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OfflineEllis Dee
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An American view of Europe
    #1054195 - 11/15/02 12:54 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In the light of questions recently posted on these boards by correspondents from Europe, I thought you might find this analysis interesting...

From United Press International (URL http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20021112-052727-4646r

Walker's World: American view of Europe
By Martin Walker
UPI Chief International Correspondent
Published 11/13/2002 3:00 AM


WASHINGTON, Nov. 13 (UPI) -- "You want to know what I really think of the Europeans?" asked the senior State Department official. "I think they have been wrong on just about every major international issue for the past 20 years."

"They told us they could fix the Bosnian mess all on their own. Wrong."

"They told us the Russians would never accept NATO enlargement. Wrong."

"They told us that the Russians would never accept National Missile Defense. Wrong."

"They told us that if we withdrew from the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty of 1972 the whole structure of international arms control agreements would come crashing down. Wrong."

"They told us that the Kyoto Protocol was a good and worthwhile treaty, more than just cosmetics. Wrong."

"They told us that the European Union's new common security and defense policy would improve the military abilities of the NATO allies in Europe. Wrong."

"These were also the people who were wrong about Ronald Reagan and the Evil Empire, the same 'friends' who helped vote us off the United Nations Human Rights Commission. These are the people who whine about our Farm Bill when they are the world's prime protectionists. They are not just repeatedly wrong; they are also a bunch of hypocrites. So why should we pay attention to a single thing they say?"

The official, a career diplomat who speaks fluent French and likes to vacation in Italy, sat back and took an appreciative sip from his glass of good red wine from Bordeaux.

"One more thing," he added. "Whenever I use the word Europeans, I don't mean the Brits."

It was perhaps the most interesting and informative off-the-record lunch this reporter had attended in some three decades in the news business. The speaker was not a political appointee with a cursory knowledge of international affairs, but a professional and highly experienced Foreign Service officer with a wide range of friends and contacts across Europe.

He is a cultivated and courteous man, but he was angry, in that dangerous way quiet men can be. And the unveiled contempt in his voice and the curl of his lip when he drawled out the word "Europeans" said as much for the depth of his feelings as his bitter rhetoric.

Europeans do not yet get this, the great sea change that has taken place in the American foreign policy establishment. It would be easy to date this from the terrorist attack on 9/11, but it goes back further. I can recall hearing the first faint notes of this leitmotif of American contempt, like the distant hunting call in some Wagnerian opera that foreshadows the musical thunder to come, during the Bosnian crisis in 1993-95.

Perhaps we should have recognized hints of it back in the 1980s, over the sanctions against the Siberian gas pipeline and over 'Star Wars.' Most European diplomats dismissed these arguments at the time as clumsy Reaganism, the embarrassing kinds of excess to be expected from provincial American politicians. Doubtless, they smugly assured one another, Reagan's crudities would soon be tamed by their good friends in the foreign policy establishment: the State Department; the Council on Foreign Relations; and the Op-Ed pages of The New York Times and The Washington Post.

Well, the Europeans may still be able to count on the sympathies and cultural deference of many East Coast journalists, but something has shifted among the diplomats, the think tanks and even many of the academics. At a think-tank meeting last week, when a European diplomat asked rather patronizingly what all these American weapons were actually for, a renowned liberal academic simply quoted Kipling's line about "Making mock of uniforms that guard you while you sleep." And then he turned on his heel and walked away.

America's foreign policy establishment is composed largely of people who seldom pay much attention to military matters, but since the Kosovo war they have come to appreciate the vast disparities between the U.S. armed forces and the rest. It is now widely understood that of all the Europeans, only the British can begin to fight on the same modern battlefield as the hugely expensive and technologically advanced American forces. The rest of the Europeans are so many free riders on the readiness of American taxpayers to spend twice as much as Europeans on what remains the common defense.

That is the background to the NATO summit that opens next week in Prague. It should be a triumphant coda to the grand achievement of the Atlantic Alliance at the end of the Cold War, the fulfillment of the first President George Bush's stirring call to "a Europe whole and free." But unless the Europeans recognize the glitter of contempt in the American eye, and the new resolve that lies behind it, it may become NATO's epilogue.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Edited by Ellis Dee (11/15/02 12:55 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1054650 - 11/15/02 04:47 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Well done Railgun you found a nice piece of biased reporting that doesnt include the views of any Europeans to answer the allegations levelled in the article.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1054760 - 11/15/02 05:50 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Well done Railgun you found a nice piece of un-biased reporting that fortunately doesnt include the views of any Europeans to make excuses for the allegations levelled in the article.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1054865 - 11/15/02 06:39 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Europe's wrong about this and that. They told us Kyoto was good. How can it be good when it means SUVs are bad? They said don't tear up the anti-ballistic missile treaty, we did it anyway. And were gonna pollute as much as we want, and burn as much oil as we want. We'll just take the oil by force if that's what it takes. We spend way more on defence than anyone else, so what can anyone do about it? Nothing. We'll blow up the world if you push us. Liberty or death. Don't tread on me.



--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1054923 - 11/15/02 07:33 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I never saw an article against USA in european media that would be written in such tone. However I don't follow nazi press.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1055685 - 11/15/02 02:25 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

luvdemshrooms, just to clear things up, unbiased does not mean "I agree with everything it says", it means that it gives both sides an equal opportunity to express their opinions. Maybe this will clear things up in the future.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: Phluck]
    #1056177 - 11/15/02 05:06 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The article isn't really about Europe being wrong.

Would you deny the claims though? I know Kyoto was a disaster, we have a new treaty with Russia regarding ballistics, but I don't know how it compares to the old one.

The article is more about the contempt that American diplomats have for Europe. I really don't think it was written by an American. I think it's a fine piece though.


--------------------


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Offlineshogun221
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #1056231 - 11/15/02 05:37 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Hey, I thought we already knew America couldn't possibly be wrong about anything. :tongue: Remember folks, vietnam never happened, there's no such thing as Native Americans, and the Mexico wanted us to take California away from them. Sad really, I don't understand how, after all the acknowledged mistakes we've made in the past, that some people still have to audacity to suggest that everything we're doing now must be right.   


--------------------
"A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. ~FDR"


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: Phluck]
    #1056427 - 11/15/02 06:52 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I'm aware of what unbiased means. Perhaps you're either a very silly person or your sense of humor could use some work.

Maybe this will clear things up for you in the future.

I kind of doubt it though.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: shogun221]
    #1056689 - 11/15/02 09:11 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

You did not deny the claims, and you posted a bunch of irrelevant crap.


--------------------


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1056780 - 11/15/02 10:03 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

when gazzbut said "unbiased"it was sarcasm, when you said "unbiased"you meant it.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1056877 - 11/15/02 10:51 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Reading comprehension weak?

He didn't say unbiased. Go back and read both again.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1057194 - 11/16/02 01:55 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

These were also the people who were wrong about Ronald Reagan and the Evil Empire

And they were right. Anyone who even dreams of defending Ronald Reagan (who armed Saddam and supported so many brutal terrorist organisations he made Bin Laden look like a choirboy) is out of their fucking mind.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: Xlea321]
    #1057223 - 11/16/02 02:11 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

And they were right. Anyone who even dreams of defending Ronald Reagan (who armed Saddam and supported so many brutal terrorist organisations he made Bin Laden look like a choirboy) is out of their fucking mind.




Would you prefer living in a world in which the Soviet Union won the cold war or in which the USA and Europe were nuked?


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1057549 - 11/16/02 04:50 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

No I'd prefer living in a world where instead of funnelling endless billions from poor taxpayers into rich corporations in the name of "defence", it was spent on infrastructure, the environment and improving the quality of life for ordinary people.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: Xlea321]
    #1057557 - 11/16/02 04:59 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

No I'd prefer living in a world where instead of funnelling endless billions from poor taxpayers into rich corporations in the name of "defence", it was spent on infrastructure, the environment and improving the quality of life for ordinary people.



You just claimed to favor funneling billions of dollars from poor tax payers in to socialist utopia programs. That is bold to admit.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1057642 - 11/16/02 06:26 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Oops, oh well. Your still a moron for thinking it isnt biased as it doesnt meet the defintion of un-biased.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1057688 - 11/16/02 07:20 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

"You just claimed to favor funneling billions of dollars from poor tax payers in to socialist utopia programs. That is bold to admit. "

He never said that. Very weak Railgun.

But what would be wrong with that anyway? Your so hung up on words like socialist and utopia that you dismiss anything that you think maybe linked to these words. See how your world is programmed? So now you think it is better to let the government carry on making the richer richer by building weapons of mass destruction? Feeding your countries biggest industry, The defence industry. Although the way your country behaves now I think it should be renamed the Offence industry. So Offence + oil = Big bucks. Saddam = oil + chance to showcase new weaponry = Big bucks. (wmd+liberating iraqis + protecting israel = smokescreen only bought by people with limited intellect)


Somebody has done a nice job on you, cos unless you are an oil baron or part of the ruling elite I dont see how that sort of scenario is going to help you in anyway. Where as spending billions on the environment etc benefits all.

Fairly simple equations.



--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1057722 - 11/16/02 07:54 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

No you would be a moron with poor reading skills. It would seem you missed a post just a few after where I tell Phluck to develop a sense of humor.

Read all the replies before posting you fucking idiot.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: An American view of Europe [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1057935 - 11/16/02 12:39 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think my sense of humour is at fault here. That was a fucking weak ass joke.

luvdem, I've never actually seen you contribute to a debate, you just pop in every once and a while to toss around silly insults.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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