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OfflineAngry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 1,282
Loc: Galapagos
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
This is Liberation?
    #1447751 - 04/10/03 08:47 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Suicide bombing in Baghdad as city descends into chaos
2 hours, 19 minutes ago

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=1515&ncid=1515&e=1&u=/afp/20030410/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_worldwrap_030410221828

BAGHDAD (AFP) - Baghdad descended into chaos as ministries blazed and looters rampaged and the first suicide bombing since the fall of the Iraqi regime killed one US soldier.

The attack came just a day after the city fell to US troops and Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s regime collapsed, offering evidence that die-hard loyalists were prepared to put up fierce resistance.

A US military source said the suicide attack happened in Saddam City, an impoverished suburb in the north of Baghdad.

Another US soldier was killed and 20 were wounded in a firefight with Saddam loyalists near a Baghdad mosque.

Five ministries were on fire in the center of the occupied city and looters pillaged the German embassy and the French cultural center.

US and Kurdish forces meanwhile seized northern Iraq (news - web sites)'s key oil city of Kirkuk, raising Turkey's concerns of an independence bid by Kurdish fighters, who later said they would leave the town in US hands Friday.

US President George W. Bush (news - web sites) and British Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) made a televised address to the Iraqi people on a new channel named "Towards Freedom," promising that the country's future lay in the hands of Iraqis.

But in Baghdad, where three weeks of bombing to wrest power from Saddam and his regime have shattered communication networks and cut the electricity supply, the message failed to reach its intended audience.

British Defense Secretary Geoff Hoon said that an incipient interim authority was likely to be in place within days in southern Iraq,

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan (news - web sites) said the military campaign had been waged at a heavy toll, urging the United States and Britain to respect international commitments to maintain law and order (news - Y! TV), amid the anarchy on Baghdad's streets.

"When you think of the casualties, both military and civilian, the Iraqis have paid a heavy price for this," he said. "It appears there is no functioning government in Iraq at the moment."

US troops arrived in Kirkuk to replace Iraqi Kurds fighters who had taken control, according US and Turkish officials.

In a repeat of dramatic scenes in Baghdad on Wednesday, Kirkuk residents toppled a statue of Saddam in the central square after a popular uprising which left Kurds in control.

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer (news - web sites) said US-led troops will find the banned weapons of the Iraqi regime.

"We have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction -- that is what this war was about, and is about -- and we have high confidence it will be found," he said.

In his television address to Iraqis, Bush said: "A long era of fear and cruelty is ending... You deserve better than tyranny and corruption and torture chambers. You deserve to live as free people."

His vow was matched by Blair, Washington's steadfast ally in the 22-day war to oust Saddam, saying: "The money from Iraqi oil will be yours to be used to build prosperity for you and your families."
"This Iraq will not be run by Britain, or by the US, or by the UN. It will be run by you, the people of Iraq."

There was still no news of Saddam, and it was unclear what had become of the man who ruled for nearly a quarter of a century using fear and brutal repression.

But a tip that Saddam was hiding in a mosque led to a firefight between marines and Saddam loyalists along the northern banks of the Tigris River.

Shooting at the mosque and at a presidential palace complex led to the death of a marine and the wounding of 20 more.

US combat helicopters came to the aid of the troops and at least five Iraqi civilians were killed, witnesses said.

The battle was a stark reminder that not everyone in Baghdad was pleased to see US troops in the city.

US troops clashed with isolated Iraqi loyalists and Saddam's Fedayeen paramilitary units in various parts of the city.

"Baghdad is still an ugly place. Many parts of the city are either not secured by US forces and in other parts there are paramilitary forces or Republican Guards," Major General Victor Renuart said.

The car bombing that claimed the life of a US soldier also underscored the dangers facing US forces, Army Major General Stanley McChrystal, vice director of operations of the Joint Staff said in Washington.

"This certainly reinforces the danger that will remain," he said.

Dozens of corpses, including those of children, and burnt-out cars littered the streets of the southwestern al-Dora neighborhood, an AFP photographer said.

The fighting broke the calm that had reigned over Baghdad since US troops poured into the capital to scenes of jubilation on Wednesday, three weeks after the launch of the war on March 20.

Crowds no longer afraid to show their feelings for Saddam's regime ransacked deserted villas belonging to his son Uday and Deputy Prime Minister Tareq Aziz.

With Saddam's regime in ruins, the only comment from any of his former loyalists was from the country's UN ambassador Mohammed al-Douri, in contrast to the stream of defiant declarations over the past weeks.

"The game is over," he said Wednesday.

Elsewhere in Iraq, US forces continued to move north towards Tikrit, Saddam's home town, 200 kilometers (125 miles) north of Baghdad, a US military spokesman said.

In the southern city of Basra, largely under British control since Monday, troops struggled to contain looting, killings and petty crime.

At the holy city of Najaf, senior Iraqi Shiite leader Abdul Majid al-Khoei was assassinated, a spokesman for his London-based group told AFP.

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw meanwhile warned Syria against helping what remains of Saddam's regime and urged Damascus to cooperate with US forces in Iraq, after a similar warning by US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Ankara fears Kurdish control of oil fields there could embolden Iraqi Kurds seeking independence and encourage Kurds in Turkey to do the same.

Kurds have allowed oil to flow out of the region and into Turkey, according to press reports.

A member of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan said that about 10,000 of the group's fighters would abandon Kirkuk Friday and leave it in US control.



--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1447759 - 04/10/03 08:50 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

It sounds like the fighting isn't over yet, but we knew that already didn't we?


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/13/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1447761 - 04/10/03 08:51 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)



--------------------


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 1,282
Loc: Galapagos
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1447766 - 04/10/03 08:54 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

It sounds like the fighting isn't over yet, but we knew that already didn't we?



The fighting will never be over. Think of all the different factions that want to sink their teeth into the now "liberated" government. Their intentions are no better than Saddam's.


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1447784 - 04/10/03 08:58 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The fighting will never be over anywhere. It is still going on in the USA and pretty much every country. Life is full of people struggleing for power and riches. It is our very nature.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 1,282
Loc: Galapagos
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1447791 - 04/10/03 09:01 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The fighting will never be over anywhere. It is still going on in the USA and pretty much every country. Life is full of people struggleing for power and riches. It is our very nature.



When fighting is occuring in EVERY country (including ours), doesn't it make more sense to focus on domestic violence?


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1447798 - 04/10/03 09:04 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I knew that was coming. The military CAN NOT do anything about domestic violence. That is the job of the police force. The military can concentrate on one thing and the police on another.
Just because we are doing something over there doesn't mean we are doing nothing here.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 1,282
Loc: Galapagos
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1448130 - 04/10/03 11:05 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Although, doing something over there requires money that could be spent here....


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1448137 - 04/10/03 11:07 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

We don't need more money. We need better management of the current funds. Throwing money at a problem rarely fixes it and often just makes it worse.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1448507 - 04/11/03 01:46 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I wonder if "throwing money at corporations" is ever considered to "rarely fix them"? Somehow I doubt it.

With corporate welfare three times the size of welfare for the poor and getting bigger every year it looks like the rich consider throwing money at themselves to be of great benefit.

Lets try throwing money at other things and see if it works as well.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1448562 - 04/11/03 02:06 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Lets try throwing money at other things and see if it works as well.



It doesn't work. A quick examination of welfare spending from Johnson's 'Great Society' to the present day is ample evidence. Illiteracy is higher, children with only one parent in the home are more numerous and crime is greater among the lower classes than before all the welfare spending. If you subsidize failing businesses, you are subsidizing failure, you are subsidizing bad practices for the management of their enterprises, why should it be any different in other spheres of life? If you are failing at something, the best thing that you can do is change your behavior. Paying for failure is no incentive to alter the behavior.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/13/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Evolving]
    #1448586 - 04/11/03 02:20 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

"It doesn't work. A quick examination of welfare spending from Johnson's 'Great Society' to the present day is ample evidence. Illiteracy is higher, children with only one parent in the home are more numerous and crime is greater among the lower classes than before all the welfare spending. If you subsidize failing businesses, you are subsidizing failure, you are subsidizing bad practices for the management of their enterprises, why should it be any different in other spheres of life? If you are failing at something, the best thing that you can do is change your behavior. Paying for failure is no incentive to alter the behavior. "

Okay, so we can do it for enron, we can do it for airlines.. but we cant do it for humans. The Illiteracy rate and crime rate has nothing to do with the abundance of welfare spending.. it has to do with the lack of profit that the united states government puts back into the care and safety of its people. Which, regardless of what anyone would like to say, the paltry percentage that we spend on the american people is not nearly enough.


--------------------


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1449300 - 04/11/03 11:59 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Okay, so we can do it for enron, we can do it for airlines.. but we cant do it for humans.



Did you even read my post? Emoting over words instead of trying to comprehend them does little to facilitate understanding. No where did I state or imply that. It IS NOT OKAY to do it for Enron or for the airlines, that was part of my point.

Quote:

The Illiteracy rate and crime rate has nothing to do with the abundance of welfare spending.. it has to do with the lack of profit that the united states government puts back into the care and safety of its people.



To me this seems to be a contradiction. You're saying that spending money on social programs (welfare) is not related to illiteracy and crime rates, but then you say it has to do with the lack of profits (amount of spending of confiscated tax money) that the government puts into social programs (care of its people = wellfare, safety has to do mostly with the military and police). Lets put on our thinking caps shall we? BILLLIONS of dollars have been spent on social programs. What do we have, more fathers who don't stick around to raise their children, increased illiteracy, increased teenage pregnancy, increased crime.

Throwing more money after failed programs is a foolish myopic tendency of many leftists. Has it ever occured to you that there's some negative effects which have resulted from generations of welfare, the most obvious being the disintegration of the black family unit?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Evolving]
    #1449323 - 04/11/03 12:07 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

American corporations seem to be doing ok with the biggest welfare program in history.

Why not try giving the corporate welfare budget to the rest of us for a change? Spending it on the environment, education, health. Hell, even spend it on saving the doomed Rwandan gorrillas and the african great ape population before giving it to some fucking useless corporate director.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1449339 - 04/11/03 12:16 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I wonder just how bad it really is there right now...
im sure all teh media is very one-sided, and makes sure to press images of "happy liberated iraqis'"

Why would the american soldiers allow the looting?


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
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Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1449344 - 04/11/03 12:18 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Welfare sucks. People are responsible for thier own fate. Handing them money someone else earned does nothing to improve thier situation.....welll, it imporoves thier situation, but doesn't make them independant, or willing to change behaviour and work.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1449350 - 04/11/03 12:20 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Doesn't look like that "toppling of the Saddam statue" was all it seemed either. Apparantly american tanks had closed off the entire area and there were only 150 iraqis allowed in. Most of whom had been flown there last week from exile as supporters of the new guy america wants in charge. Forgotten where the link was, if it turns up I'll post it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1449357 - 04/11/03 12:22 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

welll, it imporoves thier situation, but doesn't make them independant, or willing to change behaviour and work.

Depends whether you believe Bush when he tells you all people on welfare are scum who need exterminating. I know many men who have worked harder than any of us will ever know for their entire lives get thrown out of work through no fault of their own. To hear vermin like Bush call them "scroungers" is really beneath contempt.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1449389 - 04/11/03 12:38 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Im all for employment insurance, but if you dont end up working, you dont deserve to free-load. In canada here, many people collect numerous checks, or work "under the table" and claim they have no income.

You cannot prevent it from being abused...what about affordable education and stuff like that?! Then its not money, but skills and knowledge for people to help themselves.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1449412 - 04/11/03 12:46 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I'd rather risk 10 freeloaders than one guy who'd worked his entire life be persecuted and forced into slave labour. Or the handicapped be forced into slave labour. Sure it can be abused but so is corporate welfare and for far greater amounts. And you definately never hear Bush say he's going to "crackdown" on corporate welfare.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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