Home | Community | Message Board


Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals

Jump to first unread post. Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009504 - 10/31/02 06:55 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"name a person on this earth that doesn't have their self interest in mind?
"

Not everyone puts their self interest so far above that of others that people have to suffer.



--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009518 - 10/31/02 07:04 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I normally stay out of the Israel - PLO threads.

However, in this case I must confirm that Innvertigo's source is reporting things correctly. I remember following the reports on the Lebanese situation quite closely at the time it was occurring, because I was living in Ottawa, Canada at the time. Ottawa has quite a large Lebanese population, and I had several Lebanese friends. It was impossible to avoid listening to them -- they were understandably quite passionate about the situation in their "homeland".

Sharon's only involvement in those massacres was to let the Phalangists pass through Israeli lines. An Israeli commission of inquiry ruled that he should have anticipated the possibility of violence by the Phalangists and refused to let them enter the area. He was relieved of his command as punishment.

These events were well-covered by the Canadian (and international) press at that time. Everything I saw on the nightly news from CTV and CBC, everything I read in the Ottawa Citizen and Ottawa Journal, all the articles in Time and Newsweek and MacLean's magazine, everything I heard from my Lebanese friends, fits exactly with what Innvertigo's source reports. The killing was done by Lebanese, not by Israelis. My Lebanese friends were quite proud of it -- they all hated the PLO, and considered Palestinians to be beneath contempt, an attitude virtually universal throughout the Arab world, by the way. This is why there was no protest in the rest of the Arab world -- "What's the problem? It was just a few hundred Palestinian dogs."

I doubt it is possible to access through the web newspaper reports from that long ago, but certainly your local newspapers and libraries have their back issues on micro-fiche. If you really want to expend the effort, you could verify the facts through that method.

Ariel Sharon in my opinion is as much a fanatic as some of the PLO, and I disagree with many of his actions both as a soldier and as a politician, but in the specific case of Sabra and Chatila he (and Israel) was a bit player. The Lebanese were the bad guys, and they have never apologized for their actions. From my personal experience with Lebanese, they never will.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009530 - 10/31/02 07:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****Not everyone puts their self interest so far above that of others that people have to suffer.****

not everyone has the opportunity....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1009532 - 10/31/02 07:19 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Tthats pretty much what I said. He gave the orders and should have anticipated the violence.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009533 - 10/31/02 07:19 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

sharon,bush,heads of multinational companies do though dont they. Or does the devil make them do it??


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009535 - 10/31/02 07:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think the point is Sharon ordered this, Fact - not opinion.

So sorry, but that is not a fact. Sharon did NOT order it. According to one report I read (Ottawa Citizen, maybe? Can't remember now) he originally refused to let the Lebanese through the lines. Eventually, however, he did let them pass. Anyone who knows anything about the Israeli involvement in the Lebanese nightmare is aware that there was constant friction between the Lebanese factions and the Israeli military presence. It is laughable to think that any Lebanese group would take orders from any Israeli officer.

It is possible that a different Israeli general than Sharon would have held firm and refused to let them through. I personally believe it is quite possible that Sharon suspected the Phalangists would go apeshit and had no problem with that scenario -- but the Phalangists were NOT under his command. No Lebanese troops were EVER under Israeli command at any time.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1009666 - 10/31/02 08:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"Eventually, however, he did let them pass." - he gave an order, did he not?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009672 - 10/31/02 09:02 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

***sharon,bush,*****

you'll always hate them no matter what i or anybody eles says (like i said to Rono once. Bush could tell the truth, have all the evidence in the world and you'd still not believe him...

****heads of multinational companies do though dont they. Or does the devil make them do it?? ***

examples would be nice. We all know how bad Enron was because there were criminal acts...what examples do you have?

just because it's a multinational companie doesn't make it evil..or are companies like the red-cross, amnesty intl, etc. bad companies....you sound like you're bitter when people are successful..am i wrong?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009675 - 10/31/02 09:05 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****he gave an order, did he not?****

you're basing your whole stance on that?...weak my man..weak

i like how the libbies ignore what actually started all this hostility...classic libbyism


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009707 - 10/31/02 09:28 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"you'll always hate them no matter what i or anybody eles says (like i said to Rono once. Bush could tell the truth, have all the evidence in the world and you'd still not believe him..."

Wrong.

"examples would be nice. We all know how bad Enron was because there were criminal acts...what examples do you have?"

Examples of multinationals putting their interest above their own workers or the community at large? Thats like saying give me examples of days when the sky was blue.

"just because it's a multinational companie doesn't make it evil..or are companies like the red-cross, amnesty intl, etc. bad companies....you sound like you're bitter when people are successful..am i wrong?"

Please dont patronise me. I know multinationals arent evil by definition. Your perceptions are awry. I also dont have a problem with success. Just with greed and egotism that impinge unneccesarily on others. How many times do I have to say this?

1) Do you think the pursuit of wealth is the highest pursuit of human life?

2) Do you think it is okay to better yourself at the expense of others, when you dont actually need to do this to ensure your pwn survival but it may put theirs at risk?

3) Do you think the world would be improved if people were more willing to share rather than hoard resources?

4)Do you think the current system is possible of acheiving this kind of situation? If yes, please explain how. If no, please explain how.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009709 - 10/31/02 09:30 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"you're basing your whole stance on that?...weak my man..weak"

If sharon had wanted to prevent it he could of. If this is not the case please explain. Dont just give me some (supposed) smartass answer.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1009740 - 10/31/02 09:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Sharon's only involvement in those massacres was to let the Phalangists pass through Israeli lines

You think the israeli's let roaming armies just stroll around? If anyone was walking on that land they were under the direct and complete control of israel. It's like saying the rumanians killed jews so the germans were completely innocent.

And the terrorist history of Israel is goes way back to the forties when they were deliberatly blowing up hotels and killing innocents. Begin led one of the most feared terrorist gangs in history.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1009755 - 10/31/02 09:51 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Everything I saw on the nightly news from CTV and CBC, everything I read in the Ottawa Citizen and Ottawa Journal, all the articles in Time and Newsweek and MacLean's magazine, everything I heard from my Lebanese friends, fits exactly with what Innvertigo's source reports.

Good indicator of how biased the mainstream media is if it all tells the same story as a rabid far right american-israel website.

No-one with any knowledge of what happened in Sabra and chatlia has any doubt about who was responsible. The right-wing Israeli's were proud of it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009766 - 10/31/02 09:54 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****Examples of multinationals putting their interest above their own workers or the community at large? ****

no i meant give me examples of these company's that you hate so we can discuss them....you hate international comanies because they exist. period. I agree that there are some (enron being one ofcourse)

****Please dont patronise me. I know multinationals arent evil by definition. ****

then your words decieve you...

***I also dont have a problem with success. Just with greed and egotism that impinge unneccesarily on others. How many times do I have to say this? ***

you said there should be a cap on success? I'm confused now...or does this only apply to what you, and like minded people like yourself, think success is? Wether you like it or not some people consider their success to be money, you call this greed, i call it none of my business....

****1) Do you think the pursuit of wealth is the highest pursuit of human life?****

me? no..but others may not have the goals that i have...others make money their goal, some do it within the law, others obtain in illegally. Either case it's none of your business what I or others think their pursuit in life is alas: Socialism

****2) Do you think it is okay to better yourself at the expense of others, when you dont actually need to do this to ensure your pwn survival but it may put theirs at risk?****

what context are they bettering themselves? i'll assume you mean corporatly (because you hate them soooo much) i'll say NO WAY. If the other person expects a free ride then fuck em.

****3) Do you think the world would be improved if people were more willing to share rather than hoard resources?****

Not exactly....i don't want to share certain things with my enemies...

****4)Do you think the current system is possible of acheiving this kind of situation? If yes, please explain how. If no, please explain how.****

which system? Europes? Europe is too inept to organize anything....they can't even get the Euro right. But i digress...HOW you ask? Enforce existing laws.



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009794 - 10/31/02 10:05 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

you said there should be a cap on success?

Do you think there should be a cap?

Simple question. If i could become a multi-millionaire by chopping down the Amazon rainforest next year, should I be allowed to?

(btw, whats your definition of success? Do you think the head of Nike sitting on his multi-millions while exploting 10 year old kids as slaves in his factory is a success? Is he a bigger success than Gandhi for example? Who never had a penny to his name?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (10/31/02 10:08 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #1009860 - 10/31/02 10:40 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****If i could become a multi-millionaire by chopping down the Amazon rainforest next year, should I be allowed to? ****

do you own the land? If so the yes (the amazon rain forest is joke argument)

****btw, whats your definition of success? *****

what difference does it make?...others are different from mine, that's their right

****Do you think the head of Nike sitting on his multi-millions while exploting 10 year old kids as slaves in his factory is a success? ****

old argument...take it up with the countries that allow 10 year-olds to work

****Is he a bigger success than Gandhi for example? ****

it depends on what HE thinks is success. If i compare my idea of success and compare them with lets say yours, then yes i am more successful.

BTW: Do you understand individual rights and thought?

****Who never had a penny to his name? ****

his idea of success was different from others. Personally i would say he's a success because his goal was peace.

as a side note: noone takes you serious so why bother?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009873 - 10/31/02 10:50 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

he gave an order, did he not?

The relevant point is, he did not order the Lebanese nationals to massacre the Palestinians in Sabra and Chatila. They did that on their own.

I don't know how old you were at the time these events were actually ocurring, so I do not assume you were following the events on a day-to-day basis as they were reported. I was.

There was massive opposition to the Israeli presence in Lebanon from many (not all, by any means, but quite a few) of the seemingly infinite number of Lebanese factions involved in the clusterfuck that was Lebanon at that time -- so much pressure that Israel eventually said, "Fuck it! We're outta here! You are now free to resume killing each other as you see fit."

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #1009916 - 10/31/02 11:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Good indicator of how biased the mainstream media is if it all tells the same story as a rabid far right american-israel website.

Lordy, lordy, you are not one to let facts get in your way, are you? The "mainstream" media MUST be lying, even as far back as 1982, if it happens to report things that dispute your preconceived worldview, huh?

Note that with the exception of Time and Newseek, all the sources I referred to were Canadian sources. You may not be aware that the CBC television network is run by the Canadian government, not rapacious corporations. In 1982 I was unable to receive BBC or French or Spanish or Swedish news reports on my television. I had no cable TV, CNN didn't exist, and even if I would have bought French and Spanish and Swedish newspapers it would have done me no good, since I couldn't read any of them properly. But I'll bet the BBC and the London newspapers were telling the same story. England had correspondents on the ground in Beirut, too... there were probably more Brit journalists there than Canadians, in fact.

In this particular case, I was getting my information not only from the news media, but also from expatriate Lebanese friends of mine who were in touch with family members still in Lebanon. Their version of events rarely differed much, if at all, from what the media were reporting. They were quite a bit more uncomplimentary in their characterization of the Israelis and the Palestinians, of course, but they never complained that the FACTS of the coverage were inaccurate or even biased, for that matter.

No-one with any knowledge of what happened in Sabra and chatlia has any doubt about who was responsible.

The only ones who had any "real" knowledge were the Phalangists who actually carried out the killings. The rest of us have to rely on the reports of the Israeli inquiry into the incident and the reports of Lebanese to whom that group of Phalangists boasted. Not all of us are fortunate enough to have contact with Alien buddies like yours, Alex, who can tell us exactly when the "mainstream media" is lying and when they are not. Odd how the only time the media lies is when they deliver facts in opposition to your own unshakeable beliefs in what reality should be.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1010134 - 10/31/02 12:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

do you own the land? If so the yes

I didn't even bother reading the rest of your post. This is classic dumbass. If you had a brain you'd be dangerous.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phred]
    #1010163 - 10/31/02 12:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The "mainstream" media MUST be lying

To be honest, probably not. I mistakenly took you at your word. You are lying. If you can find any mainstream media sources that consider Israel blameless for Sabra and Chatila please provide them. I seriously doubt you can. Sharon has been indicted as a war criminal in Belgium and is still under threat of a prosecution from the international court.

Here's the BBC for example:

"A BBC documentary discussing whether Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon could be charged with war crimes has made front page news in Israel

Israel's media summarised the contents of the documentary, broadcast in Britain on Sunday, concluding that most of the programme's interviewees favoured indicting Mr Sharon.

The programme has stirred emotions, and 80% of participants in an online poll by the Israeli daily Maariv have voted that Israel should boycott the BBC following the broadcasting of the documentary.





--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Russia says to defend post-war Iraq oil interests
( 1 2 all )
pattern 2,570 22 03/28/03 02:31 PM
by grib
* Israel v Palestine: who is right?
( 1 2 3 all )
Phalanxx 3,095 50 06/10/03 03:36 PM
by Phalanxx
* Are Jews Who Fled Arab Lands to Israel Refugees, Too? wingnutx 531 0 10/13/03 02:52 PM
by wingnutx
* Why should the US invade Iraq?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
PGF 3,965 73 10/05/02 09:24 AM
by T0aD
* Israel-US Approved Ethnic Cleansing
( 1 2 all )
headphone 4,172 20 09/03/01 08:05 PM
by zetek
* Support US war on IRAQ
( 1 2 all )
LordMorham 4,109 29 09/20/02 09:56 AM
by LordMorham
* The Man Who Would Be King of Iraq RonoS 324 1 03/31/03 06:22 PM
by grib
* History of Iraq - Un-biased info - how bout that? dee_N_ae 7,060 5 03/24/03 04:15 PM
by mntlfngrs

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
12,114 topic views. 1 members, 1 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic ]
Search this thread:
Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2020 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.074 seconds spending 0.012 seconds on 17 queries.