...classic libbyism


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009707 - 10/31/02 09:28 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"you'll always hate them no matter what i or anybody eles says (like i said to Rono once. Bush could tell the truth, have all the evidence in the world and you'd still not believe him..."

Wrong.

"examples would be nice. We all know how bad Enron was because there were criminal acts...what examples do you have?"

Examples of multinationals putting their interest above their own workers or the community at large? Thats like saying give me examples of days when the sky was blue.

"just because it's a multinational companie doesn't make it evil..or are companies like the red-cross, amnesty intl, etc. bad companies....you sound like you're bitter when people are successful..am i wrong?"

Please dont patronise me. I know multinationals arent evil by definition. Your perceptions are awry. I also dont have a problem with success. Just with greed and egotism that impinge unneccesarily on others. How many times do I have to say this?

1) Do you think the pursuit of wealth is the highest pursuit of human life?

2) Do you think it is okay to better yourself at the expense of others, when you dont actually need to do this to ensure your pwn survival but it may put theirs at risk?

3) Do you think the world would be improved if people were more willing to share rather than hoard resources?

4)Do you think the current system is possible of acheiving this kind of situation? If yes, please explain how. If no, please explain how.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009709 - 10/31/02 09:30 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"you're basing your whole stance on that?...weak my man..weak"

If sharon had wanted to prevent it he could of. If this is not the case please explain. Dont just give me some (supposed) smartass answer.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1009740 - 10/31/02 09:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Sharon's only involvement in those massacres was to let the Phalangists pass through Israeli lines

You think the israeli's let roaming armies just stroll around? If anyone was walking on that land they were under the direct and complete control of israel. It's like saying the rumanians killed jews so the germans were completely innocent.

And the terrorist history of Israel is goes way back to the forties when they were deliberatly blowing up hotels and killing innocents. Begin led one of the most feared terrorist gangs in history.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1009755 - 10/31/02 09:51 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Everything I saw on the nightly news from CTV and CBC, everything I read in the Ottawa Citizen and Ottawa Journal, all the articles in Time and Newsweek and MacLean's magazine, everything I heard from my Lebanese friends, fits exactly with what Innvertigo's source reports.

Good indicator of how biased the mainstream media is if it all tells the same story as a rabid far right american-israel website.

No-one with any knowledge of what happened in Sabra and chatlia has any doubt about who was responsible. The right-wing Israeli's were proud of it.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009766 - 10/31/02 09:54 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****Examples of multinationals putting their interest above their own workers or the community at large? ****

no i meant give me examples of these company's that you hate so we can discuss them....you hate international comanies because they exist. period. I agree that there are some (enron being one ofcourse)

****Please dont patronise me. I know multinationals arent evil by definition. ****

then your words decieve you...

***I also dont have a problem with success. Just with greed and egotism that impinge unneccesarily on others. How many times do I have to say this? ***

you said there should be a cap on success? I'm confused now...or does this only apply to what you, and like minded people like yourself, think success is? Wether you like it or not some people consider their success to be money, you call this greed, i call it none of my business....

****1) Do you think the pursuit of wealth is the highest pursuit of human life?****

me? no..but others may not have the goals that i have...others make money their goal, some do it within the law, others obtain in illegally. Either case it's none of your business what I or others think their pursuit in life is alas: Socialism

****2) Do you think it is okay to better yourself at the expense of others, when you dont actually need to do this to ensure your pwn survival but it may put theirs at risk?****

what context are they bettering themselves? i'll assume you mean corporatly (because you hate them soooo much) i'll say NO WAY. If the other person expects a free ride then fuck em.

****3) Do you think the world would be improved if people were more willing to share rather than hoard resources?****

Not exactly....i don't want to share certain things with my enemies...

****4)Do you think the current system is possible of acheiving this kind of situation? If yes, please explain how. If no, please explain how.****

which system? Europes? Europe is too inept to organize anything....they can't even get the Euro right. But i digress...HOW you ask? Enforce existing laws.



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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009794 - 10/31/02 10:05 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

you said there should be a cap on success?

Do you think there should be a cap?

Simple question. If i could become a multi-millionaire by chopping down the Amazon rainforest next year, should I be allowed to?

(btw, whats your definition of success? Do you think the head of Nike sitting on his multi-millions while exploting 10 year old kids as slaves in his factory is a success? Is he a bigger success than Gandhi for example? Who never had a penny to his name?


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Edited by Alex123 (10/31/02 10:08 AM)


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #1009860 - 10/31/02 10:40 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****If i could become a multi-millionaire by chopping down the Amazon rainforest next year, should I be allowed to? ****

do you own the land? If so the yes (the amazon rain forest is joke argument)

****btw, whats your definition of success? *****

what difference does it make?...others are different from mine, that's their right

****Do you think the head of Nike sitting on his multi-millions while exploting 10 year old kids as slaves in his factory is a success? ****

old argument...take it up with the countries that allow 10 year-olds to work

****Is he a bigger success than Gandhi for example? ****

it depends on what HE thinks is success. If i compare my idea of success and compare them with lets say yours, then yes i am more successful.

BTW: Do you understand individual rights and thought?

****Who never had a penny to his name? ****

his idea of success was different from others. Personally i would say he's a success because his goal was peace.

as a side note: noone takes you serious so why bother?


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009873 - 10/31/02 10:50 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

he gave an order, did he not?

The relevant point is, he did not order the Lebanese nationals to massacre the Palestinians in Sabra and Chatila. They did that on their own.

I don't know how old you were at the time these events were actually ocurring, so I do not assume you were following the events on a day-to-day basis as they were reported. I was.

There was massive opposition to the Israeli presence in Lebanon from many (not all, by any means, but quite a few) of the seemingly infinite number of Lebanese factions involved in the clusterfuck that was Lebanon at that time -- so much pressure that Israel eventually said, "Fuck it! We're outta here! You are now free to resume killing each other as you see fit."

pinky


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #1009916 - 10/31/02 11:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Good indicator of how biased the mainstream media is if it all tells the same story as a rabid far right american-israel website.

Lordy, lordy, you are not one to let facts get in your way, are you? The "mainstream" media MUST be lying, even as far back as 1982, if it happens to report things that dispute your preconceived worldview, huh?

Note that with the exception of Time and Newseek, all the sources I referred to were Canadian sources. You may not be aware that the CBC television network is run by the Canadian government, not rapacious corporations. In 1982 I was unable to receive BBC or French or Spanish or Swedish news reports on my television. I had no cable TV, CNN didn't exist, and even if I would have bought French and Spanish and Swedish newspapers it would have done me no good, since I couldn't read any of them properly. But I'll bet the BBC and the London newspapers were telling the same story. England had correspondents on the ground in Beirut, too... there were probably more Brit journalists there than Canadians, in fact.

In this particular case, I was getting my information not only from the news media, but also from expatriate Lebanese friends of mine who were in touch with family members still in Lebanon. Their version of events rarely differed much, if at all, from what the media were reporting. They were quite a bit more uncomplimentary in their characterization of the Israelis and the Palestinians, of course, but they never complained that the FACTS of the coverage were inaccurate or even biased, for that matter.

No-one with any knowledge of what happened in Sabra and chatlia has any doubt about who was responsible.

The only ones who had any "real" knowledge were the Phalangists who actually carried out the killings. The rest of us have to rely on the reports of the Israeli inquiry into the incident and the reports of Lebanese to whom that group of Phalangists boasted. Not all of us are fortunate enough to have contact with Alien buddies like yours, Alex, who can tell us exactly when the "mainstream media" is lying and when they are not. Odd how the only time the media lies is when they deliver facts in opposition to your own unshakeable beliefs in what reality should be.

pinky


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1010134 - 10/31/02 12:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

do you own the land? If so the yes

I didn't even bother reading the rest of your post. This is classic dumbass. If you had a brain you'd be dangerous.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1010163 - 10/31/02 12:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The "mainstream" media MUST be lying

To be honest, probably not. I mistakenly took you at your word. You are lying. If you can find any mainstream media sources that consider Israel blameless for Sabra and Chatila please provide them. I seriously doubt you can. Sharon has been indicted as a war criminal in Belgium and is still under threat of a prosecution from the international court.

Here's the BBC for example:

"A BBC documentary discussing whether Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon could be charged with war crimes has made front page news in Israel

Israel's media summarised the contents of the documentary, broadcast in Britain on Sunday, concluding that most of the programme's interviewees favoured indicting Mr Sharon.

The programme has stirred emotions, and 80% of participants in an online poll by the Israeli daily Maariv have voted that Israel should boycott the BBC following the broadcasting of the documentary.





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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1010176 - 10/31/02 12:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The only ones who had any "real" knowledge were the Phalangists who actually carried out the killings.

Nonsense. Sharon himself resigned in 1983 after being found "personally responsible" for the massacres. The phalangists were under Sharon's direct control and indeed he observed and directed proceedings from an overlooking viewpoint near the towns.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #1010196 - 10/31/02 01:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

your ignorance knows no bounds...


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1010197 - 10/31/02 01:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Here's the BBC again:

The 1982 massacres of Palestinians at Sabra and Shatila refugee camps claimed the lives of at least 800 civilians, murdered by Lebanese Christian militiamen allied to Israel during its brief occupation of the Lebanese capital, Beirut.
The killings are considered the worst atrocity of Lebanon's 15-year civil war and perhaps during the entire Middle East conflict.

The victims had been left defenceless after Israel drove the Syrian army and fighters belonging to Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO) from the Lebanese capital.

Mr Sharon declared that "2,000 terrorists" remained in Palestinian refugee camps around Beirut. Sabra and Shatila were surrounded by Israeli tanks and soldiers, with checkpoints to monitor the entry or exit of any person.

But on the afternoon of 16 September about 150 LF fighters moved into the camps.

Mrs Nasser is one of 23 survivors who have lodged a legal case against Mr Sharon in Belgium, where the law allows him to be tried for alleged crimes committed abroad.

Her testimony, along with others is included on a newly-launched internet site about the massacres, Justice for the Victims of Sabra and Shatila.

Israeli inquiry

Mr Sharon resigned his post after an Israeli commission of inquiry established that he bore indirect responsibility for the deaths for "having disregarded the danger of acts of vengeance" by the militias when he allowed them into the camps.

Outside Israel, human rights groups have long argued that Mr Sharon and the Lebanese Christian perpetrators should be tried for war crimes.

The Belgian court is still deciding whether to pursue charges of crimes against humanity against Mr Sharon.



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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1010860 - 10/31/02 04:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What I am stating is ISRAEL has a more powerful army then all the ARAB nations combined. They have this because CITIZENS of the UNITED STATES lobby their government to make it so.

I am also stating that CITIZENS of the UNITED STATES must now lobby their GOVERNMENT to put pressure on ISRAEL, reduced AIDE, to achieve a desired goal that is in it's our best interest. Force Israel to go back to the original Partition borders, and negotiate for WATER RIGHTS for Israel in exchange for returning the occupied territories.

Motivation is, CITIZENS of the USA support ISRAEL. Money is the means of support!!! Don't confuse the means with the REASON. The USA is a government of the people and for the people. People make the government go in the direction they want it to go.

The ISRAELI LOBBY in the USA is a system of citizens that work together to acheive a goal. Those citizens spend there money and time guarenteeing that ISRAEL gets the money it needs and wants. It is the American way.

If you want to limit the money that Israel recieves, i.e lobby for reduced Aide to Israel, you are free to do so, and it would probably be a good thing. Using Aide as blackmail is the only way to acheive the desired outcome, wihout going to war. Israel unlike Iraq, actually does like it's own citizens, and this type of economic pressure can work against Israel. Unlike Saddam, who can personally dodge the bullet of economic pressure, by dealing with Other countries out the back door, all the time allowing his citizens to suffer, and blame the USA for forcing the UN to live up to it's own mandates, that ALL members agreed to.

Iraq, unlike Israel, has other countries that are willing to deal with them on the down low. Israel has few friends in the GLOBAL picture. The only country that can persuade Israel to do anything, is the USA. We finance their survival.

Agree or disagree, it's just my opinion on what needs to be done.



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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #1011239 - 10/31/02 07:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

To be honest, probably not. I mistakenly took you at your word. You are lying.

Actually, my little cherub, I am not. Once again your inability to comprehend your native tongue has led you to a false conclusion. Hard as it may be for you to comprehend, televison news programs and print media existed before you took an interest in them. It is quite clear from my very first post to this thread that I was referring to the media coverage of the event AS IT WAS REPORTED AT THE TIME:

"These events were well-covered by the Canadian (and international) press at that time. Everything I saw on the nightly news from CTV and CBC, everything I read in the Ottawa Citizen and Ottawa Journal, all the articles in Time and Newsweek and MacLean's magazine, everything I heard from my Lebanese friends..."

Note the use of the past tense and the phrase "at that time".

Here's some more:

"I don't know how old you were at the time these events were actually ocurring, so I do not assume you were following the events on a day-to-day basis as they were reported. I was."

"In 1982 I was unable to receive BBC or French or Spanish or Swedish news reports on my television."

Starting to get the picture, sweetie?

If you can find any mainstream media sources that consider Israel blameless for Sabra and Chatila please provide them.

I did, in my first post in the thread. To the best of my knowledge, CBC and CTV don't archive twenty year old news broadcasts on the Web, nor do the Ottawa Citizen and the Ottawa Journal (which is now defunct anyway) archive twenty-year old news stories online. The newspaper stories could be researched on microfiche if someone took the time. I doubt I could get in touch with my old Lebanese buddies easily, but I suppose it might be possible. The thing is, I don't need to refresh my memory on what I saw, discussed, and read.

Okay. On to your next claim:

"A BBC documentary discussing whether Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon could be charged with war crimes has made front page news in Israel

Israel's media summarised the contents of the documentary, broadcast in Britain on Sunday, concluding that most of the programme's interviewees favoured indicting Mr Sharon.

The programme has stirred emotions, and 80% of participants in an online poll by the Israeli daily Maariv have voted that Israel should boycott the BBC following the broadcasting of the documentary."


The dateline on that story was June 18, 2001, not June 18, 1983. What was the BBC saying at the time I was watching the reports I mentioned in Canada? What were the London newspapers reporting at the time I was reading the newspaper articles I mentioned in Canada? My guess is they were saying pretty much the same thing as what I was watching and reading AT THE TIME.

Here's the BBC again:

"The 1982 massacres of Palestinians at Sabra and Shatila refugee camps claimed the lives of at least 800 civilians, murdered by Lebanese Christian militiamen allied to Israel during its brief occupation of the Lebanese capital, Beirut.
The killings are considered the worst atrocity of Lebanon's 15-year civil war..."


The dateline on that story was January 24, 2002, not January 24, 2003. How are either of these recent news stories representative of the news coverage being issued during the period of which I wrote?

pinky


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1011398 - 10/31/02 08:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

there's no use arguing with him...he makes no sense....product of inbreeding


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1011425 - 10/31/02 08:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Sadly, I am beginning to think you are right. I dunno about the inbreeding part though. Whaddya figger... should I mebbe make a poll to see if it would be a popular move for me to stop responding to his posts? Sorta like the way nugsarenice got frozen out of this forum?

How do I make a poll, anyway? Must research this option....*mumble, mutter*

pinky


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1011875 - 10/31/02 11:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

How are either of these recent news stories representative of the news coverage being issued during the period of which I wrote?

So you have no evidence, just some vague general impression you got that Israel were the good guys. With you being so far right anyway are you sure it wasn't simply a case of wish fullfillment? I have great doubts about your ability to interpret evidence.

Once again, find me a major news media that considers Israel totally innocent about Sabra.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1011936 - 10/31/02 11:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Sadly, I am beginning to think you are right

Surprise surprise. The two right-wingers agree with each other. Inny hadn't heard of the Sabra massacre until two days ago now he's a world expert on it. You can certainly pick your sources of information pink. See, that's kinda why I doubt your interpretation of information - you consider inny a world authority on sabra.

should I mebbe make a poll to see if it would be a popular move for me to stop responding to his posts?

That would be GREAT! Save me time responding to you. To be honest what else is there left for you to do? Every argument you've tried to make has been comprehensivly demolished. I think one last childish gesture at this stage is your best option. Why not just stop replying? The less bandwidth wasted on posts supporting Bush, the NRA and anti-abortion groups the better. I'm sure you could find many NRA far-right fundamentalist sites who would agree with your every word.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #1012177 - 11/01/02 02:24 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Firstly i wont be lobbying anyone as im not as citizen of your fine country. I think your faith in your system of government is admirable if a little naive. How you can say in all seriousness that anyone could succesfully lobby for a change in your governments policy on the middle east is beyond me. It aint gonna happen. There is far too much at stake. The people dont even get to be governend by who they voted for anymore, thats the 50% who do vote anyway. You can lobby all you like but at the end of the day as both your parties are bankrolled by big business it doesnt really matter who gets into power. Dont buy into the illusion of democracy, it is a sham.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #1012300 - 11/01/02 03:56 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

Every argument you've tried to make has been comprehensivly demolished.



Of all the nonsense that you've spewed here, that's the funniest yet. Everyone here who has tried has shown you for the bufoon you are.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1012383 - 11/01/02 05:13 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

he reminds me of nugsarenice sooooooo much....i could say 2+2=4 and he'd say bush and america want to change it to 5...sheeesh


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Edited by Innvertigo (11/01/02 05:13 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1012400 - 11/01/02 05:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

im not being funny but do you ever say anything not related to another poster i.e something on subject and intelligent?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1012410 - 11/01/02 05:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****i.e something on subject and intelligent? ****

yes.............do you ever answer questions asked of you?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (11/01/02 05:53 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1012440 - 11/01/02 06:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If Tony Blair let an army march through london and told them not to hurt anyone and then they slaughtered half of south london - do you think tony would be held accountable?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1012444 - 11/01/02 06:26 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ask away.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1012466 - 11/01/02 06:43 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

you see my posts...read away


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1012605 - 11/01/02 08:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I refer you to my last post on some other thread. Party on dude!

PEACE


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1012625 - 11/01/02 08:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

if you don't want to answer just say so..sheesh


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1012785 - 11/01/02 09:41 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

if you wanna ask me a question ask away. Im at work and havent got time to trawl thru your posts to see what i should be answering - reading them once is enough cheers! and hey lighten up its the weekend! whats your plans?


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1012794 - 11/01/02 09:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Don't worry Gazz,  inny will be here all weekend, making saucy comments about how nasty I am and how all his right-wing buddies are like really cool  :grin:

He's a silly sausage  :laugh:


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1012936 - 11/01/02 10:37 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****Im at work and havent got time to trawl thru your posts ****

TRANSLATION: EH? :grin:


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1016722 - 11/02/02 08:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Wow, this has really taken off. Sharon surrounded the town where the massacre occured, and let the massacre occur. He has been indicted by the Belgians for war crimes. THey gave it up this year because he is untouchable. Invertigo, your comments toward people of differing opinions make me sick, especially your BOMB comment and the inbred comment. Stop watching and believing what you see on Fox News. What would it take for you to strap bombs to yourself and kill people? THink about that and the way Palestinians have been treated by Israel, the US, and the ArAB world. NObody gives a shit abou tthem. THey have no citizenship for any country. They are refugees in their own land, and their only strong leader only makes things worse. Try and see it from their perspective instead of you perspective coming from a comfy living room watching Bill O'Reilly on Fox news. Just realize that they are human too.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1017254 - 11/02/02 11:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Try and see it from their perspective instead of you perspective coming from a comfy living room watching Bill O'Reilly on Fox news

Good post Buddha, but I think inny's mind was closed long ago. Seems to be something about these extreme right-wingers that precludes an open mind. You have to realise that the truth is a threat to these people. Then you can understand why they get so cheeky.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1018082 - 11/03/02 10:01 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****Invertigo, your comments toward people of differing opinions make me sick, especially your BOMB comment and the inbred comment.****

i really don't care about whether or not your feelings are hurt. If you don't like my comments, don't read them (worse has been said to me and i let it roll of my back)

****Stop watching and believing what you see on Fox News.*****

the famous ignorant libbie response "if you don't believe what i'm talking about, you must be watching CNN or FOX"...oh dear you've got me in a tissy.....try to have a REAL opinion before relying on the typical answers to why people don't agree with you.

****What would it take for you to strap bombs to yourself and kill people?*****

I wouldn't because i'm not a coward...(great logic there brain-child)

****THink about that and the way Palestinians have been treated by Israel, the US, and the ArAB world*****

so you justify the HOMOCIDE bombings then....wow, you're making me feel better about my bomb comment...

****NObody gives a shit abou tthem*****

gee i wonder why?...could it be all the bombings of innocent people?

****THey have no citizenship for any country.****

so why is this isreals fault and not the arabs who agree with them? Maybe the countries that invaded isreal shouldn't do that next time?

****They are refugees in their own land, and their only strong leader only makes things worse.****

by bombing people right?

****Try and see it from their perspective instead of you perspective coming from a comfy living room watching Bill O'Reilly on Fox news.*****

my perspective shows the HOMOCIDE bombings...

****Just realize that they are human too.****

I do...so are isreali's...as much as you probably diagree..






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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1020061 - 11/04/02 03:30 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Good points Buddha. It amazes me how the palestinians problems are so under publicisied, UK media is supposedly alot more evenhanded in reporting the conflict as opposed to the american media. If that is the case, i dread to think what sort of progagamda invert is soaking up on a daily basis.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1020107 - 11/04/02 04:24 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****Good points Buddha.****

where? point me to them?

****UK media is supposedly alot more evenhanded in reporting ****

ha ha..now that's comedy

****i dread to think what sort of progagamda invert is soaking up on a daily basis. ****

it's called common sense....something you libbies abhor.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (11/04/02 04:25 AM)


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1020568 - 11/04/02 09:58 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i dread to think what sort of progagamda invert is soaking up on a daily basis.

It doesn't even bear thinking about. Poor inny.


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #1021675 - 11/04/02 04:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Invert try to open your mind just one little bit. How would you feel if people from another place took your state the fuck over, and shoved all you and your family and "people" out to shitty land. What if they seized your home, assets and kicked you the fuck out of Kansas or wherever the fuck you live. Wouldnt you be slightly pissed. Think about how fucked up a situation must be if all you have left to sacrifice is your life-and you feel good about doing it. I dont think it is right to strap bombs to yourself and blow the shit out of innocent people, but it does tell you something about the environment and situation you come from. The Palestinians had their land taken over by people who just suffered from one of the most horrible genocides yet. They were forced out of their land, and abandoned by their neighbors, with the exception of Jordan, and the good old USA. NOt every Palestinian is a rock tossing terrorist. Try to understand that they are human beings that are refugees in theri own land. This is the same thing that Americans did to the INdians. Invert, the more you post on this thread the more you look like a bigoted asshole who assumes everyone else is a close-minded "libbie". I dont classify myself as a "libbie" I detest the republicans and I think democrats have no balls. I just care about people and human rights, which you obviously dont. Lets jsut drop this because you wil not win.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1022210 - 11/04/02 07:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****Invert try to open your mind just one little bit.****

translation: "if you don't agree with me then you're closed minded."

****How would you feel if people from another place took your state the fuck over, and shoved all you and your family and "people" out to shitty land.****

I don't live in a world of what-ifs......you need to ask yourself why the arab countries invaded isreal. When you find that out get back to me, because you libbies seem to skip that part.

****Think about how fucked up a situation must be if all you have left to sacrifice is your life-and you feel good about doing it.****

does not justify the killing of innocent people....

****but it does tell you something about the environment and situation you come from****

you know, all they have to do is make a minute effort and stop the HOMOCIDE bombings and get to the peace table. Isreal agreed to relinquish some of the land (a large portion i might add) and the arabs said no friggin way....

****NOt every Palestinian is a rock tossing terrorist****

I agree, it's too bad the ones that are, are ruining any chance of peace.

****Invert, the more you post on this thread the more you look like a bigoted asshole *****

a couple people calling me a bigotted asshole doesn't bother me. I live in the real world where actions have consequensec and things are what they are. When people such as myself oppose you libbies we are branded nazi's, racists, homophobes, bigots and hate mongers. I believe Pinksharkmark or evolving brought this up..it does nothing but roll of my back. You need to look as to the reasons the palastinians are in this state. Why did the arabs invade Isreal? Just answer that....they did it because they HATE the jewish people for being just that...jews.

****who assumes everyone else is a close-minded "libbie". *****

most libbies are...sorry.

****I dont classify myself as a "libbie" *****

I would classify you as a far-left libbie with socialism tendancies...no offense

****I detest the republicans and I think democrats have no balls.****

As do I, that's why i'm neither....

****I just care about people and human rights, which you obviously dont.****

Your thinking with your feelings and not with your head. You make decisions based on 100% feelings while clouding your mind. I deal with facts. I think a situation through, you feel it. While it sounds nice to say you FEEL things about certain situations, especially in a world full of feminised men, it doesn't rationally solve anything. I care about people greatly, i'd say more than most, however i don't give out free handouts and turn a blind eye when there are facts involved....libbies never let facts get in their way.

****Lets jsut drop this because you wil not win. *****

Win? Is this what you're trying to do? I didn't know this was a game.......you've already lost


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1022740 - 11/04/02 10:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

OH god, i really want to go point by point and debate but neither one of us will ever be satisfied, nor convince the other that they are right, and I just typed a big paper. We should debate another subject so it will be more fun for both of us. Your turn!


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1023380 - 11/05/02 05:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****Your turn! ****

what do you mean MY turn?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1023382 - 11/05/02 05:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think the thing with you is - its all black and white. You seem to think if anyone shows the least bit of sympathy towards the palestinians then they must also agree with all arab beliefs. It is ludicrous really. But you are a good citizen from a programming point of view.

By the way, I know the arabs hate the jews. Im not supporting that standpoint. But the thing is the Israelis have not done much in the last thirty years to try and change that. Also, I think you will find that there is a large portion of the israeli right wing (who are getting more nazi like in their utterings) Who hold exactly the same feelings towards the arabs. (lets not get into a who hated who first, or who hates who the most debate here) You also mention the israelis "generous" offer of returning some of the land which they illegally took. What perecentage exactly did they offer to return of the land they had stolen illegally? How can returning what is not yours be considered generous? remember, international law agrees that it is not theirs. Also, if they are so keen to make peace and return some land and recognise the palestinian state, Why do they continue to expand their settlements? Why has Sharon earmarked 150million in the budget specifically for the settlers, when other elements of the israeli government would rather see this being spent on projects in Israel?

All this crap about liberals = feelings and how you deal in facts! hilarious.

"I don't live in a world of what-ifs......you need to ask yourself why the arab countries invaded isreal. When you find that out get back to me, because you libbies seem to skip that part." - So this is a fact huh? prove it.

"most libbies are...sorry." - prove it.

"you know, all they have to do is make a minute effort and stop the HOMOCIDE bombings and get to the peace table. Isreal agreed to relinquish some of the land (a large portion i might add) and the arabs said no friggin way...." - This isnt close to fact, it is opinion. It is a feeling.

Are you on school holidays at the moment?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1023391 - 11/05/02 05:23 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Thats exactly how I felt last week!


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1023415 - 11/05/02 05:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****I think the thing with you is - its all black and white. ****

only when there are facts involved

****the Israelis have not done much in the last thirty years to try and change that****

that's debatable

***lets not get into a who hated who first, or who hates who the most debate here***

who invaded who then?  Go ahead, you can say it. :smirk:

****You also mention the israelis "generous" offer of returning some of the land which they illegally took*****

it's called spoils of war...you invade and lose, well you lose something.  In this case land. Nothing Ilegal.

****Why do they continue to expand their settlements? ***

because it's their land i suppose...

****All this crap about liberals = feelings and how you deal in facts! hilarious.****

I call it like i see it...

****So this is a fact huh? prove it.****

wow, you missed the whole point, not surprising...the fact is you people skip that portion.

****"most libbies are...sorry." - prove it.****

you must not have anything if this is the only thing you've got....a debate of what if's and selective logic is the libby way..

****Are you on school holidays at the moment? ****

is that a joke?


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1023432 - 11/05/02 06:01 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Talking to you is pointless - Below is your post, minus my comments. There are no facts, only unsubstantiated opinions, and utter rubbish i.e "nothing illegal".
If i have missed a point please explain it to me again. I am more then willing to hear it. Please dont refer me to your earlier posts, explain whatever it is I have missed in a different way so i may understand it.

Your post:

only when there are facts involved
that's debatable
who invaded who then? Go ahead, you can say it.
it's called spoils of war...you invade and lose, well you lose something. In this case land. Nothing Ilegal
because it's their land i suppose...
I call it like i see it...
wow, you missed the whole point, not surprising...the fact is you people skip that portion.
you must not have anything if this is the only thing you've got....a debate of what if's and selective logic is the libby way..
is that a joke?

Sounds quite childlike in places. Thats why I asked if you were on school holidays,



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1023454 - 11/05/02 06:27 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****Talking to you is pointless *****
opinion

****There are no facts,****

then you have brought up why they were first invaded? hmmm must have missed that one (feel free to answer that because it is a FACT that you haven't to date discussed it.

****only unsubstantiated opinions, and utter rubbish i.e "nothing illegal".****

because i don't agree with you? Closed minded libby

******If i have missed a point please explain it to me again. ******

just answer the questions i've asked. I've went point to point on just about every single line from you and the other libbie and you've yet to metion anything other than my character...feel free to answer a question from time to time.

****I am more then willing to hear it. ****

no you're not, the only thing you want to hear is that i agree with you....and i think you'r nothing more then a product of collective thought............

****Please dont refer me to your earlier posts,*****

you mean the ones you've ignored before?

****explain whatever it is I have missed in a different way so i may understand it.*****

ok, Who invaded who and why did they do it?..i'm not expecting a real answer here's my prediction " You bigot it's Isreals fault because they are stronger and the palastinians are just poor defensless people"....surprise me.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1023540 - 11/05/02 07:27 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I presume you are talking about 1948. Lets hear what an Israeli has to say about it

"Violence in the Holy Land broke out almost immediately after the UN announced partition on November 29, 1947. Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee's spokesman, had told the UN prior to the partition vote the Arabs would drench "the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood . . . ." ((Sound familiar does it?))

The reason being? The arabs did not agree with the partition. This had previously been their land. It was only in the 1880s that jewish IMMIGRANTS started arriving. Then obviously they began to flood in during and after the second world war. By 1949 though, Israel had already extended the area proposed for them by the UN. Meaning, they were happy to follow UN dictates when it suited them but within 18 months they were already show scant disregard for the UN. Something they have continued to do ever since. Ok, So you like to take it back to the arabs invading the israelis to justify all that follows? You convieniently forget anything prior to that. How convienient, just like you Faschies isnt it?

You keep bleating on about me not answering your questions. I have read back thru the last couple of pages and the questions from you I have found are as follows.

"Gee I wonder why?"
"By bombing people?"
Then a couple of questions about multinational companies. You asked me for examples of comapanies I hate, I dont hate any. I just disagree with their motivations and the way the take advantage of the communities they exist in.
Any more questions you have, please just ask.

"no you're not, the only thing you want to hear is that i agree with you....and i think you'r nothing more then a product of collective thought............" - Id rather be a product of collective thought than a product of a single feverish ego.

Another thing. It is all very well you picking apart posts point by point but you never actually string a few paragraphs of what you believe together in order for us to do the same to you. Funny that, just like you faschies isnt it?



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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1023548 - 11/05/02 07:35 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****Id rather be a product of collective thought than a product of a single feverish ego.*****

then you agree to being socialist?

so?cial?ism Pronunciation Key (ssh-lzm)
n.
1Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
2The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

is this close? My ego hovers around individual rights..i wish you could think the same

****Funny that, just like you faschies isnt it?****

Fachies? ha ha you're stretching now..ha


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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1023554 - 11/05/02 07:40 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Im not talking to you anymore.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1023569 - 11/05/02 07:51 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i'm sure there is something we agree on.....London was ok :grin:


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1024229 - 11/05/02 12:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Gazzbut is right on. Jewish settlers invaded FIRST. Invertigo, what do you think about theFACTS that I originally stated in this post? As for your "turn" i was just giving you a chance to bring up a subject that you would like to begin debate on. I have no friends to debate with because we all agree on things. I have no "enemy" friend to debate with and your views are about as far off from mine as possible, thus making you a good person to debate with. Remember it was the Palestinians who had their land taken first and no recourse was possible except for the surrounding countries to invade. HOw did you ever find this site? I thought people who do drugs tend to be pretty open minded instead of following the administrations lead.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1026433 - 11/05/02 11:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I thought people who do drugs tend to be pretty open minded instead of following the administrations lead.

Me too, surprising how many right-wingers are here. You'd think a good dose of mushrooms would do them some good but it obviously hasn't.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1030235 - 11/06/02 09:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I assure you it is you who are naive of the political system in the USA. Big business is PEOPLE. Corporations are owned by people in the USA. Lobbies are people.

People who live in the USA and feel the way you do are making GRAVE miscaculations based on their own apathy.




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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #1031436 - 11/07/02 04:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"Big business is PEOPLE. Corporations are owned by people in the USA. Lobbies are people."


the PEOPLE you mention are a minority whoose self interest is put way above anything else.

Can you please tell me what you have succesfully lobbiied for? If its that easy i might move over to the US.  :grin:
 


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #1031998 - 11/07/02 09:58 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Big business is PEOPLE

Is that something that came to you in a flash of inspiration one night after too much Bud?

Nazi concentration camp guards were PEOPLE too. Ted Bundy, Jack the Ripper and Adolf Hitler are PEOPLE too.

So fucking what?  :grin:


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #1033432 - 11/07/02 05:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Invert! What do you think of the FACTS that I posted to start this thread? What do you think of the hypocrisy there?


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1035165 - 11/08/02 05:30 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

what about them?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1035316 - 11/08/02 07:08 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

A considered reply there inny! If you dont like the facts just ignore them eh?  :grin: 


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1035581 - 11/08/02 09:19 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm asking what do you want me to discuss.  Hypocrisy in that list at the beginning of this post?  You said it was biased what else do you want me to say?

as a side note, you know i don't dodge confrontation.... not when there's the wacky libbies involved:grin:


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1035637 - 11/08/02 09:41 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well some counter hypocrisy might be good! u know us libbies lap it up! :grin: 


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1035664 - 11/08/02 09:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****Well some counter hypocrisy might be good! u know us libbies lap it up!  ****

are you just trying to amuse me or are you serious?..i mean i'm ammused, but i don't know why.... :smirk:


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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1035785 - 11/08/02 10:35 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I said what do you think about it? Its biased because it doesnt talk about anything constructive Israel has done. It is biased b/c it points out all the BAD things that are TRUE about Israel. How do you feel about the fact that 3 BILLION of our tax dollars go to help a country whose leader has been indicted for war crimes. We might be attacking them in a few years if you look at the pattern. We install horrible people, give them money, when they disobey us we kill them. What about WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. They have as many nukes as FRANCE or BRITAIN.


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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1035847 - 11/08/02 11:01 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****I said what do you think about it? ****

the biased post? not surprised really

****Its biased because it doesnt talk about anything constructive Israel has done. *****

why should i comment on it if you've already said it's biased?

****It is biased b/c it points out all the BAD things that are TRUE about Israel. ****

no, because you said in the beginning that it was biased.....why argue with logic?

****How do you feel about the fact that 3 BILLION of our tax dollars go to help a country whose leader has been indicted for war crimes. *****

I don't like any of our money going to any country.  I don't care if it's isreal or third world nations.

****We might be attacking them in a few years if you look at the pattern****

Would you support this? I personally don't think it will happen, nor will they ever threaten us.  But that's just my opinion.

****We install horrible people, give them money, when they disobey us we kill them. ****

i hope you're not talking about Saddam because we never installed him, however we did support him which was a waste of time an money.  I wouldn't trust any of those countries in the middle east...if isreal acted like the others then it would go for them as well.

***What about WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. ***

what about them?  i've never had a problem with countries having these weapons.  What i mean is, is tah i believe any country can defend itself but once yo show agression towards my, or my allies country, then you're toast. No questions.

****They have as many nukes as FRANCE or BRITAIN. ****

the last i checked they didn't have as many, but even if they do i really don't care....hell they need them more then us because if they didn't have them they would be overrun my the other countries....kind of how this all started eh? :wink:


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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