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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #972255 - 10/18/02 12:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

eh?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Registered: 04/22/00
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #973038 - 10/18/02 06:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Invertigo is watching way too much fox news


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Phluck]
    #973463 - 10/18/02 10:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That's an incredibly ignorant way to look at it. I know that's how it looks to a lot of the muslims living in the middle east, but if you're living in the west, you should be intelligent enough to realize that for the western countries, this has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with money.

Yes, the motivation is oil and money. However, it is a transgression against Islam.


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Anonymous

Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Zahid]
    #973707 - 10/19/02 12:05 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I am not ignorant of the past, I am optimistic about the future.



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Anonymous

Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Zahid]
    #973773 - 10/19/02 12:40 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I choose to keep my government seperate from my Religion. It is the only way to have equality and freedom.

I am quite certain that EVERY AMERICAN MUSLIM will agree with my above statement. If they don't, you may want to check their Immigration status.


America did not Partition the Muslim world. We have simply supported which ever side we needed to at any given time to serve our own interests. Ultimately it is the responsibility of Each and every country in the world to CHOOSE whose money you will take.

If Islam is at war with the countries you mentioned, then all Muslim citizens living with in their borders are Enemies of the STATE they live in. Since I know this to be untrue, your statment MUST be FALSE.

It is easy to blame the west, but it is only scapegoating. The arab world has been at eachothers throats, just like the rest of the world. NO DIFFERENCE.

Muslims kill Muslims. Jews Kill Jews. Christians kill christians. non believers kill non believers.

the only solution to all the madness is Self determination without limiting others Self determination.(Civil Rights for individual citizens and the right to self determination for NAtions)

People have to be free first. Then they can choose to enslave themselves in any doctrine they want!!!
I



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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #974124 - 10/19/02 03:19 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

** clap, clap, clap **


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Buddha5254]
    #974915 - 10/19/02 02:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

and you rely on your ignorance....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #975060 - 10/19/02 03:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Most Muslims believe government should not be seperated from state, otherwise you get a society like the west in return. Most Muslims also know that a state ran under pure Islamic Law is a pipe dream because of colonization. This is the clash of civilizations, the Christian West, and the Muslim East (unbelievers in both lands are excluded). One handful of people believe in freedom and deomocracy, the other handful believe in God's Law as the law of the land. In no way is the U.S. and Israel transgressing against Islam for no reason other than that we are all Muslim - the transgression is done not out of loathing for Islam, but greed for the oil in our lands. The Prophet Muhammad (saws) predicted that the Muslim world would be exploited and taken advantage of in the future - right down to the prediction that non-Arabs would stop food from entering Iraq, that the custodians of the Kaa'ba would be corrupt, etc. While traditionally what Bush is doing is viewed nothing more that an "assertive pre-emptiveness against terror", Muslims, from California to Jakarta see it nothing more but a western attempt to have stable control of oil in Muslim lands. Long before the September 11th attacks Bush wanted to do a regime change in Afghanistan - and hence, another puppet regime who bows down to the West. If Bush gets his way with Iraq, there will be another puppet regime in Iraq. The situation gets all the more complicated when infidel troops are stationed on the Peninsula of the Mosque of Ahmad (another name for Prophet Muhammad), and the Mosque of Allah - along with America's unconditional, one-sided, overwhelmingly biased support for the illegal state of Israel. The U.S. has also made a puppet of the Muslim world's only military/nuclear power, Pakistan. And as many Muslims view it, there is an indirect alliance between western nations that ultimately excludes and/or exploits Islam, and Islamic values & interests for oil fields (along with other arrogant agendas) in predominately Islamic lands.

While you may see it differently, the United States, and Israel has transgressed against Islam. That is all I am implying.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #976039 - 10/20/02 01:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It is easy to blame the west, but it is only scapegoating. The arab world has been at eachothers throats, just like the rest of the world. NO DIFFERENCE.

Well I think the US supporting Israel for the last 30 years and blocking every UN resolution saying they should get out of Palestine has a little to do with it. They wouldn't be fighting if Israel gave the Palestinians back some of their land.

It's not a problem that "just happened" - people created it. It can be uncreated.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Zahid]
    #976340 - 10/20/02 03:43 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Go back to the history books. At the PEAK of the Arab(muslim) empire, they had a seperation of church and state. You could worship whatever religion you wanted too!!!

Don't compare an oppressed Muslim to a FREE ONE. Islam only suffers a negative image.

I go to work with muslims. They do not share your view of Islam. Your view sounds more like a anti Muslim view.

Arabs are angry about occupation. They should be!!! It really has nothing to do with Religous freedom, because when they were free last, Jews lived peacefully within their borders. There culture was a collage of many cultures.

Your version of ISLAM is a direct response to a lack of Self determination within a nation with a population that is majority Muslim. It is an OCCUPIED expression of Religion, not a free one!!

Israel cannot be destroyed. All the Arab countries know this. they have tried to make peace with Israel. Israel refuses. It is the responsibility of the West to Force Israel to comply, and return the occupied territories.

Modern day wars are fought over resources and Land, not Religion. Religion is how you motivate troops to go into a war without sufficient power to win.

If it was a holy war buddy, there would be no ISLAM.








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OfflineZahid
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #978185 - 10/20/02 09:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

According to the Law of God, other religions are permitted to exist - Islamic Law forbids the destruction of any Church, Temple, etc. Living under Sharia'h Law is not oppression at all for a Muslim - while a state ran under pure Islamic Law does not exist today, most Muslim regimes are highly conservative (and unfortunately, corrupt). There are many different interpretations of Islam; however I find it premature of you to make any judgement or assumption about any particular Islamic interpretation considering the fact you are a kaffir and an outsider to Islam - alien to the inner workings of the culture and politics of the Islamic faith. Many Western Muslims disagree with Sharia'h Law (even though it is the Law of God) for a number a reasons that conflict with their liberal views. Myself, I am moderate in some areas, conservative in others - to say my interpretation is "anti-Muslim" is highly absurd and offensive. Fortunately, the vast majority of Muslims believe this world is about worshipping God, and creating a just society - not a society that permits what Allah has forbidden in the name of "freedom".


--------------------


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #978871 - 10/21/02 04:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

****They wouldn't be fighting if Israel gave the Palestinians back some of their land.****

ha ha..that's funny :grin:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Zahid]
    #985489 - 10/23/02 12:53 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Offended?

Why should anything I say offend you?

My god is the GOD of choice. Its only LAW is FREE WILL. I choose to worship it's only LAW.

I would say probably everyday I do something that would offend YOUR GOD. Luckily for me, my GOD gave me choice. I do things because I want to. I do things because my GOD lets me.

I choose what offends me, and I tend to avoid it!! I have choice. I have free will.

I live in the west, because I choose to. I like it here, because I choose to.

You adhere to a law that was given to you though a MAN. I adhere to the LAW that was given to me DIRECTLY BY GOD. My GODS LAW demands that I ignore your GODS LAW. My GOD wants to experience the world THROUGH ME. My GOD loves DIVERSITY. My GOD has a great sense of humor.

My god made monkeys that have sex with there own children. My god made porpoise that use GANG RAPE to express there dominance over territory. My god made fish that change sex when they reach a certain size. My god made mosquitoes and flies. My god made fungus that eat other organisms, and other fungus that make me forget how to tell time. My god made alcohol and Marijuana. My god made the clitoris. My god made breasts. My god made everything you can see, smell, touch, hear, and feel. My god made everything under the sun, moon and stars. My god made the sun, moon, and stars. My god made you.

My god gave you the ability to THINK that he gave you rules that you should follow. He did give you rules, but the ones he gave you, you HAVE TO OBEY. You don't have a choice!!!

So take all your religions and worship them. You have that choice, that GOD gave you. But always remember this. GOD gave everyone CHOICE. THIS is the only thing GOD gave to everyone. You even get to choose wether you live or die, right up to the point when you DIE.

May you wind up one day stuck in a CAGE, the only thing left to eat some nice PORK. When this time comes may you realize, that the only thing GOD has really given you is CHOICE. Will you choose to obey the Laws that GOD gave you THROUGH a MAN, or will you obey the LAW that god gave you as a MAN. FREE WILL. I hope you choose to follow those laws that GOD gave you through MAN. There will be one less wacko to overpopulate the world.

Don't confuse Self interest with Self importance. The belief in Religion is the ultimate FUCK YOU to GOD. I wouldn't dare to even GUESS what GOD expected of me. I certainly would not listen to any MAN that told me what GOD expected of ME.

I am to busy living the WAY GOD DESIGNED ME to LIVE. FREE WILL. The RULES are BUILT INTO the DESIGN.

Well moses said GOD said this. Well Jesus said GOD said that. Well the big M said god said this............. and so on and so on and so on and so on. So when is the next Prophet of GOD to come, and what will the new rules be?

GOD is the creator. You are the design. Your interpretation of GOD implies FLAW in it's design. I see no FLAw. I see an infinite number of interconnected pieces making up the pie. That PIE is GOD. My GOD is unexplicable, unreducable, and WAY beyond our one piece of the PIE.

If you need some RULE book to act decently to your fellow pieces, then PLEASE use it. I don't. I don't need you to tell me I am an infidel for respecting the other pieces to the pie.

You call me a Kaffir.

This is your own self importance speaking. You assume I must follow YOUR GODS RULES to believe in GOD, LOVE GOD, WORSHIP GOD. You are the KAFFIR!!

I don't need your gods rules to love my GOD. I love my god in MY way. I love GOD by using the LIFE it granted me, and the FREE WILL it DESIGNED ME TO USE.

This is why I choose AMERICA, the WEST, FREEDOM. Every person is an individual, working interconnectedly with other individuals. WE all see, feel, interpret, and rejoice in GOD in our own ways.

You may need the ROAD MAP to be in AWE of GOD. I don't. GOD built the road map into ME, it was part of IT's DESIGN.

I would say I am more MUSLIM then you could ever be. I KNOW GOD. I LOVE GOD. I express my love for god through my actions.

You express your love for him by following rules, you BEILIEVE to be MANDATED by GOD.

YOU are the KAFFIR. YOU are the unbeilever. You need GOD expressed in terms of MAN. You cannot experience GOD, without experiencing man first. You need GOD spoon fed to you. I DON'T.

All Men are borne PURE, and DIE PURE. It is your necessity to percieve things as good or evil, with god or against god.

Some of the most Devout GOD worshippers are Aetheists. In your BOX, you live in , you could never understand that. They worship the DESIGN, which is in essense, the CREATOR. They worship it with absolute belief.

I don't need to abstain from eating pork to be pure. I don't need to not have sex before marriage to be pure. I am pure now and will be pure when I die.

GOD DOESN"T MAKE MISTAKES. People trying to Categorize GOD, make the mistakes.

Your GOD is just a piece of MINE!!!










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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #986365 - 10/23/02 11:13 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Wow... I like that.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #994769 - 10/26/02 01:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i don't normally read very long posts (a time thing) but yours was worth it...I like it a lot and has described the exact way i feel towards religions in general. I've been trying to justify my escape recently from the catholic religion (like i need explaining) and have always thought the worst thing that has happened to christianity (or any belief in God) is the introduction of religion. Baptist are told not to dance, Catholics are told not to use birthcontrol or eat meat on fridays during lent, Muslims have a certain with us or against us attitude, aethist believe that if you have beliefs you're a fool, and seven day advents(sp) feel the need to go to church on Sat.(don't know much about them).

I'm curious why your post hasn't been responded by the one you replied to?...consider this post a bump


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: ]
    #997014 - 10/27/02 02:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

My God, a religious debate in the political forum! I'm not going to nit-pick at your pantheist/spiritualist/whatever belief of God you have, but nowhere are you (an unbeliever) qualified to make any assumptions of any particular interpretation of a religious text, since--as an unbeliever, you do not have any particular interpretation because you disbelieve. Don't get prissy because a Muslim calls you a kaffir, it's just a word from another language that means "unbeliever". You, are an unbeliever of Islam. So sue me.

Can we stay on topic here? I don't give a damn what you believe in; what I'm concerned about is the society - and the general well-being of a community as a whole; and how the political and religious games are played within each government.


--------------------


Edited by Zahid (10/27/02 02:07 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Zahid]
    #997848 - 10/27/02 07:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I BELIEVE you are extremely closed minded......but that's just what this kaffir BELIEVES...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #998786 - 10/27/02 11:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I BELIEVE you are extremely closed minded

Talk about the pot and the kettle...


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Xlea321]
    #999254 - 10/28/02 05:14 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

you're a libbie...i don't think i need to say more


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting [Re: Innvertigo]
    #999408 - 10/28/02 07:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i've got an idea...do one that lists how the palastinians purposley kill children..that would be a hoot.....

I think you'll find far more palestininan children have died in the last couple of years actually.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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